Boards›Player Behavior

Cropping of Replays into short clips as attachment for reports should be a feature

Pendragøn··64 votes·1,757 views

Reports should include the gameplay of the player in question. I think we need a feature where we can crop replays into short clips 10-15 sec long that pinpoint the toxic behavior displayed through the player's actions in game and attach those along with the report that include the chat logs.

The game is evolved to a point where players can just say nothing but troll the game through actions alone that are undetectable through the system. Such as purposely staying in the jg to force your team to lose or just splitting and refusing to group to get your team to lose or take your team mates buffs or afking then coming back after a long period of time and claiming you were lagging...

This would avoid having a huge 40min - 1hr long replay attached with the report that Riot cannot obviously watch due to the volume of reports, and would go straight to the point. Allowing Riot to swiftly view the clip and deduce that the player truly had malicious intent.

Also if chat logs of the entire team were to be included it would show that the team tried to persuade the troll to play appropriately but they ignored the advice.

33 Comments

Athina4 votes

I thought I would just drop in here and say that this is very unlikely to happen. All of the behavior systems are almost fully automated these days, and being able to attach replay clips for reports would not be helpful to a bot that could already see what you sent. As someone else already pointed out, they already have access to the replay and much more than we could see ourselves.

However, I do see how this could be very useful in edge cases where manual reviews are deemed necessary. For various types of trolling in particular, the systems are still not perfect in detecting them. Clips like these could dramatically shorten these manual reviews since no one has to watch entire replays for the reported behavior. Although, it is important to keep in mind that these cases are so rare that it's probably not worth the effort of implementing it.

Pendragøn5 votes

{quoted}

I thought I would just drop in here and say that this is very unlikely to happen. All of the behavior systems are almost fully automated these days, and being able to attach replay clips for reports would not be helpful to a bot that could already see what you sent. As someone else already pointed out, they already have access to the replay and much more than we could see ourselves.

However, I do see how this could be very useful in edge cases where manual reviews are deemed necessary. For various types of trolling in particular, the systems are still not perfect in detecting them. Clips like these could dramatically shorten these manual reviews since no one has to watch entire replays for the reported behavior. Although, it is important to keep in mind that these cases are so rare that it's probably not worth the effort of implementing it.

They could get volunteers to look at the replays and escalate reports which the volunteers deem as toxic which can then be forwarded to Riot employees to make the final call. This would reduce the sheer volume of reports they would manually have to deal with

I have spoken to a riot employee once and he did state they review all bans and so regardless if the system is automated they have to still review reports and this would help identifying the people that troll and not get caught.

They have access to all that I understand but they don't sit there and review hour long games for every report

These cases aren't rare...I see trolls like these very often in ranked. Especially in lower elo (bronze/silver) where the MAJORITY of the ranked distribution lies.

Athina2 votes

Not gonna lie, your post did get me thinking about the old Tribunal and how they could reimplement to focus on trolling as opposed to verbal toxicity. The system that handles the chat does an alright job already, but troll-like behavior could use some work; this could - in theory - help in that area as well as potentially satisfy the need some people have for the Tribunal to return.

To clarify one of your points though, they don't review all bans (to my knowledge). Maybe they look at some permanent suspensions, but even then, that's a lot of work to put into checking a system that they know is correct more than 99% of the time. I know they did check the first several hundred manually back when they first deployed the current version of the Instant Feedback System, but they mostly let it do its own thing these days and manually review when a support ticket is made.

And to clarify one of mine as well, when I said edge cases I meant when someone is getting reported many times per game but the system doesn't see anything wrong at all, similar to that smite-support Nunu a while back. Those cases definitely need manual review in some capacity.

Kei1433 votes

They already have access to all the replays, including click locations, click speed, what keys and when they were pressed.

So those attachments aren't necessary for reviewing trolling games.

Pendragøn14 votes

{quoted}

They already have access to all the replays, including click locations, click speed, what keys and when they were pressed.

So those attachments aren't necessary for reviewing trolling games.

But...They aren't gonna review 1 hour long games to find a needle in a hay stack.

DrCyanide7 votes

I think a timestamp would accomplish the same thing, without the overhead of attaching anything and without wasting the reporter's time trying to line up the perfect shot.

Pendragøn4 votes

{quoted}

I think a timestamp would accomplish the same thing, without the overhead of attaching anything and without wasting the reporter's time trying to line up the perfect shot.

That's a good idea as well. Players can review the replay themselves then mark down the time slot where the player in question is seen to show malicious intent and then include that time slot with the report

AirKingNeo1 votes

People would need to remember.

DrCyanide1 votes

That or have a faster way to skim the timeline. Even narrowing it down to a minute window (reasonably doable with kills/towers/dragons on the Match History timeline) could be enough.

TwitchInMyPants2 votes

You can do this if you need to send it to support, since there's an option for attachments there. In-game though it's unlikely to happen.

Taeyang731 votes

I hear that Riot won't do that because then they'd actually have to review the clips, and they would rather continue letting an automated computer 'learn' what it thinks toxicity is, and just throw out massive 'blanket bans'.

More bans = more numbers for riot to report to it's sheople = more pats on the back that they are "succeeding" in the war on toxicity and trolls.

Something we all know to be false, but if you know anything about the real world then you know it's all about making your boss(es) THINK you're doing a great job...manipulating stats, being jicky, etc...not necessarily about ACTUALLY doing a good job ;)

Pendragøn1 votes

{quoted}

I hear that Riot won't do that because then they'd actually have to review the clips, and they would rather continue letting an automated computer 'learn' what it thinks toxicity is, and just throw out massive 'blanket bans'.

More bans = more numbers for riot to report to it's sheople = more pats on the back that they are "succeeding" in the war on toxicity and trolls.

Something we all know to be false, but if you know anything about the real world then you know it's all about making your boss(es) THINK you're doing a great job...manipulating stats, being jicky, etc...not necessarily about ACTUALLY doing a good job ;)

I agree with you. That's why I want to hear Riot's thoughts on this subject matter...

HalcyonDweller2 votes

Now tour, if you look overhead, you can see a patient with a severely developed case of pessimism. Years of feeling ignored, disrespected, and entitled to perfection can sometimes result in such a mannerisms. kappa

Riot is doing their best dude. Or close to it anyway. It's a very complicated problem with a lot of risks involved, such as the possibility of banning innocent players. How would you feel if they increased the sensitivity of the ban-bot and you were wrongfully banned? Upset? And rightly so. Riot is not willing to take that risk with your account.

Additionally, at the end of the day, they are a business with limited resources. They cannot afford to hire enough people to review every game that gets played in a single day. Systems of manual review for every game are too thorough, and would result in a pileup of reports needing review that just kept growing faster than they could dig it out.

Taeyang731 votes

Oh they CAN, but like all of the other greedy corporations that have been ruining this country for decades all that matters to them is their profit margins.

Ever notice how you used to be able to watch Vods with VERY little advertisements? One small banner at the beginning, maybe an OCCASIONAL video?

Now you are forced to watch 15-30 second clips before EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

Sell outs

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

Oh they CAN, but like all of the other greedy corporations that have been ruining this country for decades all that matters to them is their profit margins.

Then why is it exactly, that Riot has made decisions that lost or cost them money in order to better the game? They've implemented plenty of cool features... They offered champions for sale for IP (Xayah and Rakan), and invested lots of money into improving their servers and infrastructure to make the game more stable and fun to play.

Ever notice how you used to be able to watch Vods with VERY little advertisements? One small banner at the beginning, maybe an OCCASIONAL video?

Now you are forced to watch 15-30 second clips before EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

Sell outs

Please explain to me how Riot is responsible for advertising across American television.

I'm seeing posts from you that are all claim and no evidence. If you wish to convince me of these things then please provide the evidence and reasoning to back your claims up.

Pendragøn1 votes

{quoted}

Now tour, if you look overhead, you can see a patient with a severely developed case of pessimism. Years of feeling ignored, disrespected, and entitled to perfection can sometimes result in such a mannerisms. kappa

Riot is doing their best dude. Or close to it anyway. It's a very complicated problem with a lot of risks involved, such as the possibility of banning innocent players. How would you feel if they increased the sensitivity of the ban-bot and you were wrongfully banned? Upset? And rightly so. Riot is not willing to take that risk with your account.

Additionally, at the end of the day, they are a business with limited resources. They cannot afford to hire enough people to review every game that gets played in a single day. Systems of manual review for every game are too thorough, and would result in a pileup of reports needing review that just kept growing faster than they could dig it out.

How exactly would obvious trolling that is seen through clips and chat log ban "innocent" players?

If the system even bans these "innocent" players they can require the player to go through "teamwork" tutorials in order to improve their game play before entering ranked games as their "first" offense. If the person completes these tutorials and continues to display toxic/malicious behavior then the second penalty should be a 14 day ban. This would insure that "innocent" players are not penalized too harshly yet still capturing the players who clearly are consistently showing actions of malicious intent.

If they cannot hire people to do the job because of "limited resources" then take volunteers. I'm sure there are PLENTY of people ready to review trolls and deliver swift justice to them.

They were hiring "volunteer" moderators for the boards and even did a whole hiring process for that. Yet they can't do the same for the ban system?

And the volunteers need not have the authority to ban accounts (since they are just volunteers and may ban innocent accounts) they can just be there as quality assurance. Which means the volunteers can review the clips/reports and then if they feel that the person is held accountable they can ESCALATE it to someone who is actually a hired Riot employee. This reduces the volume of reports that the ACTUAL employees have to assess AND does not cost anything since it would be volunteers having the first screening. By the time the second screening takes place the employees would have much less of reports to handle not to mention if they were initially escalated to the Riot employees by the volunteers then there would already be some indication of malicious intent..

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

How exactly would obvious trolling that is seen through clips and chat log ban "innocent" players?

If they cannot hire people to do the job because of "limited resources" then take volunteers. I'm sure there are PLENTY of people ready to review trolls and deliver swift justice to them.

They were hiring "volunteer" moderators for the boards and even did a whole hiring process for that. Yet they can't do the same for the ban system?

And the volunteers need not have the authority to ban accounts (since they are just volunteers and may ban innocent accounts) they can just be there as quality assurance. Which means the volunteers can review the clips/reports and then if they feel that the person is held accountable they can ESCALATE it to someone who is actually a hired Riot employee. This reduces the volume of reports that the ACTUAL employees have to assess AND does not cost anything since it would be volunteers having the first screening. By the time the second screening takes place the employees would have much less of reports to handle not to mention if they were initially escalated to the Riot employees by the volunteers then there would already be some indication of malicious intent..

Using volunteers was attempted already with the implementation of the Tribunal. The problem was that there were not enough volunteers to cover the growing player-base and growing pile of reports that needed reviewing.

Maybe they would have a larger draw now if they integrated it with the new client. But we will never know unless they try. And implementing features in the new client takes time and software developers, both of which Riot may already be using on cooler, more important features that will bring more joy to the playerbase than mere justice.

Pendragøn1 votes

{quoted}

Using volunteers was attempted already with the implementation of the Tribunal. The problem was that there were not enough volunteers to cover the growing player-base and growing pile of reports that needed reviewing.

Maybe they would have a larger draw now if they integrated it with the new client. But we will never know unless they try. And implementing features in the new client takes time and software developers, both of which Riot may already be using on cooler, more important features that will bring more joy to the playerbase than mere justice.

Justice DOES bring joy to the player base. If players see Riot proactively taking steps to reduce toxicity EFFECTIVELY (And no I do not mean useless honor initiatives) then it would raise the morale of the players, not to mention statistically the games would have less of these players and thus players will be more joyous because they will be able to play more balanced games and have better win rates.

I mean every person I talk to says LoL is the most toxic game they play and do not enjoy playing it. So naturally if Riot takes serious steps to address this issue, it would be a win for the community.

No one said that it would take a couple seconds to implement. The point is whether or not they should implement it, and clearly the pros outweigh the cons.

Also even if there weren't enough volunteers to cover the reports it would still act as another step for the screening process which would still better the game.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

"Justice DOES bring joy to the player base."

This is true, but which is better:

  1. Having a negative experience, then taking revenge on someone for being negative.

  2. Never having the negative experience in the first place.

Riot HAS been taking steps. That is what the new honor system is for. It offers players incentives for being positive, and for avoiding punishment.

This is actually a concept of behavioral psychology. You have a situation where the player has two conflicting behaviors that cannot physically occur at the same time: being toxic, and being neutral/positive. You incentivize the behavior you want while punishing the one you do not. Then the player is much more likely to choose the behavior that holds a positive outcome for them.

In League's case, the incentive is honor rewards, and the punishment is the automatic reform system, with chat restrictions, bans, and all that jazz.

Rainfall1 votes

those would only be usefull for intentional feeding,you have to troll like 20 games in a row to get banned for trolling.

Pendragøn3 votes

{quoted}

those would only be usefull for intentional feeding,you have to troll like 20 games in a row to get banned for trolling.

There is plenty of ways to troll without feeding and that's the point of having the replay attached.

Rainfall3 votes

riot mostly only bans trolls for intentional feeding.and even then only on extreme cases.

YerroFever1 votes

I think it's a great idea to add replay clips to reports, however, three things come to mind:

  1. Current policy I have no idea how they review current games to find trolls and inters and what not. It's really easy to spot people who build 6 dorans or 6 tears for trolling. What isn't easy to spot is someone intentionally feeding and intentionally going into bad engages or purposefully abandoning teammates to mask their trolling without watching the replay.

I don't know for sure how they detect it but I know that at least they look at basically everything you can see in the game stats and chat logs.

  1. Resources If they don't already review replays, do they have the resources to do it? Not just money, but time and people.

  2. Cost benefit If they don't already review replays, how many more people will they catch in the time it takes to review the replays vs how many people will they lose while taking the time to watch the reviews.

I personally would love to see more in depth reviews of player behavior because it would weed out more toxic players faster, however, is it efficient to do so? I would need more information on the process and metrics to give a more informed opinion.

Psybicilin1 votes

The only problem I see with this is that some players are just bad and don't understand why something they did is considered trolling. There's a fine line between something like intentionally feeding and fighting the enemy and losing. When I first started playing, I racked up insane death counts because I didn't understand that the enemy was stronger because they killed me. When I started playing bard I messed up a lot with my ult in a way that would appear to be intentionally assisting the other team, but I was just inexperienced on the champion. The system you suggest could possibly get newbies banned because players sent in clips of them "trolling."

YerroFever1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=g047OoEn,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2016-12-13T21:40:30.541+0000)

Give me a link to match history where you intentionally fed/trolled?

I watched your replays, and didn't really see anything besides 'poor play'.

I'm curious to see where the gaps in detection were.

It looks like Rioters do review replays in certain instances. I don't know if they do it in every instance, but at least Tantram has said he's reviewed someone's replays.

LXII1 votes

This leaves a lot of things open to the interpretation of the person reviewing. Maybe that guy power farming jungle while you all feed is really just trying to amass enough gold to carry. The guy that "won't group" might know that grouping is a stupid idea since you won't win that particular matchup 5v5 and you just don't know that. The Teemo that took red buff instead of giving to the AD might (and sometimes actually will) believe that they'll put it to better use.

We all know Riot's employees aren't all great players, so first they would need an elite team that understands the game and choices made at all stages. Then they would still need to watch a good portion of the game to see if these choices had merit.

Now the obvious ones like some guy dancing in fountain and only stopping long enough to avoid AFK detection would be pretty easily dealt with, but the other 99% of "trolls" would still need a thorough investigation. This is why they really don't ban for these things and usually leave it to AFK and Int feeders. Those are a hell of a lot easier to prove and less open to interpretation.

Mösentristana1 votes

The idea is nice, on the other hand, this would lead to a high amount of clips where someone said "something" or did something minor. For example, I have "been reported" for not joining a suicide party or in the same game, by teleporting back, browsing the store for the item to buy and then my bobs engaged and died. "Report Bard". So you want to have footage of said "trolling" because my screen was being blocked by the shop (which can't be seen in the replays) or because I scrolled up to watch the toplane plays because I saw on the minimap the jungler just walked across a ward of ours and I used smartpings instead of checking what my other fiesta clowns do meanwhile?

Sorry, nope. In Germany, dashcams are (still) not used for random police reports, because every honking, flipping a bird, not indicating, slight speeding, "something that might be a phone" in someone's hand etc. etc. would land in the inbox of the police department, surely hundred MP4s a day, and the sender would want a result sooner or later, literally flooding the police with unnecessary data. Only when shit hit the fan already, then there's the dashcam footage allowed - in court. I think it can be projected on LoL and their (few) manual audit members for reports as well. When the case has been escalated, they look into reviews anyways.

Oriyoki1 votes

you can add files to your support tickets, through which you can report as well.

Mcsquzzy1 votes

i wish i could look at chat when replaying the game, all i see is pings and killstreaks

COBRA C0MM4NDER1 votes

Try that overwolf program, I did and it flooded a directory with clips.

then I deleted em. no use unless I need em for a report (quite handy to have video proof)

Ichibiri1 votes

When is this gonna be added in?

Ichibiri1 votes

Add thiss already

Ichibiri1 votes

implement this already

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