Boards›Player Behavior

Player behavoir in contex

Troxic··2 votes·751 views

I guess I need to thoroughly explain my position since most you respond with knee jerk reactions.

What is appropriate, or what is considered not appropriate, rude or bad manners is entirely based on the situation you are in. If you are an infantry grunt, its entirely appropriate and acceptable to make very off color jokes with your buddies. But you wouldn't make those same jokes at the family dinner table. If you did, you would be guilty only of bad manners and being thoughtless, but trying to equate it to breaking a moral law would be ridiculous.

So when it comes to online behavoir, its not a question of right or wrong, its a question of the situation. The fact that Riot had to implement something to change how people talk and behave online means that a lot of people feel its okay to talk differently online than in real life. In fact, I would argue that the natural inclination of most people is to type what they want to in the words they want to.

I think its logically wrong to try to declare that just because you wouldn't talk to this or that person in real life in such in such situation you shouldn't do it online is absurd, and completely ignores what drives how people behave--the situation.

This why I think is absurd to try to change how people feel they should be able to act online. It would be like a company commander trying to tell the grunts that they shouldn't make vile sexist racist jokes while in the field doing some shit training. That just won't work.

Because of the situation I described, telling someone fuck you, eat a dick or a sergeant telling you to pull your head out of your ass, doesn't carry the same weight, or offensiveness as it would if, say, your boss told you the same thing. And neither does it carry the same weight online, and therefore, its ludicrous to try to apply the same social standard as (which? Which real life situation are you drawing the standard from?) online.

This is why I find this hardline approach to whats acceptable to type in chat outrageous and ineffective. Never mind that it completely ignores the root cause of why this game brings out "toxic" behavoir in so many people.

All of you always jump on me for declaring that people should be able type what they want in the chat. And you are so conditioned to believe I am wrong, I would urge you to re-read this post, take a step back, and try to understand what I am saying.

32 Comments

Chermorg9 votes

Because of the situation I described, telling someone fuck you, eat a dick or a sergeant telling you to pull your head out of your ass, doesn't carry the same weight, or offensiveness as it would if, say, your boss told you the same thing.

I think most people disagree with you here. Simply hiding behind the veil of anonymity on the internet does not change the effect and meaning of words. While it may not have the same effect (as players can instantly mute you on League, while they can't so easily do so in real life), it has the same meaning, and offensiveness.

You assume that people downvote and comment because they are having a knee-jerk reaction that you're wrong. Instead, I'd like you to consider the fact that maybe this many people disagree with your opinions - it's not a knee-jerk reaction it's just that however you word it your opinions are generally the same and the reaction is the same because people still disagree with your opinions, no matter what way you try to word them.

Troxic1 votes

The situation absolutely changes the meaning of words.

"maybe this many people disagree with your opinions "

The sample size of the boards is small and the type of people who want to shoot my opinion down skews this even further. The boards disagreeing with me does not make the case one way or the other.

ModPeriscope1 votes

true, but the boards still represent at least part of the community.

I didn't like your post. You made your point that the "situation" should yield different and therefore acceptable levels of behavior. Yet, your two situations have varying and inexcusable differences. Why should a group that should be like brothers have the same standards as a group of 5 strangers?

TrulyBland3 votes

I like how you start out explaining why in certain contexts others might not agree with the way you say things, and then elegantly switch to explain how online people themselves want to use whichever words they like.

Let's also not forget that the argument here is essentially "as long as enough people do it, it's obviously okay". Everything you say could, some time ago, have been used to defend beating one's wife.

Here's the bottom line: You keep saying how saying these things online is different somehow... but you never explain why that's supposedly the case. Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

Hell, it doesn't even make sense to talk about context here. "Online behaviour" isn't a context. It's a medium of communication. Whether you insult your boss in person, via e-mail, letter or telegram probably won't matter much to your boss. And whether you insult a complete stranger in person, via LoL's chat or via smoke Signals, that still makes you a dick.

Troxic1 votes

"Whether you insult your boss in person, via e-mail, letter or telegram probably won't matter much to your boss"

It absolutely would. Have you never dealt with human beings in real life"? The same words in person could easily get a more severe reaction, especially if others are in earshot or hes prone to say whatever comes to mind first without thinking before hes speaks. Whereas the exact same insult via email is more likely to get a measured response, and not an emotional in the moment reaction.

What are you even talking about dude.

Jo0o2 votes

What's missing from your argument is that online communication is anonymous. This skews the conversation towards toxicity and general douchebaggery. In practice, League is governed by comparable rules of conduct to a professional office or a school classroom, except with a higher frequency of offenders due to that anonymity.

I don't think your military comparison has any merit. This isn't war, this is a video game. It's very reasonable to expect you to treat your fellow players with respect.

Troxic1 votes

Why is it reasonable to treat a person with respect that

a) I don't know b) I didn't specifically choose to play with c) whos actions are affecting MY individual ranking?

Jo0o2 votes

If you're fundamentally unwilling to extend respect to your fellow man unless you're being actively rewarded for doing so, then that's infinitely more relevant to your issues with the behavioral system than anything else we're talking about here.

Do you also not hold doors open for people in public?

Troxic1 votes

I dont respect players who play poorly or troll a match, which costs me my ranking. I hold doors open for people because they didnt just fuck over my LP a moment ago.

Jo0o3 votes

Folks don't live to serve you.

Figure out a way to be cordial to your fellow players, or just stay silent. The system isn't going to change, and your entire argument for change can be reduced to the fact that you aren't a nice person and wish that the world didn't judge you for such.

Troxic1 votes

Haha right. You got me! I'm not a nice person! GOOD rebuttal.

Jo0o2 votes

It's not really a rebuttal, at this point. It's a resignation.

For all the points and counterpoints we can dance around, for all the unique threads on the subject you make, at the end of the day you're simply not nice. Nobody can present a logical breakthrough to you on this subject, because you lack the quality to be nice to people. This is the third or fourth thread you've made about the behavioral system, and you never seem satisfied by the responses you get (and judging by the downvotes, folks tend to enthusiastically disagree with your points). It's not because of shockingly different worldviews, or educational backgrounds, or complex core values. You're just not nice.

Troxic1 votes

At this point, I think Im going to correct you. I served the Marines in the infantry. I served in Iraq. I help homeless people even when I barely have any money sometimes. I go out of my way to help others in real life, whether its emotional support or monetary support. I step and stop fights breaking out, at my own personal risk. I bend over backwards for others because its my pleasure to help those in need and I do it often when I don't even feel like it. The fact that I believe:

1)people should be free to say what they want 2)bans on language don't help or change anything and 3)Addressing the root cause of toxicity would help with how people behave in chat in ranked

has NOTHING to do with what kind of person I am. I am a better, more compassionate an stronger human being than you will probably ever be. You don't accept my argument so all you can do is try to define my character.

Jo0o4 votes

There's a very real possibility that you're a good person. I didn't say you're not a good person. I said you're not a nice person. There's a difference. And shit, maybe you are nice to people you face in everyday life. I don't know your life. Maybe I'm entirely wrong. But your repeated insistence that rules against toxic chat use are unjust and pointless makes it questionable. Perhaps there's a difference in how you present in public versus behind a screen. You'd be far from the first person for that to be true of.

Society has unwritten rules akin to what League enforces. Maybe the police don't immediately swoop down on you if you yell at somebody in a parking lot, but folks who can't stay civil and polite invariably lose out on opportunities, both personal and professional. It doesn't matter whether the recipient of the individual's civility "earns" that respect or not. That's just how you act.

What I can't wrap my head around is your insistence that enforcing a behavioral system is the equivalent to Orwellian thought-policing. Surely you've had a job with requirements imposed on your interpersonal conduct, or been aware of similar policies when you were in school, or had the simple understanding that you can't unload a torrent of slurs on the guy ahead of you in line at Starbucks because they took an extra twenty seconds to select what drink they wanted.

Perhaps I'm guilty of trying to define your character, but the one unwilling to accept arguments is you. You're consistently making these threads and farming the hell out of downvotes. The community as a whole has shown widespread disagreement with your point of view. The only support you seem to get tends to be folks that have been banned and don't take responsibility for their hand in it.

Troxic1 votes

"What I can't wrap my head around is your insistence that enforcing a behavioral system is the equivalent to Orwellian thought-policing"

Haha wait, WHAT? I am the one who doesn't want ANY enforcement on what people say. How are you even saying I want thought-policing???

Jo0o1 votes

That's not what I said. "Your insistence THAT enforcing yadda yadda IS the equivalent to yadda yadda".

soclosetosmooth1 votes

[deleted]

TrulyBland2 votes

It's called free speech you swine, and shall not be infringed.

By the government? Sure thing. But by the Starbucks employees who will very likely ask you to leave and refuse to provide you their service in this situation? Nope. They (and whoever you chose to insult) have rights, too.

Trying to twist all of this into that neet little strawman that you can more easily attack than actual arguments doesn't change the fact that free speech does not protect you from the consequences of what you say.

soclosetosmooth1 votes

[deleted]

TrulyBland3 votes

Starbucks employees don't get curtail my free speech one bit.

No they don't, but they also don't have to let you stay on private property or offer you their services. If you start insulting their customers they will show you the door, and they have every right to do so.

And seriously, read up on what free speech actually is about. It only protects you from the government's censorship. Nothing more. So clearly starbucks couldn't have you arrested (since that would be done by the government) for what you said... but they can very much have you arrested for trespassing if you refuse to leave after they asked you to leave as a direct consequence to what you said.

How ironic that you accuse me (who isn't even American, btw) of not understanding how free speech works. Or that you accuse me of using a strawman. Hey, this should be funny: What do you think a strawman argument is?

Jo0o1 votes

Hot damn, somebody whipped up an alt account for little old me?

nerak231 votes

{quoted}

Nice try attempting to walk back your comments. It won't work. You already made a blanket statement about the OP, and indeed implied he had a huge character flaw. You're a self-righteous prick, plain and simple. And a slight fascist to boot. Yeah, you are guilty of trying to define his entire character.

And yes, you can unload a torrent of "slurs" at someone in Starbucks if you want because they took too long to order a drink. It's called free speech you swine, and shall not be infringed. Sure, you might be a dick for cussing at said person in Starbucks, but not nearly as big of a dick as you who thinks they have to right to police people's speech.

I can already tell you're the type of person who thinks there should be legal consequences for calling someone the wrong pronoun. OP gets support from people like me who believe in free speech, and despise swine like you who try impose your Orwellian post-modernist thought-policing. You're so transparent and you don't even know it.

Nice attempt to make a moot point. Resort to insults and flamming.

Riot makes the rules, Not you and your friends ;)

Why don't you roast me awhile ?

soclosetosmooth1 votes

[deleted]

nerak231 votes

{quoted}

Why, thank you! You can think my point was moot, and I can think you're wrong.

Riot makes the rules, you say? NO! I don't believe it! Thanks for the heads up Captain Obvious.

Hey Your Welcome, here to please :)

TrulyBland3 votes

I go out of my way to help others in real life

Newsflash: This is real life.

Killing people ingame, items, gold, and everything else about the game are not a part of real life, but the chat very much is. This right now is real me communicating with real you via the very real internet. This is a real human interaction. And so is every other interaction you have ingame.

zenkai45111 votes

So if you don't know someone, that's reason alone to be an asshole? How would you ever talk to anyone ever?

Troxic1 votes

Well for starters, if they dont like like an idiot and cause me grief that would help. You think I just treat people like shit for no reason? No, they have to do something fucking stupid first.

ModPeriscope4 votes

So, if you're flaming someone, there's at least 3 things that are negatively affecting your LP gain.

  1. you're angering the other player, and that player is no longer 100% focused on his play
  2. that player might just mute you, which leads to a lack of communication as well as...
  3. you're wasting your time, time better spent playing the game better.
HalcyonDweller1 votes

I see what you mean, that there are certain standards of behavior normally when interacting with other people in other contexts. Certainly in some places where it is part of the culture, using such demeaning language is considered acceptable. But I think that it comes down to how anonymity and the briefness of interactivity in league affects peoples' perspectives on one another.

It is dehumanizing to solely view others as players in your game. And that by itself isn't bad, but it contributes to a problem. The less you view other people as an equal (the less you see them as actual people), the easier it is to take what they do personally, and the easier it is to justify blaming and insulting them for it. People do this in real life too, but because we can see their face or because we have to work with them for the rest of our foreseeable future, it is dampened somewhat.

With anonymity on the internet there is no dampener. People view one another in such short snippets that our habit of snap-judging others leads to worse dehumanization; "they are just a feeder," or, "they must be just a troll." When we justify our reactions to them with this, we enable ourselves to say anything bad we want to them and it's justified in our own view.

And we could be completely right in thinking those things, but right or wrong it does not matter. Because expressing such opinions to teammates almost always leads to teamwork breaking down and creates a negative experience for everyone, including the person expressing those opinions. Riot wants people to have fun playing the game, and most people who play the game do so because they also want to have fun. As such, it is policy to punish people who exhibit harassing behavior, not just because they don't like it or because it is wrong, but actually because it hinders the fun of the game and getting rid of it or preventing it makes the game more fun.

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