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Instant Feedback system adjustments

A Cynical Asian··3 votes·952 views

I've gotten a two-week ban on LoL before for toxicity. It felt unfair as in 94% of my games I'm quite neutral/positive, in 5% of my games I'll occasionally go off on toxic teammates being toxic towards a teammate having a bad game, but one game, I won't lie, I tilted hard. I said some not-so-nice stuff over /all chat and I got my ban. Sure, fine, I'll take that, I only have myself to blame.

But this system that doesn't consider overall behavior creates a toxic environment where competitive players don't have an option. Granted, this account isn't Level 30 yet, so I don't mean ranked. I mean those who play to win. I know, of course, that in the end, some people just play for fun. And I usually try to be nice to people having bad games. It sucks to have people go off on you in team chat when you're having your own bad game. But a lot of people simply say, "Oh, just ignore chat, turn it off entirely, etc.". However, I believe that due to the chat box being the sole means of communication in this game, it is absolutely essential for the purposes of teamwork.

And this is where my terror comes in half the time. I don't recall ever using racist/homophobic/etc language again, in either team or /all chat since my ban, but I occasionally have gone off hard against toxic teammates. Maybe it's the culture of League. Riot can sing all they want about having strong anti-toxicity measures, but when I can have a better experience doing bad in CSGO, where both chat and voice chat are almost completely unpunished, that definitely says something about the community itself. Maybe I subconsciously know this and get more mad when I see toxic teammates. Maybe I'm partially bitter from what I saw as an overly harsh suspension for one toxic game I had in the past. Regardless, toxic teammates make me really mad.

This is where the Instant Feedback system comes in. With heavyhanded measures like suspension hammers that, I believe, for the most part, are automated, the Instant Feedback system ignores the human aspect of the game. There's no consideration whatsoever about the overall quality of behavior on a player's part, and I know this might be irrational, but sometimes I get scared when I come out of a game with a toxic teammate. Just recently, I used some profanity (including one word that may have misogynistic interpretations DEPENDING on locale; UK and US consider the word different levels of offensiveness, and I tend to use the word in the UK sense) while arguing with a toxic teammate. It started as me pointing out the teammate was a hypocrite for KSing my own kill. He then proceeded to denigrate me the entire game, calling me the "worst ADC" he's ever seen, telling the other team to report me for "being raped in the ass", etc.

If I get banned from that game, I'm going to be angry. I care about my account. I've put a lot of time into it, and I've had great games. I've also tried, for the most part, to treat others the way they deserve to be treated. At most, with extreme frustration, I've occasionally told people they're doing bad, and that'll be the end of it. No targeted harassment the entire game. Usually, if a teammate goes off on a poorly performing player, I'll tell the complaining teammate to calm down. For the most part, I've treated people cordially. I try to stay above and beyond as an exemplary member of the community, particularly when viciously criticizing teammates, taunting, and flaming are so commonplace and even accepted as just part of the experience.

I guess I've rambled a bit in this thread. But my point remains. I think the Instant Feedback System should be tuned. Perhaps filters for less obscene words, or a consideration of the average density of profane usage (i.e. someone who used one bad word or someone who cursed so much fully 5% of his chat messages contain profanity). As a passionate player of LoL, I get heated when I see toxic players. All I ask is that exemplary behavior be given consideration when handing out bans and suspensions, especially given the human aspect of the game, and how toxicity, passive-aggressiveness, blaming temamates, etc. can be just as, if not more detrimental, than a bad word or two. I could go on about how Riot's increasingly tough policy on profanity causes a chilling effect and shows the far-left, overly liberal nature of the administrators, but that's another talk for another day.

Edit: To clarify, I'm not worried about profanity per se. The Summoner's Code seems clear on that. I'm core concerned with profanity used in the rare occasions I argue with toxic players.

18 Comments

Kei1432 votes

Curses don't get you punished. Harassment against others do.

A Cynical Asian1 votes

Thanks for the reply. Serious questions, what constitutes harassment besides obviously targeting a player?

To clarify, who or what draws the line between standing up for another teammate who's being harassed by a toxic teammate versus being considered as harassing the harasser, if there is any distinction?

Also, do you think profanity included in such discourse causes the aforementioned behavior to be considered harassment?

Kei1431 votes

Counter flaming someone is harassment.

Debunking a lie isn't.

context: Garen runs towards the enemy team with Q looking for an engage, the enemy kites back and Garen pulls back after taking 60% dmg to his health while being kited Tahm: Garen don't go in, you aren't tanky

Counter Flame approach Garen: Fk you Kench, you just sit back and do nothing when they used their spells on me, go engage you useless support.

Debunking approach Garen: Actually, I have 100 more fking armor and MR than you. Plus I have warmogs to regen. So if you are in there tanking fine, then I am tankier than you.

Both have a curse word in it, but the counter flame approach will get someone punished over many games, and it's not the FK that gets someone punished.

EDIT: The system learns from the community reports (millions of reports daily) on what they consider as harassment. Essentially, we as the community are the ones controlling where the line is drawn for what is considered as harassment and what isn't.

If you want, you can post a bunch of examples here and we will tell you whether it constitutes as harassment or just regular defense.

A Cynical Asian1 votes

Thanks a lot for bothering to write a full response. No, really, I appreciate it.

Sigh, maybe I'm just not equipped with the ability to deal with the toxicity in this community. I don't believe I tend to counter-flame... except for my latest game.

Maybe I'm just cynical or overestimating what I did, but for future purposes, assuming I'm not banned again, would you say calling someone a hypocrite is flaming, especially if I did provide evidence? (i.e. I called a flamer a hypocrite after he stole a solo kill I had an obvious ability to secure and desperately needed to catch up to other players (~3/3/12 at the time as an ADC); this occurred after the flamer flamed a different teammate for kill stealing)

What about a grey zone like telling someone they're a bad person? Assuming profanity is fine in the absence of hate speech, calling someone out for awful behavior could be considered flaming by moderators reaching for a bannable offense, even if the flamer's behavior was self-evidently reprehensible.

(i.e. After being mocked by the flamer continuously, I told him his ego is huge and that he's an a**hole. Is this a personal attack per se? Sure, I used profanity, but the overall message is, 'You're a bad person.' Bad analogy, but say someone was being awfully rude and you passed them on the street. I'm fairly positive most of society wouldn't feel bad for the rude person at all if you told them they were a bad person.)

I see so much negativity go unpunished that I feel like I need to get a good grip on what exactly flaming is, so at least I can avoid even getting close to it. I'm done risking my account over my own inability to keep a cool head when pitted against the crappiest of people.

Kei1431 votes

So let's have you understand the system first.

I mentioned in another reply that there are 2 parts of the system in charge of punishments. The standard part and the zero tolerance part.

The part when you "see flame go punished" belongs to the standard part of the system, where you will get punished if you pass a certain grade within a certain percent of games. So they don't really go unpunished, but more like you don't see the punishment happening.

The crappy thing is that the system will only give you a punishment notification if the game you reported them in, is in the reform card. But the reform card only shows you 1-5 recent games as examples of unacceptable behavior. Where as someone typically has like 50+ mild/moderate toxic games in their belt before they get punished.

So how do you deal with the toxics that get you mad and you end up being toxic yourself?

  1. Realise it's just a game
  2. If in rank and you care about the climb, then look at the big picture. If you belong in silver, then you'll climb out bronze games over 50-100 games, even if your team feeds. The same can be said for other divisions. If you rely on your teammates to do good so you can win, you probably don't belong in the next division and you need to git gud instead.
  3. /mute the toxics. Chances of them suddenly coming out with a good shot calling communication is pretty low, so probably nothing much lost by muting them. But if you really feel like you need the chat, /mute them for 3-5 mins and let them cool down.
  4. Understand that people you play with aren't pros and mistakes happen all the time. Heck, even pros make mistakes, so take it easy when someone makes a mistake.

The simplest way to defend someone is keeping it neutral. Based on my own experiences, "You probably shouldn't say that" is normally good enough for them to understand what they said isn't too cool.

If they don't want to listen to you, they are loosing their accounts, not you. So no need to fight them till the end of time.

You are here to play LOL, not correct someone's life behavior / attitude.

That was alot longer than I thought it would be. But if you have more questions, feel free to ask.

A Cynical Asian1 votes

{quoted}

So let's have you understand the system first.

I mentioned in another reply that there are 2 parts of the system in charge of punishments. The standard part and the zero tolerance part.

The part when you "see flame go punished" belongs to the standard part of the system, where you will get punished if you pass a certain grade within a certain percent of games. So they don't really go unpunished, but more like you don't see the punishment happening.

The crappy thing is that the system will only give you a punishment notification if the game you reported them in, is in the reform card. But the reform card only shows you 1-5 recent games as examples of unacceptable behavior. Where as someone typically has like 50+ mild/moderate toxic games in their belt before they get punished.

So how do you deal with the toxics that get you mad and you end up being toxic yourself?

  1. Realise it's just a game
  2. If in rank and you care about the climb, then look at the big picture. If you belong in silver, then you'll climb out bronze games over 50-100 games, even if your team feeds. The same can be said for other divisions. If you rely on your teammates to do good so you can win, you probably don't belong in the next division and you need to git gud instead.
  3. /mute the toxics. Chances of them suddenly coming out with a good shot calling communication is pretty low, so probably nothing much lost by muting them. But if you really feel like you need the chat, /mute them for 3-5 mins and let them cool down.
  4. Understand that people you play with aren't pros and mistakes happen all the time. Heck, even pros make mistakes, so take it easy when someone makes a mistake.

The simplest way to defend someone is keeping it neutral. Based on my own experiences, "You probably shouldn't say that" is normally good enough for them to understand what they said isn't too cool.

If they don't want to listen to you, they are loosing their accounts, not you. So no need to fight them till the end of time.

You are here to play LOL, not correct someone's life behavior / attitude.

That was alot longer than I thought it would be. But if you have more questions, feel free to ask.

Yeah, being preachy isn't really my intention for sure. #4 isn't an issue for me. The other points seem like obvious, but often unheeded advice for me.

Regarding ranked, I'm rather humble about my ability (or rather, I consider myself garbage at the game), so saltiness isn't going to be an issue.

I won't lie, I was a little more toxic in the past. Never as bad as what I've seen, but I've done my fair share of team-blaming and /all chat toxicity in the past. Never got banned for it, so maybe I'm overestimating my degree of past toxicity. I'm probably just overcompensating since I feel bad for what I was in the past.

Really gotta stop my habit of showing my tilt in chat though (although nowadays it's just profanity directed towards no one, not toxic language like before), in whichever game it might be, CS, Overwatch, LoL...

Regardless, thanks for your responses. I really appreciate the time you've spent for the sake of the community. LoL needs more players to become like you.

Electro5222 votes

Locking up this thread, since it is so old, and the only conversation keeping it alive is not very worthwhile.

Don't worry A Cynical Asian, you've done nothing wrong. We just prefer to keep dead threads such as this.......well....dead.

If you have any questions, feel free to visit us in the Boards Moderation Discord or on the Discuss the Boards sub-board.

Ninja Assassin1 votes

The 14 day bans are a result of zero-tolerance word use-age. If you can avoid any words that have offensive, sexist, or racist connotations you should be fine. Think of the words you use with the most liberal mindset possible, in this way you can determine what is acceptable for riot's IFS and what isn't.

A Cynical Asian1 votes

Thanks for your reply.

But hold on a minute... aren't offensive words offensive because they have offensive connotations? Or do you mean, words that target other specific attributes, like say, "You damn cripple" or "f@#$ot"?

How about words that are understood differently in different locales? I'm specifically concerned with the word "c#$t". I don't use it commonly, that's not my concern. But in the UK, it doesn't have the anti-female connotation it does as in the US. If anything, I'm a bit unclear on that word since I've had friends who are much more liberal than me, and that word to them paled in comparison to words like "n@#$@#" or "f@#$ot", which seems to give me the impression that word isn't considered as offensive.

I'm not here to split hairs over individual offensive words, but when Riot has such an overarching policy regarding "offensive" words that contrasts with my laissez-faire attitude towards very sparse offensive talk--but not behavior IRL or an overall consistent pattern of being offensive--I feel like it'd be helpful to know on an individual basis which words are dangerous.

Ninja Assassin1 votes

Its an automated system so context is irrelevant, under this system a word is either acceptable or not, thus the term zero-tolerance. That's why its best to use the most liberal sense of the word.

For example: when I was talking to support about my ban one of the chat logs they used against me was a game in which I was "correctly reported". This game had one line in the entire log:

  • "soraka so gay" Was I being homophobic? No, but the system flags the word as such. Thus, its just better to avoid words that can be construed as offensive no matter how much of a stretch it is. That way you can reduce the amount of ammo the support staff has to prevent you from appealing a ban.

Don't get me wrong though. I'm here contributing to this thread, because I agree with you. The ban system needs to be tweaked quite a bit, but until that happens its best to reduce the amount of collateral damage our accounts will suffer in exchange for the development and growth of their instant feedback system. So, my advice is try to only use words that have a singular context and never in a tone that may implicate arguing.

A Cynical Asian1 votes

Ouch, that sounds much dumber than my own ban. That's... beyond ridiculous.

Thanks for your response though, it gives me a better idea of, well, how broken the system is in its current state.

Kei1431 votes

What he mentioned is a part of the system, which is the "Zero Tolerance system".

Riot's idea are those words shouldn't be said regardless of context, so people will be punished in an escalated manner upon getting reported. Of course, if it was used not in a directed insulting manner, then you get one pardon, where player support can reverse the punishment and count that as a learning experiement.

The other part of the system is one that reads the chat logs and assigns a grade to them upon toxicity found. Once you hit a certain grade over a certain percent of games, you'll get punished. These punishments normally go through the standard punishment ladder instead of immediate escalated punishments.

Butt Ρlug1 votes

in 5% of my games I'll occasionally go off on toxic teammates being toxic towards a teammate having a bad game

Overall behavior actually matters, that's why there are punishment tiers and you gain regain honor and so on. But remember,** if you end up in game with a toxic dude, don't lower yourself to his level !**

I get heated too, everyone knows that feeling, but i never insult toxic people, that would be lowering me to their level. Instead i make fun of it, i call them sweetie and cute things like that :)

Work on your self-control it's not that hard the vast majority of players achieve it :)

A Cynical Asian1 votes

{quoted}

Overall behavior actually matters, that's why there are punishment tiers and you gain regain honor and so on. But remember,** if you end up in game with a toxic dude, don't lower yourself to his level !**

I get heated too, everyone knows that feeling, but i never insult toxic people, that would be lowering me to their level. Instead i make fun of it, i call them sweetie and cute things like that :)

Work on your self-control it's not that hard the vast majority of players achieve it :)

Oof, I'd honestly probably get more tilted if you called me that. To some people it sounds condescending lol. Not an issue since I don't instigate though.

Regardless, that's a motto I gotta force myself to live by. Lowering myself to even near their level isn't good. Thanks for the response man.

Shigeto1 votes

If you go off on people "sometimes" (which already sounds suspicious), you can't really complain. For example, if someone is nice most of the time, and then "occasionally" says things like "fuck you you're trash/garbage uninstall", he can't really complain if he gets punished. If you're being toxic some games you're still being toxic, nothing will change that. You want to be safe? Just don't say anything in chat, if it's rude. There's no point using profanity anyway, especially if you're using it to insult someone. It honestly seems like you're using riots policies as an excuse for your toxicity. What do you even mean "overall behavior creates a toxic environment where competitive players don't have an option"? what option? to shut up, mute and report at the end of the game where you won't receive any punishment? There are plenty of competitive players dedicated to this game that don't flame or is not toxic. (pro players, streamers) You're being deulsional [sg-lux-2]

A Cynical Asian1 votes

{quoted}

If you go off on people "sometimes" (which already sounds suspicious), you can't really complain. For example, if someone is nice most of the time, and then "occasionally" says things like "fuck you you're trash/garbage uninstall", he can't really complain if he gets punished. If you're being toxic some games you're still being toxic, nothing will change that. You want to be safe? Just don't say anything in chat, if it's rude. There's no point using profanity anyway, especially if you're using it to insult someone. It honestly seems like you're using riots policies as an excuse for your toxicity. What do you even mean "overall behavior creates a toxic environment where competitive players don't have an option"? what option? to shut up, mute and report at the end of the game where you won't receive any punishment? There are plenty of competitive players dedicated to this game that don't flame or is not toxic. (pro players, streamers) You're being deulsional [sg-lux-2]

I have little patience for people who can't read and then have the audacity to call me delusional.

I said I only go off on toxic teammates, as in those who are being unnecessarily toxic, especially to other players. I'm doing bad and I'm getting toxicity? I'll protest in a rather civil way but deal with it. I'm doing bad. It happens. People get frustrated. I only have myself to blame for my bad performance.

But don't you dare call me delusional if you don't have the courtesy to even put in effort to read the thread completely. My entire point is that the Instant Feedback system is heavyhanded and completely ignores context. My "going off" on people, if you had bothered to read through the thread, is me arguing with people who are being abusive towards other players. The furthest I'll ever go in terms of toxicity, if ever, is telling a teammate they're bad or that they're a hypocrite, especially if that teammate has started to blame other teammates for their poor performance--I've never berated someone simply due to poor performance beyond stating perhaps once the entire game that they've played poorly along the lines of "you fed the udyr" or "you did kinda bad ngl". Considering the lack of targeted harassment and the mere statement of a relatively objective observation, you have no grounds to call me delusional or toxic, especially given my efforts to be as friendly as possible post-ban.

In fact, I'll go further to state that people like you are just as bad in the community as toxic players. Your condescending demeanor is toxic in and of itself. League of Legends has one of the most self-unaware communities I've ever seen. It's a constant cycle of toxicity and then condescending, toxic behavior towards anyone who tries to bring, fair, rational discussion to the table.

Shigeto2 votes

If you go off on toxic team mates, no matter what you are liable for punishment. Riot's policy is mute, don't respond and report at the end of the game. If you don't it's your choice but you can get punished. I know people get frustrated, I'm a person myself. You are being delusional, and your response shows it clearly. If you believe the report system takes shit out of context, and punishments are unjust, then ask the fucking support team instead. They are also people so they won't take it out of context and listen to your whiny baby complaining. :) Your behavior shows how toxic you are, and delusional. You believe ur the hero, ur the savior of this "toxic" community while you do nothing but complain. [zombie-brand-mindblown] [zombie-brand-clap] [zombie-brand-facepalm] [slayer-jinx-unamused] [zombie-nunu-bummed] [katarina-love]

A Cynical Asian1 votes

I figured this thread was finally dead, but I suppose you bothered to revive it.

You're intellectually lazy, to be quite honest.

It's fine to echo Riot's opinion, but you're using it as a hammer to shut down any sort of open debate.

If you believe the report system takes shit out of context, and punishments are unjust, then ask the fucking support team instead.

You do realize that's the point of this forum, right? To offer a space for discussion regarding Player Behavior?...

You are being delusional

You're stuck in your echo chamber, and you're unable to understand a simple concept like the purpose of this forum. I'm well within my rights to express an opinion. Also, kindly explain to me what exactly I'm deluded about. My only argument is that Riot consider the human aspect of the game when handing out instabans (which I believe is the case, regardless, but a fact that I was unaware of at the time) and to ask for greater leniency.

If anything, you no longer have any grounds to call me delusional. My own attitudes to toxicity have hardened greatly in these last 3 months. I still feel a bit of sympathy, but I believe retaliation in general is just foolish. Of course, don't fool yourself into believing you won the argument. Your arguments were hollow and derivative of every other toxic person on this subboard; even if your points were up to snuff, the way you addressed me ensured that I would never take you seriously.

They are also people so they won't take it out of context and listen to your whiny baby complaining. :) Your behavior shows how toxic you are, and delusional. You believe ur the hero, ur the savior of this "toxic" community while you do nothing but complain.

Jeez, you're sure passionate about your ad hominem. I'd prefer that the forums adhere to, if anything, a higher standard than the Summoner's Code, but you've gone far below that. Way to ignore the substance of my argument, characterize me as a whiny shmuck, and try to paint me as someone I've never considered myself to be. A "hero"? You must be in a bad state of mind.

No, I'll put it bluntly. You're toxic. You might think you're not. You think you're a paradigm of the Summoner's Code, here to uphold it in what you see as a shitty thread. But you've resorted to low, low blows. You're awful.

Ah, and I figured I'd take the time to edit to point out that your use of emojis is highly counterproductive. No one takes you seriously. You're like the one person that tries to make a good politlcal point on Twitter and then ruins it by adding a sassy emoji or something.

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