1st Co-OP game today, includes a jungler made me fight 1 v 2 again

KC King Caomanac·Jul 24, 2017·1 votes·427 views

which negates my chance to practice my new champion - again.

Between junglers and the cheat bots, the Co-OP games aren't worth playing, but playing an un-practiced champion is also not fun.

There are ways these problems could be solved, but we must first start with noting that these two situations ARE a problem.

When a player chooses to play a jungler in Co-Op, they must know that they will not face any opposition (thus, chicken to begin with). The opponents will still have 2 champions in the top lane, and someone will get stuck trying to hold that lane alone. This is not a normal way for any lane to be played, thus the jungler element causes grief to the top laner. If that poor soul is a new player, they might never continue with the game itself.

On a positive note, I practice my junglers in Co-Op also, but all I need to learn is if and how to get started, which doesn't mean I spend all game there. In fact, once I get to level 2-3, I join the top laner to make sure they have the 2 v 2 they deserve. For practicing, I see junglers as needing to know how to get started, then later, if and how to kill the Drakes and Baron. No jungler really needs to remain in the jungle killing the easy camps when there is no opposing jungler.

Solution: Make the basic jungle camps spawn only the first time, then they will not spawn again. The large and epic monsters can remain as they serve a purpose giving the buffs. Still without the basic camps, there will be less traffic in the unopposed jungle during Co-OP fights, thus making the lanes a better practice area. (Please note that I am not trying to outlaw junglers, just moderate their involvement due to the impact they have on the top lane)

Second problem - cheat bot programs.

Easy enough, since the programs do the same thing every time, anyone who writes programs ought to be able to identify them, then take action. However, I am guessing that we have players who like having the occasional bot on their team, but we would have to hear from them. At any rate, these are well known, and still do the same thing they have done for many years, thus easily spotted.

Solution - add a remake option when the develops tell us that a bot has been detected. If 3 of the 5 vote in favor, then a remake is set up (excluding the cheat bot).

But, we need to agree that these are problems in order to see them get addressed.

So again, When a jungler joins a co-op game, they make the top laner fight alone against 2 champions. If that player is not experienced, they suffer. as for cheat bots, I don't see that we have any disagreements, so all we need is for Riot to listen up and try to fix it (finally after years).

Since it appears that Riot needs statistics, perhaps I should post a new thread every day that a Co-OP game is so inflicted? If so, there will be a new post every day, as either junglers or bots are present in nearly every Co-Op fight. So no, I cannot do that, but those ARE the statistics. Nearly EVERY CO-OP FIGHT has either one or the other or both. I estimate about 95% of all Co-Op matches.

(sorry, but due to the regular insults and other useless responses, I usually do not return to threads. I have made my points, and am only interested in Riot fixing these two key issues. If they do, fine, if not, okay, I will play elsewhere. I have plenty of other titles. Besides, history will tel us that any effort to improve the Co-OP games is to be ignored. Riot thinks they built it great, and it will never change. This is why these problems still exist after years of its impact).

11 Comments

HalcyonDwellerJul 24, 20174 votes

People who want to practice jungle-routes use Coop Vs. AI games to do so without screwing up PVP games. I don't see how there's anything wrong with that.

If you wish to practice a top laner, use the practice tool or a custom game to generate teams with 4 players each (this prevents there from being a duo-top lane).

Bots are already dealt with, Riot bans them in waves, the same way they ban scripters. This makes it much more difficult for scripters and botters from figuring out how they were caught or how to avoid it in the future.

EDIT: I just checked and you already posted about both of these topics and received responses to all of your questions. There's no purpose to this post except to spam the boards? Please find a better use for your time.

KC King CaomanacJul 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

People who want to practice jungle-routes use Coop Vs. AI games to do so without screwing up PVP games. I don't see how there's anything wrong with that.

If you wish to practice a top laner, use the practice tool or a custom game to generate teams with 4 players each (this prevents there from being a duo-top lane).

Bots are already dealt with, Riot bans them in waves, the same way they ban scripters. This makes it much more difficult for scripters and botters from figuring out how they were caught or how to avoid it in the future.

EDIT: I just checked and you already posted about both of these topics and received responses to all of your questions. There's no purpose to this post except to spam the boards? Please find a better use for your time.

Had to start over since I didn't begin with the premise that we need to agree that these are problems.

Your comments fail to understand that overall logic (which includes things like, first win of the day, which are not available in custom games. I guess in order to post something I have to write the ENTIRE GAMEPLAY concepts).

Junglers do WHAT when playing PvP??? Please describe your thoughts, since they are not mainstream. Perhaps you could re-read the ideas which I put forward on jungling practice. Sicne you chose not to read them, I will do so here again:

As a jungler, I can see a purpose to practice getting started. Which camps to attack first, second, and which epic monsters to start with. Once that has been done, there is little to be gained from the basic jungle camps except solitary gold intake, while letting your team fight undermanned. Beyond that, trying to take out the first drake seems important. So, if you want to justify practicing your jungler, perhaps you are willing to tell us where else you are weak?

As for a custom game, you do not gain first win of the day bonus from custom games. I guess you chose not to consider that with your quick and insulting answer. Yet, you took the time to see if I am violating the Forum Rules, I see.

So, try to research that which is important to the post, instead of trying to find a reason to shoot down the author. Your approach makes forums uninviting (which is why I rarely return to these places, people like yourself here only to find insults)

HalcyonDwellerJul 24, 20173 votes

In other posts you've made it plenty clear that you think these problems are simple and both Riot and the community are simply choosing to ignore them. By taking this personally and holding them at fault for your loss of fun, you ignore all of the solutions already available to you.

If you want to earn your first win of the day you should be playing something you already know how to use and have the best chances to win with. Even if you don't If you want to practice a champion then you should do that instead. By splitting your attention and efforts you limit your potential to achieve both goals.

Fun fact: League has systems in place to help you succeed in 1v2 lanes, one of which is that you get a level advantage over the enemies because you do not have to share your XP with another player. As long as you can play at all safe then you will quickly build an advantage and begin to pull ahead of your lane opponents.

KC King CaomanacJul 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

In other posts you've made it plenty clear that you think these problems are simple and both Riot and the community are simply choosing to ignore them. By taking this personally and holding them at fault for your loss of fun, you ignore all of the solutions already available to you.

If you want to earn your first win of the day you should be playing something you already know how to use and have the best chances to win with. Even if you don't If you want to practice a champion then you should do that instead. By splitting your attention and efforts you limit your potential to achieve both goals.

Fun fact: League has systems in place to help you succeed in 1v2 lanes, one of which is that you get a level advantage over the enemies because you do not have to share your XP with another player. As long as you can play at all safe then you will quickly build an advantage and begin to pull ahead of your lane opponents.

This is exactly why it is best NOT to share one's own style of play, or intent of play with a forum. When doing so, others use it for attack purposes, not helpful purposes. True, you THINK you are helping, but not really.

First, there is no doubt that the community still doesn't like the high number of cheat bots in the co-op fights. They agree with me except that it seems that no one is willing to consider any solutions, but I have put one forward. There might be debate as to the impact of a jungler in the mix, but having one clearly makes the top lane go 1 v 2, thus it has an impact on someone (and I am not saying that no junglers be permitted. Go back and learn the solution I provided with that issue).

Second, whether I use the Co-Op for first win or not (sometimes I truly am learning a new champion), being stuck in a 1 v 2 lane is still different than a normal game, thus not learning anything which is necessary.

Which is a good segue to third, the 1 v 2 'training'. Didn't go there, didn't know about it, but still disagree that it should be a thing at all. I have tried the 1 v 2 thing a number of times, and even though your small part is correct about XP gain, thus leveling up, you get gold starved by the two opposing champions pushing you off the minion fight, or you risk getting killed. Please include all of the effects of 1 v 2 laning.

Now I will only get the "you must suck, then" comments, now that I have shared even MORE with this 'community'. Which is why people leave. Please take note that none of my comments disparage any person or player. Play how you like, and I would like to play how I like, too. However, as in the case this morning, I found all roles called except top, which I wa sstuck in, or leave it open. I like playing the game. In fact, note that NONE of my posts have anything to do with the PvP world. However, seeing how the 'community' is always on the assumption and attack mode, why stick around?

Have it any way you like, but the impurity of these fights happening EVERY TIME is avoidable, but only if we, as a 'community' realize that its current state is damaging to many, even if it is not damaging to those who are here in the forums every day,thus knowing the game forwards and backwards. Give the new people a chance, for Gods sake!

HalcyonDwellerJul 24, 20171 votes

In Coop Vs AI games two champions will invariably push the minion wave into your turret. If you practice CS'ing under turret enough, you will get good enough at it that you will keep up in gold. Keep in mind that they are sharing gold as well as XP. So if you can farm under turret then they will not get too far ahead of you.

Here is a video on how to do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lr5rGAgd88

Learning how to farm under turret is also useful for PvP because players will often try to shove minion waves into your tower to deny you CS (sometimes while you are in lane, but oftentimes at higher levels of play this only happens when they think you're out of lane).

I'm not using this knowledge of your play-stye for attack purposes, in fact I'm providing useful tools and techniques to overcome the problem you are faced with.

ZezockaryJul 24, 20173 votes

First off on the bots, Riot does detect and remove them, but they do so in waves so that the ones developing them dont know what changes to their program tipped Riot off. Your solution would give valuable data to the developers of the bots.

For the top laning issue, imo fighting a 1v2 lane gives you more experience with the champ than 2v2. The bots are so bad they need numbers to pose a threat even if you are learning a new champ. I usually make a custom game by myself with 5 enemy bots and none on my team to practice new champs.

If someone would be new enough for that to be an issue for them then most players they get matched with won't have smite available, so that fixes that problem.

Imperial PandaaJul 24, 20172 votes

I think you may have answered the Co-Op issue yourself. It is a place that one can go to practice without dealing with human enemies. To make it perfectly clear, I am not attacking you, I am merely making suggestions based on evidence garnered from text. Involving the 1v2: since it is usually top lane that loses the player, if one wants to practice a 1v1 they should consider trying for mid. If one doesn't care and just wants experience, try bot for an even 2v2. The bots don't follow a meta so you won't know which against until there. I understand the frustration of being alone in lane, but some do enjoy the challenge of it; do you force them to do the 2v2? (i did say some and not all.)

The jungle change that was proposed: While an interesting idea, I can't get behind it myself. Here are my reasons; 1. People other than the jungle may choose to clear a small camp for gold. This can potentially be a good habit if your lane is pushed and want to avoid overextending but need some gold. Leaving only the buff camps and epics (drag/rift/baron), maybe Scuttle? Not sure if you mentioned him/her and I just missed it. The buff monsters may become highly contested if looking for quick coin. My second problem was mentioned previously with forcing someone to do a 2v2 if they don't want it. Admittedly, it would be nice, imo, if the AI was more aware (at least intermediate) and warded to watch for ganks. Learning ganking paths and knowing the speed the champ can travel them can be a useful tool.

Now the bot problem:

Every online game had this problem in various form ranging from leveling bots, to gold/item farming bots, and spam advertising bots. Game companies combat these by banning them, but don't want to release information on how they found the bots. This is due to information being power. A bot is just a compiled piece of code just like a detection program. Codes can be altered and change behaviors if they know what to change. An example, a couple weeks ago I had an Ez in a bot game and he displayed bot tendencies. The odd thing was he typed in chat once. What he said didn't make any sense though. Is the current system good? It could probably be improved but so can many other things.

Of course this is just my opinion of the topic.

KC King CaomanacJul 25, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Imperial Pandaa,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=UYWhklV1,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-07-24T23:05:37.481+0000)

I think you may have answered the Co-Op issue yourself. It is a place that one can go to practice without dealing with human enemies. To make it perfectly clear, I am not attacking you, I am merely making suggestions based on evidence garnered from text. Involving the 1v2: since it is usually top lane that loses the player, if one wants to practice a 1v1 they should consider trying for mid. If one doesn't care and just wants experience, try bot for an even 2v2. The bots don't follow a meta so you won't know which against until there. I understand the frustration of being alone in lane, but some do enjoy the challenge of it; do you force them to do the 2v2? (i did say some and not all.)

The jungle change that was proposed: While an interesting idea, I can't get behind it myself. Here are my reasons; 1. People other than the jungle may choose to clear a small camp for gold. This can potentially be a good habit if your lane is pushed and want to avoid overextending but need some gold. Leaving only the buff camps and epics (drag/rift/baron), maybe Scuttle? Not sure if you mentioned him/her and I just missed it. The buff monsters may become highly contested if looking for quick coin. My second problem was mentioned previously with forcing someone to do a 2v2 if they don't want it. Admittedly, it would be nice, imo, if the AI was more aware (at least intermediate) and warded to watch for ganks. Learning ganking paths and knowing the speed the champ can travel them can be a useful tool.

Now the bot problem:

Every online game had this problem in various form ranging from leveling bots, to gold/item farming bots, and spam advertising bots. Game companies combat these by banning them, but don't want to release information on how they found the bots. This is due to information being power. A bot is just a compiled piece of code just like a detection program. Codes can be altered and change behaviors if they know what to change. An example, a couple weeks ago I had an Ez in a bot game and he displayed bot tendencies. The odd thing was he typed in chat once. What he said didn't make any sense though. Is the current system good? It could probably be improved but so can many other things.

Of course this is just my opinion of the topic.

To begin with, thank you for your thoughtful reply. Those are rare in forums these days. note that this isn't about myself, as I can handle the 1 v 2 laning, with certain exceptions (depending on which champion I brought). This is about new players who DO suffer from this affliction, and about trying champions to see how to equip them. In either case, I believe it is an expectation to fight 2 v 2 in top lane. When the team has a jungler, again without an opposing jungler, the jungler is being selfish, and the top laner gets screwed. I do not want to approach any such problem by suggesting that the jungler has to be forced out. Even junglers need practice, and I support that (I rarely play junglers, but like to use Co-Op myself, but I pay attention to top lane when I do, and go there soon after I reach level 3. It is not my nature to try to force others to do the same).

You make a good point about others picking up quick jungle camps when lane is not optimum. For Co-Op, I have to say I am willing to sacrifice that in order to discourage long term jungling (my objective with the suggestion to stop the minor camps from spawning, you got that right). As I see it, I find it to be more important the the top lane not be sacrificed merely for the benefit of a jungler having his own way.

Many is the time when I am top lane, and watch our jungler take all the kills, thus all the credit, while not really helping my plight which he put me in.

Just saying. To be pinned down in a 1 v 2 lane, but watch the guy who forced you there getting all the good opportunities? And that is supposed to be fun? Even I, with my experience, do not enjoy such situations. I can live with it be cause often I am merely looking to get my first win of the day. I only get frustrated when either myself or someone else is trying to learn something, but cannot due to the 1 v 2 situation.

Several arguments against any such ideas revolve around whether a 1 v 2 lane is that bad. This is a subjective opinion, which means that anyone can justify anything from any position. I myself find that the bots push me back to the tower quickly, thus stopping my gold and XP gain by getting me out of range of the minions. My other option is to die trying, and I won't. Note that I have played this game for quite some time, thus I have a good idea what I am doing. But the 1 v 2 top lane WILL cost a player both gold and XP gain, though the XP will cancel out a bit due to not having a 2nd champion in the lane, true. But if you are pushed out of range, then zero XP per minion is still zero.

A quick example, recently, I was in that situation, and was gold starved for the first 10 minutes. Then I moved to mid lane, and within 60 seconds (and a kill which I hadn't done in top lane), I had accrued as much gold as I had in the full 10 minutes in top lane alone. If I were a new player, I would have simply died repeatedly, and not enjoyed the game at all.

THAT is what my issues are about. I can handle it, but newer players might not, and thus not continue with the game. If that happens merely due to this poor Co-Op battle, that is the issue here.

Again, this is NOT about myself.

As for the cheat bots, I have been away from the game for a couple years, but the bots I see today do the exact same thing they did years ago, thus a repeatable and predictable action. Your point is once again a good one that, if Riot revealed just what they would be looking for,m the cheat program would change. I don't think I have suggested any specific checkpoint to give that away, but that remains besides the point for my suggestion (perhaps placed elsewhere but the Board deleted some of my posts). Which was:

Allow for a remake by vote soon after the game begins. Riot has incorporated that in the case of absent players, thus allowing a short-handed team to break away from that match and start again. Same concept to avoid the cheat bots in Co-Op battles. Riot has already created it, so let's implement it in Co-Op. For this remake, all it needs is 3 votes in favor.

At least the community has ONE decent member who will interact with others politely, thus generating a decent conversation. I thank you once again. You restore my faith. Still, note that we aren't quite on the same page, but, with politeness, I am willing to discuss. This means that others, with their quick and uninformed opinions, are quite wrong when they accused me of dissing any post which comes with a disagreement. When people disagree with insults, that goes nowhere. When people like yourself, disagree with thoughtful conversation, we get along just fine.