Would fewer players be permabanned if the punishments were harsher?

DrCyanide··38 votes·2,558 views

Every once in a while I see a post on this board that tugs at my heart strings. I've seen this story come up a few times, maybe you've seen it too.


A player gets a chat restriction and thinks nothing of it. They may recall a few games where they were extra out of line, admit they were wrong, and move on.

Then they get another chat restriction. Again, a few of their worse games come to mind, but they think to themselves "I've had this punishment before, it's not so bad."

Then comes the 2-week ban with its warning that the next punishment is a permanent ban. It's at this point that the player realizes they really need to change. While there are those that don't try to improve, there are also those that give it their all.

They go two months or so without incident, but then it hits them. The bad day combined with the boosted Bronze 5 teammates who provoke them. They've handled situations like this since their two week ban, but today the old habits raise their ugly head and they lash out. They realize their mistake soon after the game, but it's too late. They're now permabanned.

Usually when this player comes to the boards they don't post about how Riot was wrong, nor do they beg for another chance. They'd love another chance, sure, but what you notice most is the sadness of the post. They were so close to being counted as honestly, truly, completely reformed, and it slipped away from them. If only they'd had more time to try and get it right...


It's for that player that I think the punishment system needs to be changed. I believe that these players can and would have been able to turn their actions around had they started trying sooner. I feel like the best way to get across that they need to change sooner is to have the punishments themselves ramp up sooner, with the exception of the permaban itself.

Imagine if after the 10 game chat restriction you got a 2 week ban. You'd take that pretty seriously, even if there were still punishments after it. I think that might be the best catalyst for players changing, is being kicked from the game for a while.

With that in mind, I think that the punishment system which might help players start reforming sooner would look something like this:

  • 25 game chat restriction
  • You can go a lot of games without needing to talk much. This punishment should be geared towards getting players use to that, even if they're frustrated with their teammates. I'm not sure 10 games with limited chat is enough to get that across
  • 2 week ban
  • This is where the punishment system gets real for most. It's at this step that people try to change, but it may take a bit of practice to get into a habit of responding appropriately, which is why I don't think it should be right up against Permaban. I'd also be in favor of keeping 10 game chat restriction and adding a step after 2 week ban.
  • 4 week ban
  • Roughly a month of no League. It's about as long as a temp ban can possibly be. There's a decent chance players would make smurf accounts at this point, so it's not an ideal punishment by any means.
  • Permaban

I really think this would help people change sooner, but I'm curious what you think. Particularly if you've been through the current punishment system before, do you think you'd respond better or worse to this system?

84 Comments

Krigjer8 votes

I feel like it should escalate from chat restrictions to 24-hour bans, then 48-hour or whatever is appropriate. Being hit with a 2-week ban after just not being allowed to talk in a game feels like a harsh step up.

I would wager that a majority of people try to reform at the first sign of actual punishment. We're like children- getting grounded for a day made it clear that they mean business but care enough about us actually behaving to give us a second chance.

DrCyanide4 votes

As I recall, Riot originally settled on the two week ban so that it'd be noticeable for players who could only play once a week as well as those who play more often. In that vain I could see a 1 week ban to 2 week ban system working.

AeroWaffle6 votes

Typically, the standard "I was perma-banned!" has the OP claiming that their behavior was acceptable or that they didn't believe it was bad enough to warrant a punishment.

Not, "If only I had more punishments to warn me". The 14-day ban is enough of a slap for most players to realize that Riot doesn't find their behavior acceptable.

If they didn't get the message after a 2-week ban, there's little chance of them getting the message at all.

YOU LOST LMAO2 votes

{quoted}

Typically, the standard "I was perma-banned!" has the OP claiming that their behavior was acceptable or that they didn't believe it was bad enough to warrant a punishment.

Not, "If only I had more punishments to warn me". The 14-day ban is enough of a slap for most players to realize that Riot doesn't find their behavior acceptable.

If they didn't get the message after a 2-week ban, there's little chance of them getting the message at all.

wrong, the 2 week ban is enough slap in the face. this account is doing a 2 week ban for the 2nd time this season, I wont let it get to perma. you can doubt me all you want idc

VexingRaven1 votes

[{quoted}](name=5v5 Teamfighter,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=YlE4kHYt,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-11-03T22:28:20.219+0000)

wrong, the 2 week ban is enough slap in the face. this account is doing a 2 week ban for the 2nd time this season, I wont let it get to perma. you can doubt me all you want idc

I genuinely wish you the best of luck, but I am not holding out much hope for you.

YOU LOST LMAO1 votes

{quoted}

I genuinely wish you the best of luck, but I am not holding out much hope for you.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/T8c3M3yWJcsKY/200.gif#5

This is how I feel when I see that this post is still active with kids trying to get justice on me. this post should have been long gone expired, but kids like you are still trying hard to get revenge to make ur sad life feel slightly better.

VexingRaven1 votes

[{quoted}](name=5v5 Teamfighter,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=YlE4kHYt,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-04T04:50:18.252+0000)

https://media1.giphy.com/media/T8c3M3yWJcsKY/200.gif#5

This is how I feel when I see that this post is still active with kids trying to get justice on me. this post should have been long gone expired, but kids like you are still trying hard to get revenge to make ur sad life feel slightly better.

It was a few hours old at the time, though? I'm also really curious what telling you I don't think you'll avoid a perma does for me as far as revenge for... idk what?

Thank you though, you just proved exactly why I think you'll eventually get a permaban. Believe me I've been there, I have 2 permabans under my belt from the tribunal days, I know exactly what it feels like. Have fun while it lasts.

DrCyanide2 votes

I agree, the situation I'm targeting is not the common one that comes to Player Behavior. It's a rarer occurrence, but I feel like those players would be helped if they honestly had one more chance or a sterner warning earlier.

If they didn't get the message after a 2-week ban, there's little chance of them getting the message at all.

This is targeted to those who "got the message" after the two week ban, shaped up, but still need a bit more practice to handle rough situations better. Those who don't get the message will get permabanned by this system as well as the current.

AeroWaffle2 votes

The number of those people are extraordinarily low.

Riot tried something called a "level 20 challenge". It gave perma-banned players a last chance to prove that they have changed their behavior. If they made it to level 20 without displaying poor behavior, they would get their account back.

Logically, the players that "need a bit more practice to handle rough situations better" would be among these perma-banned players attempting to get their account back.

The success rate was abysmal. Riot decided that it wasn't worth the trouble that the toxic players bring back to the game when given another chance on the rare chance that they're one of the very few that use the final chance wisely.

DrCyanide1 votes

I don't think the players I'm targeting would be in the "level 20 challenge" category, because I don't think they would have been permabanned at all under the old system.

The old system was extremely lax, really holding permaban until the last possible moment. You were more likely to get 5,000 games of chat restrictions than a permaban. I don't know how often week long punishments came up, but you can bet there was a long buffer between that and the permaban. During that long buffer, the players I'm targeting with these proposed changes would have been more than able to get their act together.

Of course the current system is an improvement in many ways, but I feel like this is one area where it falls behind the old system.

VexingRaven1 votes

{quoted}

The old system was extremely lax, really holding permaban until the last possible moment. You were more likely to get 5,000 games of chat restrictions than a permaban. I don't know how often week long punishments came up, but you can bet there was a long buffer between that and the permaban. During that long buffer, the players I'm targeting with these proposed changes would have been more than able to get their act together.

What? The Tribunal handed out permabans like candy.

Leetri1 votes

Lots of people just hit Punish to get the rewards for a majority vote, apparently.

Votable Jester1 votes

I hit innocent every so often. I wasn't even aware there were rewards; I just wanted to help improve the community a bit.

FTMHukY4Ps1 votes

{quoted}

Typically, the standard "I was perma-banned!" has the OP claiming that their behavior was acceptable or that they didn't believe it was bad enough to warrant a punishment.

Not, "If only I had more punishments to warn me". The 14-day ban is enough of a slap for most players to realize that Riot doesn't find their behavior acceptable.

If they didn't get the message after a 2-week ban, there's little chance of them getting the message at all.

I openly admit that I was in the wrong as well but things could have been accomplished with a far more elegant solution than a massive middle finger rising up from Riot's fist three months after my previous ban had taken place. I'm all for them revamping the system as long as they take care of the problem instead of just using the caveman philosophy of "Oh, thanks for the money but we are taking everything away now." And then not even being willing to discuss the event with the player. I don't mean undo any punishment, I just wanted to speak to someone about the ideas I had and they gave me the generic copy paste response.

Galiö1 votes

{quoted}

Typically, the standard "I was perma-banned!" has the OP claiming that their behavior was acceptable or that they didn't believe it was bad enough to warrant a punishment.

Not, "If only I had more punishments to warn me". The 14-day ban is enough of a slap for most players to realize that Riot doesn't find their behavior acceptable.

If they didn't get the message after a 2-week ban, there's little chance of them getting the message at all.

I bet those people said 'ha, ban me' after being toxic all game.

Weathered6 votes

Possibly, but for some there is just no hope for reason.

Automated Riven5 votes

being completely honest. I have played league of legends almost daily for over six years. and I have never recieved a warning or so much as a chat restriction. So no I dont think its too harsh at all. And I have had my bad days where i have raged (rarely) and I have probably trashtalked more abusively then I should have) and somehow i havent ever managed to get myself banned. or chat restricted or whatever. And I am human also. So If i can do it so can other people is my thinking. being honest.

AninLegions7771 votes

The reason you don't get a chat restriction or ban is because you didn't say anything that the system flagged as "Extremely offensive". Passive aggression is still bad behaviour but can be overlooked.

Automated Riven2 votes

I'm honestly not even passive agressive. The majority of the chatting I do in game is banter with either my teammates or the enemy team. Usually before the 2 minute mark. Otherwise I speak up to try to get people to stop playing the blame game. Only once in a while tho

Votable Jester1 votes

Believe it or not, there are plenty of people who are generally kind-hearted and don't trigger the system because we don't troll, rage, insult players, or use inappropriate language (by which I mean racist shit, not little stuff like "fuck").

AninLegions7771 votes

Kind-hearted people can rage too. I've seen nice people rage in game cos they've had enough of a flamer's shit. Do you think it's fun watching someone take advantage of your niceness? You may say "mute and report him" but seeing as you'll only reduce your report value thanks to the new ingenious ways of flaming, there's no point.

YOU LOST LMAO4 votes

very well thought out and put together

vampirekid132 votes

I don't think that player exists. But I don't think going straight to 25 game chat restrictions followed by 2 and 4 week bans is a idea.

So I am all for it.

Maximum Morde2 votes

No. The people who get perma banned are the kind of people who don't understand that their actions are wrong. They'd get perma banned regardless due to their own ineptitude.

Athina2 votes

Personally, I do think that something like this could help out a few players. These would be the players who spend a lot on the game and are legitimately worried about losing their account. However, like you said, people are quick to just create a new account, so things probably wouldn't change much in the grand scheme of things. We would just end up with a lot more accounts on temporary suspensions instead of permanent ones in your proposed solution.

The ideal solution to the problem as whole in my eyes is to restrict account creation so that people cannot create a theoretically infinite number of throwaway accounts. I have no idea how Riot might implement that, but without it people can always come back regardless of the punishment systems in place, as long as they don't mind leveling a new account (or buying one I suppose).

Dynikus2 votes

they don't post about how Riot was wrong, nor do they beg for another chance

a majority of the threads I see about permabanned accounts are exactly that. usually along the format of:

Riot why did you ban me, I didn't do anything wrong. Sure I was toxic and broke the terms of use that I agreed to, but I spent a lot of money on my account and really don't think it was right to ban me because I don't think I was that bad. I only called him a few racial slurs and other derogatory terms, and told everyone to kill themselves. Plz rito unban!!1!

rarely do I see a player that actually admits they deserved their ban.

Votable Jester1 votes

Some people probably think you're exaggerating, but I've seen so many posts that are pretty much that.

They put up the chat logs and I just pull out some quote of theirs like "y'all motherfucking ni**ers need to uninstall this game you pieces of shit!!! I hope you and all your family get cancer!!!"

And they're just like "yeah I don't get what's wrong with that" or claim that there's some situation they were in where that was totally appropriate.

notice me Sin pi2 votes

most people who get permabanned often dont know that they are being toxic, or they just dont care

haha retard5 votes

im a previously permabanned player and i kinda agree with this, but in my defense theres a lot of people who passive aggressively flame which really just gets me going and pisses me off hense why ive been banned, i think that being permabanned has a lot of affects to the permabanned player though e.g. ranked isnt important anymore, feel like trolling every game, pissing people off for fun

some people think permanent bans are good but i disagree because it gives me more reason to flame and make your experience worse, not really good reasoning but its not competitive for me anymore because i dont have my main account so everything i grinded for was for nothing, although i did deserve my ban i just dont think permanent bans are constructive

MonkeyMadness2 votes

No, ok here's the issue with this bullshit system: people are being permabanned for piddly shit that shouldn't even be considered reportable.

Escalating punishments should only be warranted for escalating behavior. If the behavior improves, the punishment should reflect that. If the behavior remains constant, then that player should continue to receive the same degree of punishment. Obviously if signs of reform don't appear after a significantly long duration, then perhaps an escalation is warranted.

This is why having such a black and white justice system is pure cancer. Look at our legal system: we have a jury that determines guilt based on ALL EVIDENCE PRESENT, and a judge that determines sentencing based on a multitude of factors, not just how many times the defendant was convicted previously. But this is the thing that Riot utterly refuses to comprehend: CONTEXT. The context of a report is so critical in determining what is going on. That's why they used to have the Tribunal, so that peers could review the ENTIRE chat log of a game and determine whether or not the reported player really did something worthy of punishment. Now, there is a bot that scans through the chat log of the reported player (with all other chat absent from the log) to search for key words/phrases identified as "toxic". This is borderline unethical, and it really needs to stop. No other game does this, and for good reason: Riot has sufficiently created a fear of using the in-game chat function based on the fact that if you say anything "out of line" someone will report it, and you will get banned.

League players need to grow up a bit. Sure, report racism and sexism and all that hate speech shit, that needs to go, but when someone gives you criticism or tells you that you're feeding, either that person is right and you are creating a negative experience for your team (whether intentionally or not is irrelevant, feeding causes negativity), or that person is tilted and you should just ignore them (perhaps mute them) and move on. Reporting someone for telling you that you're bad is the real world equivalent of you going to your boss and telling on a coworker that called you a poopy head. Pretty fucking childish.

AninLegions7771 votes

Couldn't agree more. League players need to grow some skin. Nowadays the first hint of flame of my team and I mute. If I like watching them cry knowing I'll carry them late game, I'll leave them unmuted. Secondly tribunal was the best thing that happened to the game. When I join in Season 2 ish, there was absolutely no flaming from level 1 to 30. I didn't even know /allchat existed because my teammates back then were all nice people. Once tribunal went out and the automated system came in, the flamers started to show up knowing fully well that there was no AI in the world currently capable of adapting to the different methods of flaming, be it "kill yourself" or "kys" or "kill ys" or "k yourself". Riot keep releasing posts saying there's less toxicity now but they never say "relative to when tribunal was still functioning". I just hope that now that riot is answering the playerbase requests (winter SR hype), I hope they bring back tribunal.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

They won't bring it back. They are convinced that a quick decision is better than a fair one. As if there was no way to do both...

AninLegions7771 votes

Well that's probably what people who left during the early days of league said about the replay system. Yet here we are. It may take time, but I believe it will return.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

The replay system was just out of laziness. There were third party replay systems for years. I used to have on on my old computer. The fact that Riot didn't make an official one was simply out of their unwillingness to cater to the desires of the community.

As for the Tribunal, however, I sincerely believe it's gone for good. Riot spent tons of money and literally years perfecting the system we all currently love to hate, and they would consider a huge waste of resources if they just up and removed it in favor of the old system.

AninLegions7771 votes

Well you have a point. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

I think the real problem is here:

Then they get another chat restriction. Again, a few of their worse games come to mind, but they think to themselves "I've had this punishment before, it's not so bad."

Then comes the 2-week ban with its warning that the next punishment is a permanent ban. It's at this point that the player realizes they really need to change. While there are those that don't try to improve, there are also those that give it their all.

It's at the second punishment, that the player should get the message that this is serious and they really need to change. What if the system went like this? Keep in mind that the idea behind chat restrictions is to make the player think about how they're using their now-limited messages: to communicate about the game, or to flame their team?

  1. 10 game chat restriction
  • This is the early warning that "Hey, your behavior isn't OK."
  1. 2 week ban, followed by 25 game chat restriction
  • The ban is the real wake-up call to start reforming. The chat restrictions are there as a guide, to help the player on their road to reform, as I mentioned above.
  1. 12 hour ban, require the player to type "I understand that my next punishment will be a permanent ban." in order to continue playing
  • The main purpose here is to make sure the player knows they don't have any more chances. The temp ban is intended only to force the player to cool down and not ruin any more games in the heat of the moment.

I think this would solve the problem you bring up. However, I will admit that I am skeptical it would work. I feel like anyone who messes up once after a 2-week is going to mess up again after a 2-week and a last chance warning -- even if they're legitimately trying not to -- just because they lack self-control.

koreansmurf87512 votes

My main account is perma banned, and its all pretty much true. The thing that feels bad for me is that there were 2 people that were trolling me out of nowerhe and thats the game that resulted in my ban. One of the games, i was standing up for a teamamte while being toxic. Debatable. one of them was 100 percent my fault. Not arguable. This last game is what triggered my ban though and it just sucks

Great Muta1 votes

Yep, as always, Riot is more interested in targeting the people that respond to trolls/AFK's than the trolls/AFKers themselves.

Good luck having a 2 week suspension and not encountering 1 game where your whole team puts the blame on you and report requests for 6 months until you drop a level. Won't happen.

Votable Jester1 votes

/mute

If you say the minimum and ping important stuff, there's nothing they can ban you for.

Great Muta1 votes

Depends on your interpretation of negative attitude..

Votable Jester1 votes

I've played for several years, done this, and never received so much as a warning for anything other than afking (which was from the internet being knocked out).

DinkyBoat332 votes

you just summed up my past 6 years on this game. thank you and i I hope your suggestion get through because id really hate to see another player lose 6 years and 1000$ like me because someone was just too much a a jerk

MUSHROOM MIDGET1 votes

it wouldnt work. riot tantrum said they once did a thing where if you leveled an account to 20 without being toxic you could get your account back. and 95% of the people failed.

even a permaban doesnt affect behavior. and it doesnt get much harsher than that.

you just cant change someone's personality with video game punishments. it doesnt work.

DrCyanide1 votes

See my response to AeroWaffle on the level 20 challenge. I don't think the players I'm trying to target would have gotten banned by the old system in order to undergo the challenge in the first place.

I'm not looking to change someone's personality via punishments. What I'm looking to do is add a warning between the first "real" punishment (2 week ban) and permaban so that those players that are trying to improve, but ignored the slap-on-the-hand chat restriction, can have a better chance of changing themselves without losing their account.

MUSHROOM MIDGET1 votes

i dont think people change. we are who we are.

you can hold back for a while but not forever.

DrCyanide1 votes

People change all the time. You're not the same sobbing 3 year old you once were, nor are you the impatient 6 year old that thinks everything they say is the funniest joke ever told. You've learned and had experiences since then, causing you to changed since then. You continue to learn and have experiences, and as such you'll continue to change.

Potato Doc1 votes

So here is a bit of a history lesson for you all. The Romans had the same idea, make the punishment far scarier, and crimes will go down. These punishments include things like crucifixion which is considered one of the worst ways to die.

Did it work? According to historians not at all. Not only the public display of the people suffering during their punishment but the lingering of the body afterwards as an attempt to sway any trouble seekers did almost nothing to the crime rates.

In the same venue increasing punishment will only make people have harsher punishments, it will do little if nothing to the actual rate of punishment. I'm not against it, I am just saying history proves your point invalid.

DrCyanide1 votes

As I've pointed out before, historical examples of justice systems aren't the most applicable here. Most (including your own Roman example) rely on the assumption that people will be aware of the punishment affixed to the crime, attempting to use it as a deterrent. The punishment in those cases is used to make an example of the guilty.

In League, we have neither a widely publicized list of punishments, nor is the general public aware of ways to view the suffering of those who were punished. As such, the "threat" methods used by the Romans and other governments is meaningless.

In League people are notified of the law when they break it (or when they dig through the legalese of the ToS). It's kinda like driving on a stretch of open road with no speed limit sign. You see cars driving super slow, others zooming by and zipping in and out of lanes. If you're driving too fast, you get two warnings, but no indicator of how much above the speed limit you're going. You have hard time judging how far over you might be, as from your perspective you're not the fastest car but you're not the slowest either. You slow down after each time you've been pulled over, but you still get pulled over. The cop doesn't tell you the limit, only listing off how fast you've been driving recently. The third time you're pulled over you're given a ticket and told if you speed again your car will be impounded, right there on the spot. You slowed down when you got the warnings, but you slow way down after you get that ticket.

The comparison isn't perfect, but I think it's decent. I think a "ticket" earlier, or at least earlier warnings that a permaban is up ahead, would get people to make bigger steps in changing their behavior sooner, rather than trying to do it all at crunch time.

Dominick Destine1 votes

This entire thread is a bunch of @#%&

I was hit with a ZERO-TO-PERMABAN punishment for low-to-moderate toxicity. Explain that, cully.

Alpha Samsuni2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=YlE4kHYt,comment-id=001c,timestamp=2016-11-05T18:05:24.336+0000)

This entire thread is a bunch of @#%&

I was hit with a ZERO-TO-PERMABAN punishment for low-to-moderate toxicity. Explain that, cully.

you're still arguing about that?

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