The punishment MUST fit the crime.

Caretaker Jack··5 votes·1,895 views

Just being honest. Riot gives pretty extreme punishments. Like, I had no idea that these people were dropping from honor 5 to zero on the first offense.

Think about it. If your punishment snatches all their progress in one swoop, you're pushing League towards more toxicity. Its already hard to get honor as a genuinely good player, so when you take the bad players progress and say "redeem" yourself," what you may as well say is "be better at being toxic next time." because that's what has been happening.

Put yourselves in the shoes of an honor 3,4, or 5 player who argued with someone and took it way too far... That person, literally, loses everything. To lose so much in one go makes redeeming yourself feel pointless. So, metaphorically, that person might not ever say another bad word in games again, but now they're highly likely to wait out bad games, troll more without saying anything, and tilt other people in the process because they know that they're not getting that progress back anytime soon. Think about it, Riot.

If this persons goal was to get their honor back, why would this person really want to try hard in a normal they're not doing well in? I'm being serious. If that person isn't the best on their team, then they probably know full well that the game they're in has no value... In a realistic setting what do you think this person chooses to do? It's simple. If the game yields no value, then they obviously want it over as quickly as possible,so they wait it out. They pretend to care, they bait their allies, they don't join fights, and they say nothing the entire time. As a bonus, they can indirectly get one of their allies banned if they happen to catch on to what they're doing and say enough bad words towards them. To this person, it's the perfect punishment for wasting their time. And it can apply to anything. All they have to do is be smart enough to not tell you they're trolling and avoid a stupid score like 0/15/0.

In other words, "bad" players being unable to redeem themselves pushes them to give up being better players and focus their energy on being being better at being bad... Or they simply quit. Is there any wonder the games now feel more toxic? Real talk, If they feel they cant acquire the honors or satisfy themselves with a win, they put the effort into moving to the next game as soon as possible.

26 Comments

Chermorg8 votes

The only way to drop straight to honor 0 on a first offense is to have done something so incredibly toxic and against the rules that it would never be even considered acceptable for League. Examples include encouraging someone to kill themselves, making threats against someone in real life (not just empty threats, but detailed ones), doxxing, using hateful or derogatory language, and things like that.

Simple toxicity does not drop to honor 0 on first offense - but instead gets a chat restriction and a drop to honor 1. And this makes sense - a player who is toxic enough to get a punishment is not honor 5. They aren't even honor 4. Or 3. They aren't even honor 2 - which is "neutral" honor (i.e. some player who is "average" - not really honorable, but not dishonorable). They've displayed through their toxicity that they are explicitly not honorable - thus they don't deserve even "neutral" honor that new players get.

Very rarely is a chat restriction and honor drop issued off only one game. For the vast majority of players, it takes 3 games to get punished, if not more.

Caretaker Jack1 votes

{quoted}

The only way to drop straight to honor 0 on a first offense is to have done something so incredibly toxic and against the rules that it would never be even considered acceptable for League. Examples include encouraging someone to kill themselves, making threats against someone in real life (not just empty threats, but detailed ones), doxxing, using hateful or derogatory language, and things like that.

Simple toxicity does not drop to honor 0 on first offense - but instead gets a chat restriction and a drop to honor 1. And this makes sense - a player who is toxic enough to get a punishment is not honor 5. They aren't even honor 4. Or 3. They aren't even honor 2 - which is "neutral" honor (i.e. some player who is "average" - not really honorable, but not dishonorable). They've displayed through their toxicity that they are explicitly not honorable - thus they don't deserve even "neutral" honor that new players get.

Very rarely is a chat restriction and honor drop issued off only one game. For the vast majority of players, it takes 3 games to get punished, if not more.

Okay, you've got some good information in the first paragraph, but i'm also getting the whole "once a thief always a thief" vibe which, unsurprisingly, is the theme my original post addresses. And then, the first sentence in your second paragraph is an oxymoron that does more to confirm my point than yours. In other words, you can still go from any honor lvl to nothing. Sooo, from there it's my OP all over again.

The punishment still does not fit the crime. There will always be the cancerous people that are beyond help, but we tend to ignore the people who are just gonna be there regardless of if they actually learned from it all or not. This, right here, pretty much further explains the increase in toxicity.

Chermorg8 votes

Yes, because you aren't honorable if you display dishonor. It's not that hard.

You're acting as if someone who speeds 3 times and loses their license for it should get leniency just because someone who sped once doesn't lose their license. In many places you lose your license and have to earn it back if you break the law repeatedly. It's no different in honor. If you display dishonor (either extreme dishonor once, or moderate dishonor repeatedly) you will lose your honorable status.

Tell me this, why should a player who has displayed dishonorable behavior keep their honor level?

Caretaker Jack1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, because you aren't honorable if you display dishonor. It's not that hard.

You're acting as if someone who speeds 3 times and loses their license for it should get leniency just because someone who sped once doesn't lose their license. In many places you lose your license and have to earn it back if you break the law repeatedly. It's no different in honor. If you display dishonor (either extreme dishonor once, or moderate dishonor repeatedly) you will lose your honorable status.

Tell me this, why should a player who has displayed dishonorable behavior keep their honor level?

I think your oversimplification of the subject leads you to misunderstand my point... Lets use your example to clarify:

I want ALL the speeders to get caught. At the same time, I'm also saying they don't deserve a capital offense or a first degree murder charge for speeding. An appropriate punishment would be the ticket and a revoked licence. In other words, I'm not saying some people shouldn't be punished, but I am saying that the punishments don't match the crime for some people. Is that more clear?

So, i'm gonna beg your closing question and ask: "Why should the guy with the speeding ticket get the same sentence as the murder?" I get that example is extreme, but I'm trying to say the current system has like 2 boxes to put people in. This lack of distinction is a problem and if it wasn't then toxicity would be getting better in League... Which we all know isn't the case.

Chermorg5 votes

They don't get a capital murder charge for being toxic once. They get a chat restriction.

Punishment is different from account standing. In the example I gave, speeders can get their license revoked if they are continually speeding or if they speed once but egregiously. While they aren't thrown in jail (just slapped with a fine), they lose their license (their "standing") and have to earn it back. Further offenses make it harder to earn their standing back.

It's the same in League - if you're toxic, you lose your honor, because you aren't honorable.

Caretaker Jack1 votes

{quoted}

They don't get a capital murder charge for being toxic once. They get a chat restriction.

Punishment is different from account standing. In the example I gave, speeders can get their license revoked if they are continually speeding or if they speed once but egregiously. While they aren't thrown in jail (just slapped with a fine), they lose their license (their "standing") and have to earn it back. Further offenses make it harder to earn their standing back.

It's the same in League - if you're toxic, you lose your honor, because you aren't honorable.

I didn't twist your example to make a point, but okay.

Punishment and account standing are different, but in League, there seems to be no specifics within "punishment" or "account standing"... So (blank) guy is just as bad as (blank guy) and the honor system doesn't help this because it doesn't actually reward good behavior. It just rewards behaviors that aren't noticeably bad. And, thats what this is about.

I feel that a more specific mechanic/ system/ something should be in place to ensure people who actually learned something can move to lvl 2 quicker than the int-ing guy who knows how to be quiet.

Chermorg3 votes

It is. People at level 0 have moved back to level 2 in less than a month if they show improved behavior.

Caretaker Jack2 votes

{quoted}

It is. People at level 0 have moved back to level 2 in less than a month if they show improved behavior.

Anyone can pick it up, because all they have to do is say nothing... There is no way to differentiate a person who has really learned a lesson from a quiet troll.

AceGeo4 votes

Free game. Riot is rewarding those who are not toxic with FREE loot. Hmmmmm. You should think on this more.

Caretaker Jack1 votes

{quoted}

Free game. Riot is rewarding those who are not toxic with FREE loot. Hmmmmm. You should think on this more.

It's rewarding them, which is fine... But lumped in there are people who are not caught being toxic. (That's the concern here.)

Chermorg6 votes

? There's literally no way to go below honor level 2 unless you're caught being toxic.

Caretaker Jack2 votes

{quoted}

? There's literally no way to go below honor level 2 unless you're caught being toxic.

You Think I'm Saying: Some of these people aren't toxic. The system is punishing people who shouldn't be punished. Hence, they need to get specific.

**Actually Saying: ** Once people are caught for being toxic, the system is only rewarding behavior that isn't bad, but they are not rewarding good behavior. Hence, They need to get specific.

Chermorg3 votes

I still don't get this.

Not bad, by definition, means neutral or good. Good behavior is rewarded faster than neutral behavior. Players who show very sportsmanlike behavior in game will gain honor much faster than those who simply "don't do bad".

Caretaker Jack1 votes

{quoted}

I still don't get this.

Not bad, by definition, means neutral or good. Good behavior is rewarded faster than neutral behavior. Players who show very sportsmanlike behavior in game will gain honor much faster than those who simply "don't do bad".

the best player =/= better person

Chermorg3 votes

Fun fact, both my personal statistics and other people I play with show that, most often, the "most honorable" player doesn't go to the person who carried the game, but the one who was polite, reassuring, and helpful in chat the whole game.

Caretaker Jack1 votes

{quoted}

Fun fact, both my personal statistics and other people I play with show that, most often, the "most honorable" player doesn't go to the person who carried the game, but the one who was polite, reassuring, and helpful in chat the whole game.

What are your numbers? Is the difference marginal? Cus that's.... definitely a game changer.

Chermorg2 votes

In the past week, I've seen most honorable player given on my team twice. Both times were to me. I didn't carry either game by a long shot.

Caretaker Jack1 votes

{quoted}

In the past week, I've seen most honorable player given on my team twice. Both times were to me. I didn't carry either game by a long shot.

Eh, that's not very reliable, but it's something.. I still don't regret bringing the issue to the forefront and I still think riot should look more into it.

Aneirin3 votes

I'm at honour lvl 4 and I don't carry games - I play a pretty supportive style and am happy to let someone else on my team carry. So I'm definitely not getting honoured for being the best player.

[slayer-jinx-catface]

Caretaker Jack1 votes

{quoted}

I'm at honour lvl 4 and I don't carry games - I play a pretty supportive style and am happy to let someone else on my team carry. So I'm definitely not getting honoured for being the best player.

[slayer-jinx-catface]

I'm at honor 3... I have friends at honor 5 that are rude to other people in games and still get honors. It's just wrong.

Aneirin2 votes

That's people for you though - there's no way to force people to use their honours a certain way.

Caretaker Jack1 votes

{quoted}

That's people for you though - there's no way to force people to use their honours a certain way.

thats fine... Not really what i'm asking anyways. I'm just saying the system also rewards ppl who arent honorable.

TrulyBland2 votes

I actually agree that increasing specificity on rewards should be a focus. Unintentionally rewarding people for bad behaviour is detrimental to the entire idea behind Riot's justice system. That said, most of the time you can't easily accomplish an increase in specificity without also lowering sensitivity.

The problem with that then is that a lack of sensitivity when giving a reward is identical to a lack of specificity in not giving a reward. And at the end of the day, even if it's not intended, not receiving rewards feels like a punishment to people.

So what originally was a question of specificity vs. sensitivity becomes a question of specificity of rewards vs. specificity of quasi-punishments.

AJStarhiker3 votes

A few weeks ago, I had most honorable after probably one of my worst games. Why? Because one person had decided I was his punching bag before the game started and instead of responding to his assault, I muted him and played out the game.

In another game, I actually saw a carry tilt in post-game because people chose other players to honor. So yeah, carrying alone won't guarrantee people will honor you.

Goldilux1 votes

The punishment fits the crime. You are getting free stuff for being honorable. Those free things are on pause for being dishonorable and you can get them back by showing you aren't dishonorable anymore.

I don't see how this is unfair.

What other system should it be? You still get free stuff for being dishonorable? That makes no sense.

Caretaker Jack1 votes

{quoted}

The punishment fits the crime. You are getting free stuff for being honorable. Those free things are on pause for being dishonorable and you can get them back by showing you aren't dishonorable anymore.

I don't see how this is unfair.

What other system should it be? You still get free stuff for being dishonorable? That makes no sense.

scroll through and read the other posts. I dont feel like repeating myself.

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