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Perma ban's and the law

DrtyTrolls··5 votes·6,893 views

So I have been thinking about this for a while since it seem's the only players who get perma banned are toxic players and almost never the troll's who caused them to be toxic in the first place.

Riot has all users "accept" user agreement that includes a statement about them owning all content , aka skins, champs, anything you spend real money on. They are just allowing you to pay money to use them. Along with the a clause that says they can take it for whatever reason (aka BAN YOU). Now my question is, if you are a kid under the age of 18 you cannot make ANY legal binding contract with anyone your parents have to for you, so what if , lets say a 14 year old used his parents credit card spending 100's if not a couple thousand dollars on their account and then was permanently banned? The parents are technically the ones the money came from and NEVER signed the agreement. Furthermore, the kid was not old enough to sign any sort of contract accepting terms of use from Riot. Under the law would Riot have to refund the money used? Or could they face a lawsuit?

Remember this is just a hypothetical situation that I was thinking about the other day.

EDIT: In this example the parent knowingly let child use card or money or whatever have you. The question is the parent never accepted terms of use only the child which cannot be help accountable since they are under the legal age to do so.

34 Comments

Vekkna5 votes

I work in insurance law, not contract law or IP law, so I'm certainly not an expert. But I can make some useful points.

There is some disagreement as to whether an EULA constitutes a contract (like your cell phone service contract) or is purely a license (like buying retail software with a license for one computer). The majority of any EULA is just terms of use for the license. Disputes tend to arise when sections of an EULA take on contract-like qualities but claim to be terms of use.

For instance, let's say a 13 year old goes to Office Depot and buys a box copy of Adobe Photoshop. He goes home and installs the software, clicking through all of the license agreement prompts. That is not a contract, and his status as a minor does not mean he cannot be held liable for violating the license agreement. In other words, he can't upload Photoshop to pirate bay and then claim the terms did not apply to him because he is a minor. On installation, the kid agreed not to pirate the software, but IP theft is a law that is enforceable whether he agreed to the terms or not.

On the other hand, a contract is an agreement to do a thing not required by law. Your cell phone is a contract because you are agreeing to pay in the future, so a contract is necessary for that agreement to be enforced. If you look at MMO subscription packages, they are a monthly transaction with no commitment to pay in the future. Every year-long subscription is paid in full up front so it is considered a transaction, not a contractual obligation.

EULAs get hairy when they contain things like binding arbitration and hold-harmless clauses. Those sorts of clauses are almost never enforceable outside of contract law, so there is an argument to be made that an EULA is a contract. But then there are questions of severability and governing law to further muddy the waters.

The answer to your question is that buying things in League of Legends is not a contract. Buying things in the cash shop is essentially like my first example of the kid going to the store and buying a box of software. It is a 1-time transaction for a license to use certain content within the game service. The service itself is separate from content licensing, so I don't believe one has anything to do with the other.

TL;DR: If the parent authorized the transactions, there's no problem with your scenario and Riot does not owe anyone any money. If the purchases were unauthorized, the credit card company would probably try to negotiate with Riot.

LF Annie1 votes

im pretty sure if its unauthorized parents can freeze payment and the account will be banned for fraudulent activities. pretty sure i seen someone complaing about being banned a while back about charges not being properly charged.

Ghost2811 votes

only the supreme court can rule this. This is controversial it can be taken to higher supreme court.

EvilDustMan4 votes

http://mostlyaveragejoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/judge-dredd-stallone1-300x174.jpg

THE LAW

The Poetic Zed1 votes

{quoted}

http://mostlyaveragejoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/judge-dredd-stallone1-300x174.jpg

THE LAW

You know you're getting old when..

RengClaw3 votes

i called a riven main "a NOOB who should stop playing the game" and got permabanned on that acc

DrtyTrolls3 votes

I got a 2 week ban for saying "i will report you scrub". Course i was already on a 10 match chat restriction for calling a kid a "moron" during a game. facepalm League = G rated content or BAN! lol

Horse Grenades5 votes

{quoted}

i called a riven main "a NOOB who should stop playing the game" and got permabanned on that acc

Post official Chat logs showing that was all you said pls and I will reimburse you for the skins on the acct

airwave181 votes

I got banned for the below chat transcripts and Riot is refusing to reimburse the account:

"[7:22] airwave18 (Draven): WHAT [7:24] airwave18 (Draven): ARE U DOING [7:29] airwave18 (Draven): ARE UDRUNK HIGH >? [7:29] airwave18 (Draven): WHAT [7:31] airwave18 (Draven): ARE U DOIUNG [8:22] airwave18 (Draven): can i go afk or to int [8:25] airwave18 (Draven): i cant stand this tresh [8:40] airwave18 (Draven): U ARE BAD [8:42] airwave18 (Draven): U STAY AND DO NOTHING [31:08] airwave18 (Draven): why u ping [31:11] airwave18 (Draven): dont u see ekko is trolling [31:17] airwave18 (Draven): look at his build :)O [31:22] airwave18 (Draven): oh u guys are so funny [31:27] airwave18 (Draven): hope i dont see any of u again [31:40] airwave18 (Draven): especialy thresh"

I have the entire file as well, but I asked them to pinpoint what they thought was "extremely inflammatory" and this is what they replied. I also mentioned that I was not logged in for the past 2 months, but they refused to provide any information about the activity on the account.

How do you anticipate this could stand in court?

fractalfantasies2 votes

Whilst I do not excuse trolling/toxic behaviour, I feel the law should be clarified so as to protects the consumer.

VyleExyle2 votes

Since you say it's hypothetical curiosity, I assume you wouldn't mind a rather technical response.

  1. The EULA is technically not a contract (in the most basic definition of 'contract') it is a customer's acknowledgement of a disclaimer. In other words it protects the service provider from litigation by making every person acknowledge the provider's terms of use they take away the excuse "I didn't see your terms because they were hidden" argument.

  2. Child using a parent's credit card without authorization will have no bearing on a ban. If the child uses the card without parent's approval, the responsibility is on the parent to address it in a reasonable amount of time. So if the kids uses the card to buy skins, and a month or two later parent sees it on the bill, RIOT may (at their discretion) refund the purchase of it was a direct CC purchase. I'm also assuming RIOT will van the account after that since they are using money they aren't authorized to.

Note, if the child is making the purchases over time, and gets banned a year later and the parent then makes that claim, it is the discretion of RIOT to issue a refund, but under those circumstances much less likely.

Disclaimer: I'm not a RIOT employee, I hold a CJ degree with a pre law focus and 8 years customer service experience. So this is just the answers to the technicality and how companies approach these scenarios

DrtyTrolls1 votes

No, even in my example the parent KNOWINGLY gives credit card to child to use. But someone under the age of 18 cannot be held responsible for any "terms of service" or "contract" the are legally not "competent" enough to do so. My example has to do with the fact that the parent did not accept the terms of use only the child which CANNOT do so (per the law).

Wolfess1 votes

{quoted}

No, even in my example the parent KNOWINGLY gives credit card to child to use. But someone under the age of 18 cannot be held responsible for any "terms of service" or "contract" the are legally not "competent" enough to do so. My example has to do with the fact that the parent did not accept the terms of use only the child which CANNOT do so (per the law).

Riot can still choose to ban your account for whatever reason, so in a sense, none of this matters because Riot has the say in it, and not the player. It doesn't matter if the kid can or cannot be held responsible due to legal competency, it's not the kid's account it's Riot's account that they're letting the kid use/borrow. So if Riot decides to suddenly take back their account, too bad so sad for the kid. Legally, that means that Riot is taking their property back, which is rightfully theirs. Riot might have not made money from that person, but then again the time that person spent playing the game is almost meaningless now that they don't have access to that account. Are they welcome to try a new account again? Sure, but lvling up once more and possibly going through the ranked process again and getting all the same champions again is going to be a rough ride.

VyleExyle1 votes

OK I reread your example and still don't see where you explicitly said it was with parents permission, it seemed you left that point open and I made the assumption, so I'm sorry.

If the parent allowed their child to use the card then they gave express consent and assumed responsibility for any charges the kid made, so that wouldn't earn the parent a refund.

On to your point, like I said, it's still not a contract, it's an acknowledgement that you read the terms. In order to use their service you need to play by their rules. Having a child take on an action does not invalidate the rights of the other party (in this case RIOT).

so unfortunately, your argument about a child not being competent is irrelevant since it's not a contract. A context requires an exchange of things of value (whether monetary or otherwise perceived ie. Services) from both parties. In this case, there is no exchange, RIOT offers their game and services, and the player is required to provide nothing in return.

Skins are separate. Skins are a purchase but the exchange is cosmetic content for your money. If you lose account access because of violation of account terms, that is an unrelated issue and you are entitled to no guaranteed refund.

Wolfess1 votes

{quoted}

Riot has all users "accept" user agreement that includes a statement about them owning all content , aka skins, champs, anything you spend real money on. They are just allowing you to pay money to use them. Along with the a clause that says they can take it for whatever reason (aka BAN YOU). Now my question is, if you are a kid under the age of 18 you cannot make ANY legal binding contract with anyone your parents have to for you, so what if , lets say a 14 year old used his parents credit card spending 100's if not a couple thousand dollars on their account and then was permanently banned? The parents are technically the ones the money came from and NEVER signed the agreement. Furthermore, the kid was not old enough to sign any sort of contract accepting terms of use from Riot. Under the law would Riot have to refund the money used? Or could they face a lawsuit?

if a 14 year old goes to the store and buys something, they're not except from the store's policies on refund and returns. If something like the situation you described happened and the kid used their parent's money and the parent wanted the money back, they'd have to go to their bank and try to get a chargeback because their kid used their card without permission, and even then the bank can also decide to say yes or no. if they say yes and get a refund from riot then riot will also remove all things that were purchased with that money, including RP and anything bought with said RP.

if it happens to be something that could possibly not be refunded, like perhaps ip/exp boosts etc, then riot will lock your account until you pay for the used services.

riot is in no way responsible for any kids taking money from their parents, however if need be then you can still try to contact them through a support ticket and talking with someone about such things.

DrtyTrolls1 votes

The difference between making a store purchase and League though is that the store isn't going to come to your house and take the stuff you purchased. Also, the parent's knowingly gave them the money to use. My example has to do with the legality of the user contract. No person under the age of 18 can make a contract or be held up to it. That is why many CD companies 12-15 years ago went bankrupt when kids under 18 made orders online using a birth date that made them look 18. The company sent the CD's expecting payment but never received any so they tried to submit it to collection but could never get anymore because the kids doing this were under 18 which voided the contract they had made with the company saying they would pay shipping fee, etc etc. I remember when i was in the 8th grade almost everyone in my class did this and not one person ended up paying for them.

LF Annie1 votes

the problem is riot doesnt sell you product, but access to their servers.

qetzel1 votes

[deleted]

DrtyTrolls1 votes

The difference between making a store purchase and League though is that the store isn't going to come to your house and take the stuff you purchased. Also, the parent's knowingly gave them the money to use. My example has to do with the legality of the user contract. No person under the age of 18 can make a contract or be held up to it. That is why many CD companies 12-15 years ago went bankrupt when kids under 18 made orders online using a birth date that made them look 18. The company sent the CD's expecting payment but never received any so they tried to submit it to collection but could never get anymore because the kids doing this were under 18 which voided the contract they had made with the company saying they would pay shipping fee, etc etc. I remember when i was in the 8th grade almost everyone in my class did this and not one person ended up paying for them.

LF Annie1 votes

its EULA, NOT EULC, its an agreement, not a contract. they say what they will do, if you do X, not anything you are obligated to do if they do X.

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

I would think that the parents would probably need to press charges against the child to demonstrate that the payments were not authorized.

Ada Wong1 votes

{quoted}

So I have been thinking about this for a while since it seem's the only players who get perma banned are toxic players and almost never the troll's who caused them to be toxic in the first place.

Riot has all users "accept" user agreement that includes a statement about them owning all content , aka skins, champs, anything you spend real money on. They are just allowing you to pay money to use them. Along with the a clause that says they can take it for whatever reason (aka BAN YOU). Now my question is, if you are a kid under the age of 18 you cannot make ANY legal binding contract with anyone your parents have to for you, so what if , lets say a 14 year old used his parents credit card spending 100's if not a couple thousand dollars on their account and then was permanently banned? The parents are technically the ones the money came from and NEVER signed the agreement. Furthermore, the kid was not old enough to sign any sort of contract accepting terms of use from Riot. Under the law would Riot have to refund the money used? Or could they face a lawsuit?

Remember this is just a hypothetical situation that I was thinking about the other day.

EDIT: In this example the parent knowingly let child use card or money or whatever have you. The question is the parent never accepted terms of use only the child which cannot be help accountable since they are under the legal age to do so.

If it didn't say this in it you could likely sue them however you can sue for any reason anyone you want if you have the money the question is about winning or getting it thrown out, but anyways here it is.

. If a company fails to put a agreement about minors in their agreement then yes you could sue them however you should read the full agreement, for any game or service, and if they update or change and you no longer agree OPT-Out, don't agree or use their service anymore so if you had a legal issue you could sue for during the time before you no loger agree you could sue. ** Here's Riot Games "Terms OF Use" That prevents this, keep in mind it doesn't prevent legal action usually you can sue anyone you want, but likely wont win, or seek legal advice too.**

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/legal/termsofuse

B. Eligibility. Only “natural persons,” as opposed to any kinds of legal entities (e.g., corporations, limited liability companies, and/or partnerships), shall have the privilege of establishing an Account. By entering into this Agreement and creating an Account, you represent that you are an adult and have the legal capacity to enter into a contract in the jurisdiction where you reside. You agree to comply with this Agreement on behalf of yourself and, at your discretion, any minor children for whom you are the parent or legal guardian and whom you have authorized to play the Game using your Account. You further agree that you are entirely liable for all activities conducted through your Account, and are responsible for ensuring that you and/or your child is aware of, understands, and complies with the terms of this Agreement and any and all other Riot Games rules, policies, notices and/or agreements.

DrtyTrolls1 votes

Here's the thing though, how does Riot verify that you are indeed an adult? They don't just like the online CD store issue. Kids lie all the time, i guarantee that at least 50% of the player base has violated this. So if you are not an adult, lie about it, do not have parent's consent then the "contract" is void.

LF Annie1 votes

if its void, the account made on it is void, and should be unmade, hence banned by the EULA.

Korillo1 votes

B. Eligibility. Only “natural persons,” as opposed to any kinds of legal entities (e.g., corporations, limited liability companies, and/or partnerships), shall have the privilege of establishing an Account. By entering into this Agreement and creating an Account, you represent that you are an adult and have the legal capacity to enter into a contract in the jurisdiction where you reside. You agree to comply with this Agreement on behalf of yourself and, at your discretion, any minor children for whom you are the parent or legal guardian and whom you have authorized to play the Game using your Account. You further agree that you are entirely liable for all activities conducted through your Account, and are responsible for ensuring that you and/or your child is aware of, understands, and complies with the terms of this Agreement and any and all other Riot Games rules, policies, notices and/or agreements.

THE SITE AND THE GAME ARE NOT DIRECTED AT CHILDREN UNDER 13 YEARS OF AGE, NOR DOES RIOT GAMES KNOWINGLY COLLECT INFORMATION FROM CHILDREN UNDER 13. IF YOU ARE UNDER 13, PLEASE DO NOT SUBMIT ANY PERSONALLY IDENTIFIABLE INFORMATION TO RIOT GAMES.

DrtyTrolls1 votes

Here's the thing though, how does Riot verify that you are indeed an adult? They don't just like the online CD store issue. Kids lie all the time, i guarantee that at least 50% of the player base has violated this. So if you are not an adult, lie about it, do not have parent's consent then the "contract" is void.

Korillo2 votes

{quoted}

Here's the thing though, how does Riot verify that you are indeed an adult? They don't just like the online CD store issue. Kids lie all the time, i guarantee that at least 50% of the player base has violated this. So if you are not an adult, lie about it, do not have parent's consent then the "contract" is void.

You don't, but if you agreed to it and it turns out you lied, then they don't have to return anything because you violated their terms of use. Good luck trying to sue any online gaming company for something like that ;).

DrtyTrolls1 votes

They couldn't but could the parents if it was THEIR money? Firstly, Riot cannot hold a child responsible for a "contract", Riot does not verify age or ID, AND it was the parent money to start with. I don't know i am no law expect like i mentioned it was just something i was thinking about the other day.

Korillo1 votes

{quoted}

They couldn't but could the parents if it was THEIR money? Firstly, Riot cannot hold a child responsible for a "contract", Riot does not verify age or ID, AND it was the parent money to start with. I don't know i am no law expect like i mentioned it was just something i was thinking about the other day.

If it was their parents money it would be assumed that their parents agreed to it.

Ada Wong1 votes

{quoted}

They couldn't but could the parents if it was THEIR money? Firstly, Riot cannot hold a child responsible for a "contract", Riot does not verify age or ID, AND it was the parent money to start with. I don't know i am no law expect like i mentioned it was just something i was thinking about the other day.

The thing is your kid should never have your credit-cards anyways?

And if you let them do online purchases you should use a pre-paid one with a set limit?

It also doesn't really matter with U.S Law if your dog clicks the agreement or if you do it with your eyes closed?

The thing is you are letting your kids use your computer, and create accounts without your consent (If you don't put good library software to lock out all websites you don't want them to visit and such you have control over this stuff but many parents don't do this.

DrtyTrolls1 votes

This isn't something that has happened to me just a thought. And a lot of company's example Google will refund money used if you tell them the purchase was made by a child that did not have authorization but who had gotten a hold of phone and made a purchase by mistake.

Ada Wong1 votes

{quoted}

Here's the thing though, how does Riot verify that you are indeed an adult? They don't just like the online CD store issue. Kids lie all the time, i guarantee that at least 50% of the player base has violated this. So if you are not an adult, lie about it, do not have parent's consent then the "contract" is void.

Well like I said you can sue for anything, but look at all the pornographic sites on the internet which just have a (I Agree I am over 18 enter here) and many sites which don't have any of that either.

The point is you are more likely to sue Riot for mental issues caused by their service, or game addiction because of I don't think anything in agreement about that than you are of this because if you take it to court they will look towards it being the parents fault for letting a under 18 Kid go in the internet unsupervised anyways.

Makior721 votes

Im not a lawyer and this may vary by the physical location of thebserver being played on, riot hq, or the residence of the account owner.

Riot does not have any legal obligation to return the money to the parent. Here ia the reason why.

Scenario A. Parent has no idea their card was even used. They are a victim of identity theft and their child is the perp. IF the parent wanted to file a police report against their child then they could get the money back FROM THEIR BANK. But not from riot.

Scenario B. Parent knowingly gives child their credit card so they can purchase things on league of legends. Parent did not sign any contract or click I Agree in client. Child gets banned in game. Ultimately (at least in the usa) the parent of a child is legally responsible for all actions their child takes. (from a civil stand point not criminal) this means the parent SHOULD HAVE read the EULA to / with their child and that their child would then be held accountable for their actions based on the eula. However if the parent does not do this it does not excuse them from having the account banned.

An analogy if that didnt make sense. And this i know from working in loss prevention.

A child gets caught shop lifting. The child will be dealt with in criminal court for their actions (account banned) but from a civil stand point my employer still sues the parent for their childs behavior.(loss of money)

DrtyTrolls1 votes

This inst a loss prevention situation though. Content is being paid for by a child that has no legal authority to accept any agreement or contract. Would be more like a child going into a store buying a porno mag with parents credit card, being asked if the was an adult, lied and said yes, then the store clerk catches him at door takes the magazine but doesn't give money back.

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