Can we remove the "Hate Speech" category?

xtea·Apr 18, 2017·7 votes·1,874 views

The "Verbal Abuse" option serves the function adequately without the need to add a special sub-term, and it is enough to keep the more sensitive players content. The option reads as: Racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. The last part - the etc. - is quite vague, and sets a dangerous precedent when players are banned for hate speech even though they have never disparaged specific races or sexes, or possessed a fear of the same.

Since this is purely up to the choice of the corporation, I can only strongly suggest that they either entirely remove this arbitrary category or more succinctly clarify what it actually entails, though the former would be preferred. My argument is not only that it is covered under verbal abuse, but it further limits friendly interaction between players. Many words that are bannable under this category have been used by gamers for many years, and talking "sh*t", as it were, is a great gaming pastime as well as a mechanism by which players bond. And although the term implies that people who use these pejoratives are hateful, you will find the opposite to be true more often than not.

Just a thought. Discussion is encouraged. :)

104 Comments

RallerenPApr 18, 201713 votes

I've always seen the hate speech and verbal abuse as this:

Hate speech is toxicity towards some persons character - who they are as a person, something they can't change, and choices they have made. This is 150% unacceptable and should be punished harder than verbal abuse.

Verbal abuse is toxicity towards how people play. Calling people garbage and such. Generally being negative. Not as serious as hate speech. Still not acceptable, but less hard than hate speech because you can easily avoid this one.

When you report someone it's because they ruined your experience (except if you report someone falsely of course), and as such they should be punished. You don't get hurt by being unable to say specific offensive things, but other may get hurt if we allow it. Remember gaming is and should be for everyone and while others may see this as censorship, I see this as a way to help those already oppressed by real life. The system is not 100% effective but we strive for it, and it gets better everyday.

EDIT - To clarify I don't mean that everyone who uses hate speech is hateful, I often do it in private with my friends, whom I know won't get hurt by my words, in a joking manner. But I don't know who sees my messages when they are public and such take precautions to not cause unnecessary harm to others.

xteaApr 18, 20172 votes

It's nice and all that you see it that way, but it apppears as if you're just making the definitions more complex to justify the existence of a separate category. If you read what verbal abuse entails, it is clear that there is no need for another form of verbal abuse that puts race, sex, and sexual orientation on a pedestal.

And yes, you do get hurt by getting a 14-day ban for anything as harmless as lighthearted banter between friends.

Gaming has always been for everyone. The primary thing gamers care about when playing a game is trying to win; they're not concerned with another player's physical attributes. If someone is utilizing matters of race or what have you when talking trash, it is up to you to overcome it and immunize yourself. Controlling your emotions is just another skill you need to learn to get better at a game, and it should not be up to any company to protect you from that.

ModPeriscopeApr 18, 20176 votes

If someone is utilizing matters of race or what have you when talking trash, it is up to you to overcome it and immunize yourself

While I agree with this statement overall, you're using it to justify hate speech, much like the rest of your post.

At face value, hate speech in this game takes an unknown aspect of a player and seeks to create a divide based on both bias and unknown traits of that player. This runs counter to Riot's beliefs and any team-oriented game.

xteaApr 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

While I agree with this statement overall, you're using it to justify hate speech, much like the rest of your post.

At face value, hate speech in this game takes an unknown aspect of a player and seeks to create a divide based on both bias and unknown traits of that player. This runs counter to Riot's beliefs and any team-oriented game.

No I'm not, because the concept of hate speech doesn't exist.

If you agree with my message despite that little tidbit, fine. But explain what makes it so special over other forms of verbal abuse.

ModPeriscopeApr 18, 20176 votes

No I'm not, because the concept of hate speech doesn't exist.

Well then, I'm going to assume you know nothing of history. There are countless examples of marginalized groups and speech directed to attacking those groups.

To clarify what I said about agreeing with you, the best players ignore statements that do not assist them in winning, which includes hate speech.

it is up to you to overcome it and immunize yourself.

I would say the same if you don't agree with Riot's stance on this.

xteaApr 18, 20172 votes

Well then, I'm going to assume you no nothing of history. There are countless examples of marginalized groups and speech directed to attacking those groups.

Yes, and in those days, standing up for equal rights for legitimately oppressed groups would be the equivalent of today's "hate speech." It's a malleable term used to censor individuals that changes with the ages depending on what the masses find to be socially acceptable and unacceptable.

I would say the same if you don't agree with Riot's stance on this.

How can one immunize oneself to censorship? Your comparison is quite a stretch, but nice try.

ModPeriscopeApr 18, 20176 votes

Marginalizing hate speech is awful, and there's precedent to show that doing such leads to worse situations.

Hate speech exists, whether you want to admit it or not. Go to the Holocaust museum, look up apartheid, or more recently, the learn about the Rohingya, which is the World's most persecuted people in the world.

How can one immunize oneself to censorship? Your comparison is quite a stretch, but nice try.

Frankly, you seem to disagree that hate speech is a thing. That's fine, but Riot doesn't agree with you. If you're really going to stand with this idea, I find it odd you'd be interested in playing their game.

yukumariApr 18, 201710 votes

There's a big difference between calling someone "fucking garbage who needs to uninstal" and "a fucking "n!**er monkey who needs to go back to africa"

The first one is rude trash talk The second one is racist.

I think the punishment should be different accordingly.

Alphard92Apr 18, 20172 votes

Why? If one say i am a "%%%%%%" and i need to back to Africa i so not get offended. Simply because that's not an insult. Being called garbage is more offensive. Are you racist maybe?

AeroWaffleApr 18, 20177 votes

If one say i am a "%%%%%%" and i need to back to Africa i so not get offended. Simply because that's not an insult.

Yeah, that's still hate speech. Directing it only at yourself or no one in particular only makes it not verbal abuse. It can still be incredibly offensive. You're not the only person in the world that the hate speech generalizes.

Alphard92Apr 18, 20171 votes

What? How is it called black and African an insult? Again are you guys joking? It seems you are very racist

AMYS GRAVEApr 18, 20174 votes

N word has the same denotation as black, but study the history of slavery in the US and you'll see how different the connotation of those words is.

Calling someone black is a statement of their race. Calling someone the N word is a statement on their lack of rights to be a free human being, and basically says they need to be enslaved.

xteaApr 18, 20171 votes

No, in the gaming community, it just means you're an idiot. You know words can have multiple definitions, right?

AMYS GRAVEApr 18, 20175 votes

No, in the gaming community, it just means you're an idiot.

I agree, calling someone the N-word because you don't understand the historical implications of the word does show you're an idiot.

You know words can have multiple definitions, right?

Not with that word.

xteaApr 18, 20172 votes

I agree, calling someone the N-word because you don't understand the historical implications of the word does show you're an idiot.

Haha, funny. I was saying that the word itself means "idiiot" or the like.

Not with that word.

Why that word specifically? Why is it not subject to the evolutionary nature of language? You do know that the f----t word used to mean a bundle of sticks, right?

AMYS GRAVEApr 18, 20171 votes

And the swastika used to mean peace, but once a word/symbol gets associated with derogatory groups/actions/etc... it tends to drop all other meanings.

xteaApr 18, 20172 votes

Incorrect.

See: peanut gallery, hooligan, barbarian, vandal, hip hip hooray, bugger, cannibal, gyp, picnic, bad, etc.

AMYS GRAVEApr 18, 20172 votes

All of those are either still offensive, or were never offensive to begin with.

picnic for instance was derived from a french word, and not any racist connotations.

https://www.google.com/search?q=picnic+history&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

You're trying so hard but you don't understand the history of any of the words you're using.

xteaApr 18, 20171 votes

[deleted]

AMYS GRAVEApr 18, 20172 votes

And you say i'm being disingnuous?

You're either totally racist or trolling at this point.

xteaApr 18, 20173 votes

I get that it's hard to justify the abundant use of everyday words that once had racist or xenophobic connotations when you claim that words currently thought of as such cannot ever evolve under any circumstances, but I think it will all make sense if you just practice a little humility. It's fine, though, you can just throw around buzzwords so you don't feel bad for lacking an argument.

Sorry if I sound passive aggressive; rito's watching me like a hawk now, as evidenced by my nuked post.

Alphard92May 2, 20171 votes

Bro just leave these cancerous places of boards wich do nothing but enforce 1 main thinking and pollute your brain with nonsense. I tell you because you seems at least capable of rational thinking

Alphard92May 2, 20171 votes

"once a word/symbol gets associated with derogatory groups/actions/etc... it tends to drop all other meanings."

All those words have not lost all other meanings. Just read your previous post.

xteaApr 18, 20171 votes

I'm perplexed as to why, though, as they are both just examples of trashtalk. Does the inclusion of race make one more severe?

OleandervineApr 18, 20177 votes

{quoted}

I'm perplexed as to why, though, as they are both just examples of trashtalk. Does the inclusion of race make one more severe?

It's more severe because that kind of verbage is used in a particularly derogatory way to specifically put down and inhumanize other groups of people. Saying "Go to hell asshole" is poor behavior, and upsetting, but it's just generally distasteful and mean. Saying "Go to hell fa---t" is using deragtory language that was and still is used to make a subgroup of people feel inhuman and subpar to others, and carries a lot more heavier meaning in intent than just calling someone an "asshole." If you cannot respect the power of language and the meaning that words carry and have carried in the past, then don't use those words, especially if you are ignorant as to what they stand for or have been used for.

The biggest difference is that HATE is the motivator for word like ni---r and fa----t, where as words like "asshole" or "dick" are not generally motivated by hate. This is why it's called hate speech when you use specifically targeted derogatory language.

xteaApr 18, 20172 votes

Citations severely needed. How do you know hate is the motivation for players using those words? In the same line of reasoning, how isn't "asshole" or "dick" hateful? While we're at it, why does the motivation matter at all? Do spare me the historical context, as it's not particularly relevant in player interaction, especially considering none of us were alive when those words more commonly meant what you think they mean now.

OleandervineApr 18, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Citations severely needed. How do you know hate is the motivation for players using those words? In the same line of reasoning, how isn't "asshole" or "dick" hateful? While we're at it, why does the motivation matter at all? Do spare me the historical context, as it's not particularly relevant in player interaction, especially considering none of us were alive when those words more commonly meant what you think they mean now.

I'm 100% certain there are people alive in every age bracket that has experienced the derogatory usage of word like ni---r and fa----t, so your invalidation that it doesn't mean anything or carry hate is completely unfounded. Gay people are called fa---t all the time by ignorant bigots who seek to put them down and spew their hatred for them. Have you heard of Westboro Baptist Church? They use that kind of language all the time. Or how about we talk about black people in the south, where the KKK runs rampant and is a huge proponent of using ni---r to put down the black people they interact with. You should seek to educate yourself and become less ignorant of the continued use of hate speech in modern times.

As for how you know the motivation behind speech - you don't, and that is the entire problem. If there is even the slightest chance that your language can be severely misinterpreted, don't use that language at all.

xteaApr 18, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I'm 100% certain there are people alive in every age bracket that has experienced the derogatory usage of word like ni---r and fa----t, so your invalidation that it doesn't mean anything or carry hate is completely unfounded. Gay people are called fa---t all the time by ignorant bigots who seek to put them down and spew their hatred for them. Have you heard of Westboro Baptist Church? They use that kind of language all the time. Or how about we talk about black people in the south, where the KKK runs rampant and is a huge proponent of using ni---r to put down the black people they interact with. You should seek to educate yourself and become less ignorant of the continued use of hate speech in modern times.

As for how you know the motivation behind speech - you don't, and that is the entire problem. If there is even the slightest chance that your language can be severely misinterpreted, don't use that language at all.

Well, xir, welcome to the gaming community, where ni---r and fa---t both mean "jerk" because we're so progressive that we removed racial and other group-related elements from those words. Please leave your ideology at the door and have a wonderful time competing with each other.

But yes, I'm aware of those organizations and (big surprise) I don't find myself agreeing with them too much. The same goes for the more modern, mainstream equivalent of the KKK known as BLM. You have to understand that I care so little about the concept of race, despite these organizations and others such as yourself trying so hard to make me.

To wrap it up, though, if you don't know the motivation, then you cannot call it hate speech. Case closed.

P.S. And no, I will not prevent myself from using language, because there is always a chance that it can be misinterpreted.

OleandervineApr 18, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Well, xir, welcome to the gaming community, where ni---r and fa---t both mean "jerk" because we're so progressive that we removed racial and other group-related elements from those words. Please leave your ideology at the door and have a wonderful time competing with each other.

But yes, I'm aware of those organizations and (big surprise) I don't find myself agreeing with them too much. The same goes for the more modern, mainstream equivalent of the KKK known as BLM. You have to understand that I care so little about the concept of race, despite these organizations and others such as yourself trying so hard to make me.

To wrap it up, though, if you don't know the motivation, then you cannot call it hate speech. Case closed.

P.S. And no, I will not prevent myself from using language, because there is always a chance that it can be misinterpreted.

That's a two way street. If you don't know the motivation, you can't rule out hate either, hence is why it's offensive. And what I've been saying isn't ideology. It's basic human decency. If you can't entertain yourself and interact with other humans without being derogatory or using language that can be severely misconstrued to them, that's your issue, and you should refrain from social interaction until you better yourself to the point where you can be civil. People aren't asking you to change your mind. They're asking you to watch your tongue and be civil on the internet.

AeroWaffleApr 18, 20173 votes

The way I see it;

Verbal abuse is insults and/or harrassment towards a specific person;

"Wow, uninstall the game please" "Go to hell, you probably got this account boosted".

and so on.

While Hate speech is reserved for just any form of bigotry, not necessarily directed at anyone in the game.

"I fucking hate <racial slur here>" "Sent them running like <other racial slur here with an insulting stereotype>"

and so on.

Yes, you're likely to see verbal abuse if someone is ill-tempered enough to spout hate-speech, but it is different things.

As for this;

Many words that are bannable under this category have been used by gamers for many years, and talking "sh*t", as it were, is a great gaming pastime as well as a mechanism by which players bond. And although the term implies that people who use these pejoratives are hateful, you will find the opposite to be true more often than not.

You don't know these people. You don't know if they find <racial slur X> incredibly offensive. That's the sort of thing that you should avoid until you know that they're comfortable with it (like when it's only between friends).

And the internet was (and often continues to be) an example of how poor many people behave once they don't risk losing their job or being punched in the face. I for one embrace every movement towards raising the expectations of internet behavior towards real-life conversation.

xteaApr 18, 20171 votes

You don't know these people. You don't know if they find <racial slur X> incredibly offensive. That's the sort of thing that you should avoid until you know that they're comfortable with it (like when it's only between friends).

But why should I care?

Kei143Apr 18, 20173 votes

The reverse question is: why would you not take care of your speech and not use hate speech?

xteaApr 18, 20172 votes

Because I'm autistic and don't see how words can possible harm someone.

Kei143Apr 18, 20173 votes

that's fine if you are really austist.

Just remember that there currently isn't any policy in regarding the mentally disabled, thus you have to play with the same rules as everyone that doesn't have an illness.

Which means that you can use hate speech, you can harass, just be prepared to pay the consequences when they do come down with the punishment hammer.

AeroWaffleApr 18, 20177 votes

It's called empathy and civility.

xteaApr 18, 20171 votes

No, it's called pathological altruism. The difference is that basic empathy is normal, healthy, and doesn't harm anyone.

Also, not an argument.

AeroWaffleApr 18, 20171 votes

Fine. Here's the argument that I think you'll understand because if effects you.

You should care because Riot will ban you if you use hate speech.

xteaApr 18, 20171 votes

I know, and I'm trying to change that. Not an argument.

AeroWaffleApr 18, 20172 votes

You refusing to accept it doesn't make it not an argument. The rules are clear. Hate speech is not tolerated.

It's a policy that's much less likely to budge than the general, "don't be a dick" rules.

xteaApr 18, 20171 votes

You're right; the fact that you're appealing to authority makes it a non-argument. Let me unpack this so that you may better understand.

When slavery was legal in the states, a minority of free citizens opposed it. It did not make them in the wrong just because the law said otherwise. Does this make sense to you? Spare me the outrage over comparing my work to the work of quakers, if you can help yourself; it was just a really easy comparison.

AeroWaffleApr 18, 20172 votes

Are you really using an example of people opposing racism and unequal treatment, to attempt to argue that you should be free to spout racism and derogatory terms?

Spare me the outrage over comparing my work to the work of quakers,

It's just so damn baffling that you can't see the hypocrisy.

xteaApr 18, 20171 votes

Hah! It's like clockwork. I made a point, you ignored it and derailed.

I'll try once against, and try to stay with me. If you found a rule... to be morally reprehensible... would it be wrong... for you... to disagree... with it?

AeroWaffleApr 18, 20172 votes

I really can't understand you.

You are attempting to argue that you find it morally reprehensible that you're being punished for being racist and using derogatory remarks.

Do you get what you're saying?

You are upset that you are being shunned when you have morally reprehensible behavior

No. You're not going anywhere worthwhile with your argument. Modern civilized society as a whole has agreed that racism and derogatory remarks born from racism is bad.

xteaApr 18, 20172 votes

Is it really that hard to just answer the question? I'm responding to your "because the rules say this, you shouldn't criticize it" argument. We can go back to whatever you want afterwards. Promise. ;)

AeroWaffleApr 19, 20171 votes

Why should I answer? Your question is a loaded question.

Either answer implies that punishing someone for racist remarks is morally reprehensible. Which it isn't.

xteaApr 19, 20172 votes

No, sir, this is a separate conversation - are you with me? - that you started when you outright said that refusing to accept established rules is wrong for unspecified reasons.

You refusing to accept it doesn't make it not an argument. The rules are clear.

So, unfortunately for you, we've got to tackle that before moving on. You know, see if you're consistent in your beliefs that authority is always correct and you should never oppose it. You're welcome to point out any logical inconsistencies of my own that you see; often people need a helping hand from others to see past their own biases.

scazzmanApr 18, 20172 votes

in all honesty. the only thing that makes something "right" or "wrong" is simply how many people agree with you. if enough people thought rape and murder were okay, it would become so

RandomoniumApr 18, 20177 votes

If this was true then women would still be second class citizens and blacks would still be slaves and it would be impossible to have any type of social justice or civil rights movent. Something isn't right or wrong based on popularity. Right and wrong are based on fundamental laws of logic. We may be a stupid species that takes a couple thousand years to realize that we shouldn't treat someone like shit just because of their gender or their race but that doesn't mean that things like right or wrong are subjective.

AMYS GRAVEApr 18, 20172 votes

http://thewallmachine.com/files/1441934151.jpg

Getting Kantian up in this bitch!