The issue with the behaviour system is that it is too black and white.

Dasdi96·Nov 4, 2016·6 votes·9,902 views

Disclaimer: I am not currently punished for behaviour. The behaviour system works like this: It has a list of phrases and words that are considered "negative". If a player is reported, the system compares the chat logs of the player to the list of words in the system. If at least 1 of the words the player said is in the list of negative words, the system issues a punishment to said player. This punishment scales extremely rapidly to the point were the 4th punishment is permanent ban. You can only go down a tier if you go 3 months without getting punished again. 3 months is honestly too much for reforming. It should be about 20 games without getting punished again to be considered "reformed". This will keep the players who are constantly toxic punished, but will be more fair to players who frustrated every once in a while.

80 Comments

RiotRiot TantramNov 4, 201628 votes

The behaviour system works like this: It has a list of phrases and words that are considered "negative". If a player is reported, the system compares the chat logs of the player to the list of words in the system. If at least 1 of the words the player said is in the list of negative words, the system issues a punishment to said player.

This is not how the system works. It is not a keyword based system. It also isn't that black and white. It is a machine learning system that learns from the community what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. It doesn't just say, 'they said a word on a list, they get punished.'

You can only go down a tier if you go 3 months without getting punished again. 3 months is honestly too much for reforming. It should be about 20 games without getting punished again to be considered "reformed".

This is not entirely true. The amount of time it takes to be back in good standing is related to how severe your behavior was, what your last penalty was, how often you've been penalized, and you current behavior. Players who are having a bad day, penalized for behavior that is out of character for them and get a light penalty with be back in good standing rather quickly. Players with a history of poor behavior, those who frequently receieve penalties, and those exhibiting severe behavior will take longer.

The 3 month mark that is repeated on the boards is related to a quote saying it takes the average penalized player 3 months to get back in good standing.

Great MutaNov 4, 20164 votes

This is not how the system works. It is not a keyword based system. It also isn't that black and white. It is a machine learning system that learns from the community what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. It doesn't just say, 'they said a word on a list, they get punished.'

The system is black and white. Every player here has been told many times that the situation does not matter nor excuse anything. Even if the whole team is harassing you, you can still get reported if you dare saying anything back and you will likely get punished if you AFK. There is no lee way or consideration for the situation. This is why many people feel that it is more dangerous to react to a troll than to actually troll yourself.

This is not entirely true. The amount of time it takes to be back in good standing is related to how severe your behavior was, what your last penalty was, how often you've been penalized, and you current behavior.

Why is this information not published anywhere? The best we got was here: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Boqd81O0-upcoming-upgrades-to-chat-restrictions?sort_type=best and another post that I can't find right now from a Rioter that said 2 week suspensions require 6 months of good behavior to clear up.

And then what exactly is good/bad behavior? Riot has no clear postings of rules or what is really allowed, aside from some general things. How can people possibly obey the rules or accurately report people who break the rules without a clear understanding of what is or isn't allowed? Most users don't know that asking for reports isn't okay and I'm not even sure if "GG EZ" is reportable despite playing 1000+ games and frequenting this forum.

Hambone2013Nov 4, 20169 votes

Rules are very simple. Don't be a dick. Well that's a summary the summoners code, the guidelines for behavior, aren't that hard to find.

You're right though it doesn't matter who started an argument in the game. Riot is in the right to not care who started a fight because if it's only two people the others on the team are stuck with them. If you are being harassed. Be the bigger person and ignore them. It's not hard. Let the guys running the show handle them

Great MutaNov 4, 20163 votes

Rules are very simple. Don't be a dick.

"Being a dick" isn't a factually based thing. It's all opinion and which side you stand on. I could list various situations but what might be considered being a dick to you, might not be to me or various situations

Hambone2013Nov 4, 20167 votes

http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/get-started/summoners-code/

There you go. Codified and ready to sum up as don't be a dick.

Great MutaNov 4, 20163 votes

It's just too open ended with the various situations that happen in the game. These are good general ideas but little else.

The best rules are the ones that are clearly stated and account for various situations.

Hambone2013Nov 4, 20164 votes

If they are so difgicult to follow why aren't more people perma'd? Why do people heavily majority agree on banned players logs? For a game like league you cannot have a rulebook that covers every situation the damn thing would be longer than war and peace and make the nfl rulebook look simple. A flexible system let's the players largely police themselves.

Great MutaNov 4, 20164 votes

If they are so difgicult to follow why aren't more people perma'd?

We don't know how many people were banned or not. Riot doesn't release that. We just know that there are around 100 million players and 5 perecent have been punished, meaning 5 million players have been punished in some form. Even all of the people on here and r/league of legends on reddit wouldn't even account for 1% of the playerbase.

Why do people heavily majority agree on banned players logs?

Many members of this forum do have an agenda and have a history of passive aggressive "you deserve to be banned" type of posts. Unfortunately, upvoting/scoring systems like the ones used here encourage people to go for the opinion that gets them the most karma. Many of these people, who are all members of the Rito Butt Slappers Club, also use statements by Riot to fuel this behavior.

For a game like league you cannot have a rulebook that covers every situation the damn thing would be longer than war and peace and make the nfl rulebook look simple.

You could. The pro leagues do it. Why shouldn't League? I do not think it would take very much at all to accomplish that.

Hambone2013Nov 4, 20163 votes

Then you vastly underestimate the kind of undertaking writing a rulebook like that would be. First as an example tell me do you know the rules for a catch in the nfl?

Great MutaNov 4, 20163 votes

Like I said, I don't think there is much they would have to cover.

First as an example tell me do you know the rules for a catch in the nfl?

Looks like a good starter here: http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/completing-a-catch/ and the actual rulebook here: http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2016-nfl-rulebook/#article-3.-completed-or-intercepted-pass

Rito, who makes 2 billion dollars a year, can't produce something even on a small scale resembling this?

Hambone2013Nov 4, 20163 votes

Did you by any chance READ the rule or did you just link it? My point wasn't can you Google it. My point was the rule is codified to the point where even the people who are playing the game aren't sure and that's one of the most basic actions in the game. Codifying every thing that could happen in a game of league is too difficult.

In addition it would require every player to know and understand the rules as written and as others have said then you just get people skirting the very extreme edge of acceptable behavior.

Great MutaNov 4, 20162 votes

Did you by any chance READ the rule or did you just link it? My point wasn't can you Google it.

The rules are there and can be read by anyone. The rules for a lot of things in League are not available. I'm not sure what else you are looking for here.

My point was the rule is codified to the point where even the people who are playing the game aren't sure and that's one of the most basic actions in the game. Codifying every thing that could happen in a game of league is too difficult.

It would provide a great answer and reference point for players who would like to know, like myself. It's on the players if they didn't read the rule and disagreed with the result.

In addition it would require every player to know and understand the rules as written and as others have said then you just get people skirting the very extreme edge of acceptable behavior.

Again, it would be available for anyone who wanted to read it. Reading it or not is up to the player to decide. At least it would be there for various situations

Hambone2013Nov 4, 20164 votes

The average player will never fall afoul of the RAW anyway. The only type of people who would want everything set in stone are those that want to know what they can get away with.

Simple solution. Don't tell them

Hambone2013Nov 4, 20163 votes

Rules as written. You see people who don't understand a simple social contract on here.

ModUlanopoNov 4, 20168 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Muta,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=MIBGEN1J,comment-id=0005000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-04T20:06:35.663+0000)

Like I said, I don't think there is much they would have to cover.

Looks like a good starter here: http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/completing-a-catch/ and the actual rulebook here: http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2016-nfl-rulebook/#article-3.-completed-or-intercepted-pass

Rito, who makes 2 billion dollars a year, can't produce something even on a small scale resembling this?

Given that I live in Detroit and go to most of the games, it took a LOT of willpower to not downvote you for quoting the "Calvin Johnson" rule, which is anything but concise or clear.

Great MutaNov 4, 20163 votes

You would then become a member of the "Rito Butt Slappers Club". Choose wisely.

ModUlanopoNov 5, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Muta,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=MIBGEN1J,comment-id=000500000000000000000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-11-04T23:46:29.672+0000)

You would then become a member of the "Rito Butt Slappers Club". Choose wisely.

Uh-huh, it wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that I'm a Lions fan AND you used the exact opposite of a concise, easy-to-understand rule.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Great MutaNov 5, 20161 votes

Hey, I'm a Brisbane Lions fan too.

Hambone2013Nov 5, 20161 votes

That was kinda my point when I brought up the catch rule. It's an overly complicated rule on a simple concept.

Sorry to hear about the Lions fan thing though. I hear it's hereditary. Look on the bright side though it's not a case of Browns fan.

ModUlanopoNov 6, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Sorry to hear about the Lions fan thing though. I hear it's hereditary. Look on the bright side though it's not a case of Browns fan.

I grew up about as close to Chicago as you can get and still be in Michigan. I come from a long line of Bears fans.

Hambone2013Nov 7, 20161 votes

That's got to be awkward at gatherings.

Awkward CouchNov 4, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Muta,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=MIBGEN1J,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-04T19:04:09.291+0000)

It's just too open ended with the various situations that happen in the game. These are good general ideas but little else.

The best rules are the ones that are clearly stated and account for various situations.

As soon as someone makes a brightline, people look for ways around them. For example, all performance enhancing drugs are deemed illegal for Chess. This is a brightline rule that tries to get performers to stop taking Adderall. However under that current rule, caffeine is also illegal since it stimulates your brain, and thus would be considered cheating. The rule seems ridiculous, but it does give that clear what is and is not acceptable, but it's not necessarily a good rule.

Rules should be clear, but also be flexible, without flexibility, you run into cases where clear offenders get off scot free because it wasn't clearly stated that it's against the rules.

ModUlanopoNov 4, 20168 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Muta,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=MIBGEN1J,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-04T19:04:09.291+0000)

It's just too open ended with the various situations that happen in the game. These are good general ideas but little else.

The best rules are the ones that are clearly stated and account for various situations.

"Treat others with respect, patience and kindness."

Great MutaNov 4, 20163 votes

Let me know when the NFL goes with the policy instead of a rulebook. I'm sure it'll work out great.

Til then expect multiple posts per day with people wondering why they got banned and constant reports of harassment and verbal abuse.

ModUlanopoNov 4, 20167 votes

My point was that you really should have used a different rule as an example. The "completing the motion of the catch" rule is subjective garbage.

Great MutaNov 4, 20162 votes

I'm not into football, I'm into League and League needs clearer rules so people stop flaming and stop getting in trouble.

ModUlanopoNov 4, 20169 votes

"Don't use language or exhibit behavior that would be inappropriate at the funeral of an older person who was beloved to you."

Dominick DestineNov 5, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=MIBGEN1J,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-11-04T18:27:06.672+0000)

It has a list of phrases and words that are considered "negative". If a player is reported, the system compares the chat logs of the player to the list of words in the system. If at least 1 of the words the player said is in the list of negative words, the system issues a punishment to said player. This is not how the system works. It is not a keyword based system. It also isn't that black and white. It is a machine learning system that learns from the community what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. It doesn't just say, 'they said a word on a list, they get punished.&#x27 , This is not entirely true. The amount of time it takes to be back in good standing is related to how severe your behavior was, what your last penalty was, how often you've been penalized, and you current behavior. Players who are having a bad day, penalized for behavior that is out of character for them and get a light penalty with be back in good standing rather quickly. Players with a history of poor behavior, those who frequently receieve penalties, and those exhibiting severe behavior will take longer. The 3 month mark that is repeated on the boards is related to a quote saying it takes the average penalized player 3 months to get back in good standing.

The above quoted SEVERELY contradicts the time you and your men hit me with a zero-to-permaban for low-to-moderate toxicity.

RiotRiot TantramNov 7, 201621 votes

For the 20th?? time. You were NOT punished by the automated system. You were punished by MANUAL REVIEW. You were also given a 14-day ban, NOT a perma-ban.

LongHair FoxNov 7, 20169 votes

This rioter has legendary patience to even reply this many times. Sorry tantram but I doubt you can convince everyone to stop posting lies or misunderstandings. Keep up the good work though, we love you even if it is not very clear.

Dominick DestineNov 7, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=MIBGEN1J,comment-id=000500020000,timestamp=2016-11-07T19:08:23.949+0000)

For the 20th?? time. You were NOT punished by the automated system. You were punished by MANUAL REVIEW. You were also given a 14-day ban, NOT a perma-ban.

I have great respect for your work, Riot Tantram but you don't seem to remember what I have said; I never said the automated system hit me with a permaban, in fact the post you are responding to specifically states that it was a Riot human that committed the act against me.

Also please explain to me why the in-game message, email and even support-ticket interactions all said I was "PERMABANNED" ? was that just a massive oversight? I am just saying ... stating that I am being given mixed signals would be a colossal understatement, I can provide screenshots and quotes of the "You have been permanently suspended" message I got from every possible source.

TrulyBlandNov 7, 20162 votes

I never said the automated system hit me with a permaban

But you replied to his explanation of the automated system, saying your case contradicts what he said.

Kei143Nov 7, 20161 votes

you know that you got hacked and suspicious activites were happening on your account, thus your account was permanantly suspended for security reasons till you wrote in.

it has nothing to do with your 14-day suspension.

Dominick DestineNov 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

you know that you got hacked and suspicious activites were happening on your account

I have NEVER been involved in any use of third party programs or "suspicious activities".

Those are BS charges... security reasons my ass.

Kei143Nov 8, 20162 votes

dude, being hacked is not the same as using hacks!

being hacked is when the hackers log onto your account and use your name to send phishing links or try out their scripts.

In your case it was probably the prior scenario.

TrulyBlandNov 8, 20161 votes

dude, being hacked is not the same as using hacks!

And suspicious activity isn't even the same as being hacked.

boo910Nov 7, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=MIBGEN1J,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-11-04T18:27:06.672+0000)

It has a list of phrases and words that are considered "negative". If a player is reported, the system compares the chat logs of the player to the list of words in the system. If at least 1 of the words the player said is in the list of negative words, the system issues a punishment to said player.

This is not how the system works. It is not a keyword based system. It also isn't that black and white. It is a machine learning system that learns from the community what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. It doesn't just say, 'they said a word on a list, they get punished.'

This is not entirely true. The amount of time it takes to be back in good standing is related to how severe your behavior was, what your last penalty was, how often you've been penalized, and you current behavior. Players who are having a bad day, penalized for behavior that is out of character for them and get a light penalty with be back in good standing rather quickly. Players with a history of poor behavior, those who frequently receieve penalties, and those exhibiting severe behavior will take longer.

The 3 month mark that is repeated on the boards is related to a quote saying it takes the average penalized player 3 months to get back in good standing.

thats interesting

but how does a machine learn

VansOffTheWallJan 25, 2018

Hello there Rioter, I just got a 14day ban. It’s my first time being punish, I had a bad day and some how I release my anger in that game. And I know my next punishment is permanent ban. How to not get permanent ban, like reform what can I do, because I spend quite amount of money into the game, and I really like the game.

YerroFeverJan 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Hello there Rioter, I just got a 14day ban. It’s my first time being punish, I had a bad day and some how I release my anger in that game. And I know my next punishment is permanent ban. How to not get permanent ban, like reform what can I do, because I spend quite amount of money into the game, and I really like the game.

https://whyevolutionistrue.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/necro.jpg

Hambone2013Nov 4, 20164 votes

It takes more than a couple games to get punished the system already has leeway built into it for people having a bad day.

nerak23Nov 4, 20162 votes

{quoted}

It takes more than a couple games to get punished the system already has leeway built into it for people having a bad day.

:) I got that, just wondering where OP came up with a list of words-ONLY....I mean unless it's hate speech ?

Hambone2013Nov 4, 20162 votes

Oh I was talking at the op. I don't know where only words came into it either.

nerak23Nov 4, 20163 votes

It has a list of phrases and words that are considered "negative". If a player is reported, the system compares the chat logs of the player to the list of words in the system.

Wait wut?

nerak23Nov 4, 20163 votes

Oh I was talking at the op. I don't know where only words came into it either.

Your comment was put up on my comment list also :) Don't mean to confuse it all just replying to a notification :)

nerak23Nov 4, 20163 votes

How can people possibly obey the rules or accurately report people who break the rules without a clear understand of what is or isn't allowed?

Not so hard to do... Don't be a jerk.

Riot can't define Everything in exact "black and white" because they are always changing, some players will try to take advantage of any specific rules surrounded the above mentioned things.

Great MutaNov 4, 20162 votes

Not so hard to do... Don't be a jerk

"Being a jerk" isn't a factually based thing. It's all opinion and which side you stand on. I could list various situations but what might be considered being a jerk to you, might not be to me or various situations

Riot can't define Everything in exact "black and white" because they are always changing, some players will try to take advantage of any specific rules surrounded the above mentioned things.

The NFL does a great job in covering rule changes, even has a special section for changes this year: http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2016-nfl-rulebook/#article-3.-completed-or-intercepted-pass

VoidStaresBackNov 5, 20163 votes

Perhaps you should link NFL rules on unsportsmanlike conduct, which would be far more accurate to what's being discussed. Unlike the NFL, the rules of League of Legends from a mechanical standpoint are baked into the program itself and don't need to be codified at the same level as things like an intercepted pass and whatnot. The rules you're asking for as a "complete and comprehensive list of every situation and statement that will get you in trouble", which is not only completely impossible because so much of human interaction depends on social context but would then permit people breaking the spirit of the law but not the letter by skirting around the edges. To everyone except you and a handful of others, the rules are clear on what is and isn't permitted, and Riot does not need to write a five thousand page book of acceptable and unacceptable behaviors because a few people can't understand "don't be a dick" from a social perspective.

scazzmanNov 5, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Perhaps you should link NFL rules on unsportsmanlike conduct, which would be far more accurate to what's being discussed. Unlike the NFL, the rules of League of Legends from a mechanical standpoint are baked into the program itself and don't need to be codified at the same level as things like an intercepted pass and whatnot. The rules you're asking for as a "complete and comprehensive list of every situation and statement that will get you in trouble", which is not only completely impossible because so much of human interaction depends on social context but would then permit people breaking the spirit of the law but not the letter by skirting around the edges. To everyone except you and a handful of others, the rules are clear on what is and isn't permitted, and Riot does not need to write a five thousand page book of acceptable and unacceptable behaviors because a few people can't understand "don't be a dick" from a social perspective.

in the age of PC culture and safe spaces. "Dont be a dick" is INCREDIBLY subjective

Great MutaNov 5, 20162 votes

Exactly. Who decides who is being the dick?