Boards›Player Behavior

The Problem is not the Mute Option.

Khazaad··4 votes·541 views

Hey so i had a thought the other day (surprising i know): muting doesn't really help, sure you don't have to listen to the ramblings or angry texts of a moody teenager but they are already tilted, so they are already underperforming due to the fact that they spend time and focus on blaming other people and more importantly typing , they get angry and start typing which means their hands and attention is not on the screen/game anymore this causes them to keep making mistakes, getting caught and basically not helping the team. I don't care what my teammates say, i don't usually mute players because i believe that at some random point the can actually make a wise decision and i want to be able to recognize it, and i can mentally block them out, so muting doesn't do anything for me, if you are not able to do this then i fear that you also have some inner issues that needs to be addressed, but i digress. I want the community and maybe Riot to come up with a solution to fix this, it's not "flaming" the problem, it's what happens in the mind of the flamer, it is a tricky subject because we can't really alter how someone will react to a certain stimuli, but i bet riot could hire a sociologist or psychologist or both to analyze the best course of action,** i don't care if someone is flaming i want them focused on the game**, they can trash talk to their hearts content but i want them at least trying to win. Perhaps, if one person from the team mutes you, you immediately get restricted to 5 messages every 2 minutes for the duration of the game? and if 2 mute you then you lose all your chat privilege, and maybe 3 also your pings? the goal would be to take away the source of distraction, no matter how angry someone get's if they can't express it the only thing left to do is either play or feed, in which case the system and the reports would do their job. I do see a problem with premades and just social trolling, i have no problem picturing 2 or more 17 y/o playing league and muting their teammates because they find it funny or it is a "meme" or whatever they say or do nowadays. Let me know what you think about the "Mind/Attitude of the Flamer", if you have any ideas please share them so we can come up with a formal suggestion for riot.

Take care people, enjoy the game and good luck in the ladder.

PS: maybe there could also be a "punishment" for a failed attempt to surrender? such as , if you start a voting and it fails 4 to 1 then you can't start a vote again for the next 10-15 minutes? because another issues is the fact that some people are not mentally resistant enough to withstand a bad early/mid game making them lose in their minds before the game is set, or they believe they are being rational and "saving time" while in reality the game can still be turned, but they stop trying and keep trying to surrender, and in the end their focus and attention gets diverted to the surrender and not trying to overcome a tough game.

PSS: perhaps when the system recognizes a "flamer" his deaths give a little bit less of gold or something? (this might not be doable and i understand any criticism)

21 Comments

YerroFever3 votes

What it sounds like is you want Riot to make sure that people focus on the game.

Unfortunately, that's not possible. Riot can't force people to stay on task. That's your job. You as their teammate need to get them to refocus.

Additionally, a punishment for failing to surrender is actually a bad idea. Many times I've had surrender votes go up and then we win because the enemy got cocky and threw a team fight that let us win. So should four of us have been punished because one person gave up and still ended with a win? No, that is absurd. Even if it were 3 to 2, it would be absurd. Even if it ended in a loss, everyone keeps playing to win, why should you punish the fighting spirit?

If you haven't read any of the red posts regarding chat restrictions of toxic and frustrated players, you'll know that your suggestion of immediate in game chat restrictions are a bad idea. People get even more frustrated with restricted chat and just up the ante and make their chat more toxic to compensate for not being able to chat as much. If they're funneling that much anger into a few chats, that's counterproductive and actually has the complete opposite effect you want it to have. You get more toxicity and you encourage frustration to be vented otherwise in ping spams, int feeding, leaving a lane open, etc... or throwing a /ff up.

In your scenario, what you have done is created a toxic beast of a teammate that can punish you because you forced them into a toxic system. How can you be punished? You said punish people for not surrendering. You get that under performing person so frustrated that they would /ff and coerce you into surrendering a game that can be saved but you surrender anyway because you fear punishment from the system for not surrendering.

Cooperation and teamwork requires that you adapt to the situation and learn how to be a problem solver. Sometimes you can't solve every problem but you can't expect Riot to go out and solve all of your problems for you. You have to try to help shape the community and stop expecting someone to fix all of your problems for you.

The tools Riot gives you are meant as shields so that you can limit your exposure to that toxic behavior.

You are the only one in game who can actually diffuse a situation and fix a team dynamic problem.

Khazaad1 votes

oh apologies i'm afraid that i didn't explain that idea correctly, the idea was that if someone initiates a vote, and loses in a 4v1, meaning that his teammates want to keep trying, then the person who initiated the voting, i.e: the "tilted/quitter" wouldn't be able to start another votation for a certain period of time, the rest of team however are free to start surrender votes whenever they please according to the actual rules, but when the voting clearly suggests that surrender is not a team shared option, then he who wanted to quit will be forced to keep playing until one of the other teammates starts the voting or they actually lose.

My whole idea was to limit the "tilted/flamer/quitter" privileges during a game in order to force them to either keep playing, afk, or feed. Now it is my understanding that riot actually punishes the last 2 actions therefore leaving the "angry player" unable to communicate or force a surrender, this will either break them, or force them to rethink their ways, and it is my opinion that if one repeatedly gets punished and despite their hopelessness their team actually manages to pull through every now and then, one will eventually realize their mistake and become a more friendly or at least passive type of player, which will eventually make the community a more enjoyable one.

I could understand arguments against isolation but for now that is my "thesis" if you will.

Regards.

YerroFever2 votes

{quoted}

oh apologies i'm afraid that i didn't explain that idea correctly, the idea was that if someone initiates a vote, and loses in a 4v1, meaning that his teammates want to keep trying, then the person who initiated the voting, i.e: the "tilted/quitter" wouldn't be able to start another votation for a certain period of time, the rest of team however are free to start surrender votes whenever they please according to the actual rules, but when the voting clearly suggests that surrender is not a team shared option, then he who wanted to quit will be forced to keep playing until one of the other teammates starts the voting or they actually lose.

My whole idea was to limit the "tilted/flamer/quitter" privileges during a game in order to force them to either keep playing, afk, or feed. Now it is my understanding that riot actually punishes the last 2 actions therefore leaving the "angry player" unable to communicate or force a surrender, this will either break them, or force them to rethink their ways, and it is my opinion that if one repeatedly gets punished and despite their hopelessness their team actually manages to pull through every now and then, one will eventually realize their mistake and become a more friendly or at least passive type of player, which will eventually make the community a more enjoyable one.

I could understand arguments against isolation but for now that is my "thesis" if you will.

Regards.

For the time restriction on surrenders, I don't see how different that is from the current system. If a surrender vote fails, no one on your team can initiate it within 3 minutes. I think this is actually better because if someone else could still initiate, then it could be abused by throwing more fights to try and coerce more people into surrendering after each failure faster and faster. This could create a more toxic environment because you're giving people something they can abuse to further frustrate their teammates, which could in turn create a larger breeding ground for inters and trolls.

The second option has already been tried and Riot Tantram has spoken about it on the forums and he says it does not work and actually makes things worse.

I understand where you're coming from and why you think it could work but I can see equal, if not more likely, situations where it won't work. There are three kinds of people, the calm, on the fence, and rager. I think your situation actually punishes people on the fence and ragers while the current system punishes ragers only.

Rather than keep the opportunity open to salvage a teammate on the fence, you put them on the defensive. Toxicity or reform. However, you're putting them there without giving them a cool down period. That immediate feedback can actually be a push into rager.

If they've gone toe deep into rager, they could burn their remaining chats griping about being chat restricted, and if more people mute, then it further restricts them and another push into rager. If they've already gotten knee deep and they can't respond to you, they may feel more frustration and just go down toxicity lane because you've initiated the in game chat restriction and they've burned through their limited messages because they expressed as much toxicity as they could in their limited chats and rather than look towards themselves, they've focused on lashing out on their teammates who further aggravated the situation.

The current system allows the team to try and diffuse the situation and prevent people from getting that push. Some people may not want to hear it but they may not want to nudge people on the fence. If Player 5 is spewing out racist and homophobic slurs to player 4, and player 3 doesn't want to hear it, they mute player 5. Immediate chat restriction. Fuels more toxicity. Player 5 has no idea who muted them but infers player 4 did it. Ups the ante and digs deeper. Player 4 mutes. Player 5 is further chat restricted and gets even angrier. Player 3 has unintentionally made the situation worse and you're unintentionally stripping protection away from player 3 because you are putting more negative consequences on a protective measure.

Khazaad1 votes

yeah, i see your point now. you might be right, i guess the reason i wanted to push the people on the fence and the rager is because i think, mistakenly or not, that if you get punished and banned in a certain game you either change your attitude or you quit the game, this will in the long run improve the community, but i also see the dangers of this kind of mentality, not too far from fascism.

I think i agree with you that games will, for a while, become a cesspool of toxicity, but i also want this community to improve, now, it is my understanding that rewards and positive reinforcement have a bigger impact in us humans than punishment, and it is easier to learn and change if there is a reward, perhaps there is a way to adjust League's system and instead of being a punitive one it changes into a more rewarding one, just getting a "banner" for your commendations hardly seems worth the effort to grow and learn...

YerroFever1 votes

{quoted}

yeah, i see your point now. you might be right, i guess the reason i wanted to push the people on the fence and the rager is because i think, mistakenly or not, that if you get punished and banned in a certain game you either change your attitude or you quit the game, this will in the long run improve the community, but i also see the dangers of this kind of mentality, not too far from fascism.

I think i agree with you that games will, for a while, become a cesspool of toxicity, but i also want this community to improve, now, it is my understanding that rewards and positive reinforcement have a bigger impact in us humans than punishment, and it is easier to learn and change if there is a reward, perhaps there is a way to adjust League's system and instead of being a punitive one it changes into a more rewarding one, just getting a "banner" for your commendations hardly seems worth the effort to grow and learn...

People have tried suggesting honor reworks but with the way the loot chests/keys work, I think they've stopped caring about it.

Kei1433 votes

when flamers realise their typing does nothing, they'll stop typing.

Khazaad1 votes

i honestly think that "flamers" are in fact psychologically damaged individuals, not "crazy crazy" but rationality and insight don't seem to be their strong suit, as human beings we have the capacity to read into our own actions and judge them, make mistakes, learn, grow and such. But when a player just types racial slurs and blames the team they are doing everything in their power to place the fault in someone else, this kind of individual without help( i suspect most of the flamers to be the young part of the community, or very child-like adults) will not change his mindset because he can not see it, he can't realize what is wrong, they live in a state of denial. Accepting that as a flamer you are in fact wrong will mean that you are able to see yourself clearly and without lies, and this is very difficult to do without professional help.

So when you say that "flamers will realize that their typing does nothing they'll stop typing" it's a bit naive in the sense that they can't come to that realization, they are too fragile and their ego's will not tolerate it.

regards.

scazzman2 votes

{quoted}

i honestly think that "flamers" are in fact psychologically damaged individuals, not "crazy crazy" but rationality and insight don't seem to be their strong suit, as human beings we have the capacity to read into our own actions and judge them, make mistakes, learn, grow and such. But when a player just types racial slurs and blames the team they are doing everything in their power to place the fault in someone else, this kind of individual without help( i suspect most of the flamers to be the young part of the community, or very child-like adults) will not change his mindset because he can not see it, he can't realize what is wrong, they live in a state of denial. Accepting that as a flamer you are in fact wrong will mean that you are able to see yourself clearly and without lies, and this is very difficult to do without professional help.

So when you say that "flamers will realize that their typing does nothing they'll stop typing" it's a bit naive in the sense that they can't come to that realization, they are too fragile and their ego's will not tolerate it.

regards.

actually. most "flamers" simply flame out of frustration, or in an "usually failed" attempt to annoy someone into following instructions. not because theyre crazy

SecondAirbane2 votes

in the middle where u said where people mute to restrict you from chat or pinging can be EASILY abused

so say a 4man or a 3man goes into a game and mutes the other 2 or 1 person(s) the 1 or 2 would get frustrated and tilted off the face of the earth

bad idea imo

Khazaad1 votes

yeah you are right, it was just an idea. maybe the amount of 4man and 3man is not enough to be impactful in the community as a whole? i dont know...

I do think that with every new system people try to abuse and play with it but once the novelty fades it would become what it was supposed to do, wishful thinking i guess...

Baka Red2 votes

I don't claim to be a psychologist or anything, but I believe that to untilt someone as a player, you have to do it in a line or couple at most. The tone of the lines must be in general positive, or neutral at worst. Negative lines will make most people just tilt harder. I haven't had to deal with the problem too many times, but I think that lines like "Do you think typing will help us win the match?" or "Do you think flaming/blaming will win us the match?" or "Thank you for your kind words. Now please less talk, more action! We have game to win!" Last one gets most points from me, even though it has a bit... twisted.. undertones in it. The other two just try to make him realize that he is tilted and untilt him that way.

Of course, lines like those might also backfire causing even more tilt, but since he is in tilt already, what do you have to lose? Also, it is usually counterproductive to use more than two or three lines to attempt to calm down the person on tilt. The person attempting the 'calm down maneuver' will instead start wasting time typing too and at worst fall into flaming/blaming himself too. So if couple of lines don't work, it might be time to mute the tilted person.

Btw: I wonder why Riot allows "/mute all" to exist in the first place. Mute should be used at the person causing trouble, not at every person at once. If someone knows the rationale behind it, please let me know. Thanks.

Khazaad1 votes

you make a very interesting point, the /mute all conceptually speaking doesn't make much sense, that is why i thought making "adjustments" on-the-fly might have a more positive outcome or at least isolate the issues.

scazzman2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baka Red,realm=EUNE,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=OHVi0iGg,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-05-25T12:53:18.121+0000)

I don't claim to be a psychologist or anything, but I believe that to untilt someone as a player, you have to do it in a line or couple at most. The tone of the lines must be in general positive, or neutral at worst. Negative lines will make most people just tilt harder. I haven't had to deal with the problem too many times, but I think that lines like "Do you think typing will help us win the match?" or "Do you think flaming/blaming will win us the match?" or "Thank you for your kind words. Now please less talk, more action! We have game to win!" Last one gets most points from me, even though it has a bit... twisted.. undertones in it. The other two just try to make him realize that he is tilted and untilt him that way.

Of course, lines like those might also backfire causing even more tilt, but since he is in tilt already, what do you have to lose? Also, it is usually counterproductive to use more than two or three lines to attempt to calm down the person on tilt. The person attempting the 'calm down maneuver' will instead start wasting time typing too and at worst fall into flaming/blaming himself too. So if couple of lines don't work, it might be time to mute the tilted person.

Btw: I wonder why Riot allows "/mute all" to exist in the first place. Mute should be used at the person causing trouble, not at every person at once. If someone knows the rationale behind it, please let me know. Thanks.

Some people literally cannot handle any kind of provocation in chat. So to prevent themselves from reacting and getting themselves banned they preemptively /mute all

Baka Red1 votes

Thank you for the explanation.

To me the kind of people you describe sound weird, but there are all kinds of people out there, so they exist - and people who believe they are that kind of people exist too and do the mute all for that reason.

Now that I think of it, I should have realized the reason, since I am in part that kind of person (I don't dare to have all chat open, since I am afraid the enemy team will attempt to use it to tilt me.) The occasional team 'mates' who have attempted to do the same have gotten themselves muted (and I guess some will get ping muted in future now that we have option for that - I just haven't needed it yet.)

Colgate Gator2 votes

Well, as far as I know, Riot isn't pro-indoctrination, so brainwashing the toxic brats isn't an option.

Khazaad1 votes

i just realized this might not be the correct Board, if anyone has a better idea where it could go i would appreciate it :)

èGirl Nami2 votes

Nah, This is the board

Khazaad1 votes

thank you!

RookPusher1 votes

You're missing some important things here. If a player can just flame into the void, and you aren't affected by it, and the game goes in the right direction then you've done more for them than you can imagine.

The problem isn't flamming. I actually prefer the angry players. The biggest concerns I have is the player that thinks they're right and aren't, or the players who have no concept of what's going on.

scazzman1 votes

chat restricting players simply for being muted is a HORRIBLE idea. and if i have to explain why, you shouldnt be playing league in the first place

La Belle Sauvage1 votes

"...riot could hire a sociologist or psychologist or both to analyze the best course of action, i don't care if someone is flaming i want them focused on the game..."

How could either ologist make a concrete suggestion without​ talking to the parties involved. Additionally, they couldn't analyze enough players to base a suggestion on. And the control study would present difficulty as well. Not to mention the money to pay the ologist and the funds to support the study.

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