One of the biggest things that killed my trust in the report system

Marshbouy·Dec 18, 2016·22 votes·1,689 views

is the fact that a few months ago I was not punished, even with a small chat ban. I used to be super toxic, I think I afked after raging at my team at least 3 times in a week. After I would cool down and go do something else, I always feared the impending punishments. But they never came, ever. This really hurt my trust in the report system. Anyone who looked at my chat logs would realize I was being incredibly toxic. The only things I didn't call my teammates were the big no no words, the ones that get censored with % on the boards. Eventually I cleaned up my act, now I rarely say anything toxic except for maybe a sarcastic "GJ Yasuo" when they dive 1v3 and die.

I seriously question if reporting people does anything anymore.

30 Comments

Kid SicarusDec 18, 201615 votes

I'm sorry but personally I think that the LoL punishment system enables poor behavior, internet trolling, and cyber bullying. Most of what Ulanopo has said is good, great, and grand when taken at face value. However there are several areas where they (Riot) fail to understand that their system simply does not EFFECTIVELY eliminate the gross, inherently racist, overly-negative people who really don't care from their community.

For instance, there is no feedback from the report system save a message saying someone was punished based on your report. Ok great, but what about the guy that called someone a ni**er in my last game? I received no message about him. What about the kid who called me gay, a retard, and a fuckwit the next game? No feedback either.

Second, the punishments themselves have no foundation with which to fall back on. Seems like the primary focus is business, not the community. I say this because if you look at Riot's progressive punishment plan, it starts with a 10 game chat ban. You can still play the game, you're just very limited in chat. From there it moves to a 25 game chat ban, and then onto the actual suspensions.

Here we see the flaw by simply viewing it in the objective sense rather than subjectively. You get a chat ban, whoopdie-doo, you'll be back after 10 quick ARAMs to call someone else a douchewaffle or a dungbiscuit because they didn't gank when you wanted them to gank. Same with the 25 game chat ban. However, the real slap in the face to the generally polite comes with the permanent suspensions. Ok so you permanently banned my account, well I'll just create another email address and make another account. Guess what, I'm back to being a 12 year old kid daddy didn't love enough, using my superior vocabulary to torment relatively nice people while they attempt to play a game to relieve some stress. Riot has no outlet for permanently discarding or rehabilitating the people who do not feel the need to "clean up their act".

Furthermore, the justice is skewed. I have experienced this personally. I was in a game where I started 0/6, had a horrible start. I got dogpiled on by 4 other people. I was called retarded, gay, %%%got, worthless, piece of shit, you name it, it was there, verbatim. FYI that's not a bad day Ulanopo, that's being a natural asshole. So I started to defend myself. I had begun to turn things around in game, and I can admit, I became super toxic in retaliation, and my reason is because even as I took the lead in CS and kills, they still didn't stop calling me names and flaming me. Yes I could have muted them all, but the double standard should work in my favor as well in that THEY could have muted me. Turns out most of my toxic teammates reported me. I reported each one of them. The result? No feedback on any of them being punished, but I got a 10 game chat ban and a convenient reminder every time I logged on to clean up my behavior, to which I had to click "I understand". So, objectively these 4 people were basically told it was ok to dogpile someone having a bad game and then be vindicated through this ridiculous report system when that person has had enough. This shouldn't be the standard anywhere.

The problem is right there in Ulanopo's reply. Triggering a review is difficult if you don't report someone. So when 4 people pile on and report you, it triggers a review against you. If you are the only one reporting them, it appears to do nothing. Designed to give players some slack? Where was my slack when you only sent me a copy of what I said in that game? Why weren't the other 4 people who were negatively affecting gameplay in the chat text? Was I talking to myself? Did I click the report button for no reason? You're not showing decent players any justice like that. NO ONE should ever be expected to accept that type of behavior and language directed at them just because you have installed a mute function in your game and sprinkled a few conduct rules on your EULA. I will probably get a 25 game chat ban if I ever experience that type of flaming or bullying again.

It's not perfect, and it never will be. I suppose it must be deemed as an acceptable side effect of having a worldwide, millions+ community. As of right now, this report system is a joke. There is no justice, and there is no TANGIBLE consequence. That's why most people are saying things like "go ahead and report me" in game. It's like a wrist slap. They know they can go be assholes on their smurfs.

Being in the military, I am not one to bring a complaint to the boss without having a solution or an idea to toss on the table. As a suggestion, change one of the chat bans to a store ban, i.e. you can't buy anything (IP or RP) for 10 days if you've been a dick. Deny RP/IP accrual. Deny party queuing. Put in a negative experience initiative, where you lose levels for being a toolbag. If they are always going to be able to play through smurfs or regulated chat (aside from permanent bans), dump on their ACTUAL gameplay like they have ours. Things like that would totally show the community you're trying to make it better.

Thanks.

KrystleDec 18, 20162 votes

[deleted]

Kid SicarusDec 18, 20162 votes

Much love bud, thanks for the respect. I dunno I just got fed up with the same old same for so long and decided to let it all out. Glad I was able to put it into tactful/meaningful words for some. Hope things go well for you also.

ModUlanopoDec 19, 20162 votes

The problem is right there in Ulanopo's reply. Triggering a review is difficult if you don't report someone. So when 4 people pile on and report you, it triggers a review against you

That simply isn't true. It takes a lot more than game to trigger a review unless you do the things you mentioned your teammates doing. I would be willing to bet that they all got punished after that match.

Do I think Riot could be a whole lot more transparent about behavior systems? Abso-fucking-lutely. Check out my posting history, especially on the old TBI. Half my "job" is poking Riot to do better, always has been.

As far as your complaints about chat bans go, you illustrate the problem perfectly with your story.

I was in a game where I started 0/6, had a horrible start.

"FeederBuster" (the system doesn't seem to have a formal name) is the youngest and least sophisticated of the behavior systems precisely because it's difficult to differentiate a "horrible start" from someone who loses their lane and decides to throw to get it over more quickly. If you played old-school Arathi Basin in WoW, at least in the vanilla days on Zul'Jin, this was a huge problem (not for me, I was Horde and we won all the time).

The point is, the feeding detection system is effectively still in early beta. That's why people need to be reporting all the feeding they see. Chat systems got better over time. This will too.

So I started to defend myself.

Which you understand is not okay, so I'm not going to argue the point.

Why weren't the other 4 people who were negatively affecting gameplay in the chat text?

Because nothing they said justified your behavior. If you and I get into an argument in a movie theater, we're both getting kicked out.

Yes I could have muted them all, but the double standard should work in my favor as well in that THEY could have muted me.

The presence of the mute button never changes your responsibilities. To say otherwise is like me saying your ability to take a punch justifies me taking a swing at you.

Here we see the flaw by simply viewing it in the objective sense rather than subjectively. You get a chat ban, whoopdie-doo, you'll be back after 10 quick ARAMs to call someone else a douchewaffle or a dungbiscuit because they didn't gank when you wanted them to gank. Same with the 25 game chat ban.

Eloquently and succinctly put. It's rare to see such a clean expression of this argument and I understand your frustration. Unfortunately, you're not seeing the underlying intent and structure of the punishment system.

You see, Riot did some experimentation with punishment and found something interesting: any punishment is ~50% effective the first time and loses about 50% effectiveness with each repetition, regardless of where you start, how you escalate, how many steps there are, etc.

In the days of the Tribunal, it was possible for someone to be punished 9 to 14 times before they lost their account. When they realized the nature of punishment didn't really matter, they changed two things: they reduced the number of steps to four and they engineered the first two steps so as to directly address the most common problem (This was the end result, the dreadful "500 chat bans" era preceded it. Lord what a cock-up.).

Intentional feeding bans already skip to step 3 (14-day suspension), so I don't know how much more strict you expect them to be. It's very possible to get a feeding ban and come out of it, only to get wrecked by a behavioral ban.

Being in the military, I am not one to bring a complaint to the boss without having a solution or an idea to toss on the table.

I would love to debate your suggestions in a different thread. I think the community would benefit from the discussion..

Kid SicarusDec 19, 20161 votes

Ulanopo, first let me say thank you for the reply. Second, I didn't even expect one.

While I could go around and around about responsibilities and who should be accountable, I can see your point on some of these quotes. If only the individuals in that game (or several others for that matter) could read and understand this post/thread, everything would be right in the world of LoL.

With regards to your debate in a different thread, I am not common to the forums (this has been my first and only post). However, I will poke around and find the suggestion forum to project my ideas. As a player and a customer of over 6 years, my intent to continue has merged with the need to see the community evolve. Call it getting older I guess.

Again, thank you. It's good to know you guys are watching.

ModUlanopoDec 19, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Soggybottom,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=RQBVzWtt,comment-id=000500010000,timestamp=2016-12-19T02:24:47.271+0000)

Ulanopo, first let me say thank you for the reply. Second, I didn't even expect one.

Any time.

While I could go around and around about responsibilities and who should be accountable, I can see your point on some of these quotes. If only the individuals in that game (or several others for that matter) could read and understand this post/thread, everything would be right in the world of LoL.

If I can alleviate any small portion of your frustration, I consider that success. I volunteer for people like you far more than I volunteer for them.

With regards to your debate in a different thread, I am not common to the forums (this has been my first and only post). However, I will poke around and find the suggestion forum to project my ideas. As a player and a customer of over 6 years, my intent to continue has merged with the need to see the community evolve. Call it getting older I guess.

I believe that a discussion on the relative merits of alternative punishments belongs in PB&M and I would love to see more discussions along those lines on the board. It would be nice to cover more than, "no, carrying does not grant you permission to be a total dungbiscuit," which, by the way, is a term I am totally going to steal.

Again, thank you. It's good to know you guys are watching.

You're most welcome.

ShaolinToiletDec 19, 20161 votes

Can you tell me why the word "kys" doesn't get someone banned

ÏnsidiousDec 19, 20161 votes

Because, like most things, it depends on context.

For example, if I miss a bush with a ward, or (when jungling) smite a canon away from a laner or get into a fight over blue buff with my midlane (This is in normals with friends) I might get a 'kys' in chat as a joke. I might make fun of someones skin, 'kys', if my volibear support decides he feels like going on a rampage and bite-executing every enemy that is near me when low, I might toss out a 'kys'

Of course if someone is degrading you and meaning it harmfully, then sure, they should be punished, but then you also have to consider how the person sending the message intended it to be taken.

If he means it as a joke, and you take it as an attack on your person, who is really in the right?

flesh0119Dec 19, 20161 votes

Obviously the person shouldn't be joking like that if the other person can take it offensively. But then again punishments rarely happen when I report someone for harassment and its only when a premade all report the random that they happen.

ModUlanopoDec 18, 201610 votes

I think there are three things most people don't realize about Riot's behavior systems:

They're designed to give players some slack.
They're designed to prioritize false negatives over false positives.
They're designed to adapt to the community and sub-community.

If people don't report you, it's much more difficult to trigger a review and that's intentional. Sometimes, tempers are going to flare. Riot understands that. People who are aware they're being toxic and care about it almost always overestimate their toxicity. Introspection leads to observation bias.

You also cleaned up your act. Something like two-thirds of the toxicity in League comes from ordinary people simply having a bad day. The behavior systems look for persistent or highly toxic behavior. Again, someone who is thinking about what they do and how it affects other people isn't likely to be toxic enough to trigger a review.

Reports work. You have only look at all the posts on this board crying about a ban to see that they do.

KrystleDec 18, 20161 votes

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ModUlanopoDec 18, 20162 votes

I'm not aware of any projects in that area, no. I do know that Riot is aware of the suggestion, however.

The problem lies in how Riot allocates resources. If there's something that will benefit 60% of the player base as compared to 20% of the player base, they will push much harder for the former every time. They put effort into the new Tribunal, for example, only to shelve it in favor of the new game client. It can be frustrating, but that's just how they work.

KrystleDec 18, 20162 votes

[deleted]

ModUlanopoDec 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I do appreciate their constant improvement of the game (and your prompt response on this matter), but from the pace of things they really look understaffed. Wish they had more guys, for a company of their size and player base it would only benefit everyone.

Unfortunately, their being understaffed is a combination of very high standards and a lack of qualified candidates, given that the computer game development/MOBA industry doesn't train or employ all that many people.

Sraeg2013Dec 18, 20166 votes

I lost my trust in the report system when back in May 2015 I got spammed with chat restrictions for 16 months.

You'd say it was deserved, but when I kept my cool and purposely only wrote positive things in the chat for all 160 games of one of my restrictions and then got rewarded with 620 more games.

What's the fucking difference then?

Ironically my restrictions ended when I came back to my May 2015 self, making sarcastic remarks, not shying away from calling people idiots when they obviously were idiots and more often than not, calling out to people for their uselessness.

The only restriction I got since was for over-using the "f*got" word for like a whole day in at least 5 games.

420 gramsDec 18, 20165 votes

I had someone repeatedly call me the n word as well as very many other things that I thought just wouldn't be tolerated. They never got punished. Feels bad man. Since then I don't waste my time reporting because if everything that person said wasn't bannable, then nothing is.

Rank BatteryDec 19, 20163 votes

Personally, I don't care what people type in chat or say to each other. The only toxicity I care about is trolling, AFKing, inting, and generally anything that hinders my gameplay. If someone is saying super toxic things but playing well, I don't care at all. That's why the mute function exists

JunkοDec 18, 20162 votes

Same, the worst I ever got was a lower priority queue, but that's automatic if you leave enough, and even then it took me 2 games in the same day to get punished.

Troll for TrumpDec 19, 20162 votes

Most of the time, people aren't just inherently toxic. They don't usually just come in branding flaming pitchforks and raging at everyone. It's often because of some gameplay aspect. Because people always naturally think only about themselves, they will get triggered when people don't do things around them, which in turn triggers everyone else, because they feel that person isn't playing around them.

There are other cases too. This week, because of apoor early game, I had to 1v5. Nothing I could do about that. I can't AFK. I can't rage. I can't do a thing in game.

Had a 4v5, where the person afk'd in the middle, and sat running around in the nexus. No remake, No AFKing, No complaining(too toxic apprantly) nothing to do. It's a loss, and we can't do sht about it.

Just had a game earlier where there was an int feeding "support ashe" who was roaming everywhere and just trolling. You can't do sht about that.

Things you can't control will lead to negative responces. The behavior of teammates, how good they are at the game, etc.

TheGr8WhiteDDec 19, 20162 votes

Honestly, the single biggest problem in the report system is the lack of feedback. Why in the fuck does Riot expect me to write out a paragraph, citing quotes of what a person did, going into detail just to make them go through the logs, when I have absolutely no way of knowing if it did anything? Why should i bother reporting someone If i have no idea if it did anything?

If there is no direct personal incentive to do something, which would infact benefit a party (Riot), yet said party does nothing to tell you your actions were even acknowledged...why bother?

S0kaXDec 18, 20161 votes

Same, altough I didn't call people things censored with % I was still pretty toxic and I was more than sure I would get banned, but nope. Now I don't flame. Also my friend is REALLY toxic and he even trolled in a game, and I reported him and nothing.

GULAG 4 UDec 18, 20161 votes

I'm toxic whenever I play yi and go in 1v5 and die with a triple : ^)

DanjengDec 18, 20161 votes

Never knew there were censors. Just typed some words to test them out.

Dominick DestineDec 19, 20161 votes

You must be severely exaggerating the egregiousness of your offenses.

Occam's Razor.

23504888DEL1Dec 19, 20161 votes

I got a message from riot several times that my report resulted in a punishment of whoever i reported so i guess they get punished, but only with a several game chat restrictions. and to be honest i don't think the harsher punishments are really needed.

Blu3WulfDec 19, 20161 votes

You are absolutely right. Businesses like Riot Games have God to deal with in the end. They are worse than pedophiles. The gaming industry will go down in flames because these people rob the poor and make the poor WORK for FUN in a video game. These people were either raised by jews or they are nazis. They are useless living creatures, and like I said, God will eat these people in Hell. These businesses ruin the personality of life. These corporate nutjobs will all face God in their own heads when they die, and the ethics that drives this Universe will plunge these corrupted fowl beings for eternity in blood and fire.

See you in Hell Wolfboys, the Lion waits for it's tasteless food.

LeGaLiZeiT421Dec 19, 20161 votes

IT DOES !!! BEEN SUSPENDED 3 TIMES!!!! 14 DAYS A POP!!!!! IT CHANGED ME!!!! I'VE SPENT WAY TO MUCH MONEY TO LOSE MY ACCOUNT !! NOW I JUST /MUTE ALL AND NEVER LOOK BACK OR CARE 90% OF THE COMMUNITY HAS NOTHING POSITIVE TO SAY ANYWAY.......... I AM NOT MISSING ANYTHING ...............BUT BANS................

coreychichiDec 19, 20161 votes

My friend is toxic as all hell and he got a perma on an account he had for years and put a lot of money into. So i guess it works just takes too long maybe idk.