Be nice.

occasionalutopia·Nov 12, 2017·32 votes·1,973 views

Please be kind to each other on this game. There is another human on the other side, not a robot.

70 Comments

redniwediSNov 12, 201710 votes

Be nice to the robots too, there's no harm in treating them well.

ModDaenrysTargaryenNov 12, 20177 votes

+1, to many people are not nice in theses games as they value winning over fun... i know some people only have fun if they win and thats fine, just dont be mean to people when you are not having fun.

KazaJhodoNov 12, 20173 votes

{quoted}

+1, to many people are not nice in theses games as they value winning over fun... i know some people only have fun if they win and thats fine, just dont be mean to people when you are not having fun.

If you're feeding, expect to get shit on. You should get shit on. Even if you don't realize you are feeding. If thats the case then you just don't belong in the elo.

If you want nice and fun, goto normals, no one should care how you perform over there.

ModDaenrysTargaryenNov 12, 20172 votes

??? The OP nor I said anything about feeding or ranked or were even referring to that.

KarunamonNov 12, 20171 votes

If thats the case then you just don't belong in the elo.

Not your decision to make - that's what the ranking system is for.

KazaJhodoNov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Not your decision to make - that's what the ranking system is for.

Agreed. Still means its not working as well as it could. Just because its not my decision doesn't mean the decision is wrong. Its still unhealthy for the game.

ModUlanopoNov 12, 20172 votes

If you're feeding, expect to get shit on. You should get shit on.

This is very much not okay.

KazaJhodoNov 12, 20172 votes

{quoted}

This is very much not okay.

Why not? If you're feeding you are shitting on your teammates, so why shouldn't they return it in kind? The person feeding is the offender, they are causing the problem. Or the smurf pounding them, or they shouldn't be in the elo- or were mismatched, whatever. Any of those are a matching issue.

If your argument is they aren't doing it on purpose, I get that. Then they should be in an elo where all the players play like that. Which is riot's responsibility. Not on purpose doesn't matter, it results in the same thing, intentional or not. Don't be surprised when players get frustrated and flame. Anyone is going to eventually become frustrated when it keeps happening over and over and over. Especially when we feel as though not enough is being done about it and we're not heard.

Eventually if its not fixed we'll just have to stop playing a fantastic game. I'm speaking up because I want to see this addressed. Certainly not for more censoring.

Plus censoring/banning is a band-aid, its not addressing the core issue that causes what is censored, the real problem. If people were lowered elo for their behavior I could see that working as it would balance the ladder. Obviously tricky to code, and thats an huge understatement.

Do you mind addressing riots stance on toxic play vs toxic behavior/chat? I'm disappointed that something that can be muted is gathering so much attention/response while something we can do nothing about as players is seemingly unaddressed.

Obviously I could've easily missed it being addressed. In game it feels completely rampant. I get how difficult it is to address this issue, tons of variables at play- I'm just curious if there is a stance of action, strategy, plan. This is also based on my years of play, not simply pre-season. Craziness is expected in preseason.

I've seen pro streamers commenting on how difficult games feel lately, expressing the same feelings I've been having. Its really taking the fun out of the game and replacing it with struggle. I mean, the way the system works in general is kinda backwards in some large respects, but thats a completely different huge topic.

EvilDustManNov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Why not? If you're feeding you are shitting on your teammates, so why shouldn't they return it in kind? The person feeding is the offender, they are causing the problem. Or the smurf pounding them, or they shouldn't be in the elo- or were mismatched, whatever. Any of those are a matching issue.

If your argument is they aren't doing it on purpose, I get that. Then they should be in an elo where all the players play like that. Which is riot's responsibility. Not on purpose doesn't matter, it results in the same thing, intentional or not. Don't be surprised when players get frustrated and flame. Anyone is going to eventually become frustrated when it keeps happening over and over and over. Especially when we feel as though not enough is being done about it and we're not heard.

Eventually if its not fixed we'll just have to stop playing a fantastic game. I'm speaking up because I want to see this addressed. Certainly not for more censoring.

Plus censoring/banning is a band-aid, its not addressing the core issue that causes what is censored, the real problem. If people were lowered elo for their behavior I could see that working as it would balance the ladder. Obviously tricky to code, and thats an huge understatement.

Do you mind addressing riots stance on toxic play vs toxic behavior/chat? I'm disappointed that something that can be muted is gathering so much attention/response while something we can do nothing about as players is seemingly unaddressed.

Obviously I could've easily missed it being addressed. In game it feels completely rampant. I get how difficult it is to address this issue, tons of variables at play- I'm just curious if there is a stance of action, strategy, plan. This is also based on my years of play, not simply pre-season. Craziness is expected in preseason.

I've seen pro streamers commenting on how difficult games feel lately, expressing the same feelings I've been having. Its really taking the fun out of the game and replacing it with struggle. I mean, the way the system works in general is kinda backwards in some large respects, but thats a completely different huge topic.

And what does shitting on them accomplish

KazaJhodoNov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

And what does shitting on them accomplish

In most cases it makes the feeder play worse. If they didn't care in the first place anyways, either nothing or actually makes them happy because they are trolling.

In regards to those flaming, players are just trying to pay back what the player gave to them. They fed, now I'll flame. You reap what you sow.

Not saying its right or accomplishes anything, just why people do it. People do a lot of weird destructive things. There is always a reason, it may be bad, but its a reason. You aren't going to stop it short of getting rid of chat.

Essentially if you ban the flame, you ban the players that weren't feeding, and the feeder remains to feed more until they get to their elo. Assuming they are actually doing their best. The whole way they will ruin games.

This is where people say, thats what the ranked ladder is for... well yeah, but it doesn't work. lol

If the ranked ladder is broken anywhere, its broken everywhere.

ModUlanopoNov 12, 20171 votes

Why not? If you're feeding you are shitting on your teammates, so why shouldn't they return it in kind?

An eye for an eye leaves the world blind. As EvilDustMan points out, retaliation accomplishes nothing more than more retaliation.
Most League players have a twisted view of what constitutes feeding. Just had a game where one player accused another player of feeding because they didn't build Morello's. Never mind that person had the most damage and best KDA.
It's against Riot's rules and can put your account at risk.

KazaJhodoNov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

An eye for an eye leaves the world blind. As EvilDustMan points out, retaliation accomplishes nothing more than more retaliation.

Most League players have a twisted view of what constitutes feeding. Just had a game where one player accused another player of feeding because they didn't build Morello's. Never mind that person had the most damage and best KDA.

It's against Riot's rules and can put your account at risk.

An eye for an eye will not continue, because no one will want to lose their eye. Thats the point of that saying. Plus it wouldn't continue indefinitely, its confined to the parties involved. Not the judge or the one executing the sentence, thats silly. Otherwise yeah, the whole world would go blind and it would be a stupid rule.

Absolutely correct about retaliation. Its pointless, especially on the Internet. 101 of the 101

I feel like you think i'm advocating flame. I'm not, I'm trying to point out that flame is the result of bad play. Usually its the result of something, sometimes blame- but many times actually legit gripes. The problem isn't the flame, the problem is the cause of the flame.

I think we have a lot of players in elos where they do not belong. Lots of smurfs, trolls, afks, bad players, tilted players, tired players... all of these things misbalancing game matching and creating just plain bad games. These bad games build up player frustration and they can't do anything about it- so it turns into retaliation against those they feel are flaming them with their gameplay.

The flame is the same, gameplay or chat. However chat we can mute, pings we can mute- bad gameplay we are captives and just fucked. Riot is paying too much attention to toxic chat, not nearly enough attention to toxic play. Now that doesn't mean we just ban people for 'feed'. If I was in a diamond game, I wouldn't be intentionally feeding, but I bet I'd feed just the same. I shouldn't be banned, I should be moved to my elo. The ladder should be balanced, it needs to work effectively.

It does not right now. Like I said in another post, if its broken anywhere, its broken everywhere. I can explain more about that if you want- but thats another topic entirely, obviously.

ModUlanopoNov 12, 20171 votes

I feel like you think i'm advocating flame. I'm not, I'm trying to point out that flame is the result of bad play.

That would be fine, except you said:

If you're feeding, expect to get shit on.

Regardless of how that is intended, you're arguing that "getting shit on" is the natural consequence of poor play, which has the effect of normalizing and excusing toxicity.

KazaJhodoNov 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That would be fine, except you said:

Regardless of how that is intended, you're arguing that "getting shit on" is the natural consequence of poor play, which has the effect of normalizing and excusing toxicity.

I said you should expect it. Not that its ok, not that I sponsor it financially or otherwise. That you should expect it.

Normalizing? Yes, flaming people that flame you is normal. Some people are more aggressive than others. You think its not normal? It seems pretty common. I mean we seem to have endless wars and conflict in humanity... its pretty normal.

Excusing, no, just explaining that when you do poorly its more likely, far more likely, to come in your direction. In the case of the frustration levels in this game, i'd say nearly 100% likely. I'm shocked when I do poorly and DO NOT get flamed. We're also talking really bad, not just bad.

To go slightly deeper into my comment:

What is more interesting, is that I think they had it coming, or they should get shit on. Do I think they deserve to get flamed for playing terribly- yes. They shit on the team with their play, the team shits on them with their flame. Does it have to be flame? Noooo. Constructive help would be great, but its really difficult to explain how to play from behind quickly over chat while playing the game- so its often just flame.

Is it healthy? No. Does riot 'allow' it, yes. Look at the korean servers. Does riot try to manage it, I'm sure.

Again, my main point is that the toxic play is far worse than the toxic chat. One can be muted, one can't. I think making a big deal over toxic chat is just spinning your wheels.

People need to stop being babies about chat. The person talking to you literally has no concept of who you are, he can't possibly actually insult you. He/she/it does not know you in any way whatsoever. Its ridiculous.

If you came to me and called me a fucking moron, i'd just respond- well, haha, good talk. That would be the last thing I ever said to you, simple. However I think you have valid well thought out opinions for the most part, and some insider information. So I listen and take you seriously.

ModUlanopoNov 13, 20171 votes

Again, my main point is that the toxic play is far worse than the toxic chat. One can be muted, one can't. I think making a big deal over toxic chat is just spinning your wheels.

There isn't anything that says they cannot be working on both at once.

KazaJhodoNov 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

There isn't anything that says they cannot be working on both at once.

Yeah gotcha. I guess I said that because it feels like one is far more predominate than the other, and it seems like the lesser of the evils to me.

Long as its on the radar thats all I care about, then we'll just see how effective it is and work from there.

ModUlanopoNov 12, 20171 votes

I think we have a lot of players in elos where they do not belong.

That's an opinion you have. It's not relevant to the acceptability of toxicity, however.

Riot is paying too much attention to toxic chat, not nearly enough attention to toxic play.

This is also an opinion. They're working on both and I happen to believe that progress on FeederBuster is handicapped by poor reporting introducing noise into the database.

KazaJhodoNov 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That's an opinion you have. It's not relevant to the acceptability of toxicity, however.

This is also an opinion. They're working on both and I happen to believe that progress on FeederBuster is handicapped by poor reporting introducing noise into the database.

Dude, naturally its an opinion, based on my observations from tons of games. I feel like you're being snippy. I appreciate the responses though, these ones were pretty good.

How are players not being in the elo they belong in.... players masquerading under false mmr (smurfs), not relevant? Something that directly contributes to player frustration is directly relevant to player toxicity. We're talking human beings here. I offer it is completely relevant. Yes, this is my opinion. Based on how people behave in combination with thousands of games. That was a bunch of short sentences. lol

There is nothing wrong with stating opinions. Especially if they are accurate.

If riot is currently working on feedbuster in regards to toxic play- clearly it actually is an issue. That is awesome. It gives me some hope. I'm sure there is quite a bit of noise in the reporting database. Probably an amazing amount.

When you're dealing with frustrated people you're also dealing with less rational people. In combination with likely a long period of consistent frustration- I'm sure the database is a nightmare. Especially when I'm sure that some options are used improperly. For instance I'm sure that riot expects intentional feed to only be used for that- but I'm sure its used by most for just general feed, because there isn't another option.

I'm a programmer for a living and I cannot imagine attempting to parse through that data to make sense of it. The sheer volume, holy hell.

I'm hoping for good things, do you have any details regarding the adjustments?

ModUlanopoNov 13, 20171 votes

I'm hoping for good things, do you have any details regarding the adjustments?

I don't. I'm a volunteer, not an employee. This is not an area where I can ask a question and have it answered.

Given the history of the two systems, I think I can provide some perspective, however. Back in the Tribunal days, Lyte made mention that Tribunal voters were about 4-6% more strict than Riot was. This says to me that Riot used the Tribunal to clean up the database, which led to the IFS. Basically, volunteers provided feedback on a machine learning system.

I have heard tell of LeaverBuster for some time now, mostly in the form of Rioters basically referring to it as a work in progress. Two years, at least. I think the main problem is that they don't have a way to harness crowd sourcing to teach the system to differentiate between deliberate feeding and poor play, which is more complicated than chat toxicity. I have a feeling that biometrics are going to be included at some point, if they already aren't.

I feel like you're being snippy.

Not intentionally. The Player Behavior board has been problematic today and it's possible some of my frustration with people who are not you bled through.

KazaJhodoNov 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I don't. I'm a volunteer, not an employee. This is not an area where I can ask a question and have it answered.

Given the history of the two systems, I think I can provide some perspective, however. Back in the Tribunal days, Lyte made mention that Tribunal voters were about 4-6% more strict than Riot was. This says to me that Riot used the Tribunal to clean up the database, which led to the IFS. Basically, volunteers provided feedback on a machine learning system.

I have heard tell of LeaverBuster for some time now, mostly in the form of Rioters basically referring to it as a work in progress. Two years, at least. I think the main problem is that they don't have a way to harness crowd sourcing to teach the system to differentiate between deliberate feeding and poor play, which is more complicated than chat toxicity. I have a feeling that biometrics are going to be included at some point, if they already aren't.

Not intentionally. The Player Behavior board has been problematic today and it's possible some of my frustration with people who are not you bled through.

Oh ok, didn't realize your position, sorry man.

Yeah, without question toxic play is harder to calculate.

Machine learning? So developing an ai to do it? Something that can calculate and learn programmatically regarding banning chat vs play? If so thats pretty nuts, matrix stuff. Really cool.

Biometrics would also be good, I assume thats to group accounts or something? Id players to a master account and sub-accounts in order to make sure they aren't trolling lower elos and party crashing games.

And I don't mind a little heated conversation, no bigs. Thanks for the information and responses, really cool. Hopefully I'll hear from you in the future.

ApplesauceyNov 12, 20176 votes

Guess what, people in general aren't nice to strangers, especially when you push them into hyper competitive environments. It's not riots job to protect your delicate sensibilities. If you have a problem with something use your fucking mute. Riot shouldn't pandering to this BS and handing out bans because someone was a little mean.

archerno1Nov 12, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Guess what, people in general aren't nice to strangers, especially when you push them into hyper competitive environments. It's not riots job to protect your delicate sensibilities. If you have a problem with something use your fucking mute. Riot shouldn't pandering to this BS and handing out bans because someone was a little mean.

HYPER COMPETITIVE ENVORONMENT? You are playing a bloody video game against other people and calling them homophobic slurs. What kind of freakin logic is this?

ApplesauceyNov 12, 20171 votes

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archerno1Nov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

first of all f**got has been used as a general purpose insult online for a decade. Suddenly deciding everyone is using it only by its strictest of definitions simply isn't fair. Secondly regardless of how competitive you think ranked should be. The intention for that queue is for it to be taken extremely seriously. The "its just a bloody video game" mentality is why the koreans constantly crush the competitive scene.

No, intention of that queue is to show you how good u are playing the way u play. And that slur has been used for decades to degrade gay people. It was used as "general insult" because of archaic religious views that being gay is not normal, that there is something wrong with it. Persecution of gays was acceptable, thats why that insult was acceptable.

ApplesauceyNov 12, 20171 votes

[deleted]

archerno1Nov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You just admitted yourself it is commonly used as a general insult. Which means it shouldn't be classified as a racial slur mandating a 14 insta ban. Not to mention the fucking common usage of a word changes both with time and location in the world it is being used. So enforcing such a strict policy for vocabulary is fucking asinine. You know what was also a slur not 10 years ago and considered completely inappropriate to use. THE WORD GAY. This was also used as a derogatory term for homosexual people. Yet its not being censored nor is it mandating a 14 day ban.

Yes, and they used N word too like that. And a lot of other derogatory terms. But community also deemed it hate speech and unacceptable later. Point is, you agreed to Riots terms, Riot has 0 policy towards that. And you got punished for it. You can go and find game that allows it and stay there.

ApplesauceyNov 12, 20171 votes

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archerno1Nov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

This "its riots game they can do what they want" attitude is how riot has been steadily driving the game into the ground over the past few years. YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO QUESTION EVERYTHING. stop just accepting everything as it is like a scrub. The term fgot is nowhere near something like nger and in no way deserves a 14 day insta ban regardless of prior punishment.

You are not supposed to question everything. You are presented with terms of use. You accept them and play. Or you dont and u move on. Its not debatable.

ApplesauceyNov 12, 20172 votes

[deleted]

archerno1Nov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

EVERYTHING at all times should be questioned. Just because the terms of use are there doesn't mean you shouldn't question whether they are correct. Especially when half the time if you actually take that shit to court half the crap in them doesn't hold up.

No, not really. This is private property. If you go to someones house and he tells you that if you dont behave in certain way you will be kicked out of his house, you dont question it. Either u leave yourself or you respect his rules.

ApplesauceyNov 12, 20171 votes

[deleted]

archerno1Nov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yes, yes you do question it and if they press the issue, you stop all contact with them. Your friends shouldn't be attempting to censor you. Especially when they have to opt in to 2 different systems to see the thing they are banning people for in the first place and then ignoring a third. Banning people for using a particular word that they normally only see if they can 1. Turn language filter off. 2. Turn all chat on 3. note mute anyone who is bothering them.

Banning people over using words that offend people that are filtered by your chat filter is retarded. It's like your going to youtube. Turning off the maturity filter and then bitching at youtube to take a video down because you got offended by some guy saying fuck when you had to opt in to being there in the first place.

I never said "friends". I said, if you go to someones house. But, lets take your example. If your friend asks you to leave his house because you said that word "f,...", what will you do?

ApplesauceyNov 12, 20171 votes

[deleted]

KarunamonNov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No the simple thing is if you dont like being called a F**got mute the person and move on with your day. That way you being stupidly over sensitive doesn't stop another human from enjoying the game they spent money on, and so that riot doesn't hemorrhage potentially paying customer to try and protect your ass over something they shouldn't be attempting to protect you from in the first place.

This game has millions of people playing it. The loss of people upset that they can't use homophobic slurs isn't even a blip on the balance sheet. For them, there's DOTA and LPQ.

redniwediSNov 12, 20171 votes

He really did get you on this one. You should question everything, even if you agree with it.

If you don't always question things you'll miss out on important details, like why something is a thing and why it is needed, and on the off chance you find out it's not needed you are better prepared to deal with changing what you're questioning.

Respecting the rules does not mean bowing to the every whim of the person who makes them, it means you follow the rules whether or not you agree. You can do this while also questioning the rules themselves, and the person who made them.

archerno1Nov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

He really did get you on this one. You should question everything, even if you agree with it.

If you don't always question things you'll miss out on important details, like why something is a thing and why it is needed, and on the off chance you find out it's not needed you are better prepared to deal with changing what you're questioning.

Respecting the rules does not mean bowing to the every whim of the person who makes them, it means you follow the rules whether or not you agree. You can do this while also questioning the rules themselves, and the person who made them.

No. Not everything. You shouldnt question rules people place on their own property. You should question way your government run your country. Question why price of electricity went up. Question why you arent getting best medical care. But u DO NOT question rules of entry. Thats not debatable or questionable. You either accept them and play. Or not accept them and not play.

redniwediSNov 12, 20171 votes

You should question rules people place on their own property. Just because you question them doesn't mean you don't respect their wishes.

You are completely able to not agree with the rules while also agreeing to play by them.

KazaJhodoNov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No. Not everything. You shouldnt question rules people place on their own property. You should question way your government run your country. Question why price of electricity went up. Question why you arent getting best medical care. But u DO NOT question rules of entry. Thats not debatable or questionable. You either accept them and play. Or not accept them and not play.

You can still question them. Think of questioning as a good thing. It can help reveal problems- questions can be good. However you are right that the rules made are concrete- you are wrong that they can't be questioned and changed. In the immediate however, yes accept them or do not play.

HammermancerNov 12, 20176 votes

I think the core of the issue is that this is a pvp team game and some people are just too hamm, they aren't really bad people they just get heated for the match.

Now I think they could have their own ranked system and it'd be baller to just let them have their own party, ban them if they fuck with people who don't want toxic in their games etc.

like a whole section of ranked mode only for toxic players, where it's almost encouraged.

that way they don't just get banned and grind back up to 30, start playing ranked again and trash talking til they get banned again

these dudes think it's worth it to them, so fuck it.

KazaJhodoNov 12, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=WaEzfGeH,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-11-12T07:44:41.947+0000)

I think the core of the issue is that this is a pvp team game and some people are just too hamm, they aren't really bad people they just get heated for the match.

Now I think they could have their own ranked system and it'd be baller to just let them have their own party, ban them if they fuck with people who don't want toxic in their games etc.

like a whole section of ranked mode only for toxic players, where it's almost encouraged.

that way they don't just get banned and grind back up to 30, start playing ranked again and trash talking til they get banned again

these dudes think it's worth it to them, so fuck it.

The problem is matchmaking. If you're trying your hardest and care, and someone is feeding 0/6 in the first 10 minutes... you should be pissed. They are being inconsiderate to every other player on their team. They deserve to get flamed. They do not deserve to not get flamed for their shitty play.

The major issue is that there is nothing we can do about toxic play except flame/report. We're forced into a game with they players and if they feed, we are helpless and we feel like nothing is being done about it as we continually see it in our games.

People rage because if you feel like nothing is being done, you do more and more extreme things to try to do something about it. If people didn't care they wouldn't say anything at all. Its not that they don't care, its that riot gave them a shitter to work with and its really frustrating. Its also not the first time, its the thousandth time, and it gets old.

I'm super patient, super composed, but I find myself absolutely losing my shit in games when its the thirty millionth feeder i've had that just keeps inting over and over again. Not in just one lane, but 1-3 lanes sometimes. Its insane. Sometimes the whole entire rest of the team! The game is 3/20 at 16 minutes, i'm even everything in my lane and like... wtf, thanks riot, wow.

I think we just need to grow up and stop being babies about flame. No one ever gets flamed that doing well. Reap what you sow. Toxic chat, who cares- however toxic PLAY, that needs to be sorted. If the games were more evenly matched I think there would naturally be far less flame in comparison.

TheChillPillNov 12, 20172 votes

You are doing sth I have seen a lot in LoL. You assume these people feed intentionally. Most of them really don't. Sometimes the enemy team (or your designed enemy) is just a better player. Sometimes they needed ganks that didn't happen. There are so many other oprions, other than them being ''toxic players''. I have been ''the feeder'' quite a few times, and I have also had people who fed during the whole match. But I honestly never assumed they were doing it on purpose. It is frustrating, but there is a point where you have to remember you weren't always the great player you think you are now either.

KazaJhodoNov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You are doing sth I have seen a lot in LoL. You assume these people feed intentionally. Most of them really don't. Sometimes the enemy team (or your designed enemy) is just a better player. Sometimes they needed ganks that didn't happen. There are so many other oprions, other than them being ''toxic players''. I have been ''the feeder'' quite a few times, and I have also had people who fed during the whole match. But I honestly never assumed they were doing it on purpose. It is frustrating, but there is a point where you have to remember you weren't always the great player you think you are now either.

I don't know what sth is, sorry.

You're assuming I'm assuming.

They may be bad, of course. I mean thats pretty obvious. However the result is the same, intentionally feeding or just feeding. I do not care if feeding is intentional or not. The result is the same.

I've been the feeder as well and the fed. Thats not the point.

The point is that you can stop feeding.

If someone doesn't know how to do that before its to the point of no return- they should be in a lower elo.

Part of this issue is autofill. For instance recently I was filled mid and got countered in lane. I'm bad at mid, and unpracticed at it furthermore. I got stomped. I felt like I died 20 times, I felt terrible, I was letting my team down. It didn't really matter, because my jungle and support were 11 deaths each... but still I'm not a midlaner at my elo. Period. I can play all lanes except mid at my elo- and granted this midlaner enemy was better than usual, but I did terrible. I do not belong in midlane at my elo.

However I did my best to farm and not feed, which honestly I didn't do very well. I killed my laner a few times from ganks by playing them correctly. I didn't blame my literally feeding jungle at the time, I didn't blame anyone but me. The game was my fault, I wasn't playing from behind well. I expect to play with people that play the same way in my games. That is all.

When I don't get that, its frustrating. Of course there are sooooo many variables that can be discussed- but you get the general idea. Actually I think the 11 death raka was autofilled as well in that game. Autofill is pretty toxic, but thats another topic entirely.

TheChillPillNov 28, 20171 votes

Sth is ''something'' :)

I understand what you're saying.

WheatloafNov 12, 20174 votes

Internet Logic: Why should I stop being mean to people when they can stop being hurt by it?

They're not even technically wrong, it's just not a particularly strong argument, especially when the other side can say the same thing: Why do we even have to deal with you being mean when you can just not?

The entire argument, at least on any internet forum I've seen it on, is basically each side saying "Why should I put work into interacting with people?" Personally, I'm on the side of Player Behavior, because the people flaming and such are the instigators in this situation. By their own logic of "you don't have to be hurt by what others say and do", there's no reason for them to flame in the first place- they can just not be bothered by what their team is doing. If they stop themselves there, there's no room for anyone to be a sensitive bitch about what they say in the first place. In fact, if you think about it that way, the flamers are the ones being overly sensitive.

TL;DR People trying to justify flaming and saying it shouldn't be ban-worthy are essentially applying the Devil's Proof to human relations, and it isn't any less a fallacy.

KazaJhodoNov 12, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Internet Logic: Why should I stop being mean to people when they can stop being hurt by it?

They're not even technically wrong, it's just not a particularly strong argument, especially when the other side can say the same thing: Why do we even have to deal with you being mean when you can just not?

The entire argument, at least on any internet forum I've seen it on, is basically each side saying "Why should I put work into interacting with people?" Personally, I'm on the side of Player Behavior, because the people flaming and such are the instigators in this situation. By their own logic of "you don't have to be hurt by what others say and do", there's no reason for them to flame in the first place- they can just not be bothered by what their team is doing. If they stop themselves there, there's no room for anyone to be a sensitive bitch about what they say in the first place. In fact, if you think about it that way, the flamers are the ones being overly sensitive.

TL;DR People trying to justify flaming and saying it shouldn't be ban-worthy are essentially applying the Devil's Proof to human relations, and it isn't any less a fallacy.

Flame is often the result of something. In my experience its usually feeding, though its often also when someone makes a bad play and then starts blaming. Which is why jungles often get flamed.

What I'm getting at is, why did the person get flamed. If it was their play, well call it even I guess. If its not legit- well thats not cool. I find often lately that we're focusing on the flame, instead of the root issue. A player feeds 0/6 in 10 minutes, making the game really hard for the rest of his team- I don't think anyone should be surprised when he gets flamed. Hes causing all of his teammates to have a much greater chance of losing the game.

Granted flame helps nothing- but we shouldn't be shocked it happens. We certainly can't stop it by just trying to snuff it. We have to stop the problem at the source.

Boosting is just as toxic as a bad player. If someone is going 30/0 10 games in a row they should be jumped into a higher elo. They ruin games just like a feeder does. We need to be sure we're exploring all sides.

WheatloafNov 12, 20172 votes

I made my post addressing the faulty logic in the arguments used on the topic, so I didn't really address your point but I do agree with it. Sometimes, there are good reasons someone might flame. Having someone in your game that is either obviously not at your skill level or obviously not interested in playing the game seriously sucks. You have every right to get mad in that case. I don't agree with vocalizing it in the particular manner some do, but I agree with them being upset. I don't think we should tolerate flaming, however "justified" you may consider it, though, because even in those cases it's at best unproductive.

KazaJhodoNov 12, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I made my post addressing the faulty logic in the arguments used on the topic, so I didn't really address your point but I do agree with it. Sometimes, there are good reasons someone might flame. Having someone in your game that is either obviously not at your skill level or obviously not interested in playing the game seriously sucks. You have every right to get mad in that case. I don't agree with vocalizing it in the particular manner some do, but I agree with them being upset. I don't think we should tolerate flaming, however "justified" you may consider it, though, because even in those cases it's at best unproductive.

Gotchu.

Yeah man, its obviously not good in any scenario. Maybe 'good reasons' isn't the right way to say it, but 'understandable', I'm sure thats what you meant.

The best way is to give constructive advice, but lately its so toxic that you just get an instant fuck you back.

To put it in a nutshell, when I started this game I went my promos and was placed silver 2. I got the FUCK flamed out of me in silver 2, like it was insane. They could all tell I had no fucking idea what I was actually doing. They knew I didn't belong- but I didn't know that at the time. Now I know.

Riot put me there and I got flamed all the way from silver 2 down to bronze. Is it my fault I was put where I didn't belong? No. Is it riot's fault? Absolutely. They placed me into a toxic scenario and I ruined tons of games for people and deserved not to get banned- but certainly demoted. You know what? It would've made my game experience MUCH better as well.

Flame happens for a reason. Fix those reasons and it will greatly dull down. Try to censor the flame itself and you'll just lose gamers to other games. I guarantee it. As long as you censor the flame you will not solve the actual problem. Take that as gospel.

WheatloafNov 12, 20171 votes

Definitely. But leaving the flame to itself while you go after the root issue isn't ideal either; I much prefer them going after it from both angles, especially because flaming isn't something we'll get rid of entirely unless a shift in the mindset of society far beyond the scope of League happens.