Toxic chat, Permaban chat, not accounts

DarthArchon·Feb 10, 2020·3 votes·3,151 views

Not gonna hide the fact i'm a rager lol. Just gonna make some logical argument that i hope convince enough people to make this change happen.

I personally do not share the ideology that toxic chat should be so severely punished because:

First: Getting raged on is the only way players have to tell the guys inting hard, or playing obvious bad picks, etc not to do that specially in ranked.

Second: IMO words aren't bullet, this is my view of the world but hey, in america we are literally killing the earth with our convenient/easy lifestyle, it's our cars, trip to Florida and meat consumption the problem. Just try saying that to anybody, they'll just push you out of their lives cause they don't want to hear it. We are lacking a fair dose of honesty and strength of character. So imo there is no moral incentive to overly protect people over strong language, it is not riot's duty to protect from or convert those who disagree with those policies. There is a money incentive though to cater to everyone and banning toxic chat make sens there.

Third: the game is free... so i'm just gonna make another account, take 5 minutes.

My main point is that chat is virtually useless 90% of the time so why not just permaban a rager's chat forever? i will never spend again a single dime on that game if i don't get the account i spent 200$+ on back, i'm not gonna recommend the game since i don't take it very seriously anymore. But i can assure you i wouldn't make another account just to chat, i understand it's your game and do w/e you want with it but to me it doesn't justify those radical choice that have other mean to achieve actually better results.

Let me be clear that being toxic in chat and grieving in game, like running down mid and suicide on the enemy turret are 2 different thing. Griever should be banned from the game because they are are impacting the game in a bad way. Most rager i encounter still play the game seriously even if they are tilted and rage so really how bad are their words idk.

37 Comments

GatekeeperTDSFeb 10, 202015 votes

Not gonna hide the fact i'm a rager lol.

And nobody else is going to hide the fact that we don't want ragers in our games. The inability to chat doesn't cure the root of the problem - a lack of self-control. Ragers, as they've proven since the dawn of time, will always find a way to make people miserable. If you can't chat, you'll troll.

LissshipheronFeb 11, 20202 votes

This is false, and i promise you many people would rather have a rager that will carry then some egirl whos going to be afk watching everyone else play the game out lol

GatekeeperTDSFeb 11, 20207 votes

then some egirl whos going to be afk watching everyone else play the game out

Oh yeah, my bad. How could I have forgotten this incredibly specific, horribly misogynistic case that happens all the damn time.

If you like the ragebabies, you can have them.

DarthArchonFeb 11, 20201 votes

Thank you and 100% accurate, i died to someone i thought was completely unskilled, because it was the right call. I don't even try to ks if the kill is best spent on him then me, even though i dispised the guy.

GatekeeperTDS Bot gonna say what i think too much about people like you, you clearly get off thinking the mean dude get punished. I'd suggest to get off your self righteuous delusion. It only make you feel good for no RATIONAL reason

Arcade LuluFeb 10, 20209 votes

People have suggested this so many damn times already But it ain't gonna happen because, in short, it's a shitty idea

But like honestly, why should riot allow people to play their game if those people don't want to respect riot's rules? Like seriously

General Esdeath Feb 11, 20202 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcade Lulu,realm=EUNE,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=RpmN9LNl,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2020-02-10T23:31:13.795+0000)

People have suggested this so many damn times already But it ain't gonna happen because, in short, it's a shitty idea

But like honestly, why should riot allow people to play their game if those people don't want to respect riot's rules? Like seriously

They need to have a youtube video explaining this to popup before your first post on this sub

ModPrandineFeb 11, 20206 votes

Short answer: No, that won't work as people will find other ways to act up instead.

Long answer: Perma-mutes don't work as Riot found out when they tried it before the IFS was introduced. Players would rack up hundreds-thousands of chat restriction games and either continue harassing others with their limited messages or just switch to trolling when they could harass people via chat or both. Some people will just keep misbehaving no matter how many chances you give them, so rather than let them continue playing it's better to permaban them instead.

From Riot Tantram:

It really breaks down into two categories.

1.) Helping players reform 2.) Shielding others from the behavior, at a cost.

We used to issue chat restrictions that essentially scaled indefinitely.

We were able to determine that after a certain point the penalty no longer helped with reform. The 10-game and 25-game counts for chat restrictions are based on data that they were both light enough, and felt strict enough to encourage people to understand their behavior is unacceptable in game and change it.

We also saw that the players in this 'large restriction' category defaulted to gameplay altering means of harassing their team. It caused an increase in feeding and trolling.

The sample size of this population and time frame is huge. Essentially the time spanning from the introduction of chat restrictions to the introduction of IFS.

So my question for you is, would you rather have more feeders and less negative chat?

At the end of the day if players truly value their account and the time and/or money spent on it then ideally they should think about that before they get permabanned and not afterwards.

DarthArchonFeb 11, 20202 votes

Right but harassment after the game is another issue, and in game Grieving trough behavior such as running down mid shouldn't be put together with this.

I'm 200% down for harsher punishment for greiver/feeder all the time. It feel like feediong inting is taken less seriously then toxic chat and it make sens because it's easy to review a chat log, they have no real way of determining if a player is actually feeding or grieving so basically it's riot taking the easy/lazy way here

ModPrandineFeb 11, 20203 votes

{quoted}

Right but harassment after the game is another issue

Pre- and post-game chat is recorded and visible in reform cards, so people can't flame before or after the game and expect to get away with it (assuming they're reported of course).

and in game Grieving trough behavior such as running down mid shouldn't be put together with this.

I'm 200% down for harsher punishment for greiver/feeder all the time. It feel like feediong inting is taken less seriously then toxic chat and it make sens because it's easy to review a chat log, they have no real way of determining if a player is actually feeding or grieving so basically it's riot taking the easy/lazy way here

Taken less seriously? No as gameplay-related offenses are given a 14-day ban first punishment. It's just that it takes longer to punish them due to having to prove intent, which isn't always that simple. If you don't think they're punished then check here. As for chat-related offenses, because it's easier to prove intent chat offenses are given a 10-game chat restriction first punishment (unless it violated the zero-tolerance policy which gets a 14-day ban instead).

DarthArchonFeb 11, 20202 votes

Buddy i've left 2 game recently and nothing happened and got banned after 2 game of raging so yeah it's taken much less seriously even though it's much worst to leave then rage imo.

AneirinFeb 11, 20202 votes

{quoted}

Buddy i've left 2 game recently and nothing happened and got banned after 2 game of raging so yeah it's taken much less seriously even though it's much worst to leave then rage imo.

As he said, it's much harder to prove intent of leaving a game vs flaming so of course it's not punished as quickly. What if your internet had just cut out? If it worked the way you want it to whenever your PC dies or power goes out you get banned, you think that's okay?

DarthArchonFeb 11, 20202 votes

i see your point but as i said, i've left many game often saying gl just before leaving, never got banned. and like in 2-3 game of toxic chat, i get banned.

my first hand (and very honest) experience is that the discrepancy there is too high

Kei143Feb 11, 20204 votes

You could already perma mute yourself.

Go to settings > interface > uncheck "enable chat".

DarthArchonFeb 11, 20201 votes

I do not share the ideology that ragind is not useful sometimes.

Like in the military, being "toxic" can be a way to strenghten character specially in competitive environment and there are a lot of evidence for this, it just won't feel right for people like you, it's ok but understand the rational instead of the ideological.

DegnisyllortFeb 11, 20203 votes

Let me know how raging at someone doing bad in your next friendly board game night goes....and how many friends you keep afterwards.

You do realize the military does NOT TOLERATE “toxicity” between members of the same squad? You are not the leader in League, so you cannot be toxic. You would be punished for talking down to your squad mates in the military, as you are punished here.

DarthArchonFeb 11, 20202 votes

They don't tolerate dumb discrimination, but being told you did a very stupid mistake is totally normal, even after the training you might be teased with the mistake you did. overall bullying isn't accepted. Drill sergeant aren't your buddy will spit orders at you and make you feel like shit just staring at you, it's all part of the drill.

LoL ain't military but there is lvl of competition in the game. The idea that being kind to someone who ruin the game for 4 other players is foreign to most people, but it pay off cause it make more people play the game.

I don't play board game competitively, if i played competitively at a sport and consistently saw one of my freind playing poorly or without shoes i'd tell them in a direct but honest way at first and the more they show lack of care for the game the harsher i'd get until they feel they need to go play other games... :O just like most rager, at first a lil passive agressive comment, that end up in toxic chat. My friends, guess what? know me and understand this about and understand it. Why do you guys think you have the moral high ground and keep push beyond the rational point. I believe it's ok for this game to be competitive and feeling bad for ruining the game should happen from time to time.

DegnisyllortFeb 11, 20203 votes

Someone who has no experience with the military besides Hollywood should shut up and realize when they’re wrong. (Btw thats you).

And even if it were true, in game YOU ARE NOT A DRILL SERGEANT. You are a player who depends on your team. You do not know how to properly play, or else you would be pro, so you have no right telling others how to play.

DarthArchonFeb 11, 20202 votes

Almost every high end/ very competitive area of live has some for of the "toxicity" i'm talking about for a reason. Have you read how Steve Jobs was as a boss? From tech industry, to military to high end sports. In how many of those have you been?

Someone who has no experience with the military besides Hollywood should shut up and realize when they’re wrong. (Btw thats you) Ironical

DegnisyllortFeb 11, 20202 votes

Yeah....you are obviously a 14 year old thinking they actually know how the world works. Ironic that you’re trying to sound intelligent when its actually the opposite.

DarthArchonFeb 11, 20202 votes

Well you're the only one condescending the other and the first to throw ad hominem so... go on feel comfy on your cardboard throne

DegnisyllortFeb 12, 20203 votes

Don’t complain when you lose your account/job/friends in you life then.

Kei143Feb 11, 20203 votes

You've been watching too many military movies?

DegnisyllortFeb 11, 20203 votes

You expect immature babies who don’t have the self control to not be a jerk in chat to be able to play a game without being able to talk? They’ll just channel their baby-rage into trolling/soft inting instead.

DarthArchonFeb 11, 20202 votes

I think raging against someone who play very poorly is warranted. Do you know why there is "toxic masculinity" in every military unit on earth? It built up your character, if you can't take harsh criticism you're probably not gonna make it trough seeing your best friend's head blow appart in front of you.

Go look around at other mobas... lol if for the babies, champ design shows it (zoe,neeko,etc). The game is clearly not focused on competitiveness compared to other mobas. this also affect the quality of the game overall. You have duo that take dumbass combo that can never work just because it feel cute.

You condescend people calling them baby while sitting on the baby king's throne.

DegnisyllortFeb 11, 20206 votes

The only thing is....this isn’t the military. You aren’t being toxic to make someone better and you know it. All we see is baby-ragers who don’t have the social maturity to not be a jerk. Thats it, end of story. This is a video game, not the military (and I highly doubt the military is saying “I hope your mom dies slowly of cancer while you watch then you die as well”) Toxicity is NEVER warranted in a video game. Adults play video games to have fun, not baby sit a bunch of man-babies who can’t control themselves. Riot expects you to be a mature adult, and have some self control.

DarthArchonFeb 11, 20201 votes

You aren’t being toxic to make someone better and you know it. Not my point, i rage on someone so he think twice before playing something that end up qith a 0/8/3 kda. We are not gonna agree here

All we see is baby-ragers who don’t have the social maturity to not be a jerk Your opinion and personal way of seeing this, i don't share it so does many others. Why is it that i can take toxic chat without a shred of damage to my own self-esteem, as the mature adults need riot's to ban people from saying stuff to them? If it's so immature and under you, why not just ignore it? Cause that's not the reason, riot want to protect the frail and keep them in their game. It's a business decision, not "mature adult" decision.

Toxicity is NEVER warranted in a video game ideological and doesn't understand that harsh criticism work for increasing competitiveness, Has this game any lvl of competitiveness? I think it does. Have you ever worked at an 5 stars restaurant? The climate is toxic 95% of the time for a reason, it's high end. Here again we are not gonna agree cause you are ideologically motivated not realistically motivated.

Adults play video games to have fun, not baby sit a bunch of man-babies who can’t control themselves Idk what to tell you cause you are missing all my point. Mainly, again, because you are ideologically motivated. I only play ranked for the competitive aspect of it, fun for me come from winning... i don't play for casual fun, losing, scpecially hard stomp are never fun even when i'm on the team stomping.

Basically you just showed how you are missing my point and try to condescend people who don't agree with you for reason that do applie in many area of life. Reason you simply dislike cause of your feelings. It's ok but irrational and other means would achieve the same result without being only ideological.

DegnisyllortFeb 11, 20205 votes

Its not irrational. Irrational is expecting others to appreciate or grow from your tantrums in game. We are here to play, not babysit.

DarthArchonFeb 11, 20201 votes

Lol it's tantrum to you, a mean to make bad player feel bad about their poor choices to me. Never gonna agree here papa

DegnisyllortFeb 11, 20202 votes

Well don’t complain when you lose your account then.

AneirinFeb 11, 20203 votes

{quoted}

I think raging against someone who play very poorly is warranted.

That's nice. Pity you're wrong, and you agreed this when you made the account and agreed to Riot's terms.

Do you know why there is "toxic masculinity" in every military unit on earth?

Firstly, prove it. Secondly, this is a video game, not the military. There's several significant differences.

KFCeytronFeb 11, 20203 votes

Riot's punishment system used to hand out stacking chat restrictions, such that consistently toxic players basically had a permanent chat restriction. Unfortunately, it turns out that such players used their few chat opportunities to be toxic, and, when they couldn't be as toxic as they wanted to, they resorted to committing non-chat offenses such as griefing (following someone around and taking their farm, using wall abilities to interfere with their play, etc.) or inting. The purpose of the punishment system is to eliminate rule-breaking, not make it worse. Thus, if a couple chat restrictions don't make any difference in a player's misbehavior, the system ramps up the punishments until the player is permabanned and thus unable to use that account to break any more rules ever again.

According to Riot Tantram:

It really breaks down into two categories.

1.) Helping players reform 2.) Shielding others from the behavior, at a cost.

We used to issue chat restrictions that essentially scaled indefinitely.

We were able to determine that after a certain point the penalty no longer helped with reform. The 10-game and 25-game counts for chat restrictions are based on data that they were both light enough, and felt strict enough to encourage people to understand their behavior is unacceptable in game and change it.

We also saw that the players in this 'large restriction' category defaulted to gameplay altering means of harassing their team. It caused an increase in feeding and trolling.

The sample size of this population and time frame is huge. Essentially the time spanning from the introduction of chat restrictions to the introduction of IFS.

So my question for you is, would you rather have more feeders and less negative chat?

DarthArchonFeb 11, 20201 votes

I know that but why mix everyone there in the same basket and not then ban those who grieve? Btw griever are not punished as seriously as toxic player in chat and we all know it, as i said in a comment above, i've left game more often then i raged in others and got ban for toxicity, but never for leaving... Even some week i left game more often then i raged in, never ever got banned from leaving, got countless ban for chat...

this is done wrong and we know it

KFCeytronFeb 11, 20202 votes

{quoted}

I know that but why mix everyone there in the same basket and not then ban those who grieve? Btw griever are not punished as seriously as toxic player in chat and we all know it, as i said in a comment above, i've left game more often then i raged in others and got ban for toxicity, but never for leaving... Even some week i left game more often then i raged in, never ever got banned from leaving, got countless ban for chat...

this is done wrong and we know it

You might want to actually read what I posted.

DarthArchonFeb 11, 20201 votes

I've seen the post elsewhere, and my answer still hold. You assume every player who is toxic in chat will grief in game like this. It's not the case with someone like me. I've dies to save someone who i raged on because it was the good call, i don't even ks to piss the guys off.

That's why i think riot's measure are radical, they clearly are ideologically motivated primarily imo

KFCeytronFeb 11, 20204 votes

{quoted}

I've seen the post elsewhere, and my answer still hold. You assume every player who is toxic in chat will grief in game like this. It's not the case with someone like me. I've dies to save someone who i raged on because it was the good call, i don't even ks to piss the guys off.

That's why i think riot's measure are radical, they clearly are ideologically motivated primarily imo

I'm not assuming anything. Riot tried this, and it ended up increasing negative gameplay behaviors instead of helping people reform. The punishment system isn't set up specifically for your personal benefit.

Tele IIFeb 13, 20201 votes

1: disagree. Getting raged on is not the only way to let people know they're doing something wrong. If you think it is, seek therapy and never have children please, or else you will rage at them for every mistake apparently.

2: yeah, its not a morality thing. Its for the game. The rules dont apply to life. They apply to the confines of the game only, to deter the behavior that got league its toxic reputation and scares away many many potential paying customers.

3: then why do you care about the permaban? Its still a deterrent. It hurts to have that progress taken away no? Otherwise you woulddnt be here making this thread.