Riot fanboys who parrot the rules of toxicity, and are not toxic, are in-fact toxic. I <3 Riot tho

TheFakeGomar··5 votes·580 views

I've been reformed for a month now, every time I've been punished it has been because I was learning what Riot's definition of "toxicity" is. This is not one of those posts saying it was unfair of riot to ban my main account, or saying Riot should change the rules on toxicity and they are too harsh, this is a discussion towards the players. I understand why I was banned, I "deserved" it because I wasn't adhering to the rules of Riot and this is their company/domain and what they say goes. I agree with my ban. It took me a while to learn that retaliating to toxicity is also considered toxicity by Riot, and I've learnt my lesson.

Now, that first paragraph alone has probably already given me a few downvotes. Every time I see a post about toxicity and a player is simply expressing their opinion that they did not deserve to be banned, and they were generally a decent person in the chat except for a "f*** you kid" once or twice, an insult directed at a troll or someone being legitimately "toxic," it has 10+ downvotes. Now, did that person deserve to be banned/or chat-restricted for insulting somebody? Of course, because these are the rules that Riot has set out, and these are the rules we must follow. However... that person absolutely did not deserve to be ridiculed and shamed by the community they were trying to protect.

Those rules(opinions) are not my rules(opinion), and I'm sure that they aren't the rules(opinion) of many of you out there either. I believe that if someone is intentionally feeding a lane, or they are harassing someone in-game, or trolling, that it is my responsibility to speak up. I understand why Riot has their toxicity rules in place, mostly because it's an easy system. Secondly, it's so the smart-peaceful morally good players can figure this out, mute/report a toxic person without insulting them or making themselves flagged as toxic to Riot's system, then they move on. However many of us (me included) are not smart and peaceful, some of us are in-fact the opposite! I would consider myself a dumb and aggressive player, but I still believe I am morally good. Before my reform, I would never have flamed someone having a bad game, someone who had made a mistake no matter how big or small. I would only express myself at someone deliberately being an ass. I won't ever do it again, because I realize now, that it is not allowed.

In my opinion Riot's report/ban/restrict system works. It does it's job... but, if you were the owner/a manager of Riot would you want an employee who only simply worked? an employee who only "did their job"? Or would you rather have an employee who goes above and beyond? An employee who eradicates toxicity and makes the game a better place? An employee who isn't so passive and is actively seeking to make the League community a better place? I know what I would pick, and it isn't the system we have now.

I like Riot, I think they're mostly a great company who do go above and beyond, they've literally changed the world (of esports :P). But Riot has unknowingly brainwashed much of it's player-base, many of you no longer have your own opinions. This is the point of this post, most of you are fanboys and listen to and only to Riot, instead of forming your own opinions and saying "hmmm I actually don't like this part here". Whenever there's a post about toxicity like I said before, it has 10+ downvotes, everyone in the comments saying something mean and deconstructive (and toxic!), like "Glad to see you banned you were toxic, bye bye :)!" or similar to. Most of the time you are saying this to somebody who was stupid, somebody who's intention wasn't to hurt someone's feelings and flame, but in-fact, somebody who was wronged and was punished for making a mistake. Somebody who while they made a mistake, they were still wronged, and you are telling them "haha you deserved it" while the person that truly deserves it ran off scott-free. You in-fact are being toxic... and I've seen this over and over, when you're putting down a fellow human trying to do good.

I've been one of those people on the other side of the screen, we have feelings too... and most of the time we think we're doing a good thing. We're so "disillusioned" with reality where the theme is stand-up for yourself, and stand-up for those who deserve your sympathy, that when we come to this game we are punished for it. "Read the Summoner's Code pleb so you can finally learn the rules" and I have finally... but who among us honestly has done that within the first few months of playing? Who reads the Terms and Conditions on any game/product/or application that you use? Almost nobody! Most of us use our common sense and understanding of the world and decide on how to use the product or service. We try not to break the rules that we know of, and go on about our way.

Now, while the system remains unchanged, I have only this to say to new players/reformed players/players who don't understand. If someone is being toxic in chat, mute them. I know you've heard this a million times before, but you're never told the reason why, so let me tell you as someone who has gone through what you are going through. I posted something on my main account, trying to understand Riot's rules on toxicity, and the Riot employee gave me an answer that made everything click. Riot believes that responding to a toxic player is in of itself toxic. Let me elaborate, the Riot employee/representative told me that most players do not want to see back and forth fighting in chat, people come here to relax and you are making the environment not-so-relaxing for them. Even if you are being polite to the toxic player, even if you don't use any insults, if you argue with a toxic player it is spamming the chat and making the environment worse off because other players have to see it. It means if you argue, you yourself are being toxic.

So the answer is, say absolutely nothing, mute them, and report them once the game is over. If you want to make the community a better place, this is how. You can't change the toxic person with words, they have to want to change themselves, report them and move on.

Now, that's how we deal with the current system as players, but how can Riot deal with toxicity in general/the future is my next thought. The answer I think is to involve the players, Riot owns this game as the government owns the land, but we the people own the community. Right now, we are mostly doing Riot's job for them by reporting toxic players to keep our community clean, peaceful, and relaxing. But we can do more. The first step has to come from us, we have to show Riot that we aren't mindless drones who listen to everything they say, drones who deserve no respect and can be trampled over. We are individuals with ideas, voices, and capabilities.

When you see a player who was banned, especially if they thought they were doing the right thing, don't put them down. Don't parrot after Riot and say "You were toxic because you reacted normally like a human being". Instead, lift them up, improve them. Let them know how to deal with the situation instead of being toxic and telling them that you are glad they are gone. Because that player could've been you. I read a Riot tip somewhere that said "everyone has bad days, just breathe"... that could've been you who had a bad day, it could've been you who was manipulated by a negative person into losing your account and taking away something you love to do.

Once Riot sees that we're an actual community, on our terms, 24/7 all the time, not a community when Riot makes the choice for us (when you're cheering for a team at a competition and showing your love for league), but when they see us actively being members of the community all the time, then and only then will there be possibility for change.

Riot has implemented a new (relatively) honor system, a system that shows us who the most respected, least toxic, players are. The players with top honor levels are pillars of the community, and I'm sure some of us would listen to and agree with them. This is only an idea, it can be criticized, it can be changed, it can be thrown away for an entirely new one, but this idea I'm about to explain is the best I could come up with in the few minutes I spent writing this.

Why don't we keep the current report system, the one that flags insults and restricted words, the one that chat bans people for anti-social behavior, and perma-bans players for repeat offenses, and augment it with another system? A system where volunteers that Riot handpicks, that the community has handpicked (high honor players), can come together with a few representatives from Riot review cases of transgressions that the current system is too slow to pick up and or cannot pick up at all. One too many times have I seen a troll say "report me nothing will happen" because their offense cannot be picked up by chat-bans, and they get away with it and are allowed to continue to plague our community. I've seen players say absolutely nothing in chat, but intentionally feed anyways because they know they can get away with it. We need a system to catch these people, and most of all we need a system to actively improve our community.

24 Comments

Umbral Regent2 votes

Rough TL;DR

Statement of reform, following statement implying people dislike recognition of bad behavior and the following reform while knowing damn well it's the title that'll earn the downvotes, assumption that the playerbase is a bunch of mindless drones with no opinions of their own, simultaneously pointing out the handful of unhelpful folks on the PB&M boards who just laugh off players who are banned, "call to action" for people to try and uplift or help correct players who get punished (which people actually do), and following suggestion of returning the Tribunal for Honor Level 5 Players.

Said suggestion being under the assumption that Honor Level 5 players are the pillars of good behavior in the community, which - while generally it should be true, there will always be exceptions.


That being said, here's my opinion; The Tribunal shouldn't ever come back, and Honor Level 5 players should not get special ability to hammer down punishments for players on their 2nd/4th+ offenses.

In fact, there's a reason that the Tribunal was iceboxed indefinitely; even with players consistently evaluating and submitting punishments to players who were reported, there literally were too many reports for players (or people in general) to handle efficiently. Using an automated system (which does have its kinks) is the best way to really deal with toxicity, and adding a human element of any kind (especially in the case of players and not Rioters) will only increase the likelihood of screwing something up.

This isn't to any discredit to players or Rioters alike, but just the knowledge of how manual review is inefficient in comparison to automated review. Not to mention, giving ANY privilege of power to a select group of players (Honor Level 5 Players) to punish other players will only beg for abuse. There are probably dozens of players who are Honor Level 5 and honestly toxic as all hell. Don't you think they'd jump at the opportunity to submit false justice?

TL;DR - I'd personally leave devising new player behavior systems to the guys at Riot's Player Behavior team.

TheFakeGomar1 votes

Haha! First off, I honestly 100% did NOT think the title would give me downvotes! You're right though, looking at it now, it does look pretty negative. I didn't mean people who support Riot, or people who love Riot are mindless drones, I specifically said Riot Fanboys for a reason. I even put a "I <3 Riot" at the end to show that I do respect and admire Riot as a company, I was only referring to the hardcore fanboys. Fanboys are a problem, period. Not just in league of legends, and I fully stand by my point. My definition of a fanboy is someone who blindly supports something (a definition most people would agree with).

So, you're right and people thought I was taking a jab at Riot and it's supporters and they downvoted me (but they misunderstood me), but there are a few people out there that I know exist, who fully understood what I meant and simply downvoted me to express their negativity and put me down. I've seen these people time and time again, downvotes are meant for toxicity/wrong information. It is not a matter of putting people down for their opinions.

You're right that some people do lift players up in the "ban posts", I guess I should have acknowledged and thanked them, I really am grateful, but this is to those who are being negative for no reason/those who want to see this behavior stopped.

And again, you're right that there are those who would seek to abuse the system I'm wishing would be implemented, but they wouldn't be able to and let me tell you why.

In the real world, just like Honor Level 5, there are candidates for police officers. Now, police officers have different reasons for joining the force, but lets imagine most of them are joining because they want to improve their community. Now, most of these police officers are in-fact pillars of their community, but like you said there are of course exceptions. There are bad honor level 5 players, just like there are bad police officers, but what's stopping the bad honor level 5 players and police officers from acting on their true nature? Two things, society, and goverment/punishment.

Now, in League, like I said, the honor level 5 players who are chosen would not be chosen by the community, they would be chosen by Riot. And... they would also be monitored and police'd by Riot, the same as the government controls the Police. This isn't to sweep the power from under Riot's feet, its mostly to make their job easier since they would have player volunteers helping them. Now, if these player volunteers abused their power, they would of course be caught by their peers (like corrupt cops getting caught by fellow police officers) and they would surely be punished by the ruling authority (Riot).

And I agree with you that manual review is inefficient compared to automated reviews, but it wouldn't be much different than the system we have in place. For one, it would bring Riot a LOT closer to the community, they wouldn't be an oppressive feared dictator (not that they are now in my opinion, but I've definitely seen people who feel that way), but they would be 100% part of our community. One of us. The system we have in place right now, is not fully automated, there is a Riot player behavior team (idk what they're called), and they do monitor things and appeal bans and restrictions and such/impose a final ruling at least. That there is the problem, the Riot employees deciding the final rulings could, in my opinion, use some much needed help (from us). It's a fact that their pace isn't the quickest/most efficient it could be, and I think we're the solution.

Thank you for being respectful and responding like an adult, seriously. Oh my god am I glad!

EvilDustMan1 votes

tldr 'I didn't actually learn why mute and move on is a good idea, so I feel superior.'

TheFakeGomar1 votes

Haha, this is exactly what I am talking about. If you actually gave me the respect I deserve as a human being you wouldn't have commented something so ignorant. I literally said in the post that I agreed with Riot's system and that it works, I said I totally learned why it exists, and I myself am glad that it is there. This post is to you and the players who downvoted me who are putting people down for having opinions.

This post is not meant for Riot, it is not meant to get my account back, it is meant for players like you.

If you actually read the post, you wouldn't be so quick to say something that doesn't even make sense or have anything to do with the topic.

Not trying to insult you or anything, in a certain mood I wouldn't have read this long post either. BUT thank you for proving my point.

TheFakeGomar1 votes

To add to how I think the system should work, I believe that a robot should NOT be allowed to perma-ban your account. I read a thread on the league boards once where a player was reciting an anecdote where another player was banned for saying "I'm stupid" or insulting himself one way or another after making a mistake, and was banned for it (he was un-banned and is actually a reformed player). A robot can make mistakes, a robot made by Riot has no right to choose who the members of this community are, we do.

This is not an attempt to weasel a way to getting my old account unbanned, I don't care about that. This is me moving forwards, I want this community to change for the better, and we can only do it as a team. We can't do it without Riot, nor can they do it without us.

Scuttle1 votes

afaik all instant feedback permas are manually reviewed by a human. someone could correct me on that, though. I may be mis-remembering it.

TheFakeGomar1 votes

There's no way that's possible. I agree some of them definitely are.

But my ban on my main account happened within seconds of the game I was reported for. It happened almost immediately and there's no way a human manually reviewed it. So... robots.

That's the biggest thing I don't agree with, that a computer program capable of errors can ban a person who possibly hadn't made a mistake.

Thank you for being the first respectful person I've encountered here, as predicted in my post, most people downvote people simply for having opinions that differ from their own, opinions that aren't inherently wrong.

I just wish the community was more together and actually discussed this important topic, instead of being negative and dismissing it.

So, really... thank you so much dude, no one is willing but you.

Infernape2 votes

There's no way that's possible. I agree some of them definitely are.

The system is machine based, but Riot do manually audit some bans (like the smite "support" Singed case).

But my ban on my main account happened within seconds of the game I was reported for. It happened almost immediately and there's no way a human manually reviewed it. So... robots.

Yeah, that's supposed to happen. IIRC the system can analyse a log and suspend someone in under 5 minutes.

That's the biggest thing I don't agree with, that a computer program capable of errors can ban a person who possibly hadn't made a mistake.

The thing is, machine learning (what Riot uses) is less likely to make mistakes compared to a human. The system has no biases (unlike us). The Tribunal proved that. People that shouldn't have gotten banned, got permanent suspensions. And those that deserved it, got off scot free. Not to mention it's much faster and less time consuming.

Ultimately, the system learns over time, what we find acceptable and what we don't find acceptable. If I recall correctly, the system (when it was first introduced) learned how phrases like "GG EZ/IZI" were considered generally unacceptable and began punishing those that used those phrases frequently.

That's why Riot support will personally look into any suspensions and will tell you if they think it's over the top or not because no system regardless of whether it's run by a human or artificial intelligence is completely foolproof.

TheFakeGomar1 votes

You're right, definitely, but this doesn't stop trolls/intentional feeders. And it leaves all the power in Riot's hands when this community is ours. The system works to stop people from being verbally toxic, and it also works to fix issues where people are incorrectly banned.

But the system, on a deep level I think, also turns the league community against itself. It's us vs each other vs Riot. We're not really a community, we're so divided. If you look at how many people downvoted this post (Riot has said that downvoting is meant to state that something is toxic/giving wrong information), you can see clearly how divided the community is.

I'm honestly glad how many downvotes this has because it proves my point that we do in-fact need to stick up for each other. Instead of teaching someone who got banned anything, people just downvote their posts and say "you deserved it haha" "glad you're gone" which is exactly what one of the commentors did here to me.

We need a system that bans trolls also (effectively), but mostly we need to work together to make the community a better place.

MaroModo1 votes

it is done automatic then when the player puts in a support ticket it is reviewed by a human is how i understand it. If the support person agrees since the room for error on a 14 day ban is so so little then the ban is upheld

TheFakeGomar1 votes

It is not. Speaking as someone who's been banned before, it happened to me less than one minute after my game that I was reported for was over. It was like 10 seconds in after the end-game lobby. There is no way that they are reviewed by a person.

I mean I could be wrong, because it takes about 20 seconds for my game to fully put me in the end-game lobby, and it took another 10 seconds until I was banned, someone could have read the chat in 30 seconds. But I doubt it since Riot has many reports to read and since I was banned so quickly.

I think the system is fine the way it is now, but it isn't perfect. It can definitely be improved one way or another. I'm not saying my suggestion to improve it is the best way, but it is a better way than the one in place, in my opinion.

MaroModo1 votes

Im agreeing it is automatic or automated however you wanna look at it when you file the support ticket which i would only assume most do then it is reviewed by a person why some bans can be overturned rare but has happened in case of error

TheFakeGomar1 votes

Yes you're right that it is reviewed if someone asks for an appeal that they were unfairly banned, but that's not fully what this post is about.

The post is partly about the 6+ people at this time who have downvoted me because they are fanboys of Riot without understanding the purpose of my post. It is also partly about how hard it is for Riot to catch trolls and feeders, and how we as a community can help them.

But, like I said it is mostly about the players who maliciously attack the opinions of others. According to Riot the downvote option is for toxic/WRONG content, this post is an opinion.

You're focusing on the wrong aspect, in my opinion, but thank you for being respectful.

MaroModo1 votes

people down vote to down vote i wouldnt put much stock in it nor worry about it you can say you cured cancer on this board and i would put money that someone would down vote you. Point is if you feel strong enough about your point and if reaches one person from Riot or even the community isnt that what counts?

edit: Not a problem by the way no reasons to be dicks to each other i was more or less confused maybe others were too who knows

TheFakeGomar2 votes

Haha! You're absolutely right... and it kind of sucks man!! That's the thing though, I'm not worried about it, I'm glad I proved my point, but I'm also hurt that I'm a part of this community.

And thats a problem, when a player posts something about their ban and they themselves are confused and want help to understand, most people insult and downvote them. We shouldn't be doing this to each other, if you are doing it you are toxic and part of the problem, we should be helping each other!

rework trundle1 votes

when a player posts something about their ban and they themselves are confused and want help to understand, most people insult and downvote them

I've never thought of it this way, good point!

MaroModo1 votes

Recently Riot has commented on the issues with detection for ints and trolls and are rolling out a new system in the future. If i remember right i believe they said we can at least control the chat and remove people who shouldnt be playing and soon enough the new program will be out (preseason i believe) and it will hopefully fix that

TheFakeGomar1 votes

That is great to hear dude, for real!

MaroModo1 votes

No problem for now just don't get baited play the game enjoy it and if what was said on the boards is true more changes are in bound.

edit: Also understand a lot of us will come on these boards and try to help players understand how and why it happened and when we do the same person flips out and takes their anger on us for being honest or we are riding Riots jock. I try to be fair i do understand that not all people who get banned are bad and they arent but when it is justified I will be just as honest. I think the IFS works as intended and i have openly said i believe it should be 14-30-perma after the chat restrictions but I doubt that will ever change

TheFakeGomar1 votes

Wow... I've only seen the posts where the banned people were either pretending to be nice/ashamed of their behavior/or sad and confused. I haven't seen any of players attacking those trying to help them, it helps me understand your point a lot more now. I can see how some players can get changed by this and instead of helping the confused they downvote and insult them because it's what they've learned. That sucks dude...

Just shows how bad this community is sometimes.

MaroModo1 votes

It is what it is. Its words on the internet they do not bother me and nor should they as someone in their 30s add in military service and I am pretty numb to that stuff there is maybe 3-4 words in the English dictionary that bother me and most revolve around the idiots who make fun of or use intellectual disabilities as a way to troll or flame a player but that is neither here nor there. Someone who just got banned is upset and then add in someone who is cold or here to troll to pour some gasoline on the situation and you get what you see around here. There are some good ones here to name 2 is Deep Terror Nami and Cheermog both of which are very very honest and fair but take a lot of shit in return and really have to toe a line since they have volunteer mod status

TheFakeGomar1 votes

Yeah same, I honestly don't even mind racism (I know it bothers some people, but myself being mixed race with 0% white in me, I don't get offended personally), because those who are truly racist are just incredibly ignorant and it's funny to me how oblivious they are.

But that gets at me too, I don't think I'm as passionate about it as you are, but intelligence is not something we all posses and we should not be judged for it. Sure, intelligence is a good quality, but so is hard work, loyalty, and empathy, right? No one can be perfect and possess every good quality.

Primaquarius1 votes

https://giphy.com/gifs/12MKIYWae1OHW8

We parrot the Terms of Service and follow it because we prefer not wasting the time and money put into out accounts on flaming and moaning about every little thing via in game chat.

Am I mad about losing all the time? Hell yes, but i dont lay it on thick in all chat, because I know Im only one person among millions of players, and opinion revolves around the masses in every society, not the individual

TheFakeGomar1 votes

Well you're not wrong...

ty for the meme tho :P!

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