Boards›Player Behavior

Why don't I get the "never surrender" guys in the winnable matches?

StairCasexd··50 votes·4,144 views

I've noticed now that when a match is a garanteed loss, I have people who won't surrender.
Like sometime ago, it's 21-3 (everyone lost Lane and the jungler is far behind) , the enemy team took most of our towers and the midlane inhibitor is exposed, they have a fed Vayne who's just insta bursting everyone, our team comp sucks with the only real hard CC we have is a soraka root. Somebody casts a surrender vote and the yi and our jungler spend the whole match saying "noooo just defend and farm, we have a twitch so we'll win late game". Only took 20 more minutes for the match to drag on to 41-5 until the yi and jungle realize the match is lost.

And then there's this scenario, the match is 21-22, we took down more towers and have stronger map control, we have a decent comp.

Its part of the reason I dislike having bot premades they will always hold you hostage, our bot Lane twitch and blitz can both be 0/6 with a 12/0 Vayne at 150 CS while our twitch is still at 36 and all other lanes except top lost and they'll be like "nooooo but I'm twitch pls trust me, we win late game", they can have a top Lane urgot so fed while our team is so behind that we couldn't even 4v1 urgot (and that's NOT a made up scenario, that actually happened in one of my matches about a week after his rework came out).

But when the match is even, 4/5 of the team surrenders.

And yes I know big comebacks are a thing, but you're not going to make this big comeback when your whole team is pure damage with no reliable cc (because solo Q) and when you don't even have the items to get the heavy damage. Unless the other team just starts doing dumb things or purposly throw the match.

But I only play normals, I imagine that people would use the surrender thing properly in maybe gold+

72 Comments

EkyonKun20 votes

But I only play normals, I imagine that people would use the surrender thing properly in maybe gold+

Hahahahahaha no. Unfortunate as it is, even in platinum elo (6-7% of the highest ranked players or something like that) you still get people who want to ff, despite their team being 18-7 while they're 0/3 or something. Saying stuff like "GG this game is over" non-ironically. I rarely, RARELY get intentional feeders, but I'm sure I've lost numerous games to this kind of negative attitude. Also people rarely surrender no matter how bleak things are. On the flip side, I've won a few random matches from an absolutely out of nowhere surrender by the enemy team while we were both even. Why? I have no idea. Trust me, things never get better. If anything, I think people become even less rational.

Tannhäuser Gate2 votes

The funniest wins I have had were when we were getting decently stomped, then we win one teamfight and the enemy surrenders while still being pretty ahead.

Zarvanis2 votes

From what I've heard and seen from people in Diamond, Diamond V is the most vile cesspool of salt and rage in all of League.

Karfuss17 votes

Meanwhale, I just never surrender.

You lose 100% of the matches you forfeit. You don't lose 100% of the matches you play.

DeerGreenwood17 votes

Please, do the entire playerbase a favor and stop wasting 40 minutes of our time.

Karfuss19 votes

40 minutes of your time wasted, is 40 minutes of my time too.

As I said, you lose 100% of the matches you forfeit. Fact. Have some faith once in a while. I've had games where we're down all turrets, and the enemy team had no idea how to end, so we clawed it back. We all have.

High ELO and LCS never surrender for that reason. Why should you? I for one, will not be pressured into a quitter mentality.

Firethorn1 votes

Are you even allowed to surrender in LCS?

Karfuss3 votes

Probably not. Although the players, for a fact, do not.

They still keep up the fight, and don't surrender in any of their practice matches. You don't see any of them AFKing on fountain.

NiceTryVi14 votes

Surrendering in LCS is not banned, but it is heavily frowned upon because it is like conceding a game of baseball or football even if you're down 5 runs or 40 points. They realize they aren't going to win, but people payed to see the full game, and sponsors expect to see their brand on the field for the full game too. It isn't a matter of persevering, it is a matter of money.

And just so you know, a huge amount of teams ff in practice matches when they realize the game is too far gone because they want to do another where they can get in a favorable position. They value their time. You apparently do not.

Karfuss4 votes

{quoted} And just so you know, a huge amount of teams ff in practice matches when they realize the game is too far gone because they want to do another where they can get in a favorable position. They value their time. You apparently do not.

Counter intuitive and nonsensical. You don't learn from mistakes if you forfeit the game because it isn't going your way 15 minutes in and want a 'more favourable position.'

Source?

NiceTryVi2 votes

Lol ok buddy, I am sure you know better than LCS players. And as for a source, find literally any video where pro players talk about scrims.

Karfuss3 votes

Not a source.

DrCyanide2 votes

And just so you know, a huge amount of teams ff in practice matches when they realize the game is too far gone because they want to do another where they can get in a favorable position. They value their time. You apparently do not.

They surrender to spend more time practicing with their scrim team, not climbing. Normals is your scrims, surrender there.

NiceTryVi3 votes

Except for if you know a game is lost, why bother? My team is down 2-20 at 15 minutes, there is no winning that.

LordGeovanni4 votes

except being down 2-7 or 2-20 has almost no diffrence because you stop giving enemies meaninful gold after your 3rd consecutive death. and every come back mechanic is in your favor gold exp etc.

AetherKingdom1 votes

Now that's what I call bronze game sense.

LordGeovanni1 votes

had to look that up smart guy.

AetherKingdom1 votes

Don't really need to look up bad, I know it when i see it

Ysayle3 votes

The problem is NOT "will we win the game ultimately", in the end. Sure, maybe we will.

The problem is that sitting for 45 minutes in a game that is 90% lost is PAINFUL. Of course, if we surrendered every times the game didn't go our way, we wouldn't win a lot. But when the game is honest to goodness almost entirely lost, why go through the pain of spending easily 25 minutes losing, knowing you pretty much can't do anything about it?

Mindworm Jim3 votes

It certainly sucks to sit through a game where you feel completely helpless, but if the game is truly unwinnable I feel like it wouldn't take the enemy almost half an hour to actually close the game out. (unless they're deliberately not destroying the nexus in which case yes surrender is appropriate)

Karfuss2 votes

You're absolutely correct. If it is taking them 30 minutes to end a game, it is by no means a stomp.

Problem is that in Low ELO, people do not know how to end games. Another, is that people do not know how to claw back from that position, hence threads like this.

Kloqdq1 votes

I mean you get people that just do stupid shit or are hunting down one guy on repeat because people are assholes. Sometimes people with a lead dick around and choose to drag games out HARD. That is why throws happen and teams come back.

Other times you just have wave clear and that's the only reason you can hold on.

LordGeovanni2 votes

actually in season 5 lcs players were surrendering a good amount of games not 3 months later 70-80% of my games ended with one side or the other surrendering. idk if im cursed or what. I stopped checking for lcs almost completely that year

SnyperWulff1 votes

Your not wrong, had a Kled and Jhin who began to purposefully feed cause three of us refused to surrender even with two inhibs lost. The Kled was being an ass because i didnt rush up to blue buff with most of the enemy team bearing down towards it as Syndra.

Somehow myself, Jax and Lux managed to hold off a baron buff/elder dragon buffed team. Then the Kled and Jhin got their heads on semi straight and pushed top while the rest of us occupied mid, broke their inhib and eventually their nexus towers.

After about 45 minutes Jax said screw it and back doored their nexus while we kept their attention.

Bańg1 votes

{quoted}

40 minutes of your time wasted, is 40 minutes of my time too.

As I said, you lose 100% of the matches you forfeit. Fact. Have some faith once in a while. I've had games where we're down all turrets, and the enemy team had no idea how to end, so we clawed it back. We all have.

High ELO and LCS never surrender for that reason. Why should you? I for one, will not be pressured into a quitter mentality.

LOLLL. High Elo games are almost always surrendered by 20-25 minutes. Please don't talk on things u don't know shit about.

Back when open Mid was a thing I was getting 8 minute wins and losses for a week straight. I demoted off a 0-0-0 8 minute game and then won the next game when the enemy team gave up due to each lane dying ONCE.

It's 10x harder to come back in d3+ then it is anywhere else

StopBltching2 votes

{quoted}

40 minutes of your time wasted, is 40 minutes of my time too.

As I said, you lose 100% of the matches you forfeit. Fact. Have some faith once in a while. I've had games where we're down all turrets, and the enemy team had no idea how to end, so we clawed it back. We all have.

High ELO and LCS never surrender for that reason. Why should you? I for one, will not be pressured into a quitter mentality.

wtf r u talking about High elo never surrenders? theres plenty of fucking PROs who have surrender on stream all the fucking time lol. so that never surrender mentality is full of shit

LordGeovanni2 votes

you can do that yourself by not queing.

Starcraft243ver1 votes

No ?

I've ended up winning games with 3 inibs down and no tower vs one tower taken from the ennemy. I've won a game which started 1 - 22 I've lost a game where we had 15k more gold.

BeatinWarDrumz6 votes

Let's put it this way:

Let's say when you are down 21-3, you have a 2% chance of winning. If you gain 20 LP per win, and lose 20 LP per loss, that means the expected value of not surrendering is .02 times 40, or .8 LP. That is for an additional , let's say, 15 minutes of play. If an average match is 30 minutes and you gain/lose 20 LP, 15 minutes costs you 1/2 the expected value of winning a match. So, as long as the expected value of winning a match is over 1.6 LP, you should surrender. The expected value of winning a match is (winrate-.5) times 40. When we cruch the numbers, as long as your winrate is over 54% it is efficient to surrender that game from an LP perspective.

So, you're wrong

thefance1 votes

Upvoted for effort. But the math wasn't set up correctly.

// incorrect EV E(no_ff) != P(victory) (gain - loss) E(no_ff) != (.02) (20 - -20) E(no_ff) != .8

// correct EV E(no_ff) = P(victory) gain + P(defeat) loss E(no_ff) = (.02)(20) + (.98)(-20) E(no_ff) = -19.2

Also. The decision to forfeit is a question of whether 15 minutes is worth the relative cost of forfeit. Which is subjective since time and LP are different dimensions.

// relative cost of forfeit E(ff) - E(no_ff) = (-20) - (-19.2) E(ff) - E(no_ff) = -.8

BeatinWarDrumz1 votes

Uhhh... that was what I said, just abridged.

Danjeng9 votes

I don't like surrendering, though I do it from time to time if my whole team does not enjoy the game. But as long as one other person is still playing, I will not surrender.

When I click no to surrender, I am not trying to hold my team hostage. I am not trying to troll. I realize that chances of winning are slim, but I always legitimately believe that there is a chance to win.

Even so, in the face of imminent defeat, I do not like giving up. I do get disappointed if I lose a game, but I become even more upset if I know I didn't even try. I don't just play to win. I play to my best and I enjoy it. The very concept of trying to push my limits.

I think that this perseverance is the core of a good player, regardless of rank or skill. To give your all every game regardless of the odds. Being respectful is good too.

Sraeg20134 votes

A situation I came upon yesterday.

Top is doing good, but it's Garen. Jungle is Nidalee and for the most part just sucks. I'm Talon shitting on the enemy Fizz. Leona is decent. And then there's Vayne.

Bot lane died early giving Jhin a double, so Vayne decided to run down bot and mid giving like 8 kills for free, then went AFK, then went bot to die some more.

So we're in a 3,5 vs 5 situation with basically only one stun and nobody wants to surrender. Well, fucking fine. Let's ignore the fact we haven't taken ANY objectives for the whole game for a moment.

I'm going at Jhin at bot knocking at our inner turret, he decided to go mid to join his support and iirc Fizz fighting Nidalee and Leona in a staring contest. Just when I'm about to burst Jhin he support comes in with 10000 shields and I'm like "USE PINGS".

The reaction? "Why rage about this game?"

They don't want to surrender, but don't want to win either.

What's the fucking point?

Aoc Kaosu3 votes

So this happened to me this morning.

10 minutes in, our top lane is down 2 kills and our jungle has now decided that he wants to give up because we've lost.

I'm all for surrendering if you've put in an effort and tried your best and you're just not going to win. It makes sense, I want more games, I want more practice, I feel I can only practice being behind so much and I recognise that not only my teams time but my time is valuable.

What I refuse to do however is surrender just because one person has decided we can't win. Without having put in any effort. I get it, we lost top early. Losing one lane early isn't what costs us the whole game. If you lose one lane early and that turret goes down now you just have a longer lane to play in. This means that in order to keep pushing the enemy has to extend to your next turret. I'm at a fairly low elo, and only playing in normal queue at this point. If the enemy top lane wants to over extend to my inner turret by themselves because they've pushed my top lane back, that gives me as a mid lane or support more opportunity to go gank and help.

What I also refuse to do is surrender just because one person insists on being a jerk. In the instance this morning, when the surrender vote didn't go through, rather than saying okay I'm stuck here a little longer our jungler decided he was going to just roam around the jungle, refuse to help any lane, and ultimately feed the enemy team getting repeatedly caught out. This behaviour is actually worse than sitting afk on the tower. While this was going on he flamed the team for being unwilling to give up, encouraged the enemy team to push objectives and try to end the game faster and did his best to contribute in a negative and punishing way to our team.

It took 40 minutes for the enemy team to accumulate the resources and push to end the game.

While my match history suggests I lost this game I don't view the game as a total loss. While the jungler on my team admitted in chat that he was just watching youtube videos and not helping us, I didn't lose this game. In the only way I knew how, I rebelled against the trolling of that player in a positive and constructive way. I got my A+ rating at the end of the game. I worked towards winning despite overwhelming odds and what is most important to me, I didn't give in to one player trying to use toxicity as a way to punish his team.

I don't suggest anyone else follow in my footsteps but I do hope that eventually people will grow to realise that there is more to this game than a point in the win column. How you interact with others, how you respond to the bullying and toxicity of others is much more important than the win.

Giving up without putting in effort is failure.

Losing in the face of excessive adversity is acceptable provided you give your all to try and succeed. Giving in to bullies and trolls and negativity is the only way we truly lose.

Doodlzzz2 votes

thats cause ur the never surrender guy

AetherKingdom2 votes

Agree. No one needs these people who have to scrape the bottom of the barrel for LP. Not worth staying 20 extra minutes for a 1% chance of gaining a marginal amount of LP in the long run.

DariusDemiurge1 votes

People shouldn't queue for ranked or bother logging on if they ain't willing to play a match out until the very end.

"But muh time wasted" kid you're already playing a video game, shut up.

I really don't get that logic. Of course from what I read nowadays this season is so garbage that you don't need to surrender since majority of games are so lop sided that they end at 20 usually.

leaguewut1 votes

Huh? If it's 20 minutes and the only thing keeping the 20/2 Twitch from ending the game is permanent Viktor lasers taking down waves, a 4/1 surrender vote seems pretty fair in my opinion.

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

I have a personal philosophy on this matter.

For normal matches, the biggest priority is "am I having fun?". If I'm having fun and think we can win, then I'm all good for keeping a game going. But if I'm not having fun for whatever reason- tilt, toxic teammates, oppressive enemy team comp, etc- then I'm not going to want to continue. Because if I'm not having fun in a normal match, then I have no reason to not want to end the match quickly and move on to something more enjoyable, rather than continuing to waste time on something unenjoyable.

For ranked matches, there are actual stakes. There is LP gain and loss, and a desire to climb the ranked ladder. In those situations my biggest priority is trying to win and climb. During ranked, I'm not going to surrender unless I'm super tilted, teammates are exceptionally toxic, or someone is intentionally feeding/afk/something else. Because in ranked there are stakes worth trying to fight to the end for.

StairCasexd2 votes

I play normals, don't plan on touching ranked, ranked is understandable, the match could be your promos from silver 1 to gold or something. In normals, I feel that dragging on pretty clear losses is a terrible experience when your team and yourself deal 0 damage and the opponent kills you with little to no counter play. Sure you could drag on the match but smart enemies aren't going to let you have an easy time trying to get to their level of power.

SkyblazeHydraX32 votes

Like I said, when it comes to normals I have one very simple priority: Am I having fun?

If yes, keep playing. If no, end game and move on.

JarPoop IV1 votes

Personally, I'm one of those guys who only surrender when everyone is legit having a bad time and NOT COMPLAINING about it. If someone super toxic tries to surrender, I wouldnt ever press yes. If they are gonna be toxic to people, I want as much evidence as possible when reporting them. Hell if they are gonna waste 9people's time and get away with a short game.

Also, super unsatisfaying to win surrender games Imo so I'm all up for fighting to the end if there is a chance.

All that is provided it's not ranked tho. Since I personally don't ranked

Lauchmelder2 votes

Same with one difference.

I'll not ff because I prefer having me and 8 other players having a miserable time over 18 and me.

Damage control in a way

revliledpembroke1 votes

I was a laggy Leona on a team that won a 20-1 comeback once. I didn't really want to win at that point (feeling we hadn't earned it and because the ADC was a dick), but that's life.

Remember kids: if you play Leona, and you have heavy lag at the beginning of the game preventing you from doing much at all, always listen to your ADC's advice about diving onto the enemy team, especially if they have a Morg who would guarantee your death with her snare. Don't play safe and try to get levels while not dying, go full LEEROY JENKINS!!!! /sarcasm

Gentleman Jey1 votes

Too much to read.

I gave up after the title.

ImTheSideKick1 votes

ive gone from never surrender to almost never surrender

when its 3 to 33 and I'm 2/0/1 and getting none stopped harassed because my team is pushing and dying , yeah ill /ff

other wise I play to play to play to win

Mizuki Zahra1 votes

we had half hp on nexus and i managed a cruddy penta with fiora i was 5/15 the rest were close to 10 deaths aswell, we stalled them till the 70 min mark cause of hard cc, and baron stealing and that penta got us the victory cause the death timers is what we were waiting for, dem long asss death counters at the 70 min mark lol shoved mid and a second ace then bam so it is possible to win just gotta communicate

bloodybadger11 votes

41-5 from a 21-3. yikes.

lolbannedmymain11 votes

they need to just get rid of the surrender button and leaver buster and let people leave if they want too. ps im specifically speaking for non ranked matches obviously in competitive play that wouldnt be fair for the other players but in normals or aram players shouldnt be held hostage in a match they are not having fun in when the match isnt for a ranking and is supposed to be for fun

FioraWillCarry1 votes

Dude ranked is worse. Yea there are those guys in norms but I generally find people to be more willing to surrender shit games in normals. NEVER in ranked. Game could be 34-5 and guys in ranked would not fuckin surrender it.

More from Player Behavior

The indefinite banning of Tyler1
Player Behavior4,799 comments
2,942
votes
14 day ban because playing Nunu Support with Smite is "stealing other people's roles"...?
Player Behavior1,525 comments
1,086
votes
Riot should add monthly status cards
Player Behavior241 comments
843
votes
Reminder that we haven't gotten our Summoner report cards yet :/
Player Behavior145 comments
619
votes
I'm not "triggered" by you throwing insults.
Player Behavior361 comments
548
votes
Black Alistar, King Rammus!!!!
Player Behavior462 comments
503
votes

More by StairCasexd

Why is lissandra not seen more often?
Gameplay49 comments
20
votes
Please stop putting level 10s in our games
Gameplay10 comments
20
votes
We should get missions that give IP.
Concepts & Creations4 comments
9
votes
Sivir is a balanced adc.
Gameplay4 comments
6
votes
Why do people say zed is weak?
Gameplay12 comments
4
votes
People flame me for starting Dorans sheild on Katarina/akali
Player Behavior5 comments
3
votes