Re-Implement The Tribunal For "Soft Trolling" Report Reviews

Hocker·Jun 26, 2019·3 votes·2,769 views

Riot, How many discussions are created daily that try to address how the "soft trolling", "inting", "afk" behaviors that plague this narcissistic community need better consequences? At what point do you guys finally say "you know, there's probably SOMETHING we could do to make it at least A LITTLE better than it is"

What about opening up "the tribunal" again for this function? Honorable players gain the ability to review reported game replays, and leave it up to their best objective votes. Wouldn't be THAT hard to see behavior patterns of someone being petty to the point of subverting the game.

I'd definitely hand out a "ranked ban" for someone acting like that... and consistent behavior should absolutely be handed suspensions and then perma-bans.

16 Comments

Umbral RegentJun 26, 20195 votes

Riot, How many discussions are created daily that try to address how the "soft trolling", "inting", "afk" behaviors that plague this narcissistic community need better consequences?

Define "better consequences"? Because, as it stands right now, trolling and intentional feeding get a 14-day ban, going-on-permaban for verified offenses. That's some pretty harsh punishment - fair, to be certain - but still harsh. What "better consequences" do you have in mind?

At what point do you guys finally say "you know, there's probably SOMETHING we could do to make it at least A LITTLE better than it is"

You're assuming that Riot isn't doing anything to try and combat trolls and intentional feeders? Just because we're not being given details about the stuff that they're working on doesn't mean they aren't working on things.

What about opening up "the tribunal" again for this function?

The Tribunal had plenty of problems that resulted in it getting iceboxed in favor for the IFS. Particularly, low participation rate (which led to a backlog of offenses and people getting punished way too late for offenses committed even months back), and the issue of sacrificing report accuracy if participation is incentivized (when Riot tried to incentivize Tribunal participation with Influence Points for majority votes, people tended to just click "punish" regardless of the actual behavior, skewing results for the sake of easy rewards.)

Add to that the fact that a lot of the community have a hard time discerning actual trolling/intentional feeding, and you've already got enough problems to prevent the Tribunal from coming back.

Honorable players gain the ability to review reported game replays...

And tying Tribunal participation eligibility to Honor comes with its own swathe of issues, first and foremost being that setting the bar for participation any higher than Honor Level 2 would leave the Tribunal effectively defunct for months at a time each year.

On top of that, Honor isn't an accurate representation of a player's sportsmanship or reliability. It's just a gauge of "how long can you go without suffering a punishment", in the simplest sense.

Wouldn't be THAT hard to see behavior patterns of someone being petty to the point of subverting the game.

You would be surprised.

I'd definitely hand out a "ranked ban" for someone acting like that...

And what about trolls and intentional feeders who don't play Ranked? A Ranked Ban isn't going to bother someone who trolls in Normals, ARAM, or RGMQ. If a punishment can only affect a specific subset of the playerbase, then, IMO, it's not really a punishment to consider employing.

HockerJun 26, 20191 votes

I get that Riot has some repercussions in place for some things, but I'll be honest... it doesn't look like people are too afraid of getting caught for those behaviors.

When I mentioned "honorable players" I wasn't necessarily only referring to the honor system (but it could be a factor to help indicate). I remember back in the old days, when there was the tribunal, there were also references to the hidden "report elo" value an account had. I'm sure the proper players who could do what I'm suggesting could be identified with good honor ratings, age of account, lack-of/low report rate, good "report elo" (if that is still a thing)... enough criteria to where it shows the person has enough emotional intelligence to LEARN how to determine the difference.

To me, it's obvious through the way a person decided to communicate/not communicate and the actions they make in the face of certain things. If their team is trying to communicate with them, and they are just hell-bent on doing something else out of spite... that's an indicator that this person is trolling. Time stamps and chat logs would point to certain things. You could even have a discussion thread on the review where people say "look at THIS moment here" or "do you guys see this pattern?"

Making it a collaborative and transparent effort like that could benefit the community... if not just for the enculturation of awareness against petty narcissistic behaviors.

And I'm not under the impression this is a perfect idea that will solve everything... but I think it would provide some disincentive to know that they could be replay-reviewed more readily than it seems to happen right now.

GatekeeperTDSJun 26, 20192 votes

I don't think it's a good idea to leave player behavior up to subjective judgement, for all the reasons that Umbral mentioned and more.

they are just hell-bent on doing something else out of spite..that's an indicator that this person is trolling.

What if they're just hell-bent on making their own decisions. The only thing that indicates is that they're allowed to think for themselves and make their own decisions. Again, you're not talking about blatant intentional feeding or wandering around the base pretending to not be AFK. You're talking about what you feel is behavior that is going to result in you losing the game.

You could even have a discussion thread on the review where people say "look at THIS moment here" or "do you guys see this pattern?"

A discussion thread to what end? Who will moderate these discussion threads and ensure punishment accuracy? I participated in the Tribunal. Know what I did? I pressed punish a lot because I couldn't be bothered and I wanted the IP. There isn't enough manpower or time to review everything you feel needs to be reviewed and then deliver an accurate punishment with in a reasonable time period to where the punishment will be effective.

I'm sorry, but a League match is not a democracy. If they're playing to win, they're allowed to go by their own methods to do so, whether their team agrees or not. The punishment for making bad decisions is losing the game. If your goal is to get more wins by removing behaviors which you subjectively feel contribute to losses, why are you even bothering to play? You are never going to get a 100% win rate. Ever.

Honestly - it's not fair to you and all the other people who make threads like this to do what you do to yourselves, which is get all twisted up over some losses in a video game. It's a goddamn video game. Can you try playing it, even ranked, for fun? I checked your match history - you win a damn huge number of your games. The problem you're trying to fix here is people being bad at the game, and unfortunately, you're going to lose games because people are bad and make shit decisions. Doesn't matter what rank you are, what region, how long you've been playing.

HockerJun 27, 20191 votes

Also, the old system was about everything... and I'm not suggesting that the automated system that is in place right now is removed. A second layer that the automated system kicks out for review to players/the community wouldn't necessarily be AS backlogged... especially since it wouldn't be full of petty language reports.

players describe things, chat logs have time stamps... you wouldn't have to watch the WHOLE game if you knew where to look and what to look for.

Kei143Jun 26, 20193 votes

The people whom accuse people of trolling typically have a very bad perception of what is actually trolling. Thus I don't trust them making proper judgements.

HockerJun 26, 20191 votes

And that's why I said it should be only allowed to the people who show they have some track record of being objective and honorable. I know that Riot used to have some sort of access to data on our "individual toxicity levels"... I'm sure they still do as part of the automated system that flags repeat offenders.

What about the people who have the track record of good and accurate reporting? Someone who spams reports for petty things is obviously not understanding what the system is about and isn't looking at the code vs the behavior with an objective pov. Someone who calls out the appropriate things when s/he should and has a good track record of healthy behavior themselves SHOULD be trusted.

ChaosLordMadisJun 27, 20193 votes

You still can run into the fact that some might get reported for a bad game and then bam banned or restricted because the person that viewed it or people that viewed it agreed it was trolling..... Even people with healthy behavior in game are prone to make mistakes.

GatekeeperTDSJun 26, 20192 votes

First we have "soft inting," which means "any time someone does something I don't agree with."

Now we have "soft trolling" for which you want people to sit through matches to decide on...what exactly?

HockerJun 26, 20191 votes

That's already the problem... people have their heads in the wrong places about this.

There's a big difference between "doing something someone disagrees with" and "legit troll behavior that is intended to subvert the game for others". The NARCISSISTIC reports for things you disagree with (or if you just didn't like how a teammate failed) are straight up petty bullshit, and that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the things that can only be truly determined through watching a replay, and are not subject to some "perception". It's all on a spectrum. The hard stuff is legit inting, DCing, and win-trading... but then there is the soft stuff like running away from team fights every time or doing things to not trigger the leaver buster while not doing anything. There are a lot of games where I see people obviously start taking petty actions against their teammates JUST to hear their team cry in chat... and I think people like that should be prohibited from playing until they learn how to play nice (and accept the fact that it's not ALWAYS going to go their way or be about them)

GatekeeperTDSJun 26, 20191 votes

And who is going to sit through 30-45m replays to find instances of

the soft stuff like running away from team fights every time

and then determine if the person actually had ill will, or if they're just afraid of fighting, or if they're just bad?

5 Dollar HollerJun 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

And who is going to sit through 30-45m replays to find instances of

and then determine if the person actually had ill will, or if they're just afraid of fighting, or if they're just bad?

Came here to say this. Tribunal was good for catching things like AFK (is everyone else level 12-15 and you're level 5?) or inting (0-20-0 in a 12 minute match). To force people to watch replays, no one is going to do that.

Although, CS GO's Overwatch system is pretty good. The AI has you watch a 5 minute snippet that it intelligently selects to see if someone is cheating. Can't do that in League really.

GatekeeperTDSJun 28, 20191 votes

I think that would work for cases of suspected cheating in League, although I don't know shit about CS GO, I assume that game has a wider range of cheats available.

CharDeeMcDennizJun 27, 20192 votes

give the borderline cases to people, who are prone to make mistakes...yeah what could possibly go wrong there [zombie-brand-facepalm]

HockerJun 27, 20191 votes

Yea... nothing is perfect... just like the automated system. Something hybridized could help. The system could recognize people are getting reports that aren't normally "punishable" and send them out for review.

CharDeeMcDennizJun 27, 20192 votes

review by who?

you can't have the public directly issuing punishments to each other, so that means they would have to have not only a number of people who "review" the games but then you would need ADDITIONAL staff to confirm what those that reviewed, concluded.

no benefits from what I can see, especially on RIOTs end.

YerroFeverJun 27, 20192 votes

I don't think the tribunal is a good idea again, at least not how it was implemented. It had a lot of flaws and even though I had a high accuracy rate for punishments, I don't think it was the best thing.

The trolling thing really needs eyes on the game. You have to sit there and watch the game and I have a hunch that people would just auto punish and not watch the game, which defeats the purpose of the Tribunal.

The Tribunal was supposed to be help from the player base to decipher toxic chat but ended up having way too many people automatically hit punish and hoping for points.

I don't mind the idea of opening up more player behavior review methods, but not like this.