On the topic of "Harsh Tonage/Toxicity" when typing.

Not A Cass Main·2/14/2018, 11:14:35 AM·4 votes·482 views

Hey everyone! I want to start a discussion about the chat restriction criterion, as well as the "Fairness"/"subjectivity" of it all.

Having been on the receiving end of a chat restriction recently (I had someone in my game be extremely toxic so I Responded by complaining, but not necessarily being toxic in its own right) I really wanted to get opinions on what everyone deems actual toxic behavior.

The questions are as follows:

What is "Toxic" to you?

Is complaining necessarily toxic?(Give reasoning for or against)

Is being blunt considered toxicity?

Because people grow up with differing values, does the subjectivity of what is "nice" and what is "toxic" have any relevancy?

Based on the above question, while "if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all" is essentially the golden rule of conversation, does this not discriminate against those who don't have filters? (I for example have Aspergers syndrome, and as such it is difficult for me to read situations correctly)

A followup to the above question: Society as a whole, in order for it to operate, must place rules on those within it. One of the biggest issues affecting our current generation is that they must operate within two distinct societies, The Global one(internet) and the centralized one (country/state/city). The disconnect here is that centralized values often don't carry over well into the global. For an easy example, connotations and context vary between the usage of the "F" word, and its variability goes from DANG to insert negative connotation here. Is there a work around for this? And as a followup, does turning off the chat filter inherently mean "I consent to these words being around me?"

Is the connotation of a word relevant, even when a positively connotative word is used as an insult?

Followup to the above: are insults in general subjective or are they completely objective in a "This is obviously an insult" way.

Is negativity in general toxic?

The protocol, in general, is to mute people that are being toxic. And to just move on with your day. I have met people that are entirely incapable of doing so, and have fallen pray to it myself on occasion. Does responding to toxicity with toxicity mean you are as at fault as the offending party?

My logic here is that in the court of law defending oneself is allowed up to and including the level of force used by the opposing party, and this is due to the fact that no human being can reasonably be expected to not defend their person. For some people, defending themselves extends to their mental space, and as such they will be incapable of just walking away. Is a system that says they are just at fault discriminatory? or is it fair? (I personally have mixed feelings on this one, which is why I think its a cool discussion)

Please keep it civil in the comments, and I would love to hear your opinions!!!

PS: ( to the mods/admins, I know that you all have VERY set in stone ideas of what is toxic/what is not, but I would prefer you give an honest opinion about what you think here rather than cut and paste reasoning)

Lastly I have somewhat of an opinion piece/suggestion: Personally I feel that what is or isn't toxic should be on display within the client as a dropdown menu, maybe within an honour interface itself. This could help clarify some of the issues above, and could maybe also help with a cohesion within the community. In another game I used to play, punishment was partially given to the player base. When a moderator came across a report that could be considered subjective, he put it into a polling space and asked the playerbase to help him decide if a punishment was merited given context. This made players feel as if they were actively making their community better, and I would like to personally suggest a system like this. Maybe only individuals with 5 honour can participate? would be a cool little addition!

11 Comments

Jo0o2/14/2018, 3:47:57 PM6 votes

I view any use of chat designed purely to lessen somebody's enjoyment of the game to be toxic. Essentially, chat can be productive, neutral, or toxic. Of course, the toxicity should reach a certain threshold before a chat restriction is given.

For example, I had a match the other day with a Thresh support that couldn't do a damn thing. Barely any hooks landed, or even flays. Hell, he'd die in the middle of the enemy team without ulting. It was immensely frustrating, because as a Yorick top I need to be either split pushing or having enemy champs CC'd and served up to me in a team fight, but I couldn't count on either strategy working because our source of CC offered zero actual impact. I was tempted to say "Thresh, feel free to land a single hook this game" or similar, but ultimately I kept my mouth shut. Harping on somebody's poor performance won't suddenly make them into a better player. All it does allow somebody to derive pleasure in making another person feel bad, which is toxic to a team-based video game.

I miss The Verdict, I think it helped spread knowledge of acceptable chat conduct. Riot should have invested more resources in keeping it going.

HalcyonDweller2/14/2018, 6:38:12 PM3 votes

You raise a lot of good questions here, I'll try and address each portion efficiently. All of these are - of course - just my opinions, but they are opinions I believe strongly in. I'm open to hearing your thoughts on them and discussing them with you.

[{quoted}](name=Not A Cass Main,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=X2o3pNNa,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-02-14T11:14:35.467+0000)

The questions are as follows:

What is "Toxic" to you?

As Jo0o stated, saying things that only serve to worsen another player's experience.


Is complaining necessarily toxic?(Give reasoning for or against)

No. Complaining is not toxic, in-fact it can even be cathartic. But it depends on how it is used. If you use it to complain about the other team then it's not a big deal, but if you complain about your teammates then you're just worsening their experience and hurting your team's ability to cooperate overall.


Is being blunt considered toxicity?

It's not toxic necessarily, but it does toe the line (in part because everyone has a different perception of what is blunt and it is easy to disagree over this).

Regardless it is ill-advised. See my next answer as to why.


Because people grow up with differing values, does the subjectivity of what is "nice" and what is "toxic" have any relevancy?

Absolutely, and the reason is surprisingly unrelated to values. In a competitive team environment like League, you need cooperation - well you don't, but it's a huge advantage and if you have it and your enemy team does not then you're a lot more likely to win than them.

Whether your values differ from your teammates' values doesn't actually matter, because if anybody on the team is sensitive then being blunt or pointing fingers will practically guarantee that your team's cooperation gets flushed down the drain. Blaming and arguing over something that already happened only serves to distract from decisions that need to be made about plays in the future, which means your team will be less prepared and coordinated for those plays, and thus more likely to mess those plays up and hand a win to the enemy. So it is better to never be blunt and give your teammates the opportunity to be overly-sensitive. More on techniques related to this in a later comment (I have a whole blurb for the subject and I've already hit the character limit).

In the end, you need to weigh your options. You can have the brief catharsis of writing a really good zinger at that teammate who's been pissing you off, or you can maintain the team's cooperation and focus on the next plays, and thus preserve your best chances of winning the game.


Based on the above question, while "if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all" is essentially the golden rule of conversation, does this not discriminate against those who don't have filters? (I for example have Aspergers syndrome, and as such it is difficult for me to read situations correctly)

This is a good point, and as someone who struggles to filter their emotions I think that you might be right, it may discriminate a little bit. But I've also found that with other limitations in my life, with enough work and practice I have been able to overcome them and I have become better for it. In league specifically, working through or around that filter problem can lead to better teamwork skills overall and more wins in future games.


A followup to the above question: Society as a whole, in order for it to operate, must place rules on those within it. One of the biggest issues affecting our current generation is that they must operate within two distinct societies, The Global one(internet) and the centralized one (country/state/city). The disconnect here is that centralized values often don't carry over well into the global. For an easy example, connotations and context vary between the usage of the "F" word, and its variability goes from DANG to insert negative connotation here. Is there a work around for this? And as a followup, does turning off the chat filter inherently mean "I consent to these words being around me?"

Is the connotation of a word relevant, even when a positively connotative word is used as an insult?

Followup to the above: are insults in general subjective or are they completely objective in a "This is obviously an insult" way.

I think that all of this comes back down to what I said above, about weighing options and what brings about the most cooperation and success. Things being subjective, or having different connotations for different people doesn't really matter too much. If it is something that carries a negative connotation in some views, then in saying it you run the risk of damaging that cooperation and hampering that success.

In a world where everyone is different and cultures and ideals clash, you will find the most success where you can find common ground and maintain cooperation despite those differences.


Is negativity in general toxic?

It depends. It is sort of a sliding scale. Being generally negative or complaining about having a difficult time in lane is not toxic in my opinion. But depending on how severely you do it, and depending on if you also blame others for it, it can cross that line into worsening other players' experiences. Minor negativity is not toxic. Severe negativity probably is though.


The protocol, in general, is to mute people that are being toxic. And to just move on with your day. I have met people that are entirely incapable of doing so, and have fallen pray to it myself on occasion. Does responding to toxicity with toxicity mean you are as at fault as the offending party?

I think it is important to recognize a distinction between our personal reaction and our response to the person. It is perfectly rational and fair to become upset when someone wrongs us. That is never in question. However it is most certainly not okay to do wrong to others, regardless of how upset we are. So no, it does not mean we are equally at-fault as them, but we are definitely still responsible for our own behavior and choices.

The nature of the beast is that people are quick to anger, quick to blame, and quick to get defensive. Everyone is the main character in their own life, and often times when someone else is toxic to us, it is because they perceived that we did something wrong to them, just as our own reaction is due to them doing something wrong to us. This cycle of revenge can begin when one person arbitrarily perceives wrongdoing against them by the other person, and each side reacts to each transgression with worse and worse escalations in revenge. The escalations hamper teamwork and cooperation, and they subject the other 3 teammates to the annoyance at the same time, thus it serves to worsen the game experience for others and does nothing to help the team win the match.

I saw crap like this happen all the time in my 6th grade class. One kid would piss another kid off, so that kid would pinch the other kid back. But the other kid would think that pinching was going too far in retaliation, so they would punch the first kid to settle the score. One day this escalated so much that a kid got stabbed in the hand with a pencil.

Due to the nature of this cycle of revenge, Riot is forced to punish all toxicity equally, because that way there is no confusion as to whether or not it is okay to say those sorts of things. If it were okay in some circumstances then people might try to justify it (and they already do) when they should not have done it regardless.


My logic here is that in the court of law defending oneself is allowed up to and including the level of force used by the opposing party, and this is due to the fact that no human being can reasonably be expected to not defend their person. For some people, defending themselves extends to their mental space, and as such they will be incapable of just walking away. Is a system that says they are just at fault discriminatory? or is it fair? (I personally have mixed feelings on this one, which is why I think its a cool discussion)

I agree with you this is a very cool discussion to have. Legally speaking, defending oneself is limited to physical danger to one's person. But with more and more of peoples' activities and interactions occurring over the internet now, the danger is more often mental and very rarely physical. As it stands I do not think that defending oneself verbally is supported by legal precedent, however I do think that there may be a need in the near future for this sort of thing to be addressed within the law.


Lastly I have somewhat of an opinion piece/suggestion: Personally I feel that what is or isn't toxic should be on display within the client as a dropdown menu, maybe within an honour interface itself. This could help clarify some of the issues above, and could maybe also help with a cohesion within the community. In another game I used to play, punishment was partially given to the player base. When a moderator came across a report that could be considered subjective, he put it into a polling space and asked the playerbase to help him decide if a punishment was merited given context. This made players feel as if they were actively making their community better, and I would like to personally suggest a system like this. Maybe only individuals with 5 honour can participate? would be a cool little addition!

I approve of your suggestion, however it seems to me like this is a lot like the tribunal that used to be a part of the punishment system several years ago. Unfortunately it didn't work so well, and so Riot did away with it and replaced it with a more automated system. I think that some form of tribunal still has merit as at least a partial solution, but it will require a large tech overhaul to make it feasible and efficient enough to work. Let me know if you want to discuss this or even collaborate on a post about it, I have plenty of ideas for such an overhaul.

Umbral Regent2/14/2018, 12:45:56 PM2 votes

So, I rather like this discussion from the gate, as it opens up a little further a layer of the punishment system that has, in passing, been mentioned and known, which is partial subjectivity in an otherwise objective system.

In other words, the system itself works objectively, but the actual requirements for a punish are ostensibly subjective - someone has to find another player worth reporting, and consequently report them, in order to trigger a review and potential punishment.

But, I wouldn't want to ramble on on that too soon, so, I'mma get to those questions.


What is "Toxic" to you?

To me, obsessive negativity and excessive flame is toxic, and of course those two things characterize toxicity in that regard. It's sort of a tricky thing to discern between people (as you mentioned, many people have different upbringings and different values, so, what's toxic to one is mild to another), but I find it safest to avoid labelling folks as toxic unless they hit a fairly high bar of negativity/misbehavior.

Suffice it to say, even out of the majority of people I've seen post on the boards about their punishments, only an immodest handful can really be considered toxic in my eyes. Those few are often delusional, thinking they're in the right, or just incorrigible jerks who really don't care one way or the other, they just live to hate.

Is complaining necessarily toxic?(Give reasoning for or against)

It's tricky for me to answer this one, but, I'd personally say that complaining, for the most part, isn't toxic. It can get there, certainly - like a TF top lane complaining all game long about Ornn - but beyond that, I figure it's mostly okay to complain. Of course, the boundary between modest, moderate, and excessive complaining can be a very thin one, so, I'm not sure I could honestly speak on it much.

Is being blunt considered toxicity?

This is kind of a half-and-half, honestly. Being blunt in general is sure to irritate most people, but in and of itself, bluntness isn't toxic. Moreover, I find that the issue is, most people who speak bluntly don't quite know how to be tactful about what they say. It's the difference between "man, you suck as Jhin" and "looks like you have trouble with those long-range skillshots".

Of course, the former (and being blunt in general) is fairly easy to do in League, considering the fast pace of gameplay and intense focus requirements make communication sparse and necessitates being quick, but altogether I think many could benefit from a little better wording.

(...i think i kinda digressed there a bit. whoops.)

Because people grow up with differing values, does the subjectivity of what is "nice" and what is "toxic" have any relevancy?

This goes back to what I mentioned in the first two paragraphs, but the short answer is - yes, personal values and subjectivity does have some relevancy in the punishment system, although it is ultimately held up to an overarching standard set by Riot and the community at large.

Where the subjectivity applies is to the moment-to-moment games, and players' decisions to report others. That's where the subjectivity ends, and the objectivity begins, but, it still ultimately relies on that subjective "I don't like how this player acted" for the system to investigate and act.

This is where some confusion comes into play (particularly from players who get punished, especially in cases of hate speech), wherein Player A gets punished for hate speech (let's say using racial slurs as though they meant "friend" or whatever instead of being an insult), and gets confused about why the system punished him, when, say, Player B also used hate speech (before, during, after, whenever), and has yet to see punishment.

What Player A doesn't realize is that Player B very likely hasn't been reported for hate speech yet, potentially because they were in premades or something of the like, and that the only prerequisite for a player getting punished is for them to be reported - so, obviously, no one took issue with Player B using hate speech in whatever matches, but someone did with Player A.

And that is the case of subjectivity in an otherwise objective system - and, I know that the whole "hate speech case" thing is a bit of an edge one, but it does at least serve to show where that subjectivity in defining what's toxic and what's nice comes into play. One could think up numerous other cases for examples - someone's complaining, does anyone feel they warrant being punished for it? Do people find it unacceptable? Etc.

TL;DR, though - yes. Subjectivity on what's okay and what isn't, player-to-player, is very relevant to the system, in a fairly large sense.


Based on the above question, while "if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all" is essentially the golden rule of conversation, does this not discriminate against those who don't have filters? (I for example have Aspergers syndrome, and as such it is difficult for me to read situations correctly)

I'm not sure exactly, but, I want to say "no". Albeit, I'm neurotypical as far as I know, so, take what I say with a grain of salt as I speak from no prior experience with disabilities, disorders, and so on, but, as far as I can tell, everyone who plays League of Legends is held to the same standards of conduct, regardless of anything.

And, some may say it's discriminatory, but, in all honesty, I think it's fair. After all, non-neurotypical people are still people. They're not defined by their maladies or disabilities. ('course, again, neurotypical, I don't have any personal issues or ailments that would cause me in some respect to infringe on the rules, so, again, grain of salt.)

In all honesty, though, I can't really say much on this matter, both from personal experience, and out of respect to those with lives and issues different to mine.

For an easy example, connotations and context vary between the usage of the "F" word, and its variability goes from DANG to insert negative connotation here. Is there a work around for this? And as a followup, does turning off the chat filter inherently mean "I consent to these words being around me?"

I'm going to assume by "the 'F' word", you mean "fuck". That's more or less an easy thing, as the rule generally just boils down to "you're allowed to curse as much as you want, as long as you don't level those swears against another player". I can say "Fuck, I missed my ult", "shit, that didn't work", and even "Fuck Akali.", and I'm not really going to face punishment. That last example is...Ehh, but, as long as you aren't spamming or being really inflammatory about it, you can say "fuck that Champion" about...Just about anyone.

But, when you start cursing to insult and chew out other players, it becomes a problem. "how can you be so shit at this game that you can't even win lane as Garen", "fucking feeders", "you're an asshole" - etc., those are examples of problematic and punishable uses of swears. Of course, that rule "say what you want as long as you don't insult/attack other players with your chat" kinda covers pretty much all the chat in general, but, some people have misconceptions about the rules regarding swearing.

As for the Mature Language Filter, it's not really a matter of consenting to the words being around players, but rather, turning off the Mature Language Filter is really just saying "I know the words, I don't care to see them. If they're an issue, they're an issue, but I'll go unfazed".

'Course, there are some people who prefer the Mature Language Filter being on for one reason or another, but, I don't know them, and I don't know their reasons, so, I can't speak on that.

Is the connotation of a word relevant, even when a positively connotative word is used as an insult?

I feel as though the IFS doesn't care about connotation, much like it doesn't care about context, so, if a word is used as an insult, it's still an insult. The IFS will likely read it as such. And, of course, one can go back to the "hate speech case" earlier, and have another example of connotation being tossed aside, but, again, that's a tad faulty to refer to as hate speech in general is considered zero tolerance chat, so it's punished regardless of connotation, context, or whatever else.

Though, I can imagine at least one example of a positively connotative word used somewhat as an insult? Like, being called "a dandy". I'm not sure how it'd register in the IFS, but, I mean. I wouldn't report it. (although that goes back to the topic of subjectivity in an objective punishment system, so, once again - I digress.)

Followup to the above: are insults in general subjective or are they completely objective in a "This is obviously an insult" way.

Like above, it sorta plays into the whole subjectivity of reporting other players, but, I think subjective insults would probably have less of an impact on one's standing in the punishment system than objective ones. Moreover - not all insults are treated the same, and some could ultimately wind up with players getting punished faster than others.


Is negativity in general toxic?

Nope. One can be a negative nancy, a pessimist, what have you - but, as long as you can moderate yourself and prevent it from becoming an issue, you won't likely be punished for it, and even then, you won't be considered toxic for it.

This response is getting too long, so I'll continue on in this comment string with another response. Part 1 ends here.

Kaioko2/14/2018, 3:41:22 PM2 votes

At the end of the day the court of law does not apply here (also the whole eye for an eye thing Kayle hasn't applied in 300 years) The only time that changes and you're allowed to defend yourself in when your life is in physical danger.

What is toxic is actually quite a simple concept in most private businesses. It's when you as a consumer of the product start being more of a burden than a source of income. Source of income does not just mean money; just by playing the game you increase it's popularity and competitiveness and therefore it's value (think Facebook). However when you start to cause an unpleasant experience to a large amount of players, the benefits you provide start to be outweighed by the burden.

Toxicity is a fluid thing; it's not what you judge as acceptable, but rather what others judge as acceptable around you. The best rule of thumb is if you feel like talking and acting like that in a nice restaurant would get you thrown out (another private business example) don't do it in League either or the same thing will happen.

MachstDuBierHase2/14/2018, 11:52:18 AM1 votes

Me personaly, I use the phrase ~Dude youre just toxic fairly often - knowing well that I might get a chat restriction for that.

Explaining to ppl the difference between active and passive Inting (letting your teammates die because you are a scared chicken or are simply so bad you dont have the game awareness how to handle a situation is still inting, passive but inting and therefor feeding).

Trying to be argumentive and explaining stuff to ppl is often a waste a time, because these garbage players really do not care about my point of view and we do fully know that Riot Games only cares about positive attitudes.

Beeing communitative, or t rying to explain some basics to someone can be considered negative and therefor result in a Ban.

All thus said and giving the fact that Rito expects me to teach lesser or unskilled players how to play puts me in a spot where I feel uncomfortable .

Dr Cat Pooch2/16/2018, 3:25:35 AM1 votes

I'm not going to get into all of your questions. I do want to point out that you are wrong about the self-defense justification, legally. One of the key parts is whether the party claiming self-defense had an opportunity to not engage and escape. The only time this is not the case is if the other person is using deadly force, which is never going to be the case in terms of someone raging at you. In league, our option to escape is the mute function. You have to use it.

ModPeriscope2/14/2018, 3:03:59 PM1 votes

What I define as toxic is anything that is bothersome or insulting.

As for defending yourself, there's rarely a positive outcome to conversing with toxic players. Typically, this just places you in the wrong, as responding with toxicity can get you punished.

I don't think Riot clarifies rules because they don't want to influence how we report players. This goes back to what we define as toxic, as that definition varies from person to person.

EL HAMSTERO2/14/2018, 6:53:04 PM1 votes

if anyone does anything that slightly annoys me like taking a cs, stealing a kill, picking a bad champion, building the wrong item, or talking to me, then they are toxic and need to be punished immediately.

swordofsun2/15/2018, 5:06:45 PM1 votes

I won't repeat what other people have said better, but my 2 cents:

One of the things people tend to forget/not understand is that it's not about them. It's about the team. LOL is a team game and at the bare minimum (unless you're in a custom 1v1) TT game you have at least three people on a team. Anything toxic being done to one person on the team is being seen/felt by everyone on the team.

This is why 'defending myself' arguments are BS in my opinion. People like to bring up real world laws about physical defense so: If you defend yourself from being punched by putting someone else in the way of the punch you're not excused for that innocent bystander being punched. Now you're in trouble for them being punched. This is what people arguing and flaming back against toxic behavior to 'defend themselves' are doing. They're pulling the rest of the team into the way of the punch. Now they are responsible for the innocent bystanders getting punched.

The self defense option for chat toxicity is there: the mute button. It's brilliant, it stops a person from having to deal with the immediate problem, and it doesn't drag the team into the flames.

Other toxicity is harder to defend against. Sometimes it's just waiting out the 15 minutes and surrendering as a team. Sometimes it's winning despite the troll. Sometimes it's losing, but making the other team really work for that 4v5 win. Making it a 3v5 or a 1v9 doesn't help anybody.

That's my definition of toxicity: Does this help the team win the game? Does using a term that I know is considered offensive help at all? Does yelling at someone for dying help anyone? Does swallowing my teammate as TahmKench and throwing them into the fountain do anything? If you're not helping to win the game you're contributing to it's loss and that's probably toxic.