Boards›Player Behavior

The Instant Feedback System is failing to catch way too many trolls.

KingontheMt··2 votes·822 views

Recently got my account suspended after playing One For All. We ended up getting Illaoi and this did not sit well with somebody that wanted to play Katarina. I told this person that Katarina is among the easiest champs in the game to play. Too easy to dominate with her kit. Too easy to be fun... This person couldn't handle being told this, so they got really toxic, and started trash-talking immediately, before Champ Select was even over. We enter the game, and they continue to whine about it. They get really toxic, start throwing around insults, and eventually start feeding nonstop. Then once the game is over, we report him/her, but clearly I got reported as well. Why? Because I called them for what they were acting like? An unreasonable child that refuses to hear reason, facts, or anything anybody else has to say? Sorry. If it's true, that's not my fault. Calling someone out for toxic behaviour does not make you toxic. It does not make you the asshole.

But now I find that my account has been suspended for two weeks? Cool... But what about all of these intentional feeders and general trolls? I cannot even begin to think of the number of toxic players I've come across in League, reported, and heard NOTHING back from the Instant Feedback System. But these trolls are EVERYWHERE. Anybody in Silver or Bronze can tell you that... I can't play a single game without one. NOT ONE GAME. Yet somehow, they're allowed to continue being this way. Why? Because the way this justice system is set up, it allows for trolls to talk crap all day, feed, and just waste everyone's time—not unlike the US Justice system. (Ha.) But as long as everybody else in the room is also toxic or finds that ridiculous behaviour acceptable, the troll in question does not get reported and the system misses these people entirely... They can throw "die %%%got" around as much as they'd like and NOTHING HAPPENS. That's absurd. I won't pretend I haven't argued with someone before, but I've never been so unreasonable as to not hear someone's side, provided they can provide some rationale and proof for their point. I've certainly never decided to go throwing slurs around and start feeding intentionally. But somehow these people still get to play while I get banned? That's a joke. The Instant Feedback System is a joke.

Get on it, Riot. Your system is pretty seriously flawed. It doesn't take a die-hard League player or even 10 games to notice that... You say that the League community only finds about "5% of offenders deserving of penalty", but that's a load of crap. Just because they MISS or IGNORE all the other trolls that skate by, doesn't mean only 5% of the community deserves that penalty. If this system worked, it'd be a FAR higher number. Simply put, there's a reason why League of Legends is consistently in the top spots for "Most Toxic Online Gaming Community".

P.S.

I checked what records they have that they considered "inflammatory"... And it's ridiculous... They're literally records of me calling out intentional feeders and people actually attempting to assist the enemy team by revealing our positions via all chat. Not cursing them out or calling them names, mind you. Just calling them out for acting like children. I'm not afraid to call them children either. How else do you describe somebody that throws a fit and acts out just because they didn't get their way in a team game where everybody's got an equal say?

That's what got me banned... I also love the subtly, yet incredibly condescending "I UNDERSTAND" button it gives you when penalized. I love that they made that button so unusually large.

54 Comments

obsesse2 votes

This is another example of the system I've been complaining about today. The reason you got banned is because Riot assumes that everyone is responible for their own behavior. No matter what anyone says or does if you respond in anyway that Riot considers toxic then you may suffer consequences for your actions.

Personally, I don't mind when trolls are called out. I can understand that Riot may be trying to protect new players (i.e. a new player does something that seems intentionally trolling, like an avoidable death or gank or stealing a buff from jungler, then people say oh it's a troll report them even though they are still just learning the game). However, I've been reported for asking players if they are 'new' and the only reason I asked is so that I could adjust my own play.

The system simply does not work. I can no longer trust Riot until they release detailed information about their ban system and other statistics that the community has asked for.

KingontheMt4 votes

Thank you! It's infuriating to deal with... On top of that, "under no circumstances" can an account ban due to negative behaviour be lifted?! That's absurd! You should at least be able to make your case. But this system is written as though the people making the calls here have infallible reasoning and judgement... they CLEARLY do not.

obsesse3 votes

Well even if they are infallible and make perfect decisions, they only review your chat logs. So when you read your personal logs it may seem like you are the most toxic player ever, however these logs are then taken completely out of context and reviewed in a vacuum.

It's like punishing someone for getting into a fight and explaining to them that they aren't allowed to punch someone in the face or tackle them to the ground.... ...even if they did those things because they were attacked and were defending themselves in the first place.

And because so many people are able to harass over multiple games, it strains the rest of the player base.

Clearly the system needs reform.

Astôlfo1 votes

Context is irrelevant.

KingontheMt2 votes

That is... I don't even know where to begin with how wrong that is on so many levels. Context is everything.

Astôlfo1 votes

Incorrect. You are responsible for your behavior and your behavior alone. It doesn't matter what anyone else does. You are the one that makes the final choice in how to act/speak. If you choose badly, that is your fault and no one else's.

KingontheMt2 votes

I suggest applying that line of reasoning to a variety of scenarios in-game and in real life. You'll find that's a shockingly flimsy heuristic.

Considering this is an issue of morals, behaviour, and appropriate consequence, context must always be understood. Again, our actions to not happen in a vacuum. One is certainly the ultimate bearer of responsibility for their own actions, but as far as judging them accordingly, context is everything.

Astôlfo1 votes

Uh, I think you didn't read what I said. Whether or not it's a vacuum is irrelevant. Sure, they were toxic and made you mad. That's understandable. That's irrelevant. That does not permit or allow retaliation back. Doing so makes you just as bad as them. You are also in full control at all times on how you decide to play (normally or intentionally trolling) and how you communicate (normally or toxic). Therefore, it is your choice to retaliate or such, hence, becoming just as bad as they are. Thus, you are punished similarly. Them being toxic/trolling doesn't magically take control of your computer and make it type out retaliatory words or troll.

KingontheMt2 votes

No, I read what you said. You however are clearly missing what I replied with... While it is certainly one's own responsibility to censor their own actions and words, other people's behaviour cannot be disregarded when doling out penalties. Why? Because two wrongs are not inherently equal. Calling somebody throwing a fit and feeding/trolling a "child" is not nearly the same as "drink bleach/die/fuk yer mom %%%g0t". They do not deserve the same punishment. It's an issue of definition and value.

obsesse1 votes

Not to mention that the second wrong would literally not exist without the first one. I'm fine if my behavior is punishable. If someone feeds or harasses my teammate, I'm going to tell him off and I won't feel bad about it. If Riot punished me then so be it.

However, I want to know FOR SURE that the original toxic player is being punished. It seems extremely unfair to me if I'm the one who gets punished when I wouldn't have said anything at all without the original toxic player.

Astôlfo1 votes

Two rights do not make a wrong. And most of the time, both players are punished. You just don't see it.

obsesse2 votes

Doing so makes you just as bad as them.

No, it doesn't.

You are also in full control at all times on how you decide to play

No, you are not.

Therefore, it is your choice to retaliate or such, hence, becoming just as bad as they are. Thus, you are punished similarly

Could you reword this?

Why are we trying to isolate toxic players at all? Toxic players don't affect you in any way, right? Everyone plays the exact same in spite of a toxic player because we are all in full control of our actions, right?

Or have we acknowledged that toxic players DO have an affect on other players' gameplay and taken initiative to try and prevent/halt this type of behavior?

Astôlfo1 votes
  1. Incorrect.
  2. Incorrect.
  3. Nope. Toxic players are punished for ruining the "fun" feeling of games by either being insulting or intentionally ruining a game. It has nothing to do with whether or not others actually retaliate.
KingontheMt1 votes

You can say "incorrect" all you want, and while what you're saying fairly representative of how the League Justice System operates, that still doesn't make it right. At this point it's a moral philosophical debate and you're really not bringing anything to the table besides regurgitated conjectures. Unless you can really hash something out, you're really not making any points here.

obsesse2 votes

According to Riot it is.

In the world that the rest of us live in, it isn't irrelevant. In most situations it is arguably vital.

For instance, when I'm defending myself or another player vs a toxic individual, I'm not trolling anyone, flaming anyone, and depending on what/how I say it I'm not even breaking ToS.

That doesn't matter though, because there are automated services that dish out punishments. There are one-sided reviews of chat logs which lead to punishment in spite of context.

This is so similar to blaming police for shooting criminals. Sometimes the criminals do not pose a threat and they are killed and that's horrible, but sometimes they attempt to tackle an officer or grab his firearm and the officer is put in real danger. The context here is how we decide whether or not the cop deserves punishment. Without context, our judgments might as well be completely arbitrary.

Astôlfo1 votes

Uh. Defending yourself doesn't entail retaliating back in the same manner they provoked you. If you did that, you deserve said punishment. If you didn't do that and just ignored them or otherwise didn't retaliate in that way, you wouldn't be punished. End of story.

obsesse2 votes

How do you know how someone was provoked? And you assume that Riot has no false positives in their punishment system. Just go look right now at the people who are unjustly PERMABANNED for botting. They lost their accounts for multiple days because they were flagged, inaccurately, as bots.

And what exactly are the individuals defending themselves being punished for? The toxic player doesn't deserve to have the same in-game rights that you or I should have and that's the whole point of punishment in the first place. Yet, players are punished for being 'toxic' to actual toxic players. There are numerous examples to make this point, but I feel like I'm talking to a wall here.

Astôlfo1 votes

Uh yeah except it has like a 1/60000 chance of error as stated by a Rioter. The new batch of botting bans is from a new banning method they were testing which went awry.

Defending themselves does not entail being toxic/whatever else back to them. Being toxic to a toxic player makes you a toxic player as well. Same deal. You get the same punishment.

SmokedAlmonds2 votes

The problem here is that on 1 side the cop murdered someone and the other side he was doing his job as it was intended to be done. So the context of how that perpetrator gets killed changes everything. Also important to note that doing his job aids in protecting everyone.

It isn't that context in league doesn't matter. It is that the specific context people are talking about 99% of the time doesn't change the situation. Toxicity is unwanted by almost everyone, whether you are initiating it or not. The guy responding and feeding the source is escalating the problem and they are punished for their hand in it.

obsesse1 votes

It just seems completely unfair to punish a player who is responding to toxicity unless the original toxic player is definitely punished as well.

The whole point is trying to find the source of toxicity and target it so we can improve the community. Well, a major source of toxicity is other toxicity. How does arbitrarily banning one type of toxicity helping anyone?

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

It only seems unfair because people place a higher value on the incidents because they were personally involved. Punishments usually aren't based on 1 game, the person responding wasn't punished just for that game unless he was way out of line. It is silly to say that the other person should be treated differently just because you happened to be on your final straw when you encountered them.

It's not arbitrary. The people responding are making bad situations worse. The things they are being punished for have no meaningful chance of making anything better and the things they are responding to are already disallowed and punishable. And they perpetuate trolls by feeding them.

Jorencice1 votes

In many places counter attacking isnt allowed. And both party WILL BE charged even if the other party threw the forst punch.

obsesse2 votes

It is literally never allowed. Ever. Under any circumstance. When your chat logs are reviewed, no one else's in the games are ever looked at. And both parties may not be charged. That is a major flaw in the report system itself. Reports are weighted based on Riot's inherent 'toxicity level' meaning that someone who has received chat penalties is more likely to be punished more severely and will take less reports to get flagged. It also means that a previously punished player will have less weight in their reports, meaning that they contribute less to catching and punishing current toxic players.

Kei1431 votes

woah woah woah matey, you had some good arguments here and there, but this one, you are making some.. hmm .. misinformed assumptions.

Report weighting is not based on the "previous punished", but based on "how often you do false reports". If person A always screams "REPORT XXXX FOR UNSKILLED & FEEDING" and reports all the time, then chances are his report weight will be lower as being matched against stronger opponents is just part of match making, and proving that people can climb.

Report weight drops when a said person does alot of false reports, and the example is mentioned in the above sentence. However, if you correctly report others, you will have a decently high report weight.

The ones with a low report weight will mostly get their reports ignored by the system. Unless someone with a higher report weight reports the same person, low report weights will mainly get ignored.

What you are talking about is the punished people getting punished faster, which has nothing to do with report weight.

The report system punishes based on consistency and severity. If either of the two factors are high, it'll get you punished faster.

To put it into better context, repeat offenders will get punished faster, and rightfully so. If one has been toxic in the past 25 consecutive games, chances are they will raise up the punishment ladder and into permaban. However, if the toxicity of 25 games was spread over 100 games at a regular interval (i.e not the 25 games batched up together), it'll probably put them into a 14-day ban status instead.

That being said, the permaban is still knocking on the door for them, its just that Riot hasn't pegged them as "extremely toxic" yet.

obsesse1 votes

Thanks for the clarification. It seems like my sole point of confusion lies in previously punishment having no effect on the weight of their reports.

Is there anywhere this information is spelled out?

Other than the-boy-who-cried-wolf problem described here, it seems like toxic players can just queue with other toxic players and give each other honor every time they play together, on top of provoking players that call them out then group-reporting them.

If the system worked, why are trolls constantly saying "go ahead and report, it does nothing"

Even toxic people aren't scared of Riot anymore.

Kei1431 votes

People say "go ahead, report does nothing" cos they don't think it does anything.

More of a matter of perception, thinking it doesn't do anything. Which is where the behavioral visibility improvement comes in.

But sometimes, those reports really do nothing and it boils down to how "trolling" is defined.

I gave KingontheMt some trolling definitions closer to the top of the discussion, but to give an example, "feeding" which are frequently reported is actually a non-punishable offense.

If I am matched in lane against a person of a higher MMR, I should be loosing rightfully so. They know more and can punish my positioning mistakes, my wasted cooldowns, ranges and mobility. I may be feeding and just kept dying over and over again and don't know how to overcome this.

While it may be obvious to hug tower and play defensive to some, freezing and CSing under tower is sometimes a hard concept to grasp and requires alot of patience. Thus they can't execute it and end up dying more.

Now don't be mistaken with this (frequently reported) form of feeding with an intentional feeding jungler that runs down mid and say "free kill, open mid" cos someone by mistake took their gromp.

I dug up an old(ish) compilation of the behavioral systems FAQ. It'll answer some of your other questions that you have.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/tvviuURj-multiple-reports-and-other-misconceptions

obsesse1 votes

I've been in those situations and I've seen professional LCS players in the same situations. I know that sometimes people die a lot and that's totally understandable. I never report anyone for dying a lot, plain and simple.

Thank you so much for the link. This FAQ needs to be literally everywhere. It should be mandatory reading for every single person punished in League. We have been all about clarity for the past few years and this FAQ is an excellent source for players in need of this information.

Hopefully, the next step is Riot providing us with the various statistics of player behavior, but we may be waiting for a while.

Astôlfo1 votes

"No matter what anyone says or does" But what other people do is entirely irrelevant.

KingontheMt3 votes

I mean you can say that and the rules are certainly written that way. But while your actions and words are your own, others' actions and words are not entirely irrelevant. Our actions do not exist inside a vacuum, they're affected by one another. I'm not saying that it isn't the responsibility of the person behind the computer, but what happened prior cannot be rightly wholly disregarded.

Hell, I even made that point about taking responsibility for your own actions when a feeding troll tried to blame me for their intentional feeding. Guess what happened? Chat ban.

Astôlfo1 votes

Uh yeah, and if you get baited by said troll and respond in a similar fashion, you're just as bad. I'm not saying you're not allowed to get mad. I'm saying you're not allowed to express that back at them/to them unless you want to be punished equally like them.

If you did nothing wrong, you wouldn't get a chat ban. Hence, you deserved it.

KingontheMt2 votes

That's not true at all. There's a complete imbalance of punishment. Responding to "fuk u %%%got" with "OK, bud", is not even close to the same thing and is NOT deserving of a chat ban.

Astôlfo1 votes

I doubt you replied with just "OK, bud" and got a chatban.

KingontheMt3 votes

Well, you have only my word to go off of... I wouldn't be posting about this if that wasn't the case. You also don't believe "context" rightly matters (wowzers...), so at this point I'm not terribly concerned about you doubting me.

Astôlfo1 votes

And you seem to think other people's behavior matters when it comes to your own. So your opinion is irrelevant, as far as I see.

obsesse1 votes

I hope I never meet you in person and genuinely hope that your interactions with others is as limited as humanly possible.

Astôlfo1 votes

[deleted]

obsesse1 votes

Actually I am completely unaffected by anything anyone else does as I am in complete control of every neuron in my brain.

I'm able to be happy or upset simply by willing myself to feel that way.

Can't you?

KingontheMt1 votes

You've clearly taken the high-ground. Congrats. I think I know what kind of player you are and how you contribute to this whole debacle of a community and justice system. Thanks, pal.

SmokedAlmonds2 votes

Other people's behavior is disregarded because it doesn't change anything.

You have 1 guy who started a fire and another guy who poured gas on it. Who was most responsible for the house being burned down? I don't know and I don't particularlly care, but I do know that I don't want either of those people near my house.

Responding to toxicity with more toxicity doesn't improve anything. Now instead of 1 guy who would have most likely just made a few toxic comments now has someone to go back and forth with.

KingontheMt1 votes

I hear you, believe me. I know why they're disregarded. I follow that logic. I'm saying there's an incongruency with what is considered "toxic". But telling someone they need to take responsibility for their own in-game actions and commands being put in is not toxic. Telling somebody they cannot blame somebody else for choosing to intentionally feed is not toxic. Telling somebody that they cannot make excuses for revealing to an enemy team the locations of your hidden teammates across the map via All Chat is not toxic.

SmokedAlmonds2 votes

You will almost never know about punishments to other people. Those messages saying someone you reported got banned are not meant to pop up every time, they are just periodic reminders that reports work. Specifically trolling will almost never generate those messages because those cases are largely handled by manual review and not the instant feedback system(which is what generates the "person you reported got punished" message").

You simply won't know when other people get punished the overwhelming majority of the time, but that has no bearing on how often those people are punished.

KingontheMt2 votes

I kinda figured as much, but even still... We should be seeing FAR fewer trolls than we do. We shouldn't be seeing League at the top of every "Worst Gaming Community" list. The fact that we do is evidence enough that our justice system here is horribly broken.

Jorencice1 votes

Its one of the biggest if not biggest pvp game with a MASSIVE playerbase. I would be suprised if it didnt have the worst playerbase due to simple sheer size of it.

Not to mention its free. Theres literally NOTHING riot can do to keep people from just making new accounts.

KingontheMt1 votes

That's fair.

Kei1431 votes

Did you know, Riot is improving their behavioral visibility?

My speculations is that it'll allow the reporters see how much more influence their reports did have, and the reported will get to see that they are getting closer to punishment.

But who knows what is in store for us.

That being said, we won't see it until after the new client is up and running smoothly. Afterall, Riot did say that 'no new features until new client is updated'.

KingontheMt2 votes

Gosh, I hope so. Because the very fact that a lot of trolls will state "reports do nothing" just goes to show how little any just and fair reports are working. That statement wouldn't be gettin' tossed around as much if not for a failure to catch the trolls makin' said statement.

Kei1431 votes

That and there are alot of definition of trolls.

Some call trolls playing off-META champs / builds.

Some call feeders trolls, when in fact they are just matched with people stronger than them.

Some call people with bad map awareness trolls, infact they are just bad.

Some call certain plays trolls, such as bard doing a bad ult. Its an easy ult to mess up after all, especially with the lack of proper communication and everyone wants to do their own stuff.

Some call roaming support or proxy tops trolls (heck, I'll even throw in a "intentional feeding the enemy ADC then Morde ghosting them late game to get a 6v4" tactic in here), but they are just unconventional strategies.

Eitherway, trolls is a word that is tossed around too much. Some should be rightfully punished, some not so much.

KingontheMt1 votes

You're right. But that's been my point though. There's an issue with definition, value of how good/bad an action/word is, and the appropriateness of punishment. This is how I've gotten to where I am. Because again, it only takes a room of a few trolls to NOT report someone deserving of a slap on the wrist, but then unanimously send false reports on a frustrated, though innocent player. It's happened to me several times. The kicker is that because of the number of reports in a single game by a group of toxic children, that instance gets counted against the player that did everything right, besides making a few bad plays by mistake.

The second part of this whole joke is that these legitimate trolls will queue together to play a game and ruin it for others, only to then later piss each other off and so they go on to spread that god-awful influence around.

Kei1431 votes

In regards to troll reporting, scroll down a bit more. I have a small description on "report weights" in reply to Sepuuku.

Can't be bothered to type it again.

KingontheMt1 votes

I get ya.

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