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Does League of Legends Use The Right Approach In Reforming Players?

Best Ekko NA·5/11/2018, 4:21:33 PM·19 votes·10,468 views

People with Alcohol abuse problems, they go to AA. People with Drug addictions go to hospitals and rehab.

Why not create an unsportsmanlike rehabilitation mode for League of Legends?

This could be one or more game session(s) required to be played out by players when they are punished by the system (as opposed to being chat restricted) which teaches them how to be sportsmanlike and the importance of doing so.

It's been studied and proven that punishment usually leads to further crime does not prevent further crime. When someone is put in Jail or Prison, they're even more likely to end up back there after that point. When looking at League, I'd say it's highly likely the same principle applies. League of Legends only uses punishment to correct player behaviors, the same method proven to be the least effective at solving the problem. That is a huge part of why I personally feel that from the beginning of time, all of the "Reform" and "Player Behavior" research that has been done for League of Legends is vastly inaccurate. Riot always points to these for their reasoning, but it's difficult [for me personally] to accept due to being defective at the very core.

Take for example the system in place currently for loot. Riot attempts giving players -Skinner Boxes- so to speak (if you do not know what that means look up B.F. Skinner on Google), and random keys, as a reward for players. The issue from here however is, the reward is more associated with leveling and in-game activity than behavior. Due to this, when a players loses such a reward, it often feels as though there really is no incentive to improve as a player and try to get that back.

  • Random RNG (Keys) --> Reward,
  • Good In-Game Play --> Reward,
  • Leveling --> Reward,
  • Bad Behavior --> Punishment / Lose Reward,
  • Good Behavior --> Nothing.

This system is too intermingled with others already in place, and it's not powerful enough to stimulate someone to take it seriously and improve their behaviors. In order to actually make a working system, these two things need separated completely. There are a lot of different ways this could be achieved through what's already in place with the Honor levels (it's not all bad), but first it has to start with promoting good behavior for players who don't have anything.

When someone is Honor level 0, or 1, whatever it is, they do not have any "reward" even when they are following a good behavior pattern. The thought really turns too "I'm already at rock bottom, it can't get any worse", instead of "Good things happen when I improve my behavior!". It's a long ways back up to Honor level 2. Even getting back up there, nothing good is happening when you get there, so naturally everything after that point is taken for granted. Players can't feel the power of the work and effort at play reaching milestones, it's all just numbers on a screen with little meaning (outside of a different icon on the screen). Some players do feel good about being Honor Level 5, but did they really feel like they were rewarded for working hard? Or perhaps did it feel more a matter of grinding out a lot of games -- with the same behavior they've always had while playing League?

There are just not enough visible signs which help a player understand when they're on the right track, and not any incentives to keep them going. The RNG from Keys + Boxes should be removed completely. Players shouldn't be rewarded for RNG, they should be rewarded for good sportsmanship. The Flair idea for receiving honor is cool and on the correct track, but this should also be extended even further. Players who receive an exceptional amount of honor in any given game (3+ let's say), should be given the keys and/or boxes (instead of randomly).

A lot of games use V.I.P. systems that are pay to win. Why does such a method keep people buying? It works because bigger is better right? The Honor System in League of Legends is essentially a very poor V.I.P. system. As a player, everything is lost when "de-ranking" and it doesn't impact much when reaching high levels (4/5). In other games, having a high level unlocks great features such as EXP Boosts and Shops, but in League -- Uh... Well... You might get a Flair if your teammates are feeling generous, and uh... There's some RNG chance you can get a RNG reward? occasionally you get a small reward?

I'm sure the point can be understood, there needs to be something impactful from actually having a high honor level so that players feel like they absolutely must have it. That might include getting more EXP and Blue Essence for matches with every Honor level, to unlocking different shops where items unique to each shop, can be purchased with both real money and Blue Essence.

At any rate, for now I'm hungry, tired, and can't keep my thoughts in one place so I'm going to cut this off here.

The systems in place do not feel impactful (to me), and I'm not so sure that they even accomplish anything. Is exiling players through bans, instead of giving them better incentives for good behavior, really the right way of doing things? Is there a better way? I personally believe there still is a lot of room for improvement in the Honor system and the punishment systems, but perhaps there is something that I'm missing.

Who knows? :p

43 Comments

HalcyonDweller5/11/2018, 7:16:36 PM13 votes

I think that league of legends does not take the right approach. They could do it better.

  • There should be 24-hour temporary bans that don't count against peoples' records, to give people who tilt severely a time out, as a chance to cool off.
  • The system should implement stealth-mutes, where it detects abusive statements when they are entered into chat and automatically hides them from fellow players. This prevents the whole problem of a player raging at another player and causing that player to get offended and everything devolving into a fight. Or maybe it would work to give players each their own version of this to run that only hides stuff that they tend to overreact to, thus preventing fights without trying to generalize players.

[{quoted}](name=Best Ekko NA,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=KEE3J2xR,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-05-11T16:21:33.066+0000)

People with Alcohol abuse problems, they go to AA. People with Drug addictions go to hospitals and rehab.

Why not create an unsportsmanlike rehabilitation mode for League of Legends?

This could be one or more game session(s) required to be played out by players when they are punished by the system (as opposed to being chat restricted) which teaches them how to be sportsmanlike and the importance of doing so.

This is a fantastic idea. I imagine they could make use of AIs like Elon Musk's DOTA AI to fill the spots on the player's team and provide test cases of various situations in-game for the player to practice keeping their cool.

It's been studied and proven that punishment usually leads to further crime. When someone is put in Jail or Prison, they're even more likely to end up back there after that point.

You're skipping over a huge amount of relevant information when you make these claims. There are a lot of very significant reasons why criminals in the US have high recidivism rates, most of which do not correlate to Riots Player Behavior systems. it's not a useful or relevant comparison to make.

When looking at League, I'd say it's highly likely the same principle applies. League of Legends only uses punishment to correct player behaviors, the same method proven to be the least effective at solving the problem.

This is incorrect, the honor system is a means of using rewards for positive behavior in order to shape behavior. If bans and chat restrictions are the stick, the honor system is absolutely the carrot.

That is a huge part of why I personally feel that from the beginning of time, all of the "Reform" and "Player Behavior" research that has been done for League of Legends is vastly inaccurate. Riot always points to these for their reasoning, but it's difficult [for me personally] to accept due to being defective at the very core.

Considering how much of that research went into creating both the new honor system and the recent punishment system, I beg to differ. That said, I do still think they could do a better job of things.

Take for example the system in place currently for loot. Riot attempts giving players -Skinner Boxes- so to speak (if you do not know what that means look up B.F. Skinner on Google), and random keys, as a reward for players. The issue from here however is, the reward is more associated with leveling and in-game activity than behavior. Due to this, when a players loses such a reward, it often feels as though there really is no incentive to improve as a player and try to get that back.

  • Random RNG (Keys) --> Reward,
  • Good In-Game Play --> Reward,
  • Leveling --> Reward,
  • Bad Behavior --> Punishment / Lose Reward,
  • Good Behavior --> Nothing.

Ah alright it makes more sense what you're talking about now. yeah I'm with you that the way they reward players is kind of weak.

This system is too intermingled with others already in place, and it's not powerful enough to stimulate someone to take it seriously and improve their behaviors. In order to actually make a working system, these two things need separated completely. There are a lot of different ways this could be achieved through what's already in place with the Honor levels (it's not all bad), but first it has to start with promoting good behavior for players who don't have anything.

When someone is Honor level 0, or 1, whatever it is, they do not have any "reward" even when they are following a good behavior pattern. The thought really turns too "I'm already at rock bottom, it can't get any worse", instead of "Good things happen when I improve my behavior!". It's a long ways back up to Honor level 2. Even getting back up there, nothing good is happening when you get there, so naturally everything after that point is taken for granted. Players can't feel the power of the work and effort at play reaching milestones, it's all just numbers on a screen with little meaning (outside of a different icon on the screen). Some players do feel good about being Honor Level 5, but did they really feel like they were rewarded for working hard? Or perhaps did it feel more a matter of grinding out a lot of games -- with the same behavior they've always had while playing League?

I definitely agree here, the honor system doesn't bounce back from 0 fast enough and it doesn't do enough to encourage people while they are working their way back up with honor.

There are just not enough visible signs which help a player understand when they're on the right track, and not any incentives to keep them going. The RNG from Keys + Boxes should be removed completely. Players shouldn't be rewarded for RNG, they should be rewarded for good sportsmanship. The Flair idea for receiving honor is cool and on the correct track, but this should also be extended even further. Players who receive an exceptional amount of honor in any given game (3+ let's say), should be given the keys and/or boxes (instead of randomly).

Keys being given directly is an interesting idea, but I'd be concerned about it encouraging people to form groups to farm keys. Some countermeasures would need to be put in place. Perhaps two votes from premades count as 1 vote when going to a fellow premade, so that a player has to actively try to be honorable towards all of their teammates and not just their premades in order to get points. What sorts of other ideas do you have?

A lot of games use V.I.P. systems that are pay to win. Why does such a method keep people buying? It works because bigger is better right? The Honor System in League of Legends is essentially a very poor V.I.P. system. As a player, everything is lost when "de-ranking" and it doesn't impact much when reaching high levels (4/5). In other games, having a high level unlocks great features such as EXP Boosts and Shops, but in League -- Uh... Well... You might get a Flair if your teammates are feeling generous, and uh... There's some RNG chance you can get a RNG reward?

I'm sure the point can be understood, there needs to be something impactful from actually having a high honor level so that players feel like they absolutely must have it. That might include getting more EXP and Blue Essence for matches with every Honor level, to unlocking different shops where items unique to each shop, can be purchased with both real money and Blue Essence.

Ok I see what you mean about a V.I.P. system. I think that unlocking special shops perhaps with special skins or special sales available only in those shops would be a good solution, I don't think additional EXP or Blue Essence is a viable solution, players like myself who have been playing the game for ages have all of the BE we could ever need, so it wouldn't be incentive enough to make them(us) change behavior.

At any rate, for now I'm hungry, tired, and can't keep my thoughts in one place so I'm going to cut this off here.

The systems in place do not feel impactful (to me), and I'm not so sure that they even accomplish anything. Is exiling players through bans, instead of giving them better incentives for good behavior, really the right way of doing things? Is there a better way? I personally believe there still is a lot of room for improvement in the Honor system and the punishment systems, but perhaps there is something that I'm missing.

Who knows? :p

Overall a good post, but try to keep the less analytical and more disconnected reasoning out of it, looking specifically at the crime and prison comparison.

Have my upvote and a bump. I enjoyed reading your ideas. +1

Chermorg5/11/2018, 4:55:49 PM7 votes

You have a faulty premise:

Good behavior - keys. Keys are NOT RNG anymore - once you hit honor levels they drop at a predetermined rate so long as you are logging in and playing. There is no RNG aside from your appearance because the predetermined rate is not public and it is not necessarily exactly 3 games or 72 hours or something like that.

FilDaFunk5/11/2018, 7:33:03 PM3 votes

When they type something, it should automatically be changed into positive messages for the rest of the team.

YourQQ5/12/2018, 3:39:52 AM3 votes

Some people do want an umoderated mode for adults: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/VPm8RGEZ-offer-an-unmoderated-mode

It's not even like everyone with a chat restriction is actually toxic. People are super sensitive to criticism and very trigger happy on reports. "ggez" supposedly can get you chat restricted. Hardly verbal abuse or anything I'd qualify as actually toxic. People can't even handle banter. I'd love an unmoderated true solo queue mode. I don't want to be in this play pen and I can handle it. Plus, it's not like I can't mute.

I'd rather have the freedom to express myself and mute when others abuse it than to be censored or reported for just having different opinions. A lot of this moderation hurts people who tryhard the most. I think it's part of why NA is a weaker region. Growth depends on criticism and that doesn't feel good but it's necessary. Punishment for speech, barring the absolute worst offenses is just anti-competitive spirit and anti-fun.

KZ Engel5/11/2018, 7:17:47 PM2 votes

banned players will make more accounts and buy more RP. it's just business

Geauxx5/11/2018, 4:39:37 PM2 votes

Very poor comparison considering AA, rehab, and hospitals don't reward you for getting better. The only "reward" you receive is the self satisfactions that only you give yourself, or someone else says "good job"

And your wording for "punishment leads to more crime" needs to be changed to "punishment doesn't deter from more crime" as those are different statements and yours is misleading considering the actual information.

Sources: https://nij.gov/five-things/pages/deterrence.aspx

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378437112002142 <-- (this is more what ifs)

Science hasn't proven anything related to punishment = more crimes because scientist cant run sufficient test to gain worthwhile knowledge. (you'd need to stuff MANY MANY different subjects with different attributes along with what crime)

Why don't people just drop their ego and not feel the need to flame everyone on a game?

FatedDarkly5/12/2018, 4:38:23 PM2 votes

Account are easily banned so that players have to remake their accounts and buy more things. Its a profit driven punishment system.

Mcsquzzy5/12/2018, 5:34:30 PM2 votes

We need a reported flair. Just. Big ol stamp that says I was toxic and this will go away when I get x honors from non premades

Naramiel5/12/2018, 5:45:22 PM2 votes

I think the OP has a good point, and was thinking about whether there's a way to actually implement it. Here's a completely off-the-cuff idea that might or might not make sense: "Shadow Keys".

For ANY honor rank below 5 (so that people don't feel poor performance is being rewarded), players occasionally get "Shadow" key fragments. These are NOT usable immediately, but instead accumulate in your loot. They explicitly say that when you reach Honor 1/2/3/4/5, you will get access to them. This gives people a clear vision of how many keys they could be getting if they had a higher rank, and an immediate (though likely small) bonus when they do finally rank up.

I'm not sure if there are issues with this or not, but it seems like a way you could both (a) clarify that higher Honor gives more rewards, and (b) reward ranking up without it just seem like you're penalizing lower ranks.

dnsup5/11/2018, 6:12:32 PM2 votes

Just a note: AA is known to be relatively ineffective.

Shukr4n5/11/2018, 4:31:49 PM1 votes

"social disturbs" let me call them this way are threated by social community with social structures payed by social taxes.

player behaviour in a private game is another thing. and yourself is the only one that can hurt yourself or save yourself.

Colgate Gator5/15/2018, 3:08:31 PM1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Ekko NA,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=KEE3J2xR,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-05-11T16:21:33.066+0000)

People with Alcohol abuse problems, they go to AA. People with Drug addictions go to hospitals and rehab.

Because they aren't the same.

When an addict goes to AA or rehab, they're going because of themselves, family or someone who cares about them, for their own improvement in their life quality. Here, and in any other game really, it's more of a "either you shape up or you get out of here" kind of deal.

I guess they could post out anger control therapy numbers in the punishment cards if you want.

Cynikul5/11/2018, 5:51:40 PM1 votes

Then you have honor farming, honor begging, honor trading. All of which would vastly increase if their are consistent, known and reachable milestones in place in a shop.

I get your premise of your initial argument and yeah, the AA/NA analogy was a... lets be honest, a not so good comparison, but the idea you're trying to get across does make some level of sense. As a matter of fact, I don't think we have the ideal system in place, but I also genuinely don't believe its going to improve beyond much of where its currently at. This isn't really a problem tied to this game only, its societal. You can kind of change and help morph it, which I would actually argue Riot is attempting to do, but this isn't a change that see's rapid results.

Micronova5/11/2018, 6:18:01 PM1 votes

How often do people even give honors for good sportsmanship?

Any time I've ever seen "X was the most honorable player", it was ALWAYS someone who hard-carried.

Of course, this is in part because you can only hand out one honor per game, so most people will just give it to the player who carried.

Pika Fox5/11/2018, 6:25:46 PM1 votes

Does riot use the best approach? No. Riots system is a compromise so it can work and function in an automaded system. Making something that works far better takes a lot of time and resources, and riots shown over the years to always be working on making better things to try and improve the system.

Modl Ryden l5/12/2018, 2:32:00 AM1 votes

Good behavior is all you can expect from a person. It's not something that's rewarded, as all players who visits these boards wished they could be.

As something well said by a caster, paraphrasing, "A good person will tell you how good they are but people will a tell a great person that they're great."

More or less, you will be remembered for your actions not for what you tell others.

Turtles Are Okay5/12/2018, 3:32:09 AM1 votes

It's not Riot's job to reform people, regardless of the variables.

Duke Dryfocker5/12/2018, 3:42:28 AM1 votes

There is no reform. You go to "can't play for "x" long jail.

THERE IS NO REFORRRRRRMMMM......ONLY ZUUUUUULLLLLLE

Netorare5/12/2018, 9:55:24 AM1 votes

Expecting players to reform themselves and stop being toxic when the game is unbalanced af. Why would they reform themselves? what's the point, would riot finally listen to their playerbase if they do that? No, they won't. Riot can't reform the players, but the players can reform themselves.

Chewbacca Merkin5/12/2018, 3:13:40 PM1 votes

Because that becomes prisoner island.

Stupafly5/12/2018, 3:30:04 PM1 votes

"People with Alcohol abuse problems, they go to AA. People with Drug addictions go to hospitals and rehab."

Are the providers of the drugs/alcohol sending them to AA or rehab?