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Discussing permanently banned accounts and the stigma surrounding their appeals

Hotarµ·3/2/2019, 9:47:31 PM·24 votes·12,337 views

Hey everyone!

[poppy-wink] Real quick, before I start:

##Please, keep it civil. I understand that permanent bans are a very controversial topic with the majority believing that three chances is more than enough for someone to reform and correct their actions. I share this sentiment although I often think about appeals and the stigma surrounding them, so I'd like to discuss it. I know people will most likely downvote just because of that stigma but I'd really appreciate hearing your opinions and engaging in some conversations.

**Even if it's as simple as "No, people get enough chances as is." I'd love to hear what you have to say. **

With that out of the way: I've always entertained the idea of appealing permanently banned accounts because it's been a staple in almost every game I've played. Also, I'd like to believe that people can always change their behavior for the better.

I'm aware that this a very opinionated outlook and some will have a more cynical view, which is totally fine.

#If there was an ability to appeal permanently banned accounts, how do you think it should be handled?

If I had the ability to implement an appeal system for permanently banned accounts, here's how I'd handle it:

Accounts that have been suspended for hate speech (racism, homophobia, inciting self harm, etc.) are not eligible for this program. This also applies to accounts banned for Scripting (or malicious use of 3rd party programs) and MMR boosting.

"Permanent Ban" tag changed to "Indefinite Suspension" Permanent bans will still exist, but more on that below.

##After receiving your Indefinite Suspension, you will have to make a new account and meet a few requirements before it is lifted.

  • You must connect your new account to the old one by verifying the e-mail address and connecting a new e-mail address or phone number to it.

(This would prevent people from "boosting" indefinite suspensions by forcing them to be hard-locked to the old account. Also, given the extremely long amount of time it would take to lift a permanent suspension, it would be near-impossible to realistically boost this.)

After connecting both accounts:

  • Any punishments on the new account will result in the permanent banning of the indefinitely suspended account. The first punishment on a new account will also be escalated to a 25-game chat restriction immediately.

  • Your newly made account must maintain an Honor level of 3, 4, or 5 for 500+ games.

  • After fulfilling these requirements, you may file for an appeal with a Riot support agent. Here, you may make your case as to why your account should have it's suspension lifted while providing evidence and a personal explanation of your actions.

  • Following the lifting of an indefinite suspension, any punishments made to your account within the next 3 months will result in a permanent suspension. Afterwards, your account may start it's recovery.

My reasoning:

Rather than giving people an extra chance for no reason, this is basically a "1 for 1" trade. You have a 'Hail Mary' chance of recovering your previously suspended account at the risk of permanently losing it and willfully forfeiting one stage of your punishment ladder. So, instead of getting 5 chances for one account and 4 for the new one, you only have 8 in total.

Not that that's anything to laugh at, but it isn't any more lenient on repeat offenders than our current system. If anything, it's more strict because if you fail to appeal your account, you've permanently lost a chance on your new one.

While the Honor system can act as a veil for toxicity (someone who is Honor 5 can still be passive aggressive) having the added step of actually appealing your punishment with a representative would remove this issue entirely. Simply put, if a Rioter deems your logs passive aggressive or not entirely positive, they can deny the appeal. Honor doesn't act as a 'shield' in our current system and shouldn't if any changes were made to it.

Since these appeals take a long time to build up (500+ games and maintaining an Honor level) Riot support wouldn't be overwhelmed with requests or appeals. It's a very reasonable situation for the very few who are willing to go to these lengths to show they've reformed.

#Let me know what you think and thanks for reading my long ass post. :^)

63 Comments

Umbral Regent3/2/2019, 11:52:36 PM4 votes

I have to say, even from a standpoint that's opposed to permanent suspension appeals, I do rather like your idea. It's thought out really well, solid, and the two layers (pre-appeal build-up, then the appeal itself) makes for something of a filter to prevent random Indefinitely Suspended players from just jumping straight to Riot Support to get their punishment appealed.

There are some details I'd be personally curious about - mostly pertaining to how the pre-appeal stuff would be handled (would it be like an automatic application system, would you have to file a Support ticket and get in contact with Riot to start the process, would your progress be visible, at the very least accessible, etc.), but those are extraneous and don't really affect the core of the proposal itself.

I also like the touch of attaching a phone number to the primary(suspended?) account (if I'm reading that right, anyway), as that has a similar effect to the Smurf Solution from Clash - forcing players to attach a phone number to the account to ensure that the one account they're playing with is their primary account.

All told, I'm still primarily against the idea of properly-placed permanent suspensions being appealed (I'm amongst the group who believes the three chances are enough), but, this is definitely an idea I can get behind if Riot ever did reconsider their standpoint on permanent suspensions. It provides an opportunity to show that "day-late, dollar-short" reform while imposing a tangible cost on failure, and it's solid enough that I can't readily think of any major holes or issues.

Kaisa Aran3/2/2019, 10:08:59 PM4 votes

Alright, player with 4 (potentially soon to be 5) bans here. I want to contribute as a potential benefactor of this program but I also want to keep things fair and honest - hence I'm gonna state my two cents as reasonably as I can. Hear me out.

with the majority believing that three chances is more than enough for someone to reform and correct their actions

The majority who haven't ever been punished. Number goes down once people get a taste of how awful leveling from Honor 0/1 is. Just thought I'd correct that.

Also, I'd like to believe that people can always change their behavior for the better.

This is true, most people mature over time or at least get a better world view. At bare minimum you start to see people being better about avoiding doing filter-prone stuff chat wise which can help tone down things, though admittedly not by much. But overall - Yes, most people can. Some can't without extra external help though, and I'm speaking from experience here.

Accounts that have been suspended for hate speech (racism, homophobia, inciting self harm, etc.) are not eligible for this program. This also applies to accounts banned for Scripting (or malicious use of 3rd party programs) and MMR boosting.

So those morons who use Zero Tolerance words and think they'll get away with it as if those aren't high priority in the automated system? Yeah, I'm fine with this - you have to be pretty stupid/reckless to use ZT words like candy and either way if someone is using words like those freely they probably need a good amount of help.

Before people ask, I have been banned for using ZT words before - I never said I wasn't a moron.

After receiving your Indefinite Suspension, you will have to make a new account and meet a few requirements before it is lifted.

This starts to worry me because of how this'll impact the New Player Experience, but I'll hear you out.

You must connect your new account to the old one by verifying the e-mail address and connecting a new e-mail address or phone number to it. (This would prevent people from "boosting" indefinite suspensions by forcing them to be hard-locked to the old account. Also, given the extremely long amount of time it would take to lift a permanent suspension, it would be near-impossible to realistically boost this.)

I'm not fully aware of what you mean by the latter, but it's true that people make new email addresses solely to create new accounts. Tying them back to the original is a good idea since it'll force people to be honest about their origins if they legitimately want their old account back, but some may just not give a shit and level a new one just because getting the old one back wouldn't seem worth it in their eyes since the leveling process will still be the same hard ass grind it can be.

Any punishments on the new account will result in the permanent banning of the indefinitely suspended account. The first punishment on a new account will also be escalated to a 25-game chat restriction immediately.

Understandable.

Your newly made account must maintain an Honor level of 3, 4, or 5 for 500+ games.

And you lost me.

Honor 3/4/5 are no different from Honor 2, let me make that clear. You can be passive agressive as fuck and be Honor 5 because you play a bunch, that doesn't mean you're any better than an Honor 2 player (though the automated system will think otherwise). Forcing people to level up to Honor 3 first and THEN play 500+ games is a huge commitment that, again, no one will bother doing because the leveling up proceedure will already be painful as fuck in the first place and having to play hundreds more games on top of that...honestly I'd rather just create a clean account separated from the old one so I don't risk an escalation to a 25 game chat restrict. You're asking WAY too much here time-investment wise, especially for people who only play a few games a day.

After fulfilling these requirements, you may file for an appeal with a Riot support agent. Here, you may make your case as to why your account should have it's suspension lifted while providing evidence and a personal explanation of your actions.

This is fine, also lets Riot Support double check to see if you haven't been a passive aggressive shit since that's currently very difficult to punish automatically.

Following the lifting of an indefinite suspension, any punishments made to your account within the next 3 months will result in a permanent suspension. Afterwards, your account may start it's recovery.

Too strict, you're already forcing a huge time commitment and you have zero tolerance slapped on for ANOTHER three months? Why would anyone go about this type of process, it's horrificly long and one slipup can cost everything. You'd have to be insanely commited and careful to have a chance, and one outburst would doom things for good.

Since these appeals take a long time to build up (500+ games and maintaining an Honor level) Riot support wouldn't be overwhelmed with requests or appeals.

I don't think you'd be as busy as you're making them out to be, especially since it's true that a small % of players actually get permabanned.

Overall, I disagree with this direction. Your demands for getting an account unbanned are far too high and would take an eternity to complete due to the minimum game requirement & the pointless Honor 3/4/5 requirement. Add this in to the fact that one slipup on the old account within 3 months (and I mean ANY slipup) would result in a permaban and this gets a thumbs down for me, not until it's made more lenient with a better understanding of how insanely painful it can be to level up a new account and how obnoxious it'd feel to be making no progress over hundreds of games, especially if you only play a few games a day.

Rythmatic3/2/2019, 11:20:49 PM3 votes

Pointless as humans will never truely change their behavior over a video game. I've had over 10 accounts perma'd now. I've grown as a human progressing through a career thats now making well over 6 digits, purchased 2 homes and a few cars but still refuse to baby these people who play a video game online. If you make a mistake I'm going to point it out and if they want to thrown down the gauntlet of keyboard warrior I will not back down even an inch. Honestly you guys need to just make 2 different servers. One for the men and one for the kids who play the game cause its cute and not competitive.

Starmfangy3/2/2019, 9:51:34 PM3 votes

But the majority of banned accounts are mostly for harassment or racism! Probably only a few would be eligible for this program.

ModThe Djinn3/2/2019, 10:13:33 PM3 votes

This isn't a bad proposal, but I'd instead suggest locking the unlocked content on their current account (and BE gain) and giving that account one final chance after, say, a month of lock-out as a mandatory time out. That means the new player experience isn't necessarily ruined, and it also further reminds players of how much they could regain if their behavior remains good. It ultimately gets similar effects to this proposal, I think, and potentially saves the new player experience a bit.

Still, I'm not sure I'm fully on board.

Cosmic Khan3/3/2019, 6:41:53 AM2 votes

I would really love the chance to get my old account back, but I don't think Riot is ever going to allow a program like this :(

Jo0o3/2/2019, 10:02:24 PM2 votes

I like your reasoning, though I'm not necessarily in an agreement with it.

Something I'd be interested in getting your take on: I don't have data to back this up, but as far as reform after a perma goes, I'd be more optimistic about somebody burned for hate speech than for repeated verbal abuse. Repeated verbal abuse means they've gone through at least three warnings, often more, to reach a perma. Hate speech can be much faster. I think it's easier for a teenage edgelord to resist the urge to spout slurs in a game than it is for somebody to fix a pervasive habit of toxic chat.

Kei1433/2/2019, 10:15:21 PM2 votes

So ... when they are approved for the appeal, do the accounts merge? What happens to the content of the 2 accounts? The mastery points? The unlocked champions and blue essence? The positional rank and the MMR? The honor level?

I'm assuming all that would have to be manually adjusted. How can we make sure people keep competitive integrity and no corrupt Rioter friend will go in and change the displayed rank of their buddies so they have the diamond icon while having silver MMR?

If they are toxic after the 3 months of getting their account back, then what?

How many chances do they get to appeal? Unbanned, permabanned again, will they get another chance at being unbanned again?

Again, that will most likely be a manual operation. As we already see, there are those that were in the unban experiement, still get punished but fall through the cracks of instantly getting permabanned again (as per their agreement), cos all the monitoring is done manually.

While it may be great for people to get accounts back, would it justify the extra manual labour costs put into this initiative?

It's a fair idea, but there will be alot more questions to be answered if this were to happen. Too bad we don't have any data for the unban experiement.

C0ldbl00ded3/3/2019, 12:36:52 AM2 votes

I've had 1 permaban and a couple chat restrictions, i'd say half of the time i actually earned the punishment given. I didn't throw out any ZT words, I literally told trolls off, used 'fuck' a few times and got perma'd for it. It is what it is. Looking back I should've just kept my mouth shut and let literally my whole team troll and throw the game. Which thinking about it now really is a lose-lose situation for me as in the end i'm the only one who got punished, either by wasting my time in a hopeless 20+ minute game enduring verbal abuse, or by finally telling them to fuck off and receiving a penalty. Fun. To be honest, I gave up caring about the whole system, i'd take it seriously if the rules were applied equally to everyone but it really doesn't seem to be the case. I can't say how many times I've reported people for dropping slurs directed towards me only to check their profile the next day and see that nothing changed and they've kept playing. I used to play League for fun, now it just feels like some weird addiction time waster, i get no fulfillment anymore as I've come to expect most games to be filled with assholes, and i'd say 75% of my games have at least 1 of them. I say do away with the whole stupid system, it doesn't stop jackasses in any way, especially when its so easy to buy or start a new account. Let people say what they want, censor ZT words in chat and just let it go. I honestly don't think this community could get any more toxic, so who cares, let em go wild. Its clear that this system doesn't stop people from talking shit or throwing games even after being punished, so to hell with it. Maybe everything I said is bullshit, but i couldn't care less anymore.

Mitzillfi3/3/2019, 7:39:03 AM2 votes

Got permabanning banned for unsportsmanlike omegalul I sapmmed ggez called someone the r word which according to riot is the same as telling someone to you know what and said suck my dick after an out play oh did I mention that I said the r word to the inting jinx who ran it down and said riot won't care and is still playing riot legit doesn't give a fuck about anyone unless they are a streamer in which case they have free pass and even if they get banned look they get another account with fully unlocked shit

James May3/3/2019, 12:30:44 PM2 votes

Your newly made account must maintain an Honor level of 3, 4, or 5 for 500+ games

This seems a bit too harsh, otherwise I agree with you.

Death Angel Kayn3/3/2019, 11:59:43 PM2 votes

I got permabanned wrongly I think. I did typical flame that 99% of the community is guilty of and said your typical shit. Here's my chatlogs

: no : mine works : omfg : go ahead : gj morde : lee you suck dude : 1 and 3 : lee go afk : we dont need you [All]: the 1 and 5 brand is talking mad sht lol [All]: lee** [All]: not brand [All]: lee is silver though [All]: im plat : trynd alive : gj top push : if trynd dies, we're fine : seriously : stfu : keep them at baron : ill shive botr : lee is too r%%%%%ed, lets f : 4 and 9 lee : 4 and 9 : 4 and 9 : 4 and 9 [All]: gg report lee

Yeah it's toxic but I feel this isn't PERMA ban worthy. And no, riot redirected me to a bot and never responded to me requesting a human. P.s. I got no warnings, I was perma'd right on the spot.

AirKingNeo3/4/2019, 12:11:37 AM2 votes

Your newly made account must maintain an Honor level of 3, 4, or 5 for 500+ games.

500 games is insane. I'd say 100-150, given a game is like an hour.

Bagzy213/4/2019, 1:45:45 AM1 votes

I just have to say thet i think thet League of Legends is not doing a single thing od baneing players for the verbal abuse, i came a cross multible players thet have cursed my mother and after the match i report the right and they are not getting bans at all this is not ok, and the latest player thet used this kind of langueg was DoKu1923 and i have reported him corretlly they evan use other langueges but in some of them you can under stand the word MOTHER, League of Legends, BAN this player DoKu1923 take away his account, because i know thet im not the only one thet hade a verbal abuse problem with him and he ruend the game for me

lillboogi33/17/2019, 9:48:43 PM1 votes

i think that is a verry good idea the 200 game or w/e 2-5 honor level on new account gives u chance to get old account un banned if shown the honor level and the 200 games on the new account with 0 toxicity

Deceivery3/3/2019, 1:28:10 PM1 votes

Firstly, i'd likely to say thank you to Hotaru for putting his point of view out there.

Secondly i'd also like to thank the community for not just blindly down voting and taking the time to discuss this sensitive topic.

I would like to see something like this put in so i could earn my Deceivery account back one day :)

xDogMeatx3/3/2019, 1:48:12 PM1 votes

how does one be passive aggressive?

Eedat3/2/2019, 11:26:53 PM1 votes

Really I think 3+ chances is enough as is. Another thing you are completely overlooking is the absolutely massive amount of manpower needed to make this program work. A bunch of manual reviews, tracking multiple accounts, going over appeals, people appealing their appeals, people arguing about appeals, programmers to make this new system, etc. Essentially it's asking the people who already gave you a bunch of chances to spend their money setting this up and eat the ongoing costs of maintaining it to give you another one. It's very easy to make suggestions or set up a system when you're not the one who is footing the bill.

The system currently in place functions fine. You have to remember that it's actually an incredibly small fraction of players who actually get perma banned. I think people forget this because we see a vastly disproportionate amount of permas on this board that are not representative of the actual LoL playerbase. If you frequent this board, you may unconsciously start to see permas as a normal thing when in fact they are extremely rare punishments given out to people who refuse to reform. The amount of toxicity required to get one of these is insane.

The punishment system functions the way it does currently based on evidence that players who crossed that threshold had an extremely poor chance of reforming. Sure, there may be a few people who had a chance thrown in there but at some point the line needs to be drawn.

zPity3/3/2019, 3:29:18 PM1 votes

money talks. put them on a "diversion" program. It costs RP and if they fail, they still lose their account. Once their account fails diversion, it is not eligible again.

Bootyhunt4rls3/3/2019, 6:37:35 AM1 votes

I got banned after I trolled with teemo in 3 games of rage brought on by the back to back games of other trolls that trolled me and I helped the spin of rage go on. was nice to do, relaxed me. if they had given me a large time ban I woulda toned it down and relaxed but more than that I would still do stuff with the game. the perma ban just breaks me off any claim of ownership for my own account and no matter how much money I drop on the account or how much I play a three games out of 16k games got me my perma ban.

riot doesn't seem to grasp that that doesn't really do anything but piss me off more, i take a hand full of seconds and just make another account on another email, mean no matter what riot does to stop the smurf return of those banned and come back there is always a work around more over the market is flooded with games just like this one now. the perma ban on my account just made me not care nor want to spend money on the game and that in turns makes me more nasty ( I know I am but hey we are being honest here right? ) so now i have toss away accounts all over and i just play like how i want, say what I want and do what I want--that normally just being a goof ball or silly wanting to have fun but with no since of ownership or something that is mine in this game and all can be taken I am FAR FARFAARRRRRR more willing to be spiteful or petty just for the "lols" or the old "time to make a point" ba$tard kinda games.

if my first account was still there with just mounting levels of punishment like taken away blue essence bought items or just the blue itself mixed with large times of punishments id care still. yeah sure id make a toss away account as i waited but once i got it id be more willing to hold my tongue and be more mindful.

this topic and the negative energy around it is also apart of the community's unalert and reverse thinking, from what iv see since i played this game starting at YEAR one is that normally the trolls troll some one and that person being trolled acts out or has a bad game and than the victim gets banned/reported in part due to every one being so tunnel vision about what's going on around them all the see is some one freaking out.

Mean holysh!t just last game I was in a good mood and wanted to be silly with shaco, got it but then was trolled but a butt hurt tahm ALL game, only way to get out of the troll was to go top so I could get xp but it was made clear this person is hell bent to just sink this game but the doof in top lane couldn't grasp what was going on and thought I was a troll duo with the idiot.

As far as your idea goes it would be nice to make an account and then jump through some "ill keep my thoughts to myself" hoops to win back my account, or whatever you have in mind But god damn guy you ppl at riot have to know what its like to be LOCKED into a game for 20-30+ mins with ppl who are clearly malicious. (cause you know iv been that guy before)

So giving me a way to get back my old accounts would be great and make me want to invest back into being a more respectful and mindful player who doesn't mind spending money on the game now and then knowing that even if i snap or let my hate of some one get the better of me the most id have to do is take the punishment and have to deal with a lowbe account vs what i am now, whole note book off random accounts iv made ready to jump to one or the other if i get reported cause i called some one a r%%%%% once for walking into threshes hook for the 5th time in the 10th game back to back of supporting adcs who leave no hook behind.

KFCeytron3/2/2019, 11:23:07 PM1 votes

This is not substantively different from what we have, or from what we used to have (more chances). Creating and linking a new account just acts as a bigger "confirmation" step, like clicking OK or writing "I agree." Players currently get a perma for the fourth punishment on the current account (fourth total punishment) rather than the first punishment on a linked account (fifth total punishment). It's just an extra chance. And that used to be a thing, with more chat restrictions, more suspensions, indefinite chat restrictions... none of it worked. The reason Riot permabans accounts that continue to be toxic after two chat restrictions and a 14-day (after which the user is warned that any poor behavior will result in a perma) is that the player has demonstrated that they're not going to "change their behavior for the better."

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/42/42a1ad92149ee71ded90e32ce20f07319c9dc792f531408a5b5938bd39ad8e6d.jpg

5StackUltOneShot3/3/2019, 7:34:37 AM1 votes

I have had my account banned recently and I do have to say these rules seem fine. Anything hate speech related should negate any redemption, same as int feeding and botting.

However, honour lvl 3,4,5 should be removed and keep it at 4,5 but for 200 games. 500 games seems insanely high.