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Super long discussion i had with someone on reddit about the merit of using 'Loss as a punishment'

gabzpiano·10/25/2018, 1:06:11 AM·1 votes·2,012 views

r/LivestreamFail - Hanshinshin gets a 14 day suspension after going 0-19 with viktor top

Because in a competitive environment, the loss is the punishment. This should work well for things that increase your team's chances of losing like inting/afk'ing. I know it's a super long discussion, and we get a little bogged down with nitpicking at some points as well as repeating ourselves, but i think it has a pretty constructive ending where i win the debate. Maybe i'm wrong, but if so, i really wanna know how i'm wrong. And if you can't tell me how i'm wrong, then please don't dismiss me like it's obvious i'm wrong. I do believe Korea already uses this system, or something much closer to it.

EDIT: looking again at how long that discussion is, perhaps i should try to make a summary of it with all the best points made on both sides. But oof, i'm a little lazy for that right now. I think i'll just make a new post here in a few days with a good summary.

27 Comments

ModThe Djinn10/25/2018, 1:48:12 AM3 votes

Using a loss as a punishment is not sufficient. The loss affects everyone on the team equally, including players who are fully innocent of any wrongdoing. This applies to all behaviors that affect the outcome of a game, from inting to trolling to AFK-ing to toxicity. The whole point of the punishment system is to put a personal cost to poor behavior, not just a team-cost. There are players out there who are happy to take a loss -- even in a competitive team -- to spite another player, and making just the loss into the punishment gives these players full power to troll and harass with impunity.

zoliking10/25/2018, 2:04:57 AM3 votes

Holy, shit, I don't believe I'm doing, this, but I'mma agree with The Djinn on something... Yeah, you can't punish 5 people for something 1 person does. The very point is that the inter causes the loss for the team, and therefore needs to be punished for that. Saying that succeeding in bad behavior is somehow its own punishment is ludicrous.

disregardable10/25/2018, 1:23:09 AM2 votes

Maybe i'm wrong, but if so i really know how i'm wrong.

You're wrong in that it's Riot's game, and their goal is to make money. They have concluded that they make less money when people throw the game, because the game is less fun and people quit.

gabzpiano10/25/2018, 2:49:59 AM1 votes

Ok if you went further in that discussion with him, we clarified i meant sense of agency and free of consequence... His argument was just nitpicking, in my opinion. Just as yours is.

gabzpiano10/25/2018, 3:13:49 AM1 votes

Would you argue, then, that giving one player a sense of agency free of consequence is worth sacrificing the agency of everyone else on his team to have their say in whether or not to give up a game?

I strongly disagree that another player inting me is taking away any of my freedoms (nobody was entitled to a victory in champ select). Especially when i'm allowed to afk.

In effect, should one player, on their own, have the ability to make the decision that the entire team should now lose and suffer no consequences other than the shared loss?

Even if a player is hellbent on losing(which is super rare), it's possible 4 people could carry them. But yes. Let's say i'm in a ranked game, i'm ok with my teammates having the right to shoot themselves in the foot to hurt me. They're just in 1 of my games. They're the ones with an attitude problem.

If your argument is that people have the right to a good/fun game of league of legends which is less about winning/losing, i'll point you to everything i said about normal games.