Conversation outlining a major flaw in the punishment system

Heres a conversation I bring up with riot about once a year to have it swept under the rug, my help requests auto closed and be told that its a addressed subject despite everybody refusing to talk to me about it across 3 accounts.

But today was different, today I talked to cammy white and he gave me the time of day and gave me his word he would try and help out community by bring'n this issue up with someone that had enough power to do something about it.

This is the most hope for advancement I ever seen and I've been playing since season one.

Let us hope this issue is brought up, debated and a solution is found.

I would like to open this up to the forums for opinions and debate in hopes that we could possibly find a solution ourselves.

My joking suggestion of replace player button doesn't seem like the best idea... and since none of you could see past the JOKE SUGGESTION and read the point of this conversation, I am deleting the entire suggestion since its too distracting for you guys, nobody was able to read past it and read the point of this, so thats why its been removed and is no longer in this spot.

Chat started Cammy White joined the chat

Cammy White Whats up Green Spade I'd like to know what the point in playing this game is or even having a ranking system when your company refuse's to address the very real reality that afk/griefing/trolling games happen nearly every game sub gold, yet while those players have protection with mute function verse you trying to communicate with them to solve the issue, you don't have any kind of replace player function, yet if a team speaks out verse one player, you would punish all 5 with a blanket ban for speaking out verse the one player who orginally caused the problem.

I feel your system is broken and not working when I can lose 12 straight games like this and be demoted repeatedly while trying my hardest and being the only person on my team with more then 1 kill in most cases due to how badly people are griefing.

Cammy White You have had a rough time with ranked lately huh ? Green Spade No actually I've been playing since season one and nothing has changed in your system

to address this issue

This isn't a recent thing, this is like since season one this has been a problem, the only thing you guys have done over the years to change your system is harsher banning and punishment for text replys to griefers and trolls

you haven't actually done jack about the griefers or trolls

I'd dare say its actually got worse over the years since now adays you can't even point out a player is trolling or you open ourself up to punishment for being "toxic"

toxic is such a wide term too that you guys use as a blanket term to punish people for sort of team criticism.

despite there being a mute function to protect them

its a oxymoron

Cammy White Ive been playing since season 1 so I get how much trouble the trolls can give us Green Spade Yet the only thing your company has done to address trolls is harsher punishments for legitimate players speaking out verse them in text to try and correct their actions since its the only way to correct in game players actions?

Again mute doesnt stop players actions

Report after game doesn't stop players actions 20 mins previously

you tell someone what they are doing is reportable and you will be punished for being toxic

you leave the game you will be punished by leaverbuster

There is no good option here, yet you protect these griefers by giving them mute

and still punish us for them not using mute if we speak out verse it despite mute being the protection function for text?

Again we got no replace player button or function, so to denie us the ONLY tool we can use; team communication; is just crazy

Cammy White Speak to me more about this replace player button how would it work ? Green Spade doublely crazy when there is a mute function, whoever refuse's to use the mute is creating their own grief by not using it

Its not my job to fix your company, I don't get paid to fix your game

Am I to understand that cuz you guys don't have a plan of action is the reason why you guys haven't done anything about this obviously issue?

Cammy White We look into these issues quite often thats why I was asking for feedback on what you are seeing. You have a unique perspective being with us since season 1. I was just looking to get more info on what you would like changed. Green Spade I would like the banning system changed so that people who refuse to use mute cannot report other people for text while griefing and trolling and ruining their game

I think a protection function for griefers is crazy, but if you want to continue to have mute, I think its ill-logical to also punish people for another players inability to use the protection function; mute

Again there is zero protection verse someones in game actions

All of your suggestions do not equal a positive response, as in mute doesn't stop their griefing actions, report after game doesn't stop their griefing actions, the ONLY way to stop them is through team communication that you currently will punish any player for attempting.

Your company constantly offers their player base suggestions that don't work, while punishing us for the only option that does work (sure not 100% of the time but even 10% is better then ZERO percent)

Again if you fail in team communication and the griefer wishes to mute you to protect themselves from your text that is their call

But to denie us the ability to even try is crazy

when its the only option with a positive percentage to work

Cammy White I get what you are saying, I think the smart ping system helps a little bit for communication, when chat gets real bad Green Spade It doesn't tho, you guys just gave griefers ping mute cuz griefers didn't like people ping'n question marks ontop of them while they are griefing

I mean nobody just spam pings question marks on someone for no reason

cause and effect

if it happens there is a triggering cause

and the pings are the effect

Cammy White I mean if the trolls want to troll they will figure out a way to work around the system to mess with players.

you can mute pings as well though

but I get where you are coming from with team communication Green Spade okay? mute ping doesnt help stop a griefer tho

it just protects a griefer from hearing our pings while hes griefing

Cammy White So what would you suggest would help out in a difficult situation like this with a super persistent griefer Green Spade And trolls are already workign around your system, its not hard, they can troll do whateve they want, claim they where trying and you won't punish them

if they dont say anything in text you got no case to punish them

unless they int feed

You haev the perfect breeding grounds for griefers and trolls cuz you punish anyone who speaks out verse them

and your detection ways of looking at text or int feeding don't cover all forms of griefing

I'd say it doesn't cover most forms in fact

"So what would you suggest would help out in a difficult situation like this with a super persistent griefer"

The ONLY solution is team communication.

No other solution has anything above zero percent chance to work.

Cammy White I tend to agree with you Green Spade This is why I think its crazy that while you have both mute and mute ping to protect griefers, you will still punish people for text even if the person they are typing it to doesn't even see it cuz they've muted them

Who is the victim really here?

The guy who can't see your text while griefing?

I dont think so

Cammy White but the mute function does not give them right to say whatever they would like. they are still responsible for their actions and chat in game. Green Spade The mute function gives them the right to DO whatever they want without hearing otherwise or seeing pings making them 2nd guess what they are doing so they can grief in peace

I think to also punish people who speak out verse this, while the person has them muted and can't even see it, is crazy since nobody can even see the text and your punishing someone for a situation with no victim of text since again they cant see it

And even if they could see it, they are creating their own grief by not using the protection function mute

Again to denie us the ability to use communication while also having ZERO OPTIONS to solve in game giefing actions is just a oxymoron

it doesn't make logical sense

Its like the ONLY option to solve in game griefing atm currently is team communication

untill your company gives us another option that is the ONLY option

Cammy White and you are saying that having an option of taking a griefer out of the game is another possible solution to this issue ? Green Spade Not at all actually, I'm just stating a fact that you have a mute function to protect griefers yet you punish people for text, while AT THE EXACT SAME TIME you have zero protection functions verse griefing players actions and will punish people for using the ONLY OPTION of team communication to try and solve it

I'm saying your system is broken and doesn't work, it doesn't make logical sense for defeating griefers or the toxic servers you claim to hate, instead it creates a breeding ground for it cuz everybody is too scared to speak out verse other players to correct their actions due to the threat of punishment from your company

This means your community is more likely to mute and continue to grief then to correct their actions

Cuz nobody is alowed to point out to them that they are even griefing

griefing is acceptable gameplay now

or at least thats how its seen from your player base

I mean mf support is legit now adays right

quinn top legit right

you guys ruined your meta

and this is the effect of it, bunch of people trying to play a game with broken teams all freaking out on each other cuz everybody is trolling and nobody knows how to even play legitimately anymore

Cammy White Thats why I play mostly with a pre-made, less risk Green Spade can't do that for ranked solo/duo

Cammy White sure youre right Green Spade so... just cuz you guys don't deal with it.. means its not a problem that should be addressed?

Its my understanding that most of the help desk is plat plus as well so they are clueless about the grief sub gold players have to endure

this is prob the tenth time at least I've brought this subject up with your company to have nothing done about ti

Cammy White That is a rumor you have heard about the rankings

Some of us know about the sub gold grind and we see it everyday

that way we can relate to most of the player base better Green Spade sub gold grind is fine, its the concentration of griefers and trolls sub gold that is the problem

you either have it on your team or its the enemy team

I have yet to have a game where it hasn't been on my team or the enemy team in like dozens of games

sure I might win a game but its cuz the enemy is dealing with what I delt with last game. Sure I might win a game cuz of a properly built team but they are rare, its like 80% ratio of trolls, sure you can overcome some trolls and win those games still but its less likely

I don't even mind losing really tbh if we had a properly built team and we played our hardest

I hate having to endure 20-30 mins of gameplay cuz your company will punish me with leaver buster tho when I got someone going 0-20 feeding top

I also hate how I can't say anything about that player or even point out to them that its reportable or else I'll be punished myself

How do people correct their actions if your company punishes anyone who trys to make them see the errors in their ways?

Sure if someone doesn't want to hear it, they got mute to protect them

But to punish you for simply trying is crazy at best

I mean if you had other options to offer people to solve the problem then yeah sure punish people for text, but there is ZERO other options, text is the ONLY option, so to punish people for using the only option is crazy

To think your servers are going to get less toxic when your creating a breeding ground for griefers to do what they want without having to hear from their team about it is just again crazy

This doesn't make any logical sense, at all, the problem will never be solved like this.

Proof? 7 years griefers and trolls have got worse, your more likely to get one now then in years one to two but you guys have harsher punishments now, why doesn't that work if your harsher punishing everyone? Cuz your not targeting the right people, your focusing on text instead of game actions.

Cammy White I think you have brought up a bunch of great points about how we can fix things, and I get why you are understandably upset over this. Green Spade I just wish something would be done about it instead of being told I have a point repeatedly year after year and nothing being done

I know that isnt personally your fault, however your company has been aware of this from myself and a dozen other of my friends who quit your game over the responces they got.

I'm prettymuch ready to quit myself tbh

I mean dota2 has way better community then league, hands down

Cammy White I mean taking a break from the game helps to give perspective and you can always come back, its up to you Green Spade I tried that

nothing changed

I have my judgement kayle rewards from season one

I got my midevil twitch and grey warwick

I've been playing a long time and I've put alot into your community

I've tried taking brakes, I've tried talking to your staff

none of that has done anything to effect your community

I could take a brake for a year and I think the only thing that would change is your servers becoming more toxic

I mean you guys are not doing anything differently

why would anything change?

I mean what good does a brake do if nothing has changed when I return?

I ask that seriously since nothing has changed since season one and the effect of that is that your servers just become more and more toxic cuz your not doing anything about it

I mean griefers and trolls get a double-laugh cuz not only can they grief and troll in peace with mute on ping and text, but they can also report their team for speaking out verse them and they'll get a message telling them what a good job they did reporting people for punishment

This is the perfect breeding ground for griefers and its amazing your company doesn't see the reality for what it is

Cammy White I think there are somethings that we need to improve about stopping griefers like you mentioned and I get how it could be seen as a breeding ground for them, But from seeing things from the inside I believe that we are making progress to helping remove these players from League. I appreciate you letting us know about the shortcomings of our system, because sometimes it takes an outsider to explain the nuances of this to us. Green Spade I think the key issue here is your attempting to force people to be a team while giving them the tools to refuse to be a part of the team and do whatever they want to do

and then punishing anyone who speaks out about it

Cammy White Yeah I can see that Green Spade The hope now is that since you can see that; maybe you can do something about it or tell a manager (cuz nobody ever links me to a manager)

Cammy White Yeah I think it took me a little while to get what you were saying but I get it now Green Spade I'm not just saying this repeatedly multiple times a year to you guys for my own good health, I actually want this to be talked about by people who have power over the rules and something debated about being done as a solution

Cammy White and as a season 1 player like myself I get where the passion is coming from

we love this game and hate to see it end up like where it is Green Spade Yeah exactly, its like watching a old friend get sick and start dying on their death bed

Its hard to watch and makes me want to look away

Cammy White some games never make it this far, that's one of the reasons I wanted to work here to enact change for the better Green Spade Well if you can bring this subject up to anyone in power to do something about it you would be doing more for this community then I feel 99% of staff have done since year one, this has been a largely unaddressed issue since year one despite it being bring up multiple times by multiple people to the point where we're normally told to go away, nothing can be done about it and have our help requests auto closed as already addressed

despite us feeling as if it wasnt

I can't count on two hands the amount of friends who quit after that experience

I honestly donno why I haven't yet

Cammy White Yeah I don't have many left on my original friends list as well I feel that pain. But yeah I think I can start a conversation with higher ups and see if we can get any headway on this. But rest assured that you have atleast me here that will fight for change Green Spade Cool man thats more hope then any staff member has ever given me

Cammy White Well hey, it has been a pleasure speaking with you about this today, and if you have any other issues you can tell them to send you over to Cammy White and if I am in I will see what I can do for you ( just don't abuse it :) ) but I gotta go help some other players issues but I will see what I can do about helping us get back to the glory of season 1 that us OG's remember. Green Spade Sounds good to me.

One last issue I did want to bring up, not nearly as big of a issue however but...

If you guys are going to be punishing people for saying "report such as such" you should add it to the list of reportable offenses, since currently it looks as if its NOT reportable.

Cammy White That is incorrect, it is a reportable offense as it does make players feel uncomfortable and possibly tilt them. No one likes being told that they are being reported regardless of it is warranted Green Spade ? you must be reading that wrong

Cammy White Sorry did I read that wrong Green Spade Only human

Cammy White oh add to the list

so players know Green Spade yes

Cammy White i get ya now Green Spade currently it looks as if its not a legitimate report

When I got punished for it, it was completely left field, I didnt see it coming or even know thats why I was being punished till a staff member told me

I mean this is a new rule, I'm season one, so I didn't know this was a rule

Cammy White Yeah I think we need to let more people know about that

I did not know about it until recently as well Green Spade I got to admit tho, I don't agree with it, I think pointing out to someone that what they are doing is reportable may make them 2nd guess what they are doing

Cammy White Sure it can have that effect as well. Green Spade Well I mean its the only option with a positive success rate

instead of a zero percent success rate

Cammy White cuz if you are trying to teach someone what is okay or not telling them about reporting might stop them Green Spade Yeah I agree, I think punishing people for informing someone else about what they are doing is reportable isn't right, but I don't own your company

Again ties into people creating their own grief by not using mute, but we talked about this already

as much as I disagree with punishment for informing someone about their reportable actions, if your company wishes to wage war on its legitimately playing population in favour of protecting griefers and trolls, thats your guys call, but you should be clear about it in the report section by adding it to the list of offenses

Cammy White Yeah I see where you are coming from

But hey I gotta go handle some other issues as well but I like the suggestions you make and I am sure we will be talking soon :) Green Spade Fair enough, I trust you'll bring up these two subjects and try to get something done about it.

Thanks for your time.

Cammy White Yeah Have a good rest of your day ! Chat rated Good Comment submitted

OKAY Since you guys seem to want to skim this and completely avoid the entire point of what I'm trying to say here, I'm going to paste this at the bottom.

My bad for posting this here and expecting you guys to read it, I get it, its too long, to expect you guys to get the point of it without spamming me about enabling toxic players was foolish at best.

I stated that my idea of a replace player feature was a joke, yet you all instead of adding to the constructiveness to find a goal or offering any other solution you guys just bash everything I have to talk about and take it massively out of context by skimming instead of reading to understand the point.

The system will never be corrected if this is how you guys all truely feel, that griefing gameplay is acceptable and despite there being a mute function to protect that griefer from text, there is no function to protect verse in game actions.

Report after game doesnt prevent actions 20 mins prior.

Mute in game doesn't stop their actions.

You can't leave or be punished by leaver buster.

The ONLY solution with a positive outcome is team communication so I think its insane to also punish people for that when there is protection in place if someone wants to continue to grief while not hearing their team try to talk them out of it, if the player makes the choice to not use the protection function mute then they are creating their own grief by alowing themselves to see the text by not using mute.

It seems you guys all avoided this entire point and isntead just repeated the same bs that doesn't equal a solution.

If you don't think my solution works of replaceing a player (I don't either so its okay) then give me a better solution for this situation, since currently the ONLY solution with a positive outcome is team communication, all other options equal a zero percent success rate, yet currently under the currently banning system any and all criticism of another player can be taken as negative or toxic even if its pointing out the reality of their actions or telling them what they can do to correct their situation, if they don't accept it in a positive way then your a toxic flamer. I don't feel that is right that if someone else cannot accept your team communication that you should be punished for simply trying and them refusing to use the mute function, again you have no other tools, no other options to try and correct their actions aside of team communication so to punish people for simply trying is again ill logical when is is the ONLY OPTION. If you guys gave us another option, sure, ban people for any text used, but since we have no other option, that is the only one we're able to use, but due to threat of punishment from your company most people don't even try to fix their own game by informing someone what the problem with their actions is since they are then opening themselves up for punishment on themselves... you don't evolve as a community like this, nor does your player base realise what they are doing wrong to correct it even if you punish 4 people speaking out verse 1 guy, that 1 guy is going to continue to do what hes doing in every game cuz nobody is allowed to tell him what hes doing isn't right again under threat of punishment from riot.

Am I saying I think people should personally attack each other? Of course not!

Am I saying racist comments or sexist comments or anything like that should be acceptable? Of course not!

Both of those obviously should still be punishable.

But should someone trying to tell their team mate to smarten up or stop doing something be punished? No absolutely not since this is valueable team information that is acceptable in any other team game aside of league of legends, any team game where a team member isn't doing their job or doing something wrong, their team trys to HELP THEM by pointing out that reality to them; so they can move on as a team together and move past it, win the game, instead of losing due to reason that could be corrected if someone pointed it out.

By denie'n us the ability to even point it out to someone under fear of punishment to your company is again counter-productive to team gameplay where the goal is to work together and point out whatever issues are holding your team back so your team can correct them and hopefully win, or point out the same issues on the enemy team so you can take advantage of it and win... team communication is key on team games.. and I feel riot is waging war on team communication instead of the griefers people use team communication verse in attempt to fix their actions.

Cause and effect, if there wasn't a griefer doing something, there would be no cause for a player to stop playing the game to type to them.