From 14dban to PERMA-d laying down the law. But is it too much?

Blam·Dec 1, 2017·4 votes·760 views

Clearly toxicity needs to be punished.

Ok, repetitive toxicity needs to be punished even harsher to get the point across.

That all makes sense, what I do not understand is how you go from 14 ban to permanent.

For example I received ALL of my bans from ATTEMPTING to play ranked because the rewards are EXCLUSIVE to anyone that achieves gold.

Ok, so on my main account all my bans were in repetition from trying to grind to gold at the end of the season, on that account I had spent over 2k$ on the game.

I understand that a permanent ban feels good to issue out, or maybe it doesnt! I know it doesn't for any passionate dev.

You can justify a permanent ban by saying the game is "free to play" sure, yes it is free.

Here's a proposition and I beg, nay; implore you to hear it: The current banning needs get rid of permanent banning and replace it with a season ban. AND at the beginning of the next season they start off on the naughty list. If they start off being toxic again they are immediately banned for the rest of that season.

There is all kinds of context, hell; there are police officers who drive home from the bar I fucking know about it. PLEASE rethink your banning system.

A season ban makes a lot more sense than a "PERMANENT stamp this dood into oblivion" ban.

Please consider. Ily; idgaf about my permanently banned account and I also understand that this would be a difficult measure to implement. As a company of creative minds and resources, I'm sure if you think this is a correct approach, you can figure something out.

60 Comments

ModThe DjinnDec 1, 20178 votes

That all makes sense, what I do not understand is how you go from 14 ban to permanent.

The reason this happens is because Riot has discovered in the past that more bans/longer bans do not correlate to improved behavior. When evidence shows that past a certain point more warnings are useless, there's not really a reason to offer more chances.

BlamDec 1, 20171 votes

I've played this game since season one, you're telling me legitimately. Beyond the shadow of any doubt, a SEASON ban will not be better than a 2 week ban-->permanent.

That's just lifeless robotic bureaucracy.

Literally no context: you do NOT pass go; do NOT collect 200$ go to jail.

It's a game my man, humanize a little god damn bit. Tha's what I'm proposing and you are giving me some recycled answer. Please.

BlamDec 1, 20171 votes

OK, I'll meet you this way, how often do you see people making posts on the forums on how they were unjustly banned?

Now: I'm not defending them BUT what that shows is that they DEFINITELY did NOT want their account to be permanently banned.

A season ban will leave them A LOT of time to consider WHY they don't want to be toxic while 14 days leaves them not really caring at all. I don't have the concentration to write a lot on this nor do you have the time to read it, I know you can see the logic though.

ModThe DjinnDec 1, 20174 votes

{quoted}Now: I'm not defending them BUT what that shows is that they DEFINITELY did NOT want their account to be permanently banned.

Yep. If they're not willing to take the steps to do so, however, that is entirely on them.

A season ban will leave them A LOT of time to consider WHY they don't want to be toxic while 14 days leaves them not really caring at all.

If you're suggesting replacing a 14-day ban with a season ban, that's another question entirely. I do not agree that another warning is necessary. If a 14-day ban and a warning that future behavior can result in a permanent ban is insufficient, I feel the issue lies with the person in question not taking the issue seriously enough.

KarunamonDec 1, 20171 votes

how often do you see people making posts on the forums on how they were unjustly banned?

Multiple times a day.

BUT what that shows is that they DEFINITELY did NOT want their account to be permanently banned.

But not enough to put in the effort to stop doing the one thing that would prevent that from happening. The options are clear, simple, and easy to understand. On one hand, you have "stop flaming into the chat box", on the other, you have "lose your account".

Why are these two options unfair or unreasonable? Especially considering the vast majority of people don't have any problem with choosing the first one?

ModThe DjinnDec 1, 20177 votes

{quoted}I've played this game since season one, you're telling me legitimately. Beyond the shadow of any doubt, a SEASON ban will not be better than a 2 week ban-->permanent.

I don't have the data on that personally -- I'm a volunteer moderator, not a Riot employee. I am saying that they have tested longer bans and more warnings in the past, and that their data led them to the system we have now.

I doubt it's "beyond the shadow of a doubt," because there are always exceptions, but I imagine the success rate of extra warnings was so low that it was a net negative impact.

That's just lifeless robotic bureaucracy.

I can't agree that it's lifeless bureaucracy to have a system in place, no. The system already gives multiple chances with warnings along the way that a permanent ban is possible, and at some point issuing the promised punishment seems appropriate.

It's a game my man, humanize a little god damn bit. Tha's what I'm proposing and you are giving me some recycled answer. Please.

I don't feel it's an inhuman answer: a human answer can come from either side in a situation like this, and in this case my answer is more concerned with the individuals who had their experiences ruined by toxic behavior than for those who were toxic despite warnings. Punished players are still able to play the game on new accounts, but I legitimately don't think they necessarily deserve a chance to overturn the punishment when doing so has the potential to simply have them be toxic to other players again.

BlamDec 1, 20171 votes

I also understand, you see four other people having their time wasted and ruined, you dehumanize that person that's toxic though. All I'm proposing is a more justly reforming situation for them, A season instead of a permanent one, I just wish you would tell me why it ISNT a good idea instead of telling me some things riot has said beforehand.

BlamDec 1, 20171 votes

I willing to bet that someone that doesnt care about the game ISNT going to wait a whole year for their account to come back. People that actually do, would. edit:14days-->to a season which is an entire YEAR. that depends, it would be unfair if it was close to the end of the season: in which case; if its past halfway into the season ban into the next season. That's at least better than losing everything, for people that ACTUALLY did invest a lot THAT actually WILL come back. It makes sense, jesus tf christ.

This way, anyone that invested more than they care to admit... can come back.

ChermorgDec 1, 20177 votes

Spending money does not and should not give someone a free pass to ruin games for many other players.

BlamDec 1, 20171 votes

I did NOT say that, let me be VERY clear. please.

ChermorgDec 1, 20175 votes

This way, anyone that invested more than they care to admit... can come back

You heavily imply that your proposed system would greatly benefit players who spend a lot. It doesn’t matter if they spent a lot or not - they don’t deserve to come back and ruin more games.

BlamDec 1, 20171 votes

"Heavily Imply" They don't "deserve" First off And who became the judge and jury of this? Condense this back into what it is which isn't out of the question.

Fourteen days. Anyone has played cod online and experienced toxicity x10 IMMEDIATELY. Fourteen days though. You havn't a good reason as to why it IS effective. People that invest money into your/this game may NOT make much money, that doesn't excuse toxicity; as I said later in the post any game CANNOT thrive without investment of players, why ban someone permanently simply on the justification that it's a "free to play" game?

"WHY is season banning vs permanently banning taboo?"

Also, the entire point of this is that they wouldn't ruin more games if they had MORE than TWO WEEKS to reconsider. Instead of brainstorming: "ok well then when??" A WHOLE SEASON, A YEAR. Anyone that really loves the game will not risk losing that account again. Sure there can be outliers but two weeks to permanent.....PERMANENT. That's FOREVER.

Umbral RegentDec 1, 20171 votes

Yes, you did heavily imply that. Chermorg even quoted the part that heavily implied your idea was just a "get out of jail free" card for toxic players who spent money.

They don't "deserve" First off And who became the judge and jury of this?

Riot, who developed and implemented the system. If you're toxic, they don't want you - so if you wind up being so toxic that it builds up to a permanent ban, then, that's them telling you: "We don't want you here."

Are you really arguing that you want people to get to ruin more games because they spent money?

Anyone has played cod online and experienced toxicity x10 IMMEDIATELY.

This is irrelevant. We're not talking about Call of Duty, we're talking about League of Legends.

Fourteen days though. You havn't a good reason as to why it IS effective.

Well, we don't, because we're not Riot - we don't have all the math and data telling us why the system is effective, we just know that Riot implemented the system, it is effective, and Riot wouldn't have settled on it otherwise.

why ban someone permanently simply on the justification that it's a "free to play" game?

Have you ever heard the phrase "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"? Because that's the case. We're talking about one player versus four to nine others. I'd personally prefer they keep getting rid of the few weeds to keep the garden lively, metaphorically speaking.

"WHY is season banning vs permanently banning taboo?"

It's not taboo, it's just that you're not providing solid enough justification as to why it should be the case, and Riot already has (as The Djinn mentioned) tested giving people extended punishments instead of permanent ones, with unsatisfactory results. Hence, their settling on the short and sweet ladder of 10-Game Chat Restrict > 25-Game Chat Restrict > 14-Day Account Suspension > Permaban.

Also, the entire point of this is that they wouldn't ruin more games if they had MORE than TWO WEEKS to reconsider.

Again, read above.

A WHOLE SEASON, A YEAR. Anyone that really loves the game will not risk losing that account again.

And yet, there are a good handful of examples of people who sincerely love League of Legends who, for god knows what reason, are needlessly toxic. So, which do you think should win out in the argument? Keep them for their "love of the game", or boot them because they're ruining it for several other people who also love the game?

Sure there can be outliers but two weeks to permanent.....PERMANENT. That's FOREVER.

That's permanent for one account. They're free to make more, but the permanent ban is meant to reinforce Riot's point of "We don't want you here". They even tell you with the 14-Day Suspension; "Look, you're treading on thin ice now, your next punishment for ANY reason will be a permanent ban. Either reform now, or kiss your account goodbye."

And, more than all that, you're proposing the whole "change permabans to season bans" thing because you got permabanned for being toxic on your way to Gold. And, I can only assume you're thinking "well, if people get season-banned, they're more likely to reconsider their actions because then they'll be locked out of season rewards!"

Well, here's some issues with that.

If they're locked out of their account for one whole year, they're probably going to think "well, why didn't they just permaban me if I'm so bad..." and create a new account. The cycle of toxicity then either repeats, or, they learn their lesson.
If the point of a season ban is to prevent them from getting season-rewards, they already have a similar system in place. If you get a 14-day ban near the end of the season, you lose your Ranked Rewards.
Locking them out of their account for upwards of a whole year really doesn't communicate that they want you to reform or leave - it's like a permaban, but slightly worse. It's like telling someone "okay, you're being a little shit, so we're going to 'stop' you from playing the game - Come back next year! :D" Which only plays into point no. 1

And, really, the whole concept of "season-long bans" is just so varied that it doesn't really fit in a system of uniform punishment. Some people could wind up banned from playing League for a year, and others would just be booted for a day. That would skew the whole system right at the very end, where it winds up some people are getting way harsher punishments than others, based on something as abstract as timing.

Keeping it as permabans keeps everything uniform and readable; if you're being a dick, you get a chat restriction, then a longer chat restriction, then a fourteen day time out, and then you're gone. Out. Kaput.

And, of course, the system is slightly flexible based on severity of people's actions, but even still it's uniform. Go from no punishments to a 14-day ban right off the bat? You either said something Riot absolutely will not condone, or you were intentionally fucking up the game for everyone and got caught.

So...Rambling over, TL;DR - we may not have a perfectly good reason as to why the system works, but we know it works. You yourself don't have a perfectly good reason why your suggestion would be an improvement, either, so, I don't see why it'd be a necessary change.

BlamDec 1, 20171 votes

I started reading your quotes and realized you weren't doing anything thing other than offering nonsense. You're analyzing random quotes of what I said for no other reason than to say: "tldr he sucks" at the end of your post.

Umbral RegentDec 1, 20174 votes

So, counterarguments = nonsense, now?

You either didn't care to read what I had to say and are dismissing it as nonsense, or you did read it and are calling it nonsense because it's opinions opposite of yours.

And, my TL;DR wasn't "he (you) sucks", its "we as the community may not have the reasons Riot does that the system works, but you aren't providing us any great reason we can't rebut that your change to the system would improve matters."

ModThe DjinnDec 1, 20173 votes

{quoted}I also understand, you see four other people having their time wasted and ruined, you dehumanize that person that's toxic.

I wouldn't say that, no. I don't consider it dehumanizing to say that actions have consequences, and sometimes those consequences will not be able to be overturned.

All I'm proposing is a more justly reforming situation for them, A season instead of a permanent one, I just wish you would tell me why it ISN'T a good idea instead of telling me some things riot has said beforehand.

It's not a good idea because it has been shown that additional chances usually don't work. That's really the long and short of it. Riot tried longer ban periods, and the vast majority of times there was no improvement, and a lot more toxicity as a result of those extra chances.

It's also not a good idea because it encourages people to keep playing, when Riot's official stance is that you are permanently banned when you have proven your behavior is NOT behavior they want in their community. The permanent ban has been stated as a way to say "we don't want you spending any more money, we don't want you playing any more League, and we want you to find another community." They know they can't enforce that (so they don't try), but that has been the stated meaning of the permanent ban.

In short, the goal of the permanent ban is not reform -- the player has already HAD chances to show reform, and has not done so. The goal of the permanent ban is REMOVAL. It is NOT the impetus for reform -- it is the last step when a player has shown no willingness to change their behavior.

ChermorgDec 1, 20173 votes

It’s not dehumanizing. It’s saying “we (Riot, not we the volunteers) don’t want you in this game community anymore”. Riot operates for the greater good - i.e. the majority of players having a great gaming experience. In achieving that goal, inevitably people that are continually toxic to the community need to be removed.

There is evidence to suggest that giving people more and more chances before a permanent ban (in the form of longer chat restrictions, more time bans of a month, two months, a year, etc) does nothing to promote reform in well over 95% of players. It would be improper of Riot to say that the 1% or so of players who may reform after a punishment should justify others being allowed to ruin more games. Let’s say you have 100 players that get a 14 day ban. Does it justify 99 of them being able to ruin 2-3 more games (at least) for 4 more players in each game - just for the one player who may act reformed (but most likely isn’t considering the threat of a permanent ban didn’t cause them to reform)? That’s about 800 players who have a bad day - just for allowing one player to not be permanently banned... yet.

Riot as a company does not have the resources to have a human walk someone’s hand through the process of reform. Riot gives players data on what they’re doing wrong, and it is the player’s job to reform before they are given the well-warned permanent ban.

Under your system, even players that come back from a season ban and are still toxic would only get another season ban. Over the course of 5 years, those same 100 people above would ruin 99 times 2-3 games per year (or about 1000 games total as a low average). In those 1000 games, at least 4 people are getting their game ruined by toxicity that would likely have been prevented had the player been permanently removed from the community with a permaban. 4000 players games ruined, just so 100 people can play for 5 years instead of acting mature and respectful towards others. And this is a lowball estimate that doesn’t take into account the 5 enemy players, or other forms of toxicity, or toxicity that is borderline non-punishable but still bad.. and it still results in each person being allowed to ruin 40 player-games over 5 years. 40 non-toxic players are more important to Riot, the community, and a business in general than 1 toxic player.

TLDR: Data shows and statistics show that players will not reform given more punishments/opportunity - and it is not beneficial to put a system in place for the 1% or so of players that will reform when that same system would result in thousands more players having their games ruined.

BlamDec 1, 20171 votes

Personal feelings aside you left out some math, a variable for instance. That is: this game is an addiction, when someone gets permanently banned they create a new account thus they reform THAT way by not getting THAT account banned so they don't waste their money.

I have spoken to more than a thousand players individually over the years that I've been playing, that's how much passion I have for the game. How many people have you met in your life, zero of them havn't cussed you out or you them?

ModUlanopoDec 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I have spoken to more than a thousand players individually over the years that I've been playing, that's how much passion I have for the game. How many people have you met in your life, zero of them havn't cussed you out or you them?

I routinely have games where nothing is said other than "GL,HF" and "GG". Riot has stated previously that this is actually the norm. Additionally, not a single person on my friends list has ever "cussed me out."

By the way, since we're playing the Appeal to Authority game here, I'm also a Season 1 veteran.

BlamDec 1, 20171 votes

I never said any of them were my friends, I said "I have spoken to." And thats what I meant.

Idc how many friends anyone has inside or outside, if you meet enough people, someone is going to hate you; and you're not going to appreciate that.

The people I spoke to were people I randomly met when no one else was online. I was using the integrated chat rooms at the time. ie: Other people not wanting to play by themselves trying to hang out through some league of lags/ leaguisms/ leagasm/ w/e.

I play with ppl I meet. Whoever they are.

WariosDec 1, 20175 votes

{quoted}

I've played this game since season one, you're telling me legitimately. Beyond the shadow of any doubt, a SEASON ban will not be better than a 2 week ban-->permanent.

That's just lifeless robotic bureaucracy.

Literally no context: you do NOT pass go; do NOT collect 200$ go to jail.

It's a game my man, humanize a little god damn bit. Tha's what I'm proposing and you are giving me some recycled answer. Please.

Yup, it is a game, games have rules, don't follow the rules, you can't play anymore.

Pretty straight forward.

BlamDec 1, 20171 votes

I wish I had a clever metaphor for you. I feel beat down for making an effort in a good direction.

Do you consider yourself to be a man that has always, his entire life; been a man who has followed every rule blindly? Y/n ?

WariosDec 1, 20173 votes

{quoted}

I wish I had a clever metaphor for you. I feel beat down for making an effort in a good direction.

Do you consider yourself to be a man that has always, his entire life; been a man who has followed every rule blindly? Y/n ?

No, I can say I have not always followed every rule blindly, but I can say that when I broke a rule that I was well aware of, I accepted the punishment associated with it and used it as a learning experience.

These are not hidden rules that are decided on a whim, they are well documented, out in the open. You have 3 chances prior to the permanent ban, unless accelerated from extreme toxicity, to make changes in your behavior. More then enough for the average person to take the hint to change their ways.

Magical PlayerDec 1, 20171 votes

Look into overwatchs punishment ladder It really is something to behold 3 punishments= ban Sounds alot like another system I know of But hey if Riot system is bad so is blizzards Granted blizzard added season bans and 3 season bans= full competitive ban granted overwatch seasons last 3 months granted leagues season is 4 times longer meaning if you get to a perma banned stage in league in the course of a season you'd be banned in over watch as well :D

But hey, don't take my word for it

BlamDec 1, 20171 votes

Here's the thing: Where has Riot determined this, how many devoted players have they spoken to? The game is only 8 years old. They've tested season bans? I know they havn't, I'd bet my life on it.

ModThe DjinnDec 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}Here's the thing: Where has Riot determined this, how many devoted players have they spoken to?

Previous seasons, when they tested bans of various length.

The level 20 challenge, where they hand-picked permanently banned players, told them what was causing behavioral issues, and gave them chances to earn back their accounts (with an insanely high failure rate, even among players hand-picked for being serious about reforming their behavior).

They've tested season bans?

There comes a point where the data is pretty conclusive. This is sort of like saying "well, we've tried using five pieces of thread to hold back this rampaging elephant, and we've tried eight pieces of thread to hold back this rampaging elephant, but we haven't tried SIX pieces of thread." Sure, you haven't tested it, but the likelihood of ANOTHER elephant rampage just isn't worth running a test that your data already suggests is not going to work.

ModPeriscopeDec 1, 20177 votes

Why should an account be given yet another chance after failing to reform 3x? So it can fail a 4th time?

You have 2 weeks to contemplate and change your behavior, not counting time spent on chat restriction.

If you're not willing to reform, you shouldn't have the same access to champs and skins that everyone else has.

BlamDec 1, 20171 votes

This is considerable, justified under the context that it is indeed a FREE TO PLAY game. However, this game could not thrive without people that invest money into it. There fore. Explain to me why a SEASON ban without a clean slate moving into the next season isn't enough. Again, a SEASON ban, up from a FOURTEEN... 14 7+7 day ban. That's 14days to a year.

ModPeriscopeDec 1, 20173 votes

My main gripe would have to be that you're still allowing a player who has shown disregard for the rules to keep the things he's worked for and paid for. That seems entirely unfair that they're in the same category as the majority of players that display good sportsmanship. If we're talking money, that sounds unappealing to a new player.

I'd also point out that the point of a permanent ban is "Spend your time elsewhere, your behavior isn't wanted in this community," vs "Well, you did it again, see you next year!" As an extreme example, if you're using hate speech and/or kys and you still get to keep your account, that'd be unacceptable. I'd quit playing league. So you'd still technically permaban a player.

ModUlanopoDec 1, 20176 votes

Here's a proposition and I beg, nay; implore you to hear it: The current banning needs get rid of permanent banning and replace it with a season ban.

Riot doesn't like banning accounts. They go to considerable effort to avoid having to do so.

The reason the punishment volcano is structured the way it is, however, is because toxic players drive away more business than they bring in and due to the fact that people who are going to reform generally do so within one or two punishments, regardless of what those punishments are. Once someone has demonstrated an unwillingness to change, throwing additional chances at them only punishes the people who have to play with them.

BlamDec 1, 2017

I understand this, I offered an alternative.

BlamDec 1, 20171 votes

I understand this, I offered an alternative.

Colgate GatorDec 1, 20172 votes

So, basically, you're accepting that you broke the rules and got punished for it, but don't want to be so harshly punished now that you got the shit end of the stick?

BlamDec 1, 20171 votes

What I'm attempting to do is re propose what the shit end of the stick looks like.

The end of the stick still looks pretty shitty, you can take comfort in that.

Just not covered from end to end with shit.

Paladin of FaithDec 1, 20171 votes

A season ban would actually be a good idea yes. Pernament banned players often make a new account and then continue being toxic. Why wouldn't they, they are already permanent banned anyway, they don't have anything to lose (except for their new account which does't have that much value). A season ban could motivate people to make a new start in their next season.

BlamDec 1, 20172 votes

Thank you for considering what I had to say.

Paladin of FaithDec 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Thank you for considering what I had to say.

No problem. Sadly you won't get any agrees here. People here have zero mercy for toxicity. They treat 'toxic' players as trash that should be permabanned.

Imperial PandaaDec 1, 20175 votes

Or nothing changes and this starts happening.

"Welp, this account is done for the season. I'll get it back though." repeats next season because troll/toxic player isn't afraid of losing the account for good

Paladin of FaithDec 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Imperial Pandaa,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=JtIrk2VL,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-12-01T14:45:25.425+0000)

Or nothing changes and this starts happening.

"Welp, this account is done for the season. I'll get it back though." repeats next season because troll/toxic player isn't afraid of losing the account for good

Losing it for a year is still though. A permanent ban isn't going to reform people because they don't have anything to lose anymore. Since they already lost everything (their account with all their skins, champs, friends, elo etc.)

FalkentyneDec 1, 20171 votes

Vade, I agree with you (I've gamed since the days of Qtest and Kali; most people on this forum have no idea what that even is), and permanently banned playeres don't leave; they simply BUY or reroll a new account and instead of trying to ruin games where players know to /mute all and report, they ruin NEWBIES and BEGINNER'S GAMES. And you tell me ONE new player who knows what the /mute all command is, and I'll sell you a house in North Korea. In the countryside.

Permanently banning accounts for all but the WORST possible infractions is beyond nazi-level silly. The right thing to do is do something that has never been done yet:

PERMANENT CHAT REMOVAL. I don't mean chat restriction.

PERMANENT REMOVAL OF ALL ABILITY TO SEND TEXT IN GAME. Meaning you don't get 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 in game messages to send. You get ZERO.

Want to call that guy who got caught in the enemy jungle the N word? TOUGH. Shout it at your screen! Want to flame your adc? TOUGH. Spit on your monitor at his pixels. No way to be salty anymore, huh?

There. Can't be toxic anymore. And you can still communicate with friends. How? Whispers.

See? Using your brain to think critically in 2k17 isn't hard, is it?

Save the permanent bannings for those that go out of their way to grief without typing.

So how exactly is THIS a bad idea?

BlamDec 1, 20171 votes

ILY, I'm not saying that my alternative was the solution; just better than permanently deleting players from your game. Sure some are really, really toxic; some are just "infected" by the toxicity and think they're just defending themselves.

That's a better solution.

Edit: I mean yours is.. at least more on point than mine. I guess.

It's an issue that's needs attention at the very least.

A trick Riot does when someone comes on the forums, they probably deserve their ban for sure; Riot purposely leaves out the chat from other players. Here's the thing, It's all about preserving other player's experience correct? So then why isn't other player's input/instigation relevant?

Obvious... Justification beyond any doubt with the piers they're attempting to appeal to.

Does that not make sense?

FalkentyneDec 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

ILY, I'm not saying that my alternative was the solution; just better than permanently deleting players from your game. Sure some are really, really toxic; some are just "infected" by the toxicity and think they're just defending themselves.

That's a better solution.

Edit: I mean yours is.. at least more on point than mine. I guess.

It's an issue that's needs attention at the very least.

A trick Riot does when someone comes on the forums, they probably deserve their ban for sure; Riot purposely leaves out the chat from other players. Here's the thing, It's all about preserving other player's experience correct? So then why isn't other player's input/instigation relevant?

Obvious... Justification beyond any doubt with the piers they're attempting to appeal to.

Does that not make sense?

Indeed so. You will never see any court of law in the USA or Europe, where if there are parties involved in a "Crime", where only one "defendant" is there and there are no witnesses, alibis or other parties in a case involving multiple people. You need the FULL STORY before you punish someone, and you punish EVERYONE involved if you do it Riot's way, not just show one person's chat out of context.

The thing about the OLD Tribunal system was, you saw everyone's chat. And if you saw someone was actually pushing a victim over the edge and the victim did NOT instigate, you pressed Pardon. Riot has completely neglected this in ALL of their posts since then. All of it. You get an actual lawyer here (not just keyboard warriors or internet game wizards), they will completely rip a hole in Riot's new system. But the old tribunal only punished the person ON the tribunal, but at least you DID see context. The one thing that EVERYONE begged for was access to game replays with all team chat available. This was never done.

This new system would make Melvin Belli turn in his grave (RIP).

Take away the permanent automated suspension for banned words and flaming. Remove ALL ABILITY TO CHAT PERIOD, ALL, outside of whispers. You can still spam your discord in champion select if you so care. You can still WHISPER to your premades in game. Then save the perma ban hammers for people actually GAMEPLAY GRIEFING. BOOM: PROBLEM SOLVED. RESOURCES FREED FOR fixing problems which are actually RELEVANT to gameplay, rather than trying to police the human race.

History books exist for a reason.

BlamDec 1, 20171 votes

Your first sentence was all ready troll. I guess I have to respect you for putting so much thought process into insulting me? idk well done.

FalkentyneDec 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Your first sentence was all ready troll. I guess I have to respect you for putting so much thought process into insulting me? idk well done.

Are you sure you meant to reply to me here? Where did I insult you?

Please copy and paste and show me. I was clearly DEFENDING you and somehow you said I insulted you and trolled you.

Sigh...this game and this community....NO ONE is truly nice in this game. Either evil, toxic, or white knights who pretend to be nice. So glad I have no friends....i dont need to associate with people who hate me.

Imperial PandaaDec 1, 20172 votes

So how much for that house?

A new player that knows what mute all is... Any new player that has a friend already familiar with the game and tells them about it. [slayer-jinx-wink]

Also, yeah, they kind of tried the chat thing. With indefinite chat restrictions, many players just started doing gameplay trolling instead. They wouldn't talk and instead did toxic things in game.

FalkentyneDec 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Imperial Pandaa,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=JtIrk2VL,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2017-12-01T16:44:11.660+0000)

So how much for that house?

A new player that knows what mute all is... Any new player that has a friend already familiar with the game and tells them about it. [slayer-jinx-wink]

Also, yeah, they kind of tried the chat thing. With indefinite chat restrictions, many players just started doing gameplay trolling instead. They wouldn't talk and instead did toxic things in game.

You didn't read what I said clearly. I said COMPLETE REMOVAL of chat, not permanent chat restrictions. Chat restrictions allow you 5 messages which slowly recharge. Some toxic players will NOT gameplay troll because they want to climb and win.

The ones you then permaban are the ones that DO. Not everyone is the same, man.

An overwhelming percentage of the human race are jerks and buttholes. Laws and punishments and strict restrictions on things keep them in check.

Imperial PandaaDec 1, 20172 votes

I did read what you said, as such I provided an instance of similarity to use as comparison.

Yes, you are correct some will not resort to gameplay trolling, I did say 'many' not 'all'.

By completely removing the chat, you are forcing that players teams to potentially be without communication from a team mate. If one wishes to mute their team mates it is their choice.

Everyone can be different, they should still bare responsibility for themselves though.

Besides, how would one even earn chat back?

Sorin AlucardDec 1, 20171 votes

I believe the problem with the current system is focus. As long as you watch trigger words and dont sell all your items to buy tears, you can continuously throw or mess with people and you likely will not receive punishment.

The focus on chat and the form of punishment (even perma) are both ineffective means to Riot's end. More players just venting (that could be muted) are tossed out of their accounts while they watch trolls skate by. Supposedly its justified cuz the system catches teenagers using "trigger" words to mess with sensitive people. (Not backing being a bigot just criticizing the choice of response as more of a tantrum than solution)

So in the end rather than advocate the almighty mute and encouraging players to ignore the foul mouthed, Riot's opted to use a non human robot to scoop your language out of context and deliver those punishments---------but you cant still mute and be just as effective at dealing with the problem

Instead of keeping the punishment for chat violations to chat punishments, the robot can escalate the ban into a perma----- for most players that were just venting at a troll or overly feeding teammate they might just leave league period. Or they'll be the pissed off stubborn player. So the pissed off player makes a new account (yay new season no real set back). They didnt change or learn any lesson they can just jump right back in doing the same shit. Now, they'll either get banned AGAIN and repeat the cycle, or they'll wise up and troll as a means of griefing instead of calling you a "n****r". What is the result?

Players who aren't really toxic but banter or tell people they need to get better just shut up and help no one---- don't wanna risk the robot getting mad cuz you used the wrong language

Most players have become distrustful of each other, because a report without context is likely to result in punishment. Using chat is more of a ban risk than not using chat so communications are down as opposed to up. If someone is even remotely offended by you you're probably receiving a report

Trolls don't really get punished unless they're obvious ------- KDA is not an obvious indicator because a robot can't review the game and determine you were dying on purpose as opposed to getting stomped

The community has become 20-40 min of "witch hunting the troll" and seeing who deserves reports for using offensive language. There has always been rage in the community but at least when I started playing reports were focused on people's ACTIONS.

ACTIONS like trolling that a human could review and see (regardless of how people felt in the chat) that someone indeed crossed the line and threw the game. It makes no sense that a player can lose their account for typing KYS 100x more easily than ruining 100 games in a row.

I'm all for people not using hate speech but the way Riot has decided to deal with it is utterly ineffective. They've put weight on words over actions and we have ALWAYS had ways of dealing with bad language. We do not however have ANY control over those who ruin games on purpose or take spiteful ACTIONS to ruin the game.

I love this game but I find myself playing less and less and less. Its not because the changes aren't awesome in the gameplay, its because I quit making random friends and competitive rivals. I used to get challenged to 1v1 fights after a bit of banter or vice versa. Sometimes people I fought with on my team became my friends later. Even though there were assholes, we were allowed to be competitive and criticize. We still had chat restrictions if it went too far, not bans for the first time we lost our temper. None of that happens now. Now the only players talking are either petty or about to get banned for whining too much.

Make mute great again. Bring back tribunal

SarutobiDec 1, 20171 votes

The thing is what will Seasonable ban actually do? If anything they'll just tell people its ok to break the rules (any rules for that matter) and it perfectly ok because you just cant play during a season so there is no real consequences! There needs to be something to punish people and this doesnt seem like the right thing to do!

General Esdeath Dec 1, 20171 votes

Yeah no. 1K game chat bans didn't work, season bans just mean trolls come back every year for a month. Perma ban is Riot saying "Don't come to our game, you aren't welcome"