Clarifications on Calling for Reports

ModUlanopo··11 votes·960 views

DISCLAIMER: This is just my unofficial understanding. It does not come from Riot.

When Riot NaKyle made this post, what he or she was trying to say is that asking for reports is not always harassment and it does not always lead to punishment.

THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT REPORT BEGGING IS OKAY.

Let’s look at some examples, all of which assume that the quoted statement is pretty much everything the person was reported for:

“Report Ahri for no skin”

The IFS is able to detect that this is a joke. The report would be ignored.

“Reported.”

If it isn’t repeated, this isn’t all that toxic and the IFS would assign it a minimal value. It’s highly unlikely to trigger a punishment, though it does sometimes appear as the only toxicity in a match from a Reform Card.

Regardless, you still shouldn’t do this because it is still toxic. No good can come of it.

“Report Ahri for feeding.”

This is more toxic because it targets a specific person (the IFS has been trained to understand when you’re making a joke about yourself) and makes an accusation against them. Doing this puts you at more risk of receiving a punishment because it’s much more likely to cause conflict and team breakdown.

Keep in mind that we have recently had it confirmed that every report triggers a review by the IFS, so even a request this benign is unnecessary.

“Report Ahri for noob/unskilled/etc.”

Much the same as the previous, but worse. Personal insults make this a bad idea.

“Report Ahri. Report Ahri. Report Ahri. Report Ahri. Report Ahri. Report Ahri. Report Ahri…”

This is harassment and the IFS treats it as such. This is a great way to earn a timeout.

“%^$#! Ahri needs to stop feeding”

Just to be clear, there is never a justification for racial, ethnic, sexist, homophobic or similar slurs. Full stop. It doesn’t matter if the player is on autopilot from the Nexus to an enemy tower, this sort of behavior is never tolerated and is likely to trigger an escalated ban.

So, there you go.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

38 Comments

AirKingNeo3 votes

I love how your Summoner Icon is Iron Inquisitor and you're also a mod.

ModMod Curator3 votes

{quoted}

I love how your Summoner Icon is Iron Inquisitor and you're also a mod.

They're an Arbiter. I'm a Mod. Two different things. We like the same stickers tho.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

elduris2 votes

Hear hear!

(Would post a sticker but on mobile so sadface)

Chønklord2 votes

Hey, still waiting on a reply from you on my thread about this topic; you wrote a lengthy 'argument' which I dissected.

elduris4 votes

I stopped replying to you when I realized, no matter how I phrase my post, we will not be able to communicate at a level where an actual discussion can be had. Perhaps at a later time you and I can discuss things further. Feel free to add me on League and we can discuss things over voice, where it's easier to flesh out arguments.

Chønklord2 votes

Even though I logically dissected and counter-argued all your talking points one at a time. OK.

So much for constructive debate. I might be wrong, but it seems to me as though you're unable to find fault in my counter-argument and just decided to give up with this excuse.

ModUlanopo4 votes

Please stop sealioning the thread.

http://i.imgur.com/hE8CcXg.png[/img]

Chønklord1 votes

But... everyone loves sea lions...

Mizuki Zahra1 votes

turn phone sideways for full screen lol that's how I post stickers on mobile [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

ModUlanopo2 votes
This Is Your Dad3 votes

I always start the game saying x9 reports on Teemo. I haven't been punished yet.

Chønklord2 votes

When Riot NaKyle made this post, what he or she was trying to say is that asking for reports is not always harassment and it does not always lead to punishment.

Except it is harassment, period. Not only is it harassment regardless of context, according to riot, the community at large decided it is harassment.

Because you only need one report to accomplish the goal of flagging a player, lobbying for multiple reports against someone -- guilty or innocent -- does nothing in the system. It does however, almost always lead to a negative gaming environment.

If you lobby reports against someone who is innocent: they are most likely going to either A) be harassed/or berated by others, B) feel like shit / Be angry for being falsely accused of something, C) waste time and focus away from the game to defend themselves, or D) all of the above.

If the player is guilty of the report reason, they are also more likely to escalate their bad behavior. The same reason you don't get into an verbal sparring match with a toxic player, you shouldn't antagonize a troll/toxic player with report calling.

KORGtuners2 votes

Two arbiters and a forum moderator post and all we have is an "unofficial understanding".

elduris3 votes

There were official posts clarifying the issue. You can always refer to those.

Chønklord2 votes

There were official posts clarifying the issue confusing the hell out of everyone. You can always refer to those.

There, I fixed it for you.

KORGtuners1 votes

There were official posts clarifying the issue. You can should always refer to those.

Fixed your quote for you.

Unless your ego is so huge you are suggesting people refer to the opinions of an arbiter over Riot employees?

Aeszarck1 votes

I've done some reconsidering. At first, I was completely against this change. Then I realized that, as you say, report begging is still likely going to be treated as harassment. It does give some leeway to players who only say stuff such as "Reported" (I agree, that's toxic), but it does have some benefits. For example, when a bot was in game with me, I often wanted to say "I am going to report the bot" because I thought it might make the game a bit less tense and instill some feelings of camaraderie amongst the players in-game; we would fight against the botters together. However, I had trouble saying that because I felt like I was going against Riot's and my own principles of never calling out for reports. With this change, I can safely say that, since the bot has no feelings for me to hurt. On the topic of your post, I agree with you completely. Those situations you describe are unacceptable.

Chønklord2 votes

No, it is a form of harassment because the system only needs one report to work, there is never a justifiable reason for lobbying reports against someone.

Whether or not the player being lobbied against is or is not offended/feeling harassed is inconsequential -- there are many who do feel harassed, and therefore by its very nature, report calling is harassment.

Aeszarck1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bôôsted Bonobo,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=W3ggMxuI,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-04-01T01:20:47.856+0000)

No, it is a form of harassment because the system only needs one report to work, there is never a justifiable reason for lobbying reports against someone.

Whether or not the player being lobbied against is or is not offended/feeling harassed is inconsequential -- there are many who do feel harassed, and therefore by its very nature, report calling is harassment.

I would never do it against a real player. I just think that it might feel better for our team if the bot is on our side or even the enemy's side if I say that I'm reporting the bot. Our side should feel better that we can at least get a bot banned, and the enemy should feel a bit better about their loss because they will see that someone from the opposing team hates the bot as much as they. I think that's worthwhile.

Chønklord2 votes

Just because you wouldn't do it or you have the clarity of mind to know when someone is intentionally doing something wrong or not, doesn't mean the general population does.

Case in point; ** a majority of players do not understand how the report system works and are under the assumption that more reports = more chance of punishment.**

This results in more (unintentionally) false report calling and also more argumentative innocent players feeling the need to "defend" themselves from said mass report calls -- due to being afraid they'll get punished.

Again, because you only need one report, lobbying for more reports in a game will almost always result in someone having a negative experience or escalating the negativity happening because of said report calling. Just because you feel better, or assume others "feel validation" by report lobbying, does not mean the net result is a positive one. That's just your subjectivity projecting onto reality.

Great Muta1 votes

Case in point; a majority of players do not understand how the report system works and are under the assumption that more reports = more chance of punishment.

Riot also doesn't seem to know and I'll tell you why.

Is verbal abuse the same as negative attitude? No.

When I got banned, it was for: "being extremely inflammatory and offensive"

There's no category for extreme inflammatory.

So extreme inflammatory either is:

  • A combo of verbal, negative and offensive, which if true, means various report categories stack together.

  • None of these things, making it its own separate category

Chønklord1 votes

We're kind of getting off topic; yes report categories stack together.

You can be "extremely inflammatory" through being: negative and/or offensive, and/or verbal harassment and/or griefing, etc.

Great Muta1 votes

They made it pretty clear that you aren't getting in trouble for asking for reports, regardless of how you'd like to spin it. Sure you can do additional things to make it toxic, but asking for a report is clean.

“Report Ahri for no skin”

I highly doubt anyone actually does this because it's a waste of time and unlikely to lead to anything.

“Reported.”

Not a single thing toxic about this.

“Report Ahri for feeding.”

Most people would want to provide a reason to report someone. Feeding is an interpretation that can be based on facts. I don't see anyone getting banned for saying this one.

“Report Ahri for noob/unskilled/etc.”

I noticed you didn't say AFK or DC.

Maybe it's not the nicest way to phrase it, but again, most people are going to provide a reason to get someone reported. No more toxic than asking for reports and unlikely to get a ban.

If calling someone a noob, feeder or troll is what it takes to get punished, 99% of LOL players would be punished.

“Report Ahri. Report Ahri. Report Ahri. Report Ahri. Report Ahri. Report Ahri. Report Ahri…”

A little over the top, but most people are going to remind people to put out a report at the end of the game.

“%^$#! Ahri needs to stop feeding”

We don't know what comes before the !, but regular swearing like f words and stuff aren't getting the ban. Feeding is an interpretation based on facts.

Now this part:

Keep in mind that we have recently had it confirmed that every report triggers a review by the IFS, so even a request this benign is unnecessary.

This has to be a review by the automated system as it would take decades to handle every single report.

#The key thing to take out of this though is that if calling someone a noob or a feeder, yet alone any other insult is all it takes to get punished, then 99% of League players should be punished, but that's not the case.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Chønklord1 votes

Dear anonymous: You can keep downvoting my comments in this thread; it doesn't make my points any less factual or valid.

Sincerely,

Amused player.

ModPeriscope1 votes

Just as I've been saying. It's all context. Just saying "report Ulanopo" isn't really harassment. It's not offensive, and since multiple reports from a single game do not increase the likelihood of punishment, the phrase is essentially neutral, and just takes up chat space.

Edit: This is wrong, read up on the original post by Riot NaKyle or Ulanopo's reply.

ModUlanopo3 votes

Just saying "report Ulanopo" isn't really harassment. It's not offensive

Untrue. If you say "report Ulanopo" and I report you, the IFS treats my report as valid and checks the match for toxicity. Riot NaKyle wasn't saying that calling for that report wasn't toxic. He or she was saying that calling for reports is often less toxic than other forms of harassment or abuse. That's what Riot Tantram confirmed. He also confirmed it's the community's aggregate perception that determines what is and is not toxic.

Now, you can downplay the risk of punishment all you want, but it's still there.

ModPeriscope2 votes

Sorry, what I said was wrong. From what I had read, a single instance of report begging alone isn't punishable. When it is punishable, I think there's more context, such as what you pointed out in your original discussion. I agree with what you've said.

Edited post in Italics

Chønklord2 votes

Riot NaKyle wasn't saying that calling for that report wasn't toxic. He or she was saying that calling for reports is often less toxic than other forms of harassment or abuse.

So calling for reports is "not as toxic as X, but is still toxic";

How is this stance ever acceptable?

He also confirmed it's the community's aggregate perception that determines what is and is not toxic.

We were told the community already determined report calling to be toxic (harassment).

ModUlanopo3 votes

So calling for reports is "not as toxic as X, but is still toxic";

How is this stance ever acceptable?

When has it never been understood that some things are more toxic than others?

Chønklord2 votes

If toxicity = punishable, And 'Report Calling' = toxicity(level6), Then 'Report Calling' = punishable.

ModUlanopo2 votes

Absolutely, but not every thing is punished for every single occurrence.

Substitute "going AFK" for "Report Calling" in the example above, as an example.

Chønklord2 votes

AFK's are treated differently and not by the IFS; that's Leaverbuster (if I'm not mistaken).

Either way, using "going AFK" does not accurately work as a substitute in this instance.

[. . .] not every thing is punished for every single occurrence.

Granted. The one exception I can see with report calling not being harassment/toxic, is when it is used as a joke on oneself or as a very clearly ironic joke, as you mentioned with the "report ahri for no skin" part, etc.

However, that's where the line ends on "acceptable" report calling, in my opinion. Anything past that is, and should be considered as an offense of the Summoner Code.

It's dangerous to make report call punishments this conditional ("it's only a level 6 on the scale of harassment, so it's OK!" = BS).

Let me posit this to you:

If I'm told report calling is not punishable unless used intentionally to harass others, but I unintentionally use it to harass others, am I then liable to be punished for using it to harass others?

  ##We know that the system knows the difference between a "false report" and a "real report" as it pertains to the player being flagged/reported; If it's a false report nothing happens to the player. If it's a real report, the player is flagged/punished.   ##But do we know that the system knows the difference between an "intentional false report" and an "unintentional false report" as it pertains to the player(s) lobbying the report(s)?


Let's say we're looking at the algorithm code for how a report is handled in the system.

Report validation algorithm (aka Very shitty 'code')

Report filed against PlayerX {

Verify if Report = valid {

If Report = valid,

Then Punish PlayerX; } else {

If Report = invalid,

Then Discard Report; }

}

This defines how a report and the result against "PlayerX" is handled. Either PlayerX is guilty, in which case he's punished, or he's not guilty, in which case the report is discarded. For the sake of simplicity, we understand the system has a way of figuring out if PlayerX was actually a bad boy or not, perhaps based on his past account punishments for similar report incidents, etc.

##What is not clearly defined is the how the system handles the intent of the player making the report call.

Report validation algorithm v2 (aka Very shitty 'code' v2)

PlayerY filed Report against PlayerX {

Verify if PlayerY(Report) = valid; {

If Report = valid,

Then Punish PlayerX; } else {

If Report = invalid,

Discard Report; }

The Second half we know nothing about

Then {

Define PlayerY(Intent); {

When Intent = Toxic[yes],

Then Punish PlayerY; } else {

When Intent = Toxic[no],

End; }

}

I'm pretty sure i'm missing a } somewhere in there but whatever. You should be able to get the gist of it. Now imagine "PlayerY" making these reports on a regular basis. Some are real reports and some are false reports; is there a limit to the number of (unintentional) false reports? What happens to PlayerY say, after, 20 false reports and 10 real reports? Or 30:5? Or 100:1?

What about the player who's on the receiving end of PlayerY's (unintentional) false reports?

  • If PlayerY isn't punished for making unintentionally false report calls, are we supposed to just accept that other person gets unintentionally harassed?

  • If PlayerY is punished for making unintentionally false report calls, are we supposed to just accept that punishment for the innocent PlayerY?

What about player/game collateral?

  • What if PlayersA, B, and C start harassing/griefing/focusing on the person being report called on? Sure they're liable for punishment (verbal abuse), but the damaging side-effects of the report calling is already done.

  • What if those other players start believing report calling is a valid tool, and start doing it themselves in future games? What if they assume their own accounts might be in jeopardy if someone report calls them?

As I said previously:

Either way, none of these scenarios result in a positive game experience when someone uses chat to lobby mass reports. Since you only need one report to count, there is no reason to ever let report calling be acceptable, conditional or otherwise.

Magical Player2 votes

Isn't it fair to say that the community also can shift their opinion on what is considered harassment since ifs works based around the communities sense of right and wrong(correct me if im wrong) wouldn't it just signify that the community just doesn't see all cases of "report" calling as harassment?

Chønklord2 votes

Sure, it's fair to say that the community can 'shift' their opinions. We have to take Riot at their word for those 'community shifts', though.

So if the community sees it as "report calling = harassment only when 'X' is true", then it's conditional punishment.

Then you are free to lobby mass reports conditionally without penalty:

  1. Falsely 'report call' innocent players of wrongdoing If unintentional, innocent player then: A. Feels harassed B. Is bullied by other players C. Becomes angry and/or frustrated D. Loses focus on his/her game E. Feels the need to defend self F. Some or All of the above If intentional, then in addition to the above, the player 'report calling': A. May be punished for harassment (if counter-reported) B. Creates negative game environment C. Shifts focus of others to "guilty" party D. Escalates chat to toxic levels E. All of the Above
  2. Purposefully 'report call' guilty players of wrongdoing Tends to result in the guilty player: A. Escalating their toxicity in chat B. Escalating their game trolling (int feeding/going afk/etc) C. Harassing the 'report call' player D. Harassing other players that also 'report call' E. Shifting focus of other players from the game F. All of the Above

Not to forget, if 'report calling' punishments are conditional in this fashion, what happens to the player who unintentionally harasses innocent players with 'report calling' on a regular basis?

Either way, none of these scenarios result in a positive game experience when someone uses chat to lobby mass reports. Since you only need one report to count, there is no reason to ever let report calling be acceptable, conditional or otherwise.

Magical Player1 votes

But we don't know if they're conditional Only riot knows.

They stated they're not highly ranked among punishments right? Like they're a rank 6 offence, when punishment comes at rank 4 or more 1-Doesn't care, as it means little what someone on the internet says 2- no change as the person doesn't care. Correct me if i'm wrong

ModUlanopo2 votes

In the example Riot NaKyle used, 5 was neutral behavior and calling for reports was a 6. I assume that's his or her personal opinion. All he or she was trying to say was that report calling is considered less toxic than other behaviors, which we already knew, and that it doesn't always result in a ban.

Magical Player1 votes

So it's like jaywalking? Yes its wrong to do, but really officers won't police for it?

ModUlanopo1 votes

More like cutting someone off in traffic. If an officer sees you, they might let it go, might give you a warning or might write you a ticket, depending on the circumstances.

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