Player Behavior board, Gang Mentality, The Sinner's Burden, Self Fulfilling Prophecies.

Robert G Casler·10/19/2017, 8:29:57 AM·2 votes·366 views

The Player Behavior Boards

The league community has a few issues that are quite major. First off the Player Behavior board has literally no suggestions on how to improve the systems that govern player behaviour only one of 3 threads exist.

  1. I am banned
  2. I was banned
  3. Why aren't they banned

there is a fourth but its such a minority it barely counts

  1. How not to get banned.

The player behavior board has become more of a terminal for what support should be doing and worse off it leads to the other issues with the League Community. I am going to actually adress some of the issues I see with the league community, you may agree or disagree but please do not simply come in and explain "The community is fine you're the problem" That disgusting response doesn't start a discussion it prevents one from happening, all things good bad or indifferent evolve through discussion if you think league is perfect then offer counter points and make an argument don't just use your quick and handy "OH WELL YOU'RE TOXIC SO YOU WOULD THINK THAT" magic bullet and shoot this discussion in the face... now then

Gang Mentality

League as a game is actually focused around group mentality, meta and understanding team objectives. However this extends outside the game, what was a team becomes a group. On the forums there are many groups but in player behavior there are basically a group of people who are the 'arbiters' a group who posts and votes on discussions effectively making them thrive or killing them. I personally have no issue with this, if someone wants to devote time and energy into becoming the lord of the land good for them. The issue is that these people start to amass influence and their votes become more weighty than just one vote. Gang mentality sets in and someone who gets downvoted recieves a downvote on every comment they make, regardless of context. Gang mentality is dangerous because it prohibits free thought and consideration for what is being posted. Not everything in player behaviour warrants consideration or even discussion some things are straight up complaining or should be taken to the support desk. Though as long as gang mentality exists discussions can't because discussions can't survive a gang mentality if one or two people control the sway of the entire board.

The SInner's Burden

There was a story called the Scarlet Letter which told of sinners who were punished with a scarlet letter being woven into their clothes or skin forget which version is more known to let others know that they had sinned. The effect of this was essentially being shunned eternally by the community among other possible outcomes. League has a very bad case of scarlet letter, if someone is ever identified as toxic, then they can never, ever, ever, ever actually be reformed. This would be like if someone served a minimum sentence of jail time and never got off parole. Every single discussion is "be careful, watch yourself" Or worse marked community members are basically persecuted with their opinions devalued and their voices stiffled. League as a community needs to learn to judge based on recent behaviour and displayed behaviour, context, essentially. Reform can not exist in a community where if you are marked you are marked forever unless you undergo some born again level of rebirth. Truth be told most people would rather start a new account than actually reform because of how involved and tedious reforming is, but that is beyond the point that inside the community a marked member can be as 'reformed' by not displaying any toxic behaviour but never be truly forgiven.

Self Fulfilling Prophecies Riot Lyte made a crucial error in his player behaviour philosophies. If you say there are toxic individuals in league or misrepresent the number of non 'toxic' individuals you will inevitably create toxic people. League as a community needs toxic players because they serve as a standard of what not to be, but in recent years that standard has been raised. Before simply not being phobic of any kind was enough not to be 'toxic' then we added negativity to the mix which is completely subjective but again, another conversation. The problem with raising this standard of what a 'non toxic' player is is that people who weren't toxic before become toxic by proxy. They aren't doing anything different from when they were earning honor ribbons and having the occasional bad game. Now you can get reported in 1 game. I Have personally tested this, without using homophobic slurs or racial language you can be punished for being 'toxic' in 1 single game as a level 3 new player. Not that long ago there were four types of bad league players, trolls, ragers, tryhards, and inters. Without going into an explanation those four types have now been replaced by the unilateral 'toxic' player. The issue is that ragers aren't a problem, they don't impact the game anymore than people let them, try hards don't either besides failing misserably. Trolls and Inting players were the worst offenders because they actively made the game impossible to play, but they were hard to punish because how do you determine. So riot switched their focus and started punishing tryhards and ragers because they were easy to identify by giving value to 'negative' players being a burden on the game. I personally play many online games, negative people do not hurt a game, they are a small annoyance but they do not make the game unplayable. At some point riot needs to remember this is a T rated game so we should have developed some form of 'flame' protection at our ages. Too often people are allowed to destroy a game and if you get upset and retaliate you become the target of the system. The report system is broken and abusable, riot will never admit this but too many cases exists to just dismiss it. Without any insight into how the system actually works the best we have is face value being told that it works.

I don't have any examples of how to make player behaviour better, honestly I don't think the board should exist and instead they should replace it with a peer review tribunal style where if someone can get enough Innocent votes a rioter will personally look at the case and see if the punishment was warranted. Human insight is needed to fix this automated system and if people are involved in condemming or absolving a player of their past sins perhaps the community could heal and learn to forgive by looking at things critically. At the very least it would make people feel better if they do auto condemn every person who's ever been toxic once.

I look forward to the discussion that may or may not follow, please keep biases and prejudice out, this isn't meant to flame people who come forth as toxic or formally toxic its an open and honest attempt at a discussion with the issues in league's community and player behaviour particularly.

11 Comments

Mindspeaker10/19/2017, 12:04:40 PM3 votes

op there really is no discussion its simple there is absolutely no justification for being toxic in a video game .

I don't have any examples of how to make player behaviour better

its really easy all you have to do is ...

Don't stress out or verbally abuse your team mates for any reason. Even if they are doing something justifiable wrong.

example : If someone is intentionally feeding and has 30 deaths and you flame them you become just as bad as them.

Ignore them and quietly report them at the end of the match ( no yelling Report x) either

If someone says "you suxxors and are the worst player lol has ever seen"

Do not respond to them

Mute them and Ignore them and quietly report them at the end of the match ( no yelling Report x or muted)

Negative attitude

Don't give up just because you cant "win" learn that the outcome is just the cherry on the sundae sure everyone like to win but you can have just as much fun in a lose as you can in a win wit h the right attitude

**Don't worry about your rank points or the out come / status of your game **... it will go up and down if YOU do your best you will ed up t the correct rank for YOUR sill level..if you are not moving up in rank you have probably hit your skill level cap .

If the only "fun " you have is if you "win" you need to grow as a person and change that attitude

If your not "pro" and not being paid to do this .

Then its simple remember its just a video game even in ranked if both team fight honorable ,don't give up until until the result screen even if it looks like a no win situation on your side be respectful to your team mates regardless of what you think of their skill and learn to have fun during the game then out come is irrelevant.

Again you will win some and lose some....but if you have fun during the losses you will be a lot less stressed

ModThe Djinn10/19/2017, 5:04:47 PM2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Robert G Casler,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=IX3ZPE9l,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-10-19T08:29:57.446+0000)The league community has a few issues that are quite major. First off the Player Behavior board has literally no suggestions on how to improve the systems that govern player behavior...

There have been a few. The problem is two-fold -- firstly, this board is largely self-selective, and draws from a pool of players who have been punished, a pool of players who seek to help others learn about their punishment and reform their behavior, and, sadly, a pool who enjoy watching other people get punished. It is therefore not really the best place to figure out a system that will interact with a much broader range of players.

Secondly, most of the suggestions ultimately come down to "lessen punishments on toxic players" in one form or another. That's great for those players, but I've only seen an actual attempt to build a system that is objectively superior for everyone done once or twice. There's a lot of "this will work 100%," and not a large willingness to acknowledge that subjective opinions aren't necessarily the best basis to build a system around. It makes discussion difficult, especially since tensions here often run high.

On the forums there are many groups but in player behavior there are basically a group of people who are the "arbiters", a group who posts and votes on discussions effectively making them thrive or killing them.

Personally, I'd love to do away with downvotes entirely.

The issue is that these people start to amass influence and their votes become more weighty than just one vote.

This I draw some issue with though. See, "Arbiter" is an official board role currently, and it's people selected by Riot (and by the other Arbiters) because they understand the behavioral system well and are good at conveying that message. Their comments can sway opinions because, almost without exception, they know enough about the system to know WHY something happened -- or to admit when they're not sure. They are subject matter experts in this field -- about as knowledgeable as it's possible to get outside of being a Riot employee who works on this system specifically.

Sadly there's no real way to stop the people who see an Arbiter (or Warden, or Archivist) post and agree with it. Is there a bit too much of a "me-to" effect that hammers down on people who have been punished? Definitely. I'm all ears for solutions there, but I think the fact that there are people the community (or Riot) has decided really know what they're talking about and trust to have good input isn't inherently a problem.

Reform can not exist in a community where if you are marked you are marked forever unless you undergo some born again level of rebirth.

"Some born again level of rebirth" isn't required. Finding outlets for the behavior outside of in-game actions is all that's required. By all means be angry and rant away -- just don't do it in in-game chat.

The community in general could be better about showing compassion, definitely -- especially here on the boards. But I have seen many people being compassionate and welcoming when someone really shows signs of wanting to change their behavior and is willing to put in the work to ask for advice or thoughts. It's when people trumpet around "the system is broken because I got banned" while clearly having problematic chat logs that people get frustrated and start "marking" that individual, from what I've seen.

League as a community needs toxic players because they serve as a standard of what not to be...

This I'll flatly disagree with. If everyone were well behaved we wouldn't even need a punishment system, let alone toxic players.

...in recent years that standard has been raised.

This is true. The system learns from player behavior, and players started reporting other things than major toxicity. The takeaway here is that, when given the power to help control the sort of environment they want to play in, player DON'T LIKE TOXICITY. Not just the major stuff -- they just don't want it around in their games at all.

Riot didn't raise the standard -- the COMMUNITY did.

...honestly I don't think the board should exist and instead they should replace it with a peer review tribunal style where if someone can get enough Innocent votes a rioter will personally look at the case and see if the punishment was warranted.

They sort of do. Riot tends to pop into the rare threads where the community honestly sees something that could be an unjust punishment. Additionally, in situations where logs are provided, the knowledgeable community members (like the Arbiters) are VERY good at providing answers as in-depth (or more in-depth) than Riot provides in support tickets.

More importantly, I've seen players helped to avoid future punishments here, and many players who have legitimately changed their views. That's a powerful and useful tool to help improve the community, and not one I'd be eager to remove.

Soulhavok10/19/2017, 11:50:10 AM1 votes

Damn this was a good read!!!

BlueThingamajig10/19/2017, 3:14:00 PM1 votes

I don't think the board should exist and instead they should replace it with a peer review tribunal style where if someone can get enough Innocent votes a rioter will personally look at the case and see if the punishment was warranted.

That's half the reason for this board. People who are unsure whether they deserved their punishment can post here and ask for second opinions. People who wish to know WHY they are banned can post here. and people will inform them of examples in their chat that would lead to punishments. If people disagree that their actions should lead to punishments, they are informed that it is not their decision to make.

Consider a few threads in recent days: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/wU3A55oj-reported-by-4-flaming-teammates-got-me-a-permaban https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/fdq6H7Em-absolutely-unethical-false-reports-actually-working https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/Q9PfXWUx-ok-riot-please-tell-me-what-on-earth-in-this-chat-log-justified-an-instant-feedback-ban-for-flaming All three of these threads are people who do not seem to deserve the suspension they received. Maybe they do in fact deserve the suspension, but there is at least reasonable doubt.

Human insight is needed to fix this automated system

Human insight is a resource that there is not enough of in the world. The old tribunal was miserably slow, and even ignoring the bugs it suffered before Riot took it offline, it took weeks or even months to issue the punishments.

if people are involved in condemming or absolving a player of their past sins

In 99 out of 100 cases, the only "sin" being condemned is their own chat logs that THEY post. That THEY ask for comments on. "Yes, your chat logs are toxic. Here are things you did that you shouldn't".

And in 1 out of 100 cases, the person in question is lying, and past posts or other game-related sites are used to prove said lies.


There is one thing I particularly agree with in your post. You wrote "If you say there are toxic individuals in league or misrepresent the number of non 'toxic' individuals you will inevitably create toxic people".

I believe League has a perception problem more than an actual toxicity problem. Because people think of League as a toxic environment, they are more likely to see relatively minor offenses as serious toxicity. There is more overreaction than reasoned response. And these are exasperated by the nature of League of Legends (Long-lasting games, unstable equilibrium, team-focused but imperfect matchmaking).

If I were Riot, I would create a video about where toxicity comes from, how to not overreact (i.e. use the mute option), and force every single player to watch it before playing any games. And again if they ever get banned for toxic behavior. And possible at the beginning of each season, as a reminder.

Mindspeaker10/19/2017, 9:44:20 PM1 votes

All three of these threads are people who do not seem to deserve the suspension they received.

disagree they all completely deserved it