Boards›Player Behavior

We need to stop using the term 'toxic' and here is why:

HalcyonDweller··5 votes·461 views

Everyone has a different definition of toxic. To some people, toxicity only encompasses hate speech or telling someone to kill themselves. To other people it includes being unsportsmanlike (for example saying "ggez"), and to other people it includes passive aggressiveness or any form of negative behavior at all.

https://youtu.be/WNEuli_dM68?t=29

When a person makes a post saying, "I got banned and I don't know why." Then we say, "well you were toxic." That does not help. They probably have a different understanding of what is toxic compared to our own understandings.

The only effective way to help the person identify what they were punished for is to just explain it: "You were probably punished because you repeatedly berated the other player for their mistakes," or, "You were punished because Riot does not tolerate <insert quote of censored speech here from the chat log they posted> "

While it may help a little bit to identify for players why they were punished, I don't think that this is enough. A lot of the time a player is punished for reacting to another player that is frustrating them, maybe by trolling, feeding, or flaming the OP in their in-game chat. So it actually helps a lot to show these players better ways of dealing with those frustrating teammates:

  • If a player frequently gets frustrated by their teammates feeding, they probably criticize teammates too harshly and that gets them punished. So it helps to show them how being too critical makes people unwilling to listen, and offer suggestions for better ways to get those teammates to listen.

  • If a player was punished for reacting to a flamer or troll, it may help to remind them why it is better to ignore and report after the game. "Reacting to a person who is flaming or trolling just signals to them that their behavior worked to get your attention. If you instead ignore them then they will have less motivation to repeat the behavior."

Lastly, I know this is probably just wishful thinking, but I think that reform cards would be a lot more effective if they included short explanations or links to articles on topics like the ones in the bullet list above. Hell, Riot could even implement a faster instant feedback system specifically for guidance instead of punishment. If players are guided onto the right path before they even have enough repeat offenses to warrant punishment then we would see a lot less toxicity, and a lot less players would reach the point of coming on the boards to complain about their ban.

What do you think? Discuss below.

15 Comments

Chermorg3 votes

Personally, I try to explain why their behavior was considered toxic by Riot. I try to avoid directly saying "your behavior was toxic" - instead I use what I consider to be objective words to describe it - things such as "negative", "insulting", "demeaning", etc.

I love your idea of bringing back the warnings for "hey, your behavior is out of line, cut it out before you get punished". There were some issues with it when it was a thing, however, one of which was confusion from people if they were being punished or not if I remember right. However I still do wish to see it return as you do.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

Personally, I try to explain why their behavior was considered toxic by Riot. I try to avoid directly saying "your behavior was toxic" - instead I use what I consider to be objective words to describe it - things such as "negative", "insulting", "demeaning", etc.

I understand completely, wasn't trying to talk about you specifically. I'm just trying to open further discussion on the topic.

I love your idea of bringing back the warnings for "hey, your behavior is out of line, cut it out before you get punished". There were some issues with it when it was a thing, however, one of which was confusion from people if they were being punished or not if I remember right. However I still do wish to see it return as you do.

Thanks! I appreciate your support on this. I hope Riot can find a way to do it without confusing players. I think it would do a lot to benefit the community.

Chermorg2 votes

I didn't think you were - was just offering my take on things to hopefully help some other people avoid saying the ambiguous and undefined "toxic" phrase :P

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Those were solid suggestions, thanks!

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

I'll be making more of an effort to use "negative" "insulting" and "demeaning" in my vocabulary when explaining punishments in the future. Like you said, the terms are objective and less ambiguous or confusing.

Verxint2 votes

Riot defines what toxic means, and whenever reds reply to "why was I banned" threads, they usually explain more than "you're toxic"

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I know this, and I agree. I'm talking about how we as players respond to people in the Player Behavior board. Also, If you read the last paragraph you will see that I propose something I think would be beneficial, an instant feedback system for guidance that kicks in before the instant feedback system for punishment.

Verxint2 votes

I honestly think that people who don't realize their chat is toxic don't deserve someone spelling it out for them. I don't have much sympathy in general for people who can't control their behavior like an adult.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

If we never give them the opportunity to change, they won't.

I've had several interactions with posters who complained about their bans where they were grateful for my advice and planned to try implementing it the text time they played.

We shouldn't just write every single one of them off as irrational, useless and beyond help.

KazaJhodo1 votes

Who cares about toxic chat, its the internet. No one gives half a shit what anyone says. Seriously.

If we want to talk about 'adults', then no one should give a remote shit what anyone says. Thats an adult, in this context at least.

I care more about toxic play. The toxic play is a million times worse than anything they say. It robs us of our free time, keep that garbage play in normals. At the very least, riot should have a good ladder where games are somewhat balanced and competitive. That would help a ton with toxicity.

Anastaecia1 votes

The thing is, acting civil to your fellow human beings is nothing new. You shouldn't need guidance on how not to be a douchebag to someone else. It's part of life in general. It is not a video game company's job to teach you manners. They pretty much say, "Hey, treat your fellow players with respect or get punished." Simple.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I agree, but some people don't understand, and others are only toxic when they are harassed. The whole point of my post is that not everyone is capable of that initially, and they could become decent or at least neutral if we just help them along a little bit.

KazaJhodo1 votes

I feel like the reason why toxicity continues to climb is because we feel like we're not being heard. We're frustrated as a player base, and we say more and more extreme things in hope that it sinks in- because in truth we can't do anything about it. Beyond that we also feel as though nothing is being done about it.

Sure there are systems in place, but when you deal with this shit nearly every single game- as players we feel like we're not being heard. So we say crazier and crazier stuff, that we would never say to someone in person, in hope that the extreme treatment will get us listened to.

I report people all the time and say crazy shit and I'm swearing and upset with this rude son of a bitch that inted and wasted my time. I know I say way nuttier stuff than I ever would because I feel as though its not doing anything. No one is reading it, no one actually gives a shit, nothing is being done about it.

When players feel like nothing is being done you either go to the extreme or just shut down and curl up into a ball. If I actually thought riot was going to read my reports, I wouldn't report like a raging idiot. I just don't think anyone cares, so its a vent channel to get it out not in game chat, and move on. With the slight tinge of hope that maybe something will be done this time, maybe.

This lack of response builds into frustration which turns into toxicity, which is why tons of people are toxic, or muting their entire team or just afking or trolling. If riot doesn't give a shit, why should the players?

The system actually breeds toxicity/frustration, actually encourages it by not reacting how the players feel is appropriate. I'm sure I speak for us all when I say we feel completely unheard. Now the high elo can enter and call us silver babies and shit. lol

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I agree with that up to a point. I think that the system does not do enough to support players, but I still think that we the players are responsible for our own toxicity.

I get the impression from your comment that you think Riot is at fault and the players are all victims, which I cannot agree with.

KazaJhodo2 votes

Riot is at fault for some of it, not all of it. The main part that likely I wasn't clear regarding, is that its toxic to have an unbalanced ladder system. Players that are playing against and with players of random skillsets are going to get frustrated and become toxic. I'm incredibly patient, and I still find myself being overall more toxic than not. Well, perhaps that isn't true, but I feel way more toxic than I should be, even if it isn't much. Its certainly not my normal behavior.

By not taking proper care balancing out the ladder and creating well balanced games, they promote toxicity and overall just hurt their own product. This includes not taking measures to stop smurfing, afks, trolling and so on. Not that they don't try, but its certainly not effective. At least in my experience.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

Riot is at fault for some of it, not all of it. The main part that likely I wasn't clear regarding, is that its toxic to have an unbalanced ladder system. Players that are playing against and with players of random skillsets are going to get frustrated and become toxic. I'm incredibly patient, and I still find myself being overall more toxic than not. Well, perhaps that isn't true, but I feel way more toxic than I should be, even if it isn't much. Its certainly not my normal behavior.

By not taking proper care balancing out the ladder and creating well balanced games, they promote toxicity and overall just hurt their own product. This includes not taking measures to stop smurfing, afks, trolling and so on. Not that they don't try, but its certainly not effective. At least in my experience.

Ah thanks for clarifying, I understand now. And I gotta say I agree with you on this! I've had similar experiences myself.

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