What happens in REAL sports when a player is toxic?

KORGtuners·Oct 6, 2016·4 votes·2,911 views

http://www.espn.com/30for30/film?page=ihatechristianlaettner

^Watch this documentary. I saw it on Netflix.

Spoiler alert. No one was banned.

~29:40 "I'm sorry if people think sports is like this goody-goody, touchy-feely, you know, like we're sitting in church. It's not. It's competiveness. It's intensity. It's passion. It's people getting in each others face."

~31:14 "Christian had a way of getting under your skin. And ,I mean, that thought might have crossed my mind a couple of times, of bouncing Christian's head on the floor." -Bobby Hurley

~37:25 "When I got up from the pile, the first person that jumped into my arms and hugged me and said that they loved me was Bobby Hurley."

108 Comments

DynikusOct 6, 201610 votes

they do get punished, actually. The form of toxicity just isn't the same when it's a physical sport as opposed to e-sports. You can get penalized in football for unnecessary roughness, taunting, or excessive celebration as a few examples.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/09/antonio-brown-twerk-touchdown-steelers-redskins-nfl This was grounds for a 15 yard penalty and $9000 fine.

KORGtunersOct 6, 20161 votes

They "can" get punished or "do" get punished?

DynikusOct 6, 20165 votes

you're not guaranteed to get punished for being toxic in league either.

KORGtunersOct 6, 20161 votes

So why punish one and not all?

DynikusOct 6, 20164 votes

Because they can't catch everyone.

KORGtunersOct 6, 20161 votes

Of course they can. Everything you say in league is logged in a chat. Now if you want to argue there are other forms of toxic behavior than chat, I will concede. However, does not mean they can't enforce all chat toxicity.

DynikusOct 6, 20164 votes

They don't have a large enough staff dedicated to looking at chat logs to punish every single toxic player. They have an automated system in place that catches a decent amount, but they're never going to catch everything.

KORGtunersOct 6, 20161 votes

No. No. You don't get it. There is no "staff". It is all automated. Trigger the chat filter = ban. Simple as programing. It does not work this way currently.

There also is no automated system in place that catches a decent amount. Everything is based on player reports. If no one was reported for toxic language, no one would ever get banned for toxic language.

LaserDeathBladeOct 6, 20168 votes

No that's not how it works at all...

The context of language is near impossible for chat filters to pick up, it makes no sense to make automated bans for chat especially since you are allowed to curse in league.

KORGtunersOct 6, 20161 votes

"Reports are significant on a per-game basis because no one is punished on game data alone. So if there are no reports in a given game, the system assumes no one had a bad time, and there’s no reason to consider punishing a player. This means that if you play with a negative player and don’t report them, they won’t receive a punishment and likely won’t reform."

Sorry to burst your bubble. But this is exactly how things work.

DrCyanideOct 7, 20164 votes

Yes, but hitting the report button doesn't mean someone's instantly going to get punished.

Riot's said it before: other than racist/homophobic comments, there's no magical list of words to get you banned. "I ****ed that up" is ignored by the system, while "**** you, you suck" gets noticed. It's not the words, it's how they're used. You can look up Natural Language Processing (NLP) if you want more info on how the tech works, Riot's just meshed that with Machine Learning for their system.

KORGtunersOct 7, 20161 votes

No one said they would get instantly punished. (Even though you say it is possible.)

I said hypothetically. Riot could automatically punish all toxic chat. In response to someone else saying it was impossible for Riot to catch everyone because of lack of manpower.

DrCyanideOct 7, 20162 votes

The Machine Learning part means that there will need to be human interaction, otherwise you don't get a training to base the decisions from. It's trying to learn what we think isn't appropriate for us as a community, not what some arbitrary group of Rioters thinks isn't appropriate.

TrulyBlandOct 7, 20162 votes

Yes, and then they also would have a huge amount of false positives, where people are banned despite literally not a single person being offended by their actions.

Obviously it's possible to punish all toxic players... all you'd have to do is literally punish every single player every single game that is played. But that's ultimately not the point people are making: Riot cannot punish all toxic chat unless they are also willing to punish innocents on a greater scale. Increasing the sensitivity of the system is almost impossible without also decreasing specificity.

ModUlanopoOct 6, 20168 votes

I was watching the Lions game week 3 and someone got a 15-yard unsportsmanlike conduct for simply using a throat-slitting gesture. Whassername from the women's Olympic soccer team got a six-moth suspension for saying the opposing team played "like cowards." I could go on and on with examples, but the truth is that professional sports do take toxicity VERY seriously.

KORGtunersOct 6, 20161 votes

It is not toxic to run as fast as you can at someone, then hit them with the intent of knocking them to the ground? Point is, SOME toxicity is taken seriously.

ModUlanopoOct 6, 20163 votes

{quoted}

It is not toxic to run as fast as you can at someone, then hit them with the intent of knocking them to the ground?

Given that it's an expected part of the game, no.

Point is, SOME toxicity is taken seriously.

Absolutely. That's exactly my point.

KORGtunersOct 6, 20161 votes

I never said toxicity is not taken seriously in sports. Nor did I say it was never punished. What you are missing, is that toxic is arbitrary. Some outside person has to come in and define what is or is not toxic.

Also, to a lesser extent, I was showing that toxic people can actually excel in a competitive environment.

To a greater extent, I was also showing that forgiveness can lead to greatness. But no one wants to read into that part. (Hint: if instead of smiling after being stomped in the stomach, that player got up and started a fight; then both players would have been ejected and the game winning shot would not have happened.)

ModUlanopoOct 7, 20164 votes

{quoted}

I never said toxicity is not taken seriously in sports. Nor did I say it was never punished. What you are missing, is that toxic is arbitrary. Some outside person has to come in and define what is or is not toxic.

Toxicity isn't arbitrary. It's created and maintained by culture.

The disconnect between professional sports and toxicity is that the business of sports has to accommodate many cultures.

Also, to a lesser extent, I was showing that toxic people can actually excel in a competitive environment.

I don't think you made the argument that their toxicity is what makes them excel. Phil Jackson talks a lot about playing a controlled, precise game. My old football coach used to preach discipline and repetition. I will point out that one of the craziest mofos in the world - Dennis Rodman - was rarely out of control on the court.

To a greater extent, I was also showing that forgiveness can lead to greatness. But no one wants to read into that part. (Hint: if instead of smiling after being stomped in the stomach, that player got up and started a fight; then both players would have been ejected and the game winning shot would not have happened.)

You're arguing Riot's point: It is never okay to add to toxicity. That's why we tell people to IGNORE, REPORT AND MOVE ON.

You're confusing not retaliating with tolerating toxic behavior.

KORGtunersOct 7, 20161 votes

Toxicity is arbitrary. So is culture. Look at the "N" word. Some people will use it as a term of endearment. Some will use it as hate speech.

I can't prove their toxicity is what makes them excel. I can prove forgiveness of their toxicity made them excel.

NO. I am not arguing Riots point. My point is IGNORE and MOVE ON. REPORT is actually a retaliation. By simply IGNORE you are tolerating the behavior. As soon as you move to REPORT, you are retaliating.

ModUlanopoOct 7, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Toxicity is arbitrary. So is culture. Look at the "N" word. Some people will use it as a term of endearment. Some will use it as hate speech.

And yet all those uses are deliberate. Just because you don't understand why something is toxic or don't agree that it's toxic doesn't make it random.

I can't prove their toxicity is what makes them excel. I can prove forgiveness of their toxicity made them excel.

Please, by all means proceed.

NO. I am not arguing Riots point. My point is IGNORE and MOVE ON. REPORT is actually a retaliation. By simply IGNORE you are tolerating the behavior. As soon as you move to REPORT, you are retaliating.

By that logic, I should be able to take all your stuff and burn your house down because calling the cops would prevent you from being "great".

KORGtunersOct 7, 20161 votes

Their use is deliberate. The intent is random to everyone outside the user. It is random by nature. You can not know the intent of a word unless you are the one using the word. Example: If I were to call you a "jjjnne"; you have no clue what I mean. You have to randomly attach a meaning. Now for a more common word, it is still random from the perspective of the outsider. The outsider did not live the users life. They have no clue the circumstances that lead to the definition of the word. Therefore, from the outsiders perspective, the common word is indeed arbitrary. Even the entirety of a word is arbitrary. Why does the letter "Y" sound the way it does? Someone arbitrarily made it so.

I will lean on your last quote to answer the second quote. If I were to call the cops on you, you would indeed be prohibited from achieving "greatness in league of legends". Why? You would be in jail. You can not play league of legends in jail. If I were to forgive you for taking all my stuff and burning my house down, you can still play league of legends. Therefore, you still have the opportunity to be "great at league of legends".

I wonder if you mistyped. Calling the cops does not prohibit "my" ability to be great. It prohibits "your" ability to be great.

EDIT: Thinking about it some more. The use of words doesn't have to even be deliberate. How does one decide which curse word to use when one stubs their toe?

ModUlanopoOct 7, 20164 votes

{quoted}

I wonder if you mistyped. Calling the cops does not prohibit "my" ability to be great. It prohibits "your" ability to be great.

Nope. You calling the cops is the equivalent of reporting me, which you define as retaliation. I hope you have a nice couch. I need a new one. :)

ModWulf HelhammerOct 6, 20165 votes

In an actual game? They get one of the largest penalties in the game. And in soccer you can get kicked out of the match

KORGtunersOct 6, 20162 votes

Key word there is "can". As in, not guaranteed.

ModWulf HelhammerOct 6, 20163 votes

....and your point is?

KORGtunersOct 6, 20162 votes

People have different tolerances. People have different motivators. What you view as toxic can be peachy to another person.

ModWulf HelhammerOct 6, 20163 votes

Ok....still what is your point?

You and I don't make the rules, Riot does. You follow them or face the consequences

KORGtunersOct 6, 20161 votes

If Riot is making the rules and enforcing the rules, then why do other players have to report?

Riot can simply parse the chat files and instant ban as soon as someone uses a naughty word.

But that doesn't happen. The only time toxic people get banned is if another player (not Riot) reports.

ModWulf HelhammerOct 6, 20164 votes

Because Riot doesn't have the manpower to comb through the millions of games everyday?

That's like saying why don't the police instantly know when a crime happens

ZombiemasterOct 6, 20162 votes

I mean, i guess they could, but Riot is more about punishing consistent toxic behavior. Yes, there will be some cases where someone was punished for just one or two games, but a large majority of the time players are punished when they show consistent toxic behavior across multiple games. That's why they don't instantly punish someone who shows the slightest bit of toxicity.

KORGtunersOct 6, 20161 votes

Do you have proof?

From my experience, Riot only punishes people that get reported.

A person can consistently show toxic behavior, as long as they are not reported; they will not be punished.

ZombiemasterOct 6, 20162 votes

Okay, sure, if players aren't reported, then yes, more than likely they will not be punished. There are some behaviors that are punished even without reports, but that's a different topic altogether.

Riot wants us to have some power in deciding what is and isn't acceptable in this community, which is why they want us to report what we believe is unacceptable. If someone is showing consistent toxic behavior and not being reported, then it's very likely that the players in their games don't find their behavior to be toxic and are okay with it, and because of this, Riot won't punish them. However, if they truly are showing consistent toxic behavior, I'd find it very difficult to believe that they wouldn't be reported in at least a few games, as a large majority of the community has the same idea as to what should be punished.

KORGtunersOct 6, 20161 votes

Ah yes. Mob mentality. Whoever gets the most upvotes must be correct.

EDIT: I would like to add. What if the toxic player is consistently playing in a premade? They can theoretically be as toxic as they want (towards their own team). A solo player does not get the same liberties. So we have a situation were 2 people can behave the same and only 1 will be punished.

ZombiemasterOct 7, 20162 votes

If a toxic player only plays with a full premade, everyone in that premade is okay with their behavior, and they don't take it into /all chat, then yeah, it's very likely they won't be punished because they aren't really causing a negative experience for anyone. They are keeping their toxic behavior contained within their friends, who are 100% okay with it, and not exposing the toxicity to anyone who may not be okay with it.

On the other hand, a solo player can't really do this because they are always going to be playing with others who could very well not be okay with toxic behavior.

KORGtunersOct 7, 20161 votes

Now how does the solo player intuitively understand what is ok and what is toxic to a complete stranger?

Follow up question. If an offensive player apologizes (but are still reported) will Riot excuse the offense?

ZombiemasterOct 7, 20163 votes

They can't reliably be able to tell what is toxic to a complete stranger. This is why Riot has the Summoner's Code, which basically boils down to "Don't be a jerk." I know it's vague, and that's intentional. Riot does have the final say in bans, but as I said before, they still want to give us some power in deciding if something is acceptable or not.

Now, if you want to say something but are unsure if it would be acceptable, then ask yourself, is it absolutely necessary for the current game? Can it easily be construed as you simply being a jerk? If no/yes, then don't say it in chat. If you are still unsure after asking yourself those questions, then it's likely best to not say it.

Follow up question. If an offensive player apologizes (but are still reported) will Riot excuse the offense?

While I can't be 100% sure, I'm fairly certain that Riot would not excuse the offense. If the player apologizes but still gets reported, then whoever reported them still didn't find their behavior acceptable.

ZombiemasterOct 7, 20163 votes

Well, I mean, there are plenty of things you can say that won't get you punished. Stuff like "GL HF" or politely trying to suggest a play for your team to make, such as "i think would should do dragon now" or "i feel like we should push mid." All of this is completely acceptable to say and will never get you punished. If you keep what you're saying polite, then you will have no problems not getting punished.

However, if you feel that not talking at all is the best solution for you not to be punished, then feel free to do that.

ZombiemasterOct 7, 20163 votes

I have played this game since season 1 and have used chat a lot in a large majority of my games, and I have yet to see a single punishment. There are many others who also use chat a lot and have never seen a punishment. If you still have doubts, though, then there's not much else I can do or say.

LaserDeathBladeOct 6, 20164 votes

There's a difference between competitive showmanship and toxicity, and toxicity absolutely does get punished in real sports.

What's considered toxic varies on the sport, but it's especially strict for League because it's difficult to pick up the difference between 'competitive banter' and toxicity over a chat box so most of the time everything is just considered toxic.

KORGtunersOct 7, 20161 votes

I never said toxicity never gets punished in real sports.

Imagine we took the opposite approach. Instead of everything being considered toxic. Everything is considered non toxic.

KORGtunersOct 8, 20161 votes

Why can't we give love that one more chance Why can't we give love give love give love give love give love give love give love give love give love 'Cause love's such an old fashioned word And love dares you to care for The people on the edge of the Night And love dares you to change our way of Caring about ourselves This is our last dance This is our last dance This is ourselves Under pressure

Nik NikersonOct 9, 20161 votes

Are you gonna take me home tonight? Ah down beside that red firelight Are you gonna let it all hang out? Fat bottomed girls You make the rockin' world go round

ModPrandineOct 6, 20163 votes

From Ulanopo's Knowledge Base:

Trash talk is part of all competitive sports. It happens all the time in the pros.

Yes and no. Yes, trash talk occurs, but it has definite limits. Most of the things that are punished in game (racial, ethnic and homophobic slurs, sexism, etc.) would also earn you a hefty fine in professional sports.

A Tumblr List of NBA Fines (http://nbafines.tumblr.com/) (My personal favorite on that site is this indefinite suspension (http://nbafines.tumblr.com/post/1010368028/3-12-96-the-nba-suspended-mahmoud-abdul-rauf-den), simply for refusing to stand during the National Anthem.)

A List of NFL Fines for Taunting (http://www.spotrac.com/fines-tracker/nfl/all-years/fines/taunting/)

NBC Article on Fines Agreed to by the NFLPA (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/01/bizarrely-specific-nfl-fines-come-from-agreed-league-union-schedule/) "Excessive profanity or other unsportsmanlike conduct triggers a minimum fine of $10,500."

NHL Office of Player Safety (http://www.nhl.com/ice/eventhome.htm?location=/playersafety) Brendan Shanahan is the ****ing Bad Santa of the NHL. Did you know that his Office of Player Safety watches every minute of every game, from multiple angles? He sees and hears EVERYTHING, including swearing.

... and the grand finale! Marge Schott (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marge_Schott), who was forced out of ownership of the Cincinnati Reds for racist comments and pro-Nazi sentiments.

Desolas ArteriusOct 6, 20162 votes

Upvote for having them sweet, sweet sources~

StephenizgodOct 6, 20161 votes

Your point?

KORGtunersOct 6, 20162 votes

Just one?

Hmmmmm

Some people have the capability to forgive. (The player that was stomped in the chest, smiled. Did not retaliate at all)

ModUlanopoOct 6, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Just one?

Hmmmmm

Some people have the capability to forgive. (The player that was stomped in the chest, smiled. Did not retaliate at all)

It isn't a question of forgiveness or strength. If someone's yakking on their phone in a movie theater, it's okay to ask for them to be removed. Same thing with someone smoking in a restaurant. That same principle applies in League.

KORGtunersOct 6, 20161 votes

In what way is it ok?

For you personally right?

Obviously the talker and the smoker don't feel it is ok.

I got a chuckle out of your post. I know someone whom is allergic to cigarette smoke. She doesn't go around asking people to get kicked out of places she goes. She instead, avoids the smoke as best she can. Also, a friend of mine was yelled at for talking during a movie once. She was not kicked out. nor did she stop talking.

ModUlanopoOct 6, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I got a chuckle out of your post. I know someone whom is allergic to cigarette smoke. She doesn't go around asking people to get kicked out of places she goes. She instead, avoids the smoke as best she can. Also, a friend of mine was yelled at for talking during a movie once. She was not kicked out. nor did she stop talking.

Anecdotes are not argument.

Your thesis is that toxicity is tolerated in professional sports. The vast majority of the time, that isn't the case.