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Discussion - Was banning my account fair & Could the system be improved?

Clandestine Fox··1 votes·3,361 views

Greetings fellow summoners! Recently my account was banned for Abusive & Toxic comms, and I felt "harsh" was an understatement to describe this penalty in the context of the reports. I've had a lovely conversation with a Player-Support Agent who helped clarify how my actions added up to a ban, but it's not within an Agent's power to actually judge if the situation was truly just: only if there was truly content that would trigger the bot. So before getting into my situation that got me here, I'd like to reiterate the subjects of this post / discussion.

  1. Was banning my account really the fair penalty?
  2. Could the current system be improved to better target toxicity and incite reform? (And yes, I understand this board has no guarantee that it will effect either my penalty or the system) That said, anyone who's not interested in my personal situation is free to skip passed the first section to read about my thoughts on the system in the second section. Feedback and discussion on either subject is appreciated.
  1. My reform card chat logs - brief context - related penalties - thoughts on the matter

So this journey begins actually a year ago. I don't have an exact date since there wasn't any pre or post game chat, but my Agent mentioned it happened last year so I'm estimating between october and november of 2017.

Pre-Game Chat No Post-Game Chat In-Game Chat [4:25] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): i got em dude [10:37] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): lol, that's not what salty means, scrub [10:41] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): low tier troll [10:42] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): good tru [15:25] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): lol you kids are trash [15:59] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): calling you trash and laughing at you isnt mad bruh [16:03] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): low tier trash troll [16:05] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): good try [24:33] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): throw it in the trash [27:42] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): that's cause you're autistic [27:44] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): the items are done [28:16] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): it's a normal, im doing whatever the f%%% I please [28:23] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): and look, its working [28:31] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): I'm not [28:39] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): you kids are literally all chatting to me [28:43] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): trying to get a responser [28:48] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): and then calling me salty [28:50] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): for responding [28:51] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): like [29:00] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): shut the f%%% up you stupid pug andrew credit face head idiot [29:07] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): go ride your f%%%ng sleds all day fa%%%% [29:15] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): literally kill yourself irl [29:22] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): ill 1v1 you and all your f%%%ing buddies at the same time [29:24] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): 1v12 [29:31] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): 12 being me, because you dont have friends [29:40] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): eat sh%% you pug fa%%%% c%%% piece of sh%% [29:43] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): kha is above you [29:49] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): hes beyond your capacity Post-Game Chat No Post-Game Chat

So right off the bat I'll say, I'm not refuting the legitimacy of this instance and penalty.

The context of this game is that the entire enemy team (4 or 5 of their players) were incessantly spamming the all chat and harassing me and my team for literally no reason; your typical baiter-troll squad. Now, the smart thing to do would be to disable all chat at the 10.5 minute mark when I'd initially determined they were being trolls. But I did not, I'm Stubborn to a Fault, like Poppy . Puns aside, I withstood their verbal onslaught quite well for another 5 or so minutes before finally calling them out on their behavior. It didn't stop though, and became worse over time. By the 27 minute mark they had started harassing me about my build, and by this point I'd had enough of their shenanigans and snapped out at them, since respect wasn't anything they valued. But at the 29 minute mark I decided to change my tune from "Reasoning with the unreasonable," to "Parodying the unreasonable," where I fought troll fire with troll fire. The first couple of lines were quotes from an old youtube video from '06 called "The Life of a Youtube hater," which is a satire or the vile things people used to regularly post on youtube comments, followed by some classic middle-school style Call-of-Duty smack talk. That is to say: no rhyme or reason, all made up smack talk.

Now, that was the first time my account of 8 years received a penalty for anything, and it happened in the latter half of year 7. It deleted my honor level from 5 to 0, and gave me a 1 week chat restriction (or whatever the short chat restriction is). This penalty was completely just, and the amount of grinding required to revive that honor level combined with the chat restriction was plenty of time to reflect on that behavior and incentive to better censor myself before letting my thoughts go out to other players.

Moving along in our journey, several months later on 3/19/18, and very shortly after finally breaching that honor level two state of normal honor rewards;

Pre-Game Chat No Post-Game Chat In-Game Chat [6:36] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): swain oom and just sitting there for years [6:39] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): now his flash down [8:15] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): ty [9:58] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): gw [17:08] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): f%%% [17:09] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): she would [24:11] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): stop being afk in the f%%%ing base when theres 4 top [24:38] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): im not flaming you are [24:45] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): you're afk when im making pressure [24:50] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): idc if theres 4 on mee [24:53] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): thats not the point [25:02] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): since there was 4 top and you werent doingt anything [25:03] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): thats when [25:04] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): stfu [27:30] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): gw [28:41] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): he used pred [29:30] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): ty [31:01] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): gw [32:57] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): lkmao [35:15] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): 1 by 1? you must not look at your own damn screen XD [35:23] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): just cause you died before me doesnt make it 1 by 1 [35:45] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): you said [35:46] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): 1 by 1 [35:47] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): when [35:50] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): me and you went in at once [35:52] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): thast makes it 2 [35:57] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): so you're wrong by default [36:16] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): wrong again [36:58] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): mute all you kids if you're just gonna make shit up and waste my time XD [37:32] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): literally how dumb are you [37:37] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): no one other than riven had to die [37:41] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): but yall wanted to afk in the bush [37:42] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): lmao [39:03] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): mmkay you tards group as 4, ima bring 3 or 4 of them top so you can do something useful [39:14] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): gw veig [39:17] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): off to good stat [40:16] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): gg Post-Game Chat [2018-03-19 00:20:06 PDT] Clandestine Fox: learn to group as f%%%ing 3 before trying to manage a 5 man group [2018-03-19 00:20:10 PDT] Clandestine Fox: you guys are silly AF

Now at a glance this one looks very aggressive, but comparatively it's much more tame than the first instance. It's also important to note that the toxicity started at the 24 minute mark (the 17 minute was me frustrated about an enemy gank), when I first defended myself at all from my angry jungler. Up until that point, he'd been everywhere on the map except top, and had some incendiary comment about me everytime I got 3-4 man ganked and dove. Eventually I'd had enough, and gave him some legitimate criticism. Angry, but legitimate. After that, I continued to try my best to play the game and assist the team and give positive reinforcement, and then 10 minutes later the bot lane joins the conversation to assist the jungler by fabricating some story of a failed gank that happened bot lane that was also my fault. At that point I gave up on reasoning with those players, but still tried to play the game and strategize with them. Angrily, but I was still trying.

Like the first one, this penalty was another great learning experience about how sensitive the system is. Literally any sign of anger in your word choice groups you, the abusee, into the same toxic penalty crowd as the abuser. While cherry picking only my text out of a chatlog can easily paint me toxic, it does nothing to actually address where the toxicity was coming from.

This one comes from the night after, and I find to be very questionable given the situation. A Brief pretext for this one is that I was duo queue with my higher rank friend who was playing adc at the time, while I was top.

Pre-Game Chat [2018-03-20 10:31:07 PDT] Clandestine Fox: sick amarite? [2018-03-20 10:31:29 PDT] Clandestine Fox: the lee got so memed XD [2018-03-20 10:32:33 PDT] Clandestine Fox: http://plays.tv/video/5ab06c3858e9e4c3cc/that-was-cleaner-than-oxy-clean [2018-03-20 10:32:35 PDT] Clandestine Fox: a funny clip [2018-03-20 10:33:11 PDT] Clandestine Fox: camille's a tough cookie to lane tho, hopee shes not some baller camille player XD In-Game Chat [0:43] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): tru [0:46] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): ty [1:02] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): shee so fun [1:12] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): he was [1:17] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): thats why i was laughin the whole time [1:18] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): like [1:23] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): "is he gonna let mee do it?" [2:42] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): oh sick she took a silly rune fo camille [4:50] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): im glad vi can just hold her Q [4:52] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): for 5 seconds [5:51] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): lmao [6:26] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): if vi didnt flash that was a double XD [6:48] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): i know [6:52] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): thats not how this works [7:03] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): but she took silly rune XD id be more worried if she had grasp over that thing [7:12] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): in lane anywayt [7:17] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): teamfights shell be anoyiung [11:47] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): i got fb tower ina sec [14:55] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): wow wtf [15:00] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): 4 second stopwatch [15:47] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): what [16:27] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): sometimes i win games for him [16:30] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): sometimes he wins them for me [16:33] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): sh%% happens [18:10] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): i wish camille's hitbox didnt eat my stun when i tried to slam vayne T_T [19:28] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): no ones boosting [21:31] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): the f%%% are you talking about kid [21:33] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): im like silver 2 [21:39] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): thats not really high in the leasty [21:46] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): and you havent even pretended to gank top [21:48] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): ive been winning 1v2 [21:52] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): do something somewhere [22:00] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): and yet every other lane lost [22:00] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): so [22:03] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): what did you do? [22:06] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): what makes you so good? [22:08] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): its not about [22:11] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): if i "need" [22:12] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): a gank [22:13] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): free as f%%% [22:14] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): kills [22:16] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): top [22:18] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): but you afk mid [22:19] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): and b%%%% [22:20] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): so [22:23] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): muted and reported [22:26] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): i wasnt losing [22:30] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): and you didnt gank [22:30] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): so' [22:33] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): you're r%%%%%eed [22:40] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): exactly [22:45] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): muting this trash jungle [22:52] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): i got to their f%%%ing inhib turret [22:54] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): 10 minutes in [22:55] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): 2v1 [22:57] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): no help from jungle [22:59] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): and IM [23:01] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): the bad one [23:01] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): ok [23:36] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): like this loss is 100% on you lee [23:41] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): if you wanna throw my game im down for your plan [23:43] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): go ahead [24:13] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): bot lane didnt afk from the FREEST F%%%ING 10 MINUTE TOP INHIB [24:18] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): and then bitch about everyone in chat [24:21] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): and then bait bot lane to die [24:24] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): by saying he was coming [24:27] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): and then not coming [24:31] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): and then afking Post-Game Chat [2018-03-20 11:00:08 PDT] Clandestine Fox: lmao lee's such a scrub

In short, this game was another lee sin incessantly harassing me and my duo because my duo was doing very poorly, and for an entire 20 minutes I quietly ignored him and let him go unchecked. But it was around that time that he changed from complaining about my duo's K/D/A, to telling everyone in all chat to report me for boosting. He started trying to convince my team of it, and at that point I couldn't ignore it any more. He spent the entire game griefing the chat, and then I go punished simply for defending myself in a heated situation. While this response may not be "productive" toward the toxic jungler's behavior, I don't really feel like directing an angry stranger towards a calm state of being is in any way my responsibility. It's not like my behavior in this situation caused Lee to attack me, he had been doing so aggressively the entire time. Why punish me for responding in kind? At what point is self defense considered Abusive & Toxic?

Six months later in September, is the one real black sheep of all these logs. This instance is very short, and I make no excuses for it. It's the instance that earned me a 2 week suspension, while the previous ones were only chat restrictions.

Pre-Game Chat No Post-Game Chat In-Game Chat [9:38] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): fa%%%% [10:28] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): i got camped [11:16] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): fa%%%% [31:56] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): gg Post-Game Chat [2018-09-25 15:02:44 PDT] Clandestine Fox: ez [2018-09-25 15:03:06 PDT] Clandestine Fox: i do enjoy playing perma poppy [2018-09-25 15:03:07 PDT] Clandestine Fox: lol [2018-09-25 15:03:07 PDT] Clandestine Fox: what

While this one was very upsetting to me at the time, since the enemy team was basically ban-baiting me by doing those cheeky irritating things like /All chatting "?" repeatedly or spamming emotes, laugh, etc. etc. at the end of the day my reaction was very over the top and I feel like a temporary account suspension after extremely incendiary reactions like this are a very reasonable punishment as it sends a clear message that that behavior is not tolerated. In instances like this one, where I just happened to be rather angry to begin with that day prior to playing the match, a suspension of play altogether provides plenty of time to cool-down and reflect. Although this particular report isn't in the same league as the rest, it's still an important example of how the system works for discussion later on.

And finally, this last one comes from quite recently, on Christmas Eve of all times. The pretext of this instance is that I was playing my Twisted Fate adc in the bot lane, and my entire team flamed and griefed me the entire game for my pick and less than stellar performance. On top of all that, compared to every other report instance here, this chat log is incredibly tame. Summoners, here is the last straw that set the system over the top:

Pre-Game Chat No Post-Game Chat In-Game Chat [1:06] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): a yo yo man [4:35] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): lol [4:36] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): gw [4:43] [All] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): you got spotted [7:23] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): TY [8:17] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): why're you so toxic [8:30] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): im not trolling [8:33] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): im being camped [8:36] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): and you watch until im dead [8:50] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): and you're muted [8:52] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): and reported [8:54] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): whats your point? [9:45] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): i cant move without xerath blasting me from anywhere [9:56] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): and you act like my champ is the reason he's shooting me [9:58] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): you're dumb XD [10:07] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): if I was Jhin, he'd still be doing that [10:33] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): quit doing thta [11:10] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): christ this troll sup just wants to blow any chance of recovery [11:14] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): shove my lane when im gone [11:16] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): no money or exp [11:19] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): then they dive me [11:21] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): wonder why? [11:26] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): useless sup [11:56] [All] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): report this velkoz, inting the lane and shoving the wave and just watching as i get dove [12:25] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): fucking hacker [12:34] [All] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): literal wallhacks. [12:48] [All] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): reporting xerath [13:20] [All] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): lul in caps all you want hes been blind shotting me at max range over 3 layers of wall [13:23] [All] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): nothing but hacks [14:07] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): easier said than done, ziggs. both teams plot against me every game. idk why [15:11] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): velkoz literally cleared my wave so many times [15:13] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): he has more cs [15:14] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): so helpful [15:25] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): then he goes mid [15:29] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): its adorable [18:52] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): no idea [18:54] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): nothing hit me [18:55] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): at all [18:58] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): and my hp dropped to 0 [20:14] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): kayn is such a cool champ [20:19] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): does nothing and your hp goes down [21:16] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): hes the one doing it [21:18] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): you chill [35:06] [All] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): sick hacks [35:39] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): reported Post-Game Chat [2018-12-24 14:24:39 PST] Clandestine Fox: reported [2018-12-24 14:24:42 PST] Clandestine Fox: l2p

Now this one is a bit special, since I still have the entire playback of that game. This is the actual in game context to all of this chatlog. https://plays.tv/video/5c2683eb8be68dd247/got-banned-for-toxic-abusive-comms-against-my-team-lets-take-look- While I can understand where the system flagged my behavior as "Toxic," is permanently banning my account for such mild toxicity really the best course of action? Under the current system, you get a mere 4 instances of bad behavior of any grade, and then you get the boot. If, after an earlier offense you behave really really good like I did for quite some time, the system will take this into account to some extent and grant you a little leniency. That's why my reform card here has 5 instances, rather than 4. But remember, this is 5 instances over the course of a year and a half. Not 5 instances over a 3 month span.

This of course brings us on to the second section:

How could the system be improved to better incentive reform within players being penalized?

The system as it currently stands utilizes a lot of the right ideas and concepts, but in some rather wonky ways. The system understands that there are various degrees of toxicity, and some get penalized much more heavily than others. It also recognizes "the small stuff" like name calling and generally arguing with your teammates, but doesn't penalize you on them until it has built up over time. This means in some way, the system is able to keep track of that too. But the strange part of the system I find, is the way penalties work. While I understand the premise behind the current one is that 50% or more players typically reform after each tier until the 4th where you're simply banned, and according to riots statistics the % of accounts banned is extremely small (0.006%), I don't really understand why that alone is enough of a reason to suspend my account of access to the game and everything I've purchased over 8 years of dedicated service. If such a large % of toxic players reform after each penalty, why does the system stop at 4? That's such a tight ultimatum reform window to expect from someone.

But the solution to this is actually incredibly simple. Why not disband the blackmark system altogether? The punishment system would better protect long term average-joe players like myself from inevitably being banned over the course of years just because one day, in one game, you had a heated argument with someone over the internet. Rather than using a system that considers any and all instances of toxicity as the same, we should use a system that doles out punishments (the same ones we use now, in fact) but the punishments severity actually correlates to the instance at hand, rather than checking only for a number of black marks.

For example, in hind sight looking back at my reform card now via these chat logs, the very first chat log (The All-chat one against the premade team) I would say realistically should have been punished for the same severity as the 4th one (The very short one where I called the enemy laner a couple angry words) with a two-week suspension. While I wasn't literally as angry in Log 1 as I was in Log 4, the content of what I said was on the same level of zero tolerance. In spite of this, Log 1 only warranted a short chat restriction (because it was only my first offence). In a system that looks at the severity of an offense and not at black marks, I would have received a suspension for that first offense regardless of it being my first. The system would basically run on a tier system, putting "the small stuff" like arguing and name calling for example, on tier 1 (the lowest), and when a valid tier 1 toxicity report goes through the player will receive a tier 1 penalty. For light toxicity like name calling or negative sarcasm, there's really no need to go further than a chat restriction. Repeat offenders of tier 1 offences would still be able to stack penalty and therefore gain lengthier restriction periods for toxicity shortly after coming off of a restriction. But on the flip side, players who aren't toxic and show honorable behavior in games over time will lose penalty levels by maintaining that good behavior. It's to my understanding that the current system does indeed consider your honor when punishing you, though how it actually does that is still vague to me. But with an actual visual meter of some sort for each penalty tier, it would be very easy for players to keep track of how other players are perceiving your behavior in game, especially if the system is keeping track of "small stuff" that you're being reported for, but not actually informing you until it has already built up enough to penalize you.

Another benefit to such a system is that by not banning players who may very well have just been put into unfortunate situations like I was, the system isn't outright closing the doors to reformation. If the Player-Reform system is truly built to reform players, why is being banned even considered a reasonable penalty? Being banned by a black mark system for such minor offenses simply doesn't feel just. If the absolute source of my toxicity is that I'm abusive on the comms, wouldn't the reasonable response be to ban my comms? Under a system that penalizes by severity rather than consecutive marks, Banning accounts would fall under a tier 3 or 4 offense (depending on how many are added). Bannable offenses would be things related to the account itself like buying/selling accounts, sharing accounts (if that's against the rules, I forget the policy on it).

Additionally, repeated short-term Tier 2 offenses (account suspension penalties) if not reduced through honorable behavior can stack up and give you a tier 3 penalty. In essence; receiving multiple tier 2 offenses (racial or homophobic slurs, telling people to do self harm, and other zero-tolerance things) within a short period of time showing little to no effort to reform, would be a tier 3 offense and be potentially bannable.

So that's my story and my thoughts and feelings on the current Reform system. What do you guys think,
1. Was perma-banning me really a just punishment? 2. Do you think the system could be improved by my ideas, or have any ideas of your own for the devs?

69 Comments

ModUlanopo10 votes

[29:07] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): go ride your f%%%ng sleds all day fa%%%% [29:15] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): literally kill yourself irl [29:22] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): ill 1v1 you and all your f%%%ing buddies at the same time [29:24] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): 1v12 [29:31] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): 12 being me, because you dont have friends [29:40] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): eat sh%% you pug fa%%%% c%%% piece of sh%%

Not going to lie, I stopped reading when I hit this. You made the game miserable for your teammates, full stop. So, yeah, the system worked exactly the way it's supposed to.

What you need to do, assuming you want to keep playing League, is figure a way to stop doing this.

Clandestine Fox1 votes

You probably should have kept reading. I put the chat log out there in its raw form for reference before reflecting on the situation and giving context of what happened.

"So right off the bat I'll say, I'm not refuting the legitimacy of this instance and penalty.

The context of this game is that the entire enemy team (4 or 5 of their players) were incessantly spamming the all chat and harassing me and my team for literally no reason; your typical baiter-troll squad. Now, the smart thing to do would . . .etc."

I had in now way, shape, or form made that particular game miserable for my team mates. I was talking to the opposing team who was harassing us, and I'm not denying that a penalty should have indeed been issued.

So, yeah, the system worked exactly the way it's supposed to.

Since you didn't read, I'll reiterate the point of this discussion for you. The question is not, "Did the system break its own rules in banning me?" the question is, "Should the system really reach the conclusion of a permanent ban the way that it does, and if not how could it be improved to reflect this?"

Thank you for taking time to join the discussion though, I appreciate your feedback.

ModUlanopo4 votes

You probably should have kept reading. I put the chat log out there in its raw form for reference before reflecting on the situation and giving context of what happened.

Um, no. There isn't a context that makes what you said okay.

I had in now way, shape, or form made that particular game miserable for my team mates. I was talking to the opposing team who was harassing us, and I'm not denying that a penalty should have indeed been issued.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Since you didn't read, I'll reiterate the point of this discussion for you. The question is not, "Did the system break its own rules in banning me?" the question is, "Should the system really reach the conclusion of a permanent ban the way that it does, and if not how could it be improved to reflect this?"

No, the system did not break its own rules. The core principle is that people who create a negative experience get removed. The context and circumstances of that experience remain entirely irrelevant. It doesn't matter if you were talking to your own team. It doesn't matter if you were talking to your best friend. It doesn't matter if you thought you had discovered a secret messaging system to get through to your secret masters among the magic-wielding tree mice of Mars.

Apricot Jams2 votes

This kind of one sided, unreasonable thinking is what's wrong with the system. Of course context matters man, give me a break, and the only reason riot says it doesn't is because they refuse to allocate the resources to do proper reviews of ticketed permabans. Money talks.

Clandestine Fox1 votes

Exactly my point! As long as my post is, the basis is really that I feel it uses a far too close-minded of an approach to reach its goal.

Thanks for taking the time to join the discussion!

Apricot Jams2 votes

Imho it's because perms bans actually make money by incentivising summoners who lose everything to spend real money instead of grinding for months to get all their stuff again. They have no reason to fix it because false positives are lucrative. Business is business. Pretty simple math that the idealistic and closed-minded riot fan club in here refuses to understand. The game is a drug and riot takes advantage of that. Capitalism at its finest. If the system actually worked I wouldn't be getting queud up with trolls on a daily basis.

Clandestine Fox1 votes

It seems like such an awful business model to just throw away your long term customers on such a small permastacking black mark system. I didn't bring it up earlier because it's unrelated, but the sheer amount of money I've dropped on this Free to Play game over those 8 years is really what's upsetting. I would make a new account and spend the unrealistically long amount of time it takes to hit 30 again no questions asked if I could transfer over the things II purchased. The fact that Riot is willing to throw away long time customers like me permanently over a fluke once in a blue moon rather than a probation period is a rather strange capitalistic outlook.

Here's a system riot could surely get behind- Why not implement a buyback system? Let's see how many times those permaban players come back, $50 a pop.

Apricot Jams1 votes

That's why they don't publicize the details of the system or the real numbers. This way they can do whatever they want, as terrible as it is, as long as it makes more money. Remember that they're owned by tencent and have been for a while now. You think tencent really gives a F about the games quality? They're just cashing in on the Esports craze before the bubble pops.

Edit: after a certain amount of success, just about every multi million dollar company just follows the profits. It's a pretty "normal" (and greedy) business practice. That's why as companies grow huge, the quality of their products commonly start to drop.

Xidphel1 votes

You're just taking small facts and making shit up right now.

Apricot Jams1 votes

Sorry didn't realize we were in a court room. I gave you my perspective. You're clearly not trying to discuss or learn new ideas that conflict with your own.

Xidphel1 votes

""""""""""""""""""""""""""new"""""""""""""""""""""""""" idea. Yeah, I heard your story before. Multiple times.

Apricot Jams1 votes

you're making my point for me with your attitude

Xidphel1 votes

And you're just keeping Aerosmith's "Same Old Song and Dance" in my head.

Apricot Jams1 votes

yawn

Xidphel1 votes

Same.

ModUlanopo1 votes

I think you have a skewed perception of "proper reviews of ticketed permabans" because you think there's some value in increased permissivity, especially for people who are at risk of a permaban. Removing toxic people is good for the non-toxic people who remain and, by extension, Riot.

I also completely disagree with the notion of it somehow being "one sided, unreasonable thinking" to think that the OP's speech was entirely unacceptable. If I had been in any of those matches, I would have reported the OP without hesitation. It's important to remember that speech doesn't suddenly become permissible just because you and the OP don't see it as a problem. The community has been exceptionally consistent over the years in what it will and will not allow.

Apricot Jams1 votes

I'm not excusing his choice of words nor am I saying there's interrent value in increased permissivity. I'm saying that intent is the most important element and is something you cannot effectively rely on a robot to do, or effectively and accurately judge by looking at one sided chat logs. Hell, you can't even tell if the person talking to the enemy or their own team! I agree that it's too expensive to review everything, but there's no excuse to not do in depth reviews of ticketed permabans.

The most important element in judging toxicity, imho, as someone who loves this game and plays to win, is whether a person is throwing a wrench the teams probably of winning, through meaningful action or inaction. Which the smart toxic people are able to do without triggering key words. So even if they're reported they don't get punished.

ModUlanopo1 votes

I'm saying that intent is the most important element and is something you cannot effectively rely on a robot to do, or effectively and accurately judge by looking at one sided chat logs. Hell, you can't even tell if the person talking to the enemy or their own team!

Whereas I think "intent" is absolutely useless as a measure for a variety of reasons:

  • People will lie about their intent in order to excuse their behavior.
  • It's incredibly dismissive of the feelings of other people in the situation.
  • It renders moderation meaningless because everything is subjective on the speaker.
  • It disproportionately affects minorities and outsiders.

If I said, "You're a mouth-breathing idiot who really should have been aborted for the good of us all", saying "j/k, :)" afterward doesn't change the nature of the speech. All you're doing by advocating "intent-based moderation" is saying you prefer a community where people can say whatever they want.

Apricot Jams1 votes

No that's not what I meant at all. I'll repeat myself because maybe you only skimmed what I wrote. I'm not excusing horrendous language. What matters most is the person who is ATTEMPTING TO PURPOSEFULLY RUIN THE GAME FOR THEIR TEAM MATES. In my experience it's one of these people that always begins the chain of toxicity. The source. It's something that a human can easily judge if they just watch the game footage along with the chat. These are the truly toxic assholes.

I get it. Robots are cheaper than people. But ticketed permabans deserve in depth reviews.

ModUlanopo1 votes

I'll repeat myself because maybe you only skimmed what I wrote.

I think you're making an incorrect assumption based on my comment on "stopping reading" the OP.

What matters most is the person who is ATTEMPTING TO PURPOSEFULLY RUIN THE GAME FOR THEIR TEAM MATES.

That can also include the person insulting and harassing other players.

In my experience it's one of these people that always begins the chain of toxicity. The source.

Toxic behavior doesn't suddenly become excusable if it's from someone other than the person "who started it."

Apricot Jams1 votes

I think you're making an incorrect assumption based on my comment on "stopping reading" the OP.

No, its based on you completely misunderstanding what I meant, which I said in the sentence prior, and you again chose to ignore. You seem to only read the parts you want and ignore everything else.

That can also include the person insulting and harassing other players.

Yes, obviously. I already said I'm not completely excusing foul language, twice. I'm saying context as an important variable in determining punishment severity.

Toxic behavior doesn't suddenly become excusable if it's from someone other than the person "who started it."

I didn't say it becomes excusable, man. I swear this is like talking to a tape recorder (just like riot support staff). For the third and last time, I'm saying ticketed permabans deserve in depth reviews by human beings who review in game footage along with chat logs. Repeated instigators deserve the harshest punishment and then there should be reasonably lighter tiers for others unless theyre using zero tolerance words.

Read what I wrote carefully, multiple times, and without injecting your assumptions because frankly it's very rude to misrepresent a persons point and make them repeat themselves multiple times.

ModUlanopo1 votes

Read what I wrote carefully, multiple times, and without injecting your assumptions because frankly it's very rude to misrepresent a persons point and make them repeat themselves multiple times.

I'm not misrepresenting your point. You're choosing to ignore the fact that I disagree with it.

Let me be perfectly clear:

  • You think there should be a manual review of most permabans. This simply isn't possible, given the volume. It's also not needed because the IFS is very, very accurate.

  • You think that in-game footage should be included in review of chat bans because you believe that outside circumstances can excuse behavior. You believe that context should partially mitigate the response to toxic behavior. It has been explained to you several times that neither Riot nor the community at large accept this argument. From a player standpoint, we simply don't care. Yeah, it's frustrating if someone is going off in chat. Yes, it makes us angry when someone runs it down mid. Yeah, we want to tear our hair out when someone blindly walks into a 5v1 they should have seen coming. Despite these justified feelings, we don't accept other people adding to the problem.

  • You think the punishment volcano should be more forgiving. They tried that, back in the day. It used to not be uncommon to see people with a dozen or more previous punishments. Riot analyzed their behavior data and realized that most people who are going to reform do so with minimal prompting. That's why it's 10-game -> 25-game -> 2 week suspension -> permaban, with a fair number of offenses escalated to 14-day. Riot doesn't screw around with low-level responses and repeated attempts to promote reform because people have made it abundantly clear they just don't work and are actually bad for the community.

Apricot Jams1 votes

You think there should be a manual review of most permabans. This simply isn't possible, given the volume. It's also not needed because the IFS is very, very accurate.

According to riot the number of permabans is an extremely small percentage of the community, and ticketed permabans even smaller, so they shouldn't have any problems allocating resources towards this. They're a multi million dollar company dude.

You think that in-game footage should be included in review of chat bans because you believe that outside circumstances can excuse behavior. You believe that context should partially mitigate the response to toxic behavior.

I'll be very specific because your words are general and can be misunderstood. Based on my experiences playing this game since beta, I feel that instigators should be punished the most harshly because they create the butterfly effect of toxicity. They are the source, the seed. I'm not saying shitty responses to these people aren't annoying and tilting deserving of punishment, I'm just saying carpet bombing is lazy. They need tiers of punishment based on intent just like the court system does.

It has been explained to you several times that neither Riot nor the community at large accept this argument. From a player standpoint, we simply don't care.

So let me get this straight. You've been elected to speak for riot and the entire league community? Really? You've collected this data yourself? Please explain to how you're qualified to represent the collective opinion if that many people. I'm sure others are interested too.

Yeah, it's frustrating if someone is going off in chat. Yes, it makes us angry when someone runs it down mid. Yeah, we want to tear our hair out when someone blindly walks into a 5v1 they should have seen coming. Despite these justified feelings, we don't accept other people adding to the problem.

I don't accept other people adding to the problem. Again you're not understanding my point.

You think the punishment volcano should be more forgiving.

For the last time, not more forgiving but tiered and more in depth so the true instigators are caught because clever toxic people who understand how the system works can still be super toxic without using key words and never get caught. I see it all the time and if a human reviews game footage it's VERY easy to tell who the true asshole is. There's a lot of salty kids who get triggered by simple advice like "you forgot to use your ult." And proceed to feed, ks, etc and within that context, their immature reaction to advice is the toxicity source, but riots robot can't see that.

ModUlanopo1 votes

They need tiers of punishment based on intent just like the court system does.

They already tried that. It didn't work. The data clearly showed that the form of the punishment held virtually no relation to the odds of reform. The current punishment volcano isn't something slapped together by an intern. It's the byproduct of considerable research and one of the largest, most comprehensive behavioral databases in gaming.

Apricot Jams2 votes

No one nails it on the first try. They're human, and a well designed system takes time, but also takes will. When everyone is sitting pretty with fat paychecks, there isn't any real motivation or incentive to improve the system.

It's a shame that the most comprehensive behavioral database in gaming as well as one of the best gaming engines in the world is becoming just another money machine. Big business cares more about efficiency than accuracy. I'm trying to shine light on toxicity that's slipping through the cracks, but you all get so much permaban rage on a regular basis that you're confusing me with them.

Clandestine Fox1 votes

That can also include the person insulting and harassing other players.

can . . . can . . . So how do you know when it can and can't? Are you perhaps referring to . . . Context?

ModUlanopo1 votes

can . . . can . . . So how do you know when it can and can't? Are you perhaps referring to . . . Context?

Nope. I'm referring to the fact that throwing the game and being toxic in chat are both purposeful methods of ruining the game for other people. Just because you value one more than the other doesn't make them not both a problem.

Clandestine Fox1 votes

Just because you value one more than the other doesn't make them not both a problem.z

The fact that you consider any and all forms of toxicity, grieving, and harassment to be the exact same level of offense and should all be treated exactly the same is the exact problem with the system,

The fact that you're here to matter-of-factly shut down any and all ideas of change to the current system makes me wonder what it is you're even here for. It's obvious you wish to make an argument, since you block quote and respond to everything with a "yes" or "no" followed by reasoning, but what is your point to be arguing? I brought up an open discussion topic, and you've been doing nothing but playing devils advocate and calling everyone who disagrees with you wrong.

If you're here to look over the thread and make sure no one gets out of hand or off topic, then I appreciate your moderation. But if you're here to attack me and my character and a pseudo polite forum thread war, then you may see yourself to the door.

If you wish to contribute to the conversation, please actually read along and contribute ideas. If you don't wish to read along and don't find it worth the time, then you're free to leave. I didn't request you here to pass your absolute judgement with no basis.

ModUlanopo1 votes

The fact that you consider any and all forms of toxicity, grieving, and harassment to be the exact same level of offense and should all be treated exactly the same is the exact problem with the system,

That's misrepresenting my response to your "topic". You're asking for a thing. I'm telling you that thing has already been tried and discarded for specific reasons. You then loop back to asking for the thing, without having ever addressed why the thing was unworkable in the first place.

But if you're here to attack me and my character and a pseudo polite forum thread war, then you may see yourself to the door.

I really wish you would stop doing this. Just because you don't like the things I'm telling you doesn't make this a personal attack. If you genuinely wanted to have a discussion, you would have responded to the criticisms of your ideas with something other than "I think Riot has enough money to do it anyhow and that's what I want."

Further, you came in here with your chat logs and responded to genuine critique of those logs with "but, I really just wanted to talk about ways I think the IFS could be changed and improved". I don't see how you square that with people telling you that they're fine with the system and the punishment you received. It's your job, not anyone else's, to make a persuasive argument that more manual reviews and increased opportunities to reform would be good for the community. We've told you over and over - quite politely, I might add - why we think you're wrong.

This thread sits at -12 votes. Not a single person has agreed with you. No one has risen to your defense. No one has chosen to engage with you, except me, and I only stayed because there seemed to be a sliver of opportunity to explain some things to you. I see now that you're really not receptive to anything we have to offer, so I bid you good luck.

Xidphel1 votes

The fact that you consider any and all forms of toxicity, grieving, and harassment to be the exact same level of offense and should all be treated exactly the same is the exact problem with the system,

Ulan here sees it as Riot does: ZTP is instaban. Found some in your chat. Anything less than ZTP is still not ok but will only net you normal punishment. Honestly, it's baffling how you jumped to that conclusion of yours.

The fact that you're here to matter-of-factly shut down any and all ideas of change to the current system makes me wonder what it is you're even here for.

Jo0o8 votes

Jesus this post was long.

Look, it's really simple: In a perfect world, context would matter, but that's 100% unrealistic. The average player can not possibly be trusted to determine when flaming would be objectively justified, or to gauge the line between "competitive smack talk" and unsportsmanlike conduct. Thus the simple and easy rule: No flaming, full stop.

Was your punishment just? Sure. You worked your way through many punishment tiers to get where you've gotten. At this point, based on plentiful collected data, Riot has zero confidence that you can reform since you've ignored so many previous warnings against this sort of behavior.

Hotarµ5 votes

Skip to the end for a TL;DR.

Game 1:

[27:42] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): that's cause you're autistic [28:16] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): it's a normal, im doing whatever the f%%% I please [29:00] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): shut the f%%% up you stupid pug andrew credit face head idiot [29:07] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): go ride your f%%%ng sleds all day fa%%%% [29:15] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): literally kill yourself irl [29:40] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): eat sh%% you pug fa%%%% c%%% piece of sh%%

"It deleted my honor level from 5 to 0, and gave me a 1 week chat restriction (or whatever the short chat restriction is)." ** Without even reading the rest of it, right here your account should have been put on a 14-day ban. **

No doubt about it, your chat log was insanely toxic, but the main issue is inciting self harm. No matter how tilting a game is, no matter how toxic your teammates are, and no matter how angry you are, is it never acceptable to tell someone to kill themselves.

Completely unacceptable, it's a zero-tolerance phrase, and your account should have gotten punished more harshly than it actually did.

#Game 2:

[39:03] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): mmkay you tards group as 4, ima bring 3 or 4 of them top so you can do something useful

Hate speech again. Racism, homophobia, inciting self harm, and general derogatory language (such as this towards mentally challenged people) are unacceptable.

Even if that bit of hate speech wasn't enough to trigger the 14-day/permanent ban, you were still negative all throughout this instance.

Now at a glance this one looks very aggressive, but comparatively it's much more tame than the first instance. It's also important to note that the toxicity started at the 24 minute mark (the 17 minute was me frustrated about an enemy gank), when I first defended myself at all from my angry jungler.

That doesn't matter. You aren't allowed to stoop to someone's level and skirt by without punishment or have it be justifiable. Are you allowed to be angry? Yes, of course and I have sympathy for people who get ganged up on or needlessly flamed.

This is not one of those occasions.

Game 3:

[21:31] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): the f%%% are you talking about kid [21:33] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): im like silver 2 [22:33] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): you're r%%%%%eed

Hate speech, rank shaming, general negativity. Unacceptable and unjustifiable.

Game 4:

[9:38] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): fa%%%% [10:28] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): i got camped [11:16] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): fa%%%%

Again, hate speech.

since the enemy team was basically ban-baiting me by doing those cheeky irritating things like /All chatting "?"

That does not matter.

#You do not get to say disgusting homophobic, racist, or derogatory slurs and slide by without punishment because someone else started it."

#Game 5:

[11:26] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): useless sup [11:56] [All] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): report this velkoz, inting the lane and shoving the wave and just watching as i get dove [12:25] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): fucking hacker [12:34] [All] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): literal wallhacks. [12:48] [All] Clandestine Fox (Twisted Fate): reporting xerath

This one is way more tame than the others by comparison but this is still bad. Rank shaming isn't acceptable or productive, asking for reports/calling for reports in game does nothing because it's been officially proven that it doesn't increase the likelyhood of punishments being doled out, and general negativity by calling people useless or claiming someone is a "fucking hacker."

How could the system be improved to better incentive reform within players being penalized?

First of all, you got insanely lucky. Your account should have gotten permabanned twice over, you were lucky that you got as much time as you did because of mistakes made by the system. By your second game you should have been permabanned instantly for two heinous uses of the most toxic kind of language.

like name calling and generally arguing with your teammates, but doesn't penalize you on them until it has built up over time.

Yes, because people make mistakes and can slip up sometimes. Repeated infractions will net more severe punishments which is why a 10-game chat restriction acts as a minor warning and is a deterrent to keep others from becoming repeat offenders.

banned over the course of years just because one day, in one game, you had a heated argument with someone over the internet.

I'm trying to stay as polite as possible, but please, read your chat logs with some objectivity and listen to what you're actually saying.

You used the most disgusting, unacceptable, despicable language one can use towards another person and you did it multiple times over. You didn't just "get into a heated argument", you told someone to end their life, using homophobic remarks, and called people mentally challenged. You'll get absolutely no sympathy from me or 99% of the community.

Another benefit to such a system is that by not banning players who may very well have just been put into unfortunate situations like I was,

Context does not matter here.

You chose to be toxic. You chose to retaliate. You chose to tell others to take their own lives. You had every opportunity under the sun to reform and restrain yourself from getting more punishments. You didn't take them, and you deserved the punishments you got.

#TL;DR

"1. Was perma-banning me really a just punishment?"

Yes. 100,000,000% yes.

You didn't deserve all of the chances you got, and the only person to blame here is you.

"2. Do you think the system could be improved by my ideas, or have any ideas of your own for the devs?"

No. And if it was able to be improved, this is not a scenario in which it failed.

You don't get to stoop to someone's level and put yourself on a pedestal at the same time. The system was totally justified in penalizing you multiple times and you got lucky with the amount of chances you got.

In the future, be more mindful of the people around you. If you have a problem with being flamed, you're perpetuating the cycle by doing it back to them. Don't fight fire with fire.

IMO, you should take a long break from League before trying to come back with a new account. You need to restrain yourself and I say that from a place of objectivity, I'm not trying to insult you. The attitude here is honestly just gross on every level.

Good luck.

Clandestine Fox1 votes

Without even reading the rest of it, right here your account should have been put on a 14-day ban.

No doubt about it, your chat log was insanely toxic, but the main issue is inciting self harm. No matter how tilting a game is, no matter how toxic your teammates are, and no matter how angry you are, is it never acceptable to tell someone to kill themselves.

Completely unacceptable, it's a zero-tolerance phrase, and your account should have gotten punished more harshly than it actually did.

I agree completely with this, and even refereed back to this exact example in section two when talking about my thoughts on how to improve the system. The current system as you can see, only focuses specifically on my chat log, and by removing literally any and all context all you're left with is the impression that I am nothing but toxic. I'd like to remind you that the purpose of this post and discussion isn't to unban my account, but rather to reflect upon the process. My section two reference is as follows:

For example, in hind sight looking back at my reform card now via these chat logs, the very first chat log (The All-chat one against the premade team) I would say realistically should have been punished for the same severity as the 4th one (The very short one where I called the enemy laner a couple angry words) with a two-week suspension. While I wasn't literally as angry in Log 1 as I was in Log 4, the content of what I said was on the same level of zero tolerance. In spite of this, Log 1 only warranted a short chat restriction (because it was only my first offence). In a system that looks at the severity of an offense and not at black marks, I would have received a suspension for that first offense regardless of it being my first.

When I say improve the system, I'm indeed talking about things like that. The system by all means should have 2 week penalized me for that first instance, but it didn't. With that in mind, I repeat the question: Do you think the system could be improved?

Game 3: [21:31] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): the f%%% are you talking about kid [21:33] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): im like silver 2 [22:33] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): you're r%%%%%eed

Hate speech, rank shaming, general negativity. Unacceptable and unjustifiable.

First of all, you literally deleted context out of an already-cherry-picked chat log, which is a huge no-no and akin to fabricating evidence. Let me fix that situation for you. The situation was as follows.

[19:28] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): no ones boosting [21:31] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): the f%%% are you talking about kid [21:33] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): im like silver 2 [21:39] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): thats not really high in the leasty [21:46] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): and you havent even pretended to gank top

Once more to reiterate since I know for a fact you only grazed over everything I put so much thought into. Hate speech, rank shaming, and general negativity is exactly what that jungler was harassing the entire team about that entire game, not me. Who was I rank shaming? That was my rank I was talking about, and he was trying to get the team to report me for boosting. Or for purchasing a boosted account. It's hard to remember exactly what a toxic jungler I was forced to endure playing a single game with 9 months ago, and thanks to context-stripped chat logs like this I guess we'll never know. Insulting him wasn't the proper response, no doubt, but I didn't rank shame anyone. I'll requote my own quote that you have quoted. "I'm like silver 2." This was in response to Lee Sin's, "This Tristana is totally boosted! Report this Poppy for boosting."

Thanks for taking the time to join the discussion, your feedback is much appreciated.

KFCeytron1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Clandestine Fox,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=WGnUisMt,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-12-30T02:10:25.683+0000)

I agree completely with this, and even refereed back to this exact example in section two when talking about my thoughts on how to improve the system. The current system as you can see, only focuses specifically on my chat log, and by removing literally any and all context all you're left with is the impression that I am nothing but toxic. I'd like to remind you that the purpose of this post and discussion isn't to unban my account, but rather to reflect upon the process. My section two reference is as follows:

When I say improve the system, I'm indeed talking about things like that. The system by all means should have 2 week penalized me for that first instance, but it didn't. With that in mind, I repeat the question: Do you think the system could be improved?

Thanks for taking the time to join the discussion, your feedback is much appreciated.

The only purpose of the punishment system is to stop the punishable behavior. Your behavior was SUPERLATIVELY ATROCIOUS and it became a pattern. The only reason Riot didn't permaban you after that first game is because they thought maybe it was a fluke, but it wasn't.

Clandestine Fox1 votes

It was a fluke the first time, and it was a fluke a year later. What kind of inhuman expectations do you have of people? You're going out of your way to ignore any and all context I'm giving you about the situations I was placed in to create your own picture of me as a vile individual. With the exception of the 4th instance, the remaining 4 instances were literally me being bullied until I snapped and responded in kind. Was I in the wrong to react in this way? Absolutely. But your insistence that there is literally ZERO tolerance and that context and motive mean NOTHING in regards to toxicity are exactly the things that make this current system so robotic, uncaring, and unjust. Simply because banning an account is a punishment, doesn't mean it's the right one. At what point is self defense considered toxicity? Riot says time and time again, "You shouldn't have to pander to the lowest common denominator," and "We get that you may have been getting ganged up on, but you are still responsible for how you react to these things." But what options are realistically available? Defending yourself from toxic players is seen as toxic.

Xidphel1 votes

What kind of inhuman expectations do you have of people?

Curious about this part.

At what point is self defense considered toxicity?

Preventing any and all harm from reaching you isn't toxic. It's simply pressing the mute button.

And reading the rest of your post, now I'm REALLY curious about these inhuman expectations you mentioned.

Clandestine Fox1 votes

Curious? I'm telling you that I'm only human, and the fact that I was "SUPERLATIVELY ATROCIOUS" a mere two times in a 14 month time span is beyond reasonable. Do you not acknowledge that everyone makes mistakes? Do you not acknowledge that people can change given enough time and experience? You do not know me, you do not know my character, and you do not know the situations I was in. All you have, is barebones conversations of literally me talking to myself. In none of these chatlogs is there a situation or context, other than what was literally said by me at the time, and a time stamp.

In spite of this mountain of information you would need to actually judge me on my character, toxicity, and whether or not I as a person am capable of reforming, you have decided concretely that there is zero excuse what so ever for anything, and that context does not matter. Feelings do not matter. Simply put, you think that I do not matter.

This is what I mean when I say you must have inhuman expectations of people, for you have essentially deemed me Hitler for having a heated exchange with someone in an online video game.

I don't feel I should have been banned because I was not disrupting the games or my team in any of those instances, I was not tampering with Riot's game through 3rd party programs, I did not purchase or sell an account, I did nothing game breaking and even under circumstances of extreme toxicity and lack of co-operation from my team, I always put forth my best effort to complete the game and assist my team.

I do feel I should have been punished, but the current punishment system is too quick to dismiss players altogether via a ban, and does nothing to actually target toxicity and incite reform.

Xidphel1 votes

Do you not acknowledge that everyone makes mistakes? Do you not acknowledge that people can change given enough time and experience

True. People make mistakes. True, people can change.

All you have, is barebones conversations of literally me talking to myself.

In most cases, I would want to know what's going on in the whole game.

In spite of this mountain of information you would need to actually judge me on my character, toxicity, and whether or not I as a person am capable of reforming, you have decided concretely that there is zero excuse what so ever for anything, and that context does not matter. Feelings do not matter. Simply put, you think that I do not matter.

To quote someone who believes they were unfairly punished:

You do not know me, you do not know my character

See, I only got curious about this inhuman expectations. Way to throw all these accusations my way.

This is what I mean when I say you must have inhuman expectations of people, for you have essentially deemed me Hitler for having a heated exchange with someone in an online video game.

Might want to erase that part. Political stuff is a no-no here. Almost got in trouble with that.

I do feel I should have been punished, but the current punishment system is too quick to dismiss players altogether via a ban, and does nothing to actually target toxicity and incite reform.

The thing about punishment is that, yes. You will react sooner or later. You can't stay perfectly emotionless forever. That's why the punishment is based on consistent behavioral pattern and severity of your actions. If you're consistently negative or toxic, you get a chat ban, then a longer chat ban, then a 14-day ban, then a permaban. There ARE stuff that'll skip the chat restrictions. Stuff like gameplay-related offenses (troll, grief, 3rd-party programs) and chat-related ZTP (Zero Tolerance Phrases) such as that shit you pulled.

And now, my favorite part:

I don't feel I should have been banned because I was not disrupting the games or my team

[CITATIONS ABSOLUTELY VERY NEEDED]

But even if you did, your team ain't the only team in any match. Did you know that in games like this, you're pitted against ANOTHER TEAM and that ALL-CHAT LETS YOU COMMUNICATE WITH THEM? You disrupted the game of a few people. Had you not been banned, you would've continued with your behavior.

Hotarµ2 votes

The current system as you can see, only focuses specifically on my chat log, and by removing literally any and all context all you're left with is the impression that I am nothing but toxic.

...you are, though. Again, trying to speak objectively here.

You are toxic. You're very toxic, I would say some of the most toxic that League has to offer. Just because it's inconsistent is ultimately irrelevant.

Even if I could see what the others are saying, it doesn't detract from the fact that you told someone to take their own life because you got mad in a video game. I honestly wouldn't even care what the other person said because you're both equal in this situation.

Like I said, please stop stooping to their level and then putting yourself on a pedestal.

When I say improve the system, I'm indeed talking about things like that. The system by all means should have 2 week penalized me for that first instance, but it didn't.

I said it in my response, that was almost certainly an error. You used hate speech and normally that is zero-tolerance, netting a 14-day ban immediately. The system is automated and won't ever be 100% accurate. There's not much more to it than that.

Do you think the system could be improved?

Now that I think harder about it, no.

The system doesn't have any room to improve aside from maybe adding the ability to appeal a permanent ban. Even then, I don't think it should or would ever apply to cases like these where you used gross language constantly.

Clandestine Fox1 votes

Constantly? It happened twice with almost an entire year in between. I haven't once put myself on a pedestal. Are you honestly trying to say the system could benefit from a ban appeal system, but I cannot attempt to appeal my own case here and now?

Ignoring the un-ironic bullying I'm receiving from everyone's dismissive attitudes, I find it incredibly unrealistic to even pretend a player can possibly reform, but to only define reform as, "No longer reported."

So how about a theoretical here. How honorable would I have to be to prove I'd reformed after receiving a 2 week ban? At what point can we say you've been good long enough to be reformed?

Riot Support has already clarified to me that they do indeed take honorable behavior into account when determining penalties, so I'll tell you outright that it wasn't a fluke that I had 5 reports on my reform card instead of the typical 4 that would usually cause an account to be banned. You get a short chat restriction, an extended chat restriction, a two week suspension, and then a ban.

But if we are to assume my one extra instance was indeed a fluke, that would mean that my honorable behavior in between negative instances indeed count for literally nothing.

If nothing else the system could benefit a lot more from transparency as to what exactly is causing the bans. You think I objectively toxic, and very toxic at that, but you're drawing your conclusion on little to no information.

"I don't need to read the rest." and "There is absolutely no excuse for. . . " are exactly the kind of close-minded indicators that tell me that while you are trying your best to be respectful in chat, you have no respect for me, my situation, and absolutely no intention to actually discus the system and how to improve it, but rather you're here to dismiss my entire thread with a simple, "Yeah this ban follows the current system's rules. NEXT PLEASE!"

How is that sort of behavior productive? If I wanted someone to pretend to read my case and dismiss it altogether by confirming that instances of toxicity did indeed exist within the chat logs, I would have stopped at Blitzcrankbot's initial response to my ticket.

While your feedback is welcome, I'd appreciate it if you took this discussion more as an open discussion to improve the Reform System, rather than a personal attack on me for things that I've already been penalized for and served my time. I can only take responsibility for things I've actually done, and considering I've only crossed the line on any degree 5 times in the past 2 years, I'd say that AT LEAST warrants a little consideration into the motive of the toxicity and whether or not any other punishment would be viable.

Hotarµ2 votes

Are you honestly trying to say the system could benefit from a ban appeal system, but I cannot attempt to appeal my own case here and now?

I specifically said:

"Even then, I don't think it should or would ever apply to cases like these where you used gross language constantly."

That means in cases like this with homophobic, derogatory, and self-harm inciting comments, you don't ever deserve your account back. That would also imply that simple flame (such as calling someone useless, etc.) is something I could maybe get behind appealing, but I have more terms and conditions that I didn't go into detail for because my post was already so long.

Ignoring the un-ironic bullying I'm receiving from everyone's dismissive attitudes, I find it incredibly unrealistic to even pretend a player can possibly reform, but to only define reform as, "No longer reported."

You're not getting bullied, it probably feels that way because you came here looking for the community's opinion and everyone disagrees with you when you say the punishment system could be improved.

If I came off as too rude, then I apologize for that. Obviously inciting-self harm is a very strong subject for me, I don't ever condone saying it and I don't like to see it. So I fully apologize for any attitude I took towards you, but that doesn't change the message behind what I said.

Everyone here has been very constructive in a succinct or detailed manner on why you received your punishment and how they view the current punishment system.

I'm a player that's been permanently banned before. I've reformed. Why can't you? Nothing was stopping you, and I made it clear that you got more chances than the average player would have gotten.

so I'll tell you outright that it wasn't a fluke that I had 5 reports on my reform card. You get a short chat restriction, an extended chat restriction, a two week suspension, and then a ban.

No, it was most definitely a fluke. That's just a fact, in the first game when you said: "[29:15] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): literally kill yourself irl"

That's an insta 14-day or permanent ban right there. I know how the punishment ladder works, and with zero-tolerance phrases like that, you skip tiers and immediately jump to a two week gameplay ban. I repeatedly said "you got lucky" because you should have gotten a 14 day ban, there is no debating that. It also states it clearly in Riot's Punishment FAQ:

##WHY DID I SKIP RESTRICTIONS? We have a zero-tolerance policy for extreme negative behavior as well as extremely offensive language and remarks made in game towards other players. Since it is a severe disregard for the Summoner’s Code this sort of behavior can result in skipping to a Two week or Permanent suspension. Suspensions of this degree based on negative behavior will not likely be reduced or removed.

If nothing else the system could benefit a lot more from transparency as to what exactly is causing the bans. You think I objectively toxic, and very toxic at that, but you're drawing your conclusion on little to no information.

** You have multiple chat logs telling other players to kill themselves, calling people mentally challenged, and using homophobic slurs. With the information you've given me, you are objectively and factually as toxic as you can get. **

Even if you didn't have that in your logs, your first 10 game chat restriction would have been an indicator as to what's punishable. You negatively spoke to your teammates, called them useless, and asked for reports all of which is clearly outlined in the Punishment FAQ. There is absolutely no miscommunication on Riot's end.

you have no respect for me, my situation, and absolutely no intention to actually discus the system and how to improve it, but rather you're here to dismiss my entire thread with a simple, "Yeah this ban follows the current system's rules. NEXT PLEASE!"

#Yeah, because I didn't spend nearly 30 minutes going over your entire post and making clear, concise statements with fair disagreements and valid points.

I read your entire post, quoted important chat logs while explained exactly how you got your punishment, and gave my personal opinion in addition to Riot's factual opinion on most cases. Remember that the title of your post is "Was banning my account fair & Could the system be improved?" both of which I answered to completion.

If anything, I had the most fleshed out response to your post.

How is that sort of behavior productive? If I wanted someone to pretend to read my case and dismiss it altogether by confirming that instances of toxicity did indeed exist within the chat logs,

The title of your post is "Was banning my account fair & Could the system be improved?" I answered both of those questions to the fullest possible extent, sorted through each one of your chat logs, and even gave my personal advice at the end to try and help you realize your mistakes.

But because it wasn't the answer you wanted, I was clearly ignorant and disregarded your post entirely and my entire summation of your post must just be "chat bad next".

I'd appreciate it if you took this discussion more as an open discussion to improve the Reform System,

I did, and I also gave my answer to your question of "Could the system be improved?" But let me reiterate, just because you seemed to have missed it entirely.

I think the system is lenient enough. It takes time to trigger a 10 game chat restriction, and although your account is placed on thin ice afterwards, the punishment is stern and fair enough to deter most people from becoming repeat offenders. A 25 game chat restriction is again, totally fair and isn't that unreasonable given that these people are repeat offenders. Next up you're threatened with a 3rd and penultimate punishment, a 2 week gameplay ban that puts your account at risk for anything negative that you say. If you don't reform by this point, it's over.

rather than a personal attack on me for things that I've already been penalized for and served my time.

I apologized (in this response) for coming across as rude, but that doesn't change a single thing I've said.

I can only take responsibility for things I've actually done, and considering I've only crossed the line on any degree 5 times in the past 2 years, I'd say that AT LEAST warrants a little consideration into the motive of the toxicity and whether or not any other punishment would be viable.

You actually were grossly toxic in those games. You didn't just "cross" the line, you went above and beyond. I would understand and I would be sympathetic if you simply flamed other toxic people with your average "fuck", "shit", or "you suck/you're useless" type of flame.

But you didn't do that. That's not even close to what you did.

The motive of toxicity? Restrain yourself. Self control goes a long way. I said it before and I'll say it again, you don't get to stoop to someone's level and skirt by without punishment. You acted the same way or worse than them and fully deserved your punishment.

Clandestine Fox1 votes

If you really think I'm acutely toxic as a player and was completely at fault for going off the rails and being the worst human being in the world, at least humor me with a favor: actually watch that TF video I linked.

You keep mentioning that I said "Literally kys" and that it was something that shouldn't have ever been said. I agree. Notice how the time I said that was the earliest instance, over a year ago? Since then, I have never even humored the idea of using that line on the rift. It was a heinous thing to say. But me getting upset and saying "F%%%" really isn't in the same ball field of toxicity as me saying "literally kys." period. Even riot considers that type of flame as "the small stuff." Those things II said in the first report I said with literally zero intent behind, 100% satirically in response to the obvious trolling the enemy team was doing. Does that justify it? No. Not in the least. Should I have been punished? Absolutely. There's a reason that first report was so different than the rest. It's because unlike what you've objectively decided is fact, that I am a disgusting human being that behaves like that every day, and yet only gets caught by the system twice in two years for particularly hateful speech, II do actually learn from the punishments received. If I had actually been perma banned for that first instance, or the 4th instance, I wouldn't be complaining. But I wasn't, I was banned for that twisted fate game. So please, watch that video and tell me if I deserve to be banned for "Abusive and Toxic on the comms," that is the context.

Thank you for your response, and please stop pretending calling another person objectively and factually toxic is anything less than abusive behavior.

Hotarµ1 votes

being the worst human being in the world

That's clearly not what I said.

But me getting upset and saying "F%%%" really isn't in the same ball field of toxicity as me saying "literally kys." period. 

Yes, I agree, and I specified that in my multiple responses by specifically comparing the two.

that I am a disgusting human being that behaves like that every day,

Yeah, not what I said. I'm done with this post after this reponse.

You're making assumptions that I never even so much as suggested. I didn't call you the toxic scum of the world, I didn't call you a garbage human being, I just said you used the most disgusting language possible and that's a fact that you agreed with. Stop over reading into my responses and drawing conclusions you wish to see.

So please, watch that video and if I deserve to be banned for "Abusive and Toxic on the comms," that is the context.

No, I'm not going to watch the video because it isn't relevant to the situation. I said it before and I'll say it again.

You do not get to stoop to someone's level and use the argument that they started it. Context does not matter here because we're looking at your behavior that got you punished.

pretending calling another person objectively and factually toxic is anything less than abusive behavior.

I apologized for any attitude I took towards you, yet I stand by what I said.

You were a grossly toxic player, that's just a fact. If you can't handle that, then don't come to the boards looking for community feedback when nearly everyone agrees with me. Good luck.

Zombie Gerbil3 votes

29:07] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): go ride your f%%%ng sleds all day fa%%%% [29:15] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): literally kill yourself irl [29:22] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): ill 1v1 you and all your f%%%ing buddies at the same time [29:24] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): 1v12 [29:31] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): 12 being me, because you dont have friends [29:40] [All] Clandestine Fox (Poppy): eat sh%% you pug fa%%%% c%%% piece of sh%%

This alone was enough to know for a simple fact that it was a fair penalty. There's no excuse for any of that and nothing you can do or say will justify it. The system did exactly as it should and this is where you need to learn that words have consequences and that you need to learn to follow policies you agreed to.

I don't nor do I need to read any more of what you've said for what you've already said was enough.

Clandestine Fox1 votes

I don't nor do I need to read any more of what you've said for what you've already said was enough.

The topic of this discussion is whether or not aspects of the Player-Reform system can be improved to better target toxicity and apply appropriate penalties on an instance-by-instance level, rather than a consecutively stacking black-mark system, and as such I feel you've missed out almost entirely on the subject at hand by stopping so soon. Of course, whether or not you wish to read further is your choice, but my personal reform card and my explanation of situational context is all for reference of how the current system works in relation to my history of penalties.

Thanks for taking a moment of your time to read my topic though, your feedback is much appreciated!

KFCeytron1 votes
  1. Yes.
  2. No.

The punishment system used to have these smaller, more gradual penalties, but it turned out that it simply didn't work. Continued poor behavior (zero-tolerance phrases, harassment, etc.) after a couple chat restrictions and a two-week suspension is a good indicator that further punishments for such a player would be useless, so the player is permabanned at that point. Helping people avoid such players is a higher priority for Riot than allowing such players to keep using their accounts.

ModUlanopo3 votes

Helping people avoid such players is a higher priority for Riot than allowing such players to keep using their accounts.

That's a very concise and accurate way of explaining Riot's perspective.

Xidphel1 votes

I'd say yes on both counts. No system is perfect and even this one could use some improvements here and there.

KFCeytron1 votes

{quoted}

I'd say yes on both counts. No system is perfect and even this one could use some improvements here and there.

Well, the second question was "Do you think the system could be improved by my ideas," and the idea was to give people a lot more leeway, but Riot tried that and it didn't work, so I still think the answer is no.

Clandestine Fox1 votes

Do you think the system could be improved by my ideas, or have any ideas of your own for the devs?

I apologize for confusing you with the wording of the question. I didn't mean, "Should we implement my suggestion of a new system that performs in this exact manor? yes or no?" But rather, "How could the system to be improved in a more meaningful way than simply adding or removing "chances" to reform prior to a perma ban?"

I feel like the big issue here that everyone's having trouble grasping is that I'm not implying the system should be more lenient on toxic behavior, or that players should be getting away with theoretical murder. Instead I'm suggesting that perhaps "Perma ban" really shouldn't even be an end game for certain levels of toxicity, and that more acute instances of toxicity should be addressed more acutely. In the current system, my first offense which many of you (and my self included) agree received waaay to lenient of a punishment.

So when I outlined my thoughts on ways to improve the system, it was by no means a finished product that everyone should vote on, but rather a discussion starter. It would be awfully conceited to say there was an issue with something, suggest we improve it, and then not even start off the conversation with some ideas to get the ball rolling, would it not?

What ideas do you guys have to improve upon the current system? It can use some of my ideas, none of my ideas, some of the current system, none of the current system, etc. Open discussion!

Thanks for taking the time to join the discussion, your feedback is appreciated.

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