Just because people were punished doesn't justify trashtalking them down in here

Eternal Torment··8 votes·812 views

WARNING This is mostly a pure personal rant i really needed to let out because i think people should hear this at some point. I apologize in advancd for unpleasantries.

TL;DR: This Sub-Board exists to help people find their faults and correct them on it, not further shame them for being punished, thus encouraging future toxicity.

Long version... Player-Behaviour as a Subboard mainly exists so People can talk about the Behaviours and moral structures aswell as the Rules concerning said Behaviour. It is defined that people come here to ask what went wrong, how is it their fault and what chances do they have to redempt. In other words, This place was meant to br constructive feedback on individuals.

However, more and more people are just shanking one anothers and direly worsening the cases, Falsely interpreting shanking as critizism.

I believe part of Such comes from an misuneerstanding in the supposted Idea of Hinting, Correcting and giving Feedbacks. And THAT comes from an false interpretation from Active Factors like Riot Tantram. You see, He might be savage on impression but he is really just doing his work as polite as possible. He tells people who REALLY can't face the truth to do it and even when his nerves& Patience are challenged harder than the Yasuo mains are with the upcoming buff, he still remains calm and very constructive on his topics.

However, most people interpret his appearance as an unholy roast-Festival and it ends up very much promoting downtalk and hatred against the OPs. Sure, not rarely is it their fault and they might deserve it, but that doesnt mean we should follow up on it every chance we get.

How do we expect others to better themselves if we are no better either? How is this Subboard Supposted to work if only in the mild cases people consider neutral ground?

If an OP here has trouble seeing it is his mistake then we should build on it and work it through like civilized Human creatures not duke it out like starving sharks.

We should stop being wannabe-savages and actually try to do the first step in diminishing toxicity and not set any and all chance of redemption in flames. PB wasn't meant to be a home for escaping responsibilities is what i think. People who come here want to know what to do better and what not to do next times. How do we deserve not to be banned just like them for throwing it at them that if they are toxic they should leave and what not.

Again, how do we expect others to get better if we cant live up to the picture of being better?

Rant over

18 Comments

Sarutobi6 votes

If people are legitimately looking for help, or help understand why they got punished I'd agree with you. But the fact of the matter is that 9 times out of 10, the people coming here dont want help, they just want to vent, and that is not the point of these forums. Now im not saying we should be toxic towards these people, but if they dont want help they really shouldnt be here. Let alone when people who try to help and give detailed information as to why, they get called out by the TC for "Riding Riot's Dick" or something much more stupid.

The only thing i dislike from the community for those who try to help is when they just leave comments like: "You were toxic", or "You broke the rules" this doesnt help the person understand why they were punished, and while there are mods/other people who do leave detailed information on why people were ban, it would be nice if everyone did it. But we also shouldnt be called out when doing it just because we are pointing out why they were punished!

Pandemic Punch3 votes

Yep! Isn't it ironic how toxic the unpunished people are? lol

Karunamon3 votes

If an OP here has trouble seeing it is his mistake then we should build on it and work it through like civilized Human creatures not duke it out like starving sharks.

If that were the case even most of the time I could see this, but more often than not, the thread starter is possessed of an extremely thick head and will jump through all kinds of mental hoops to justify why telling their shitty team to kill themselves is okay. And that's not counting the times when they straight-up lie (to which Tantram usually comes by and delivers an extremely satisfying cherry-flavored summoner 11)

50% of the time, people know exactly what they did and why they were punished, they just want to come here and bitch about the fact they got caught.

25% of the time, people know exactly what they did and why they were punished, but their understanding of the IFS (it's not exactly intuitive) is lacking and so they don't know why they received the punishment they did.

24% of the time, people don't know what they did or why they were punished, and the people here seem pretty good on explaining how and why they got the justified smackdown they did

1% of the time, probably less, someone got a ban they didn't deserve.

Shacobroyo1 votes

{quoted}

If that were the case even 51% of the time I could see this, but more often than not, the thread starter is possessed of an extremely thick head and will jump through all kinds of mental hoops to justify why telling their shitty team to kill themselves is okay. And that's not counting the times when they straight-up lie (to which Tantram usually comes by and delivers an extremely satisfying cherry-flavored summoner 11)

Honestly the entire community has this crazy borderline personality disorder on this forums. Where they refuse to accept that the rules in place are not moral, but because they are the rules that context or the situation doesn't matter. I'm not talking about extreme cases like where someone tells a teammate they should kill themselves.

Karunamon3 votes

Where they refuse to accept that the rules in place are not moral

We agree on this, but probably not in the way you think. People are allowed to be shitty for far too long before even receiving a token slap on the wrist.

but because they are the rules that context or the situation doesn't matter.

It doesn't. That's not a matter of "morality". Someone else being shitty doesn't give you any reason, morally or ethically, to behave in the same way. This isn't that hard to understand, but people come here from the rest of the gaming world which is, quite frankly, the wild fucking west when it comes to behavioral standards.

"But they started it" isn't a defense. Never has been, never will be. Not even in the real world.

Shacobroyo1 votes

{quoted}

We agree on this, but probably not in the way you think. People are allowed to be shitty for far too long before even receiving a token slap on the wrist.

It doesn't. That's not a matter of "morality". Someone else being shitty doesn't give you any reason, morally or ethically, to behave in the same way. This isn't that hard to understand, but people come here from the rest of the gaming world which is, quite frankly, the wild fucking west when it comes to behavioral standards.

"But they started it" isn't a defense. Never has been, never will be. Not even in the real world.

Not at all, alot of times what I'm seeing is mildly negative behavior that's getting people banned now days. Which in other games would be laughed at if someone sent a report in for the behavior. Mind you riot can do what they want they own the company, but they are not doing anything to solve the real problems, and bans that people consider unjustified will, and have caused negative backlash.

And yes context does matter in the real world. Did the person hit you and were you defending yourself when you hit back? Yes? Then you go free without any chargers. Did someone pull a gun and threaten you with it? Did your life feel like it was threatened, and you shot him to death? You go free. I'm sorry but you just couldn't be more wrong. Look at every single study coming out about bullies. You don't ignore bullies your stand your ground. If you ignore them the problem just gets worse because they think they are allowed to do it. And no amount of telling the parents "riot" will solve the problem if we as a community are not willing to directly stand up to the real problem. The trolls.

Like seriously I wonder what world people live in sometimes.....context always matters in every place at all times in the rest of the world. Especially fucking in our legal systems. Not to mention it's like you don't even grasp the concept of Mens rea. Seriously go learn about the legal system please for the love of all things holy.

Karunamon1 votes

alot of times what I'm seeing is mildly negative behavior that's getting people banned now days.

"Mildly negative" over a long period of time isn't so mild anymore. At that point, you're not being a force for good, you're being a force for tilt. Change your attitude or GTFO.

And yes context does matter in the real world. Did the person hit you and were you defending yourself when you hit back? Yes? Then you go free without any chargers.

At least in my state, two people who get into fisticuffs outside of a ring will both be charged with assault, disturbing the peace, etc.

Did someone pull a gun and threaten you with it? Did your life feel like it was threatened, and you shot him to death? You go free.

This is the 4,296th time someone has compared chat to murder, and this board has become exceedingly good at it. It's a stupid comparison between apples and oranges. Stop it.

And no amount of telling the parents "riot" will solve the problem if we as a community are not willing to directly stand up to the real problem. The trolls.

Keep in mind we're talking about words at the end of the day. In real life, you don't have the option to click a button and permanently dismiss someone from your attention. Here? You do. "Standing up" to someone with words on a screen isn't a thing that exists.

First there was one problem, now there are two. All that you've done is increase the amount of toxicity rather than decrease it. Tell me, have you ever been able to talk a troll into shutting up? I bet you haven't. Not once, not ever.

You know what does work on trolls, every time? Ignoring them. Deprive them of attention and they go away. And make sure to click that [!] button to make doubly sure they go away.

Shacobroyo1 votes

{quoted}

"Mildly negative" over a long period of time isn't so mild anymore. At that point, you're not being a force for good, you're being a force for tilt. Change your attitude or GTFO.

At least in my state, two people who get into fisticuffs outside of a ring will both be charged with assault, disturbing the peace, etc.

This is the 4,296th time someone has compared chat to murder, and this board has become exceedingly good at it. It's a stupid comparison between apples and oranges. Stop it.

Keep in mind we're talking about words at the end of the day. In real life, you don't have the option to click a button and permanently dismiss someone from your attention. Here? You do. "Standing up" to someone with words on a screen isn't a thing that exists.

First there was one problem, now there are two. All that you've done is increase the amount of toxicity rather than decrease it. Tell me, have you ever been able to talk a troll into shutting up? I bet you haven't. Not once, not ever.

You know what does work on trolls, every time? Ignoring them. Deprive them of attention and they go away. And make sure to click that [!] button to make doubly sure they go away.

I'm not sure if you're aware but some of the most negative things in this game come from people who don't even say a word. You're one of those people who believe in micro aggression?

In my state if you feel as though you're at risk of being hurt you can defend yourself. Most states have the same policy on the matter.

I'm not specifically comparing chat to murder, but it's just a very common example that most people are familiar with when it comes to the law. I could pull up any number of laws in the American legal system where context plays a significant role in the outcome, but it doesn't really matter. You clearly are set in the false mindset of two wrong don't make a right.

I will tell you how to counter trolls. You dodge the lobby, or you counter troll and harass them. That's how you really counter trolls. If instead of the other four people on the team doing their best to just ignore the person. They spent the entire game making the trolls life miserable I would be willing to bet my left nut they would be far less likely to do it again compared to just ignoring them.

I would like to point out this is pretty much a street ball game where instead of being able to walk away at any point they trap you inside the game with threat of losing your entire account of you leave because someone on your team is trolling you.

Like you have almost no ranked games these past two season. Like most of the common people on this forums. You have such a skewed perspective on the matter it's pretty much not even worth talking to you. I don't even consider people that don't heavily invest in playing ranked even part of the same community because honestly you're just not. I think we should just split the discussion up to ranked and non ranked. Because of just how much the environment differs between the game modes.

Keep in mind in the real world if you mouth off you will get decked in the face. That's the real truth. People don't go spouting nonsense to people because they know they will get flattened out or just mocked. That's the problem with online games where you randomly generate new teammates that you will never play with again. In the real world you have to actually play with these people and deal with them. In this game you can say w/e you want and do w/e you want to them and they likely will never see you again. So what's the point in actually caring? That's the mentality most people have.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure if you're aware but some of the most negative things in this game come from people who don't even say a word. You're one of those people who believe in micro aggression?

-snip -

I will tell you how to counter trolls. You dodge the lobby, or you counter troll and harass them. That's how you really counter trolls. If instead of the other four people on the team doing their best to just ignore the person. They spent the entire game making the trolls life miserable I would be willing to bet my left nut they would be far less likely to do it again compared to just ignoring them.

Retaliation is not the same thing as defending yourself.

Part of the problem with this 'self-defense' mentality of yours becomes very apparent when two "defenders" face off against one another. Somebody perceives a wrongdoing by the other, and they retaliate, then the other sees that wrongdoing and wants revenge / to punish the other person for it. This creates a cycle of punishing and taking revenge on one another with both parties thinking they are in the right and thinking that the other party is a troll.

You know what this reminds me of? 6th grade. There was a kid in my class who would get pissed at people for simple accidents and then retaliate in 'self-defense' or to 'teach them a lesson' and usually would just trigger the other person to retaliate too. This idiot would just win these confrontations by escalating each time until the other side was unwilling to go further. One time though he pissed off the wrong person and got himself stabbed with a pencil.

Not once did his policy of retaliating in 'self-defense' or to 'teach them a lesson' ever actually work to make people calm down and leave him alone. It always incurred worse violence and disruptions.

Not all people who irritate you are trolls. Some people are tilted, or simply raging. They aren't thinking rationally. Punishing them for their actions by retaliating and making them miserable will not make them think "huh maybe I should improve myself" it's going to make them think, "wow that troll was such an asshole" about you.

Don't be as immature and idiotic as a 6th grader. You're better than that.

Modi2 votes

When it is "mildly toxic" that is getting someone banned, it is not just that game. It is a history of that same behavior, most often far more extreme than the final punishment.

Shacobroyo1 votes

{quoted}

When it is "mildly toxic" that is getting someone banned, it is not just that game. It is a history of that same behavior, most often far more extreme than the final punishment.

Actually not really feel free to go through cases of people recently ban. Mildy negative behavior is getting people banned these days. I think most of you on here are insane if you ask me. The stuff that's getting people banned is insanity. Stuff that four year olds say to each other is enough to justify banning. I believe it's the reason trolls are becoming worse and worse. They created x number of accounts after they get banned just to seek retribution to the bans they feel are unjustified, and your response to these people are follow the rules context doesn't matter in the eyes of riot. While that is the truth it doesn't mean it's a just punishment.

And then on top of all of that you're creating a system where instead of saying what people are feeling in chat (not even bad stuff just minor sarcasm or negative reactions) they are just taking it out on their team in non nonverbal ways. Because they know they will get banned if they say anything not positive at all now days, and here is the kicker the system cannot detect intelligent trolls. You know how easy it is to intentionally upset your entire team via trolling?

Modi2 votes

I do read through the majority of this board, and I have noticed that some have been punished for seemingly minor behavior. Those that have been punished before with a 14 day suspension recently, seem to be the most vocal and visible cases here. When you are on that cliff after a 14 day suspension, you are explicitly warned that further negative behavior will result in the most severe punishment: permanent ban.

That aside, do we really want to equate ourselves to four-year-old children? Are you saying that we, from teenagers to adults, have no more capacity for control than a toddler? I, for one, would prefer to see this community as a more responsible and more respectful group than preschoolers.

As for context, when is it ever ok to yell back at someone yelling at you? The answer is: never. The same applies here. This is especially pointed when you can mute the individual AND report them at the end of the game. That is why context doesn't matter. You yelled, they yelled, but everyone gets thrown out. IMHO the internet has severely diminished the concept of being responsible for one's actions. Many, if not most, of the threads in this very board are people who have said "I didn't do anything wrong" or "I wasn't that bad," then when given information to the contrary, it becomes "But s/he was worse" or "S/he started it." Which brings me back to my rebut about the toddlers, are we no better?

Nowhere does it say in the rules of this community, "you are allowed to speak your mind whenever and however you desire." I have yet to see anyone punished for "minor sarcasm" all the way through a permanent ban. it is most often a more egregious offense occurred prior to the final punishment. That is because punishments aren't just associated to how bad the offense is, but also associated to the frequency of punishments. The same thing happens in many systems of laws.

The best course of action to handle trolls is to give them no feedback. These types of people feed off responses. They love the negative press they receive. While the automated systems do not yet detect non-chat related offenses very well, everything I have seen from Riot (who really have no reason to lie about this) points to them continually working on improving their detection systems. I agree that it is painful (and fairly easy) to have someone use non-chat related trolling to destroy the fun in the game, but this isn't the first game to have a griefing problem. Detecting this behavior automatically is a Hard (TM) problem, which is why it isn't done yet.

Wínters Dawn2 votes

People like to act and be percieved like they are good. They'll put on the "ya toxicity is not welcome in our game, act like a decent human being" mask and act high and mighty on the forums and if you follow them into a game they are either all out raging at people or just low key trolling cause they got mad. People on the internet are all the same 9 times out of 10

Chermorg1 votes

I strongly agree with what you're saying here. I think the biggest issue for me is that we do also want people to have a place to voice their legitimate concerns - as someone always told me "It's okay for others to be wrong". If they think that the punishment system is absolute shit? They can post that, and if they want to tell people "you're not getting unbanned because it's shit", that may be very wrong but it's not against the rules. We can not and should not stifle one side of a discussion simply because they're wrong - that's what we use upvotes/downvotes for is to get the good answers to the top of discussion view.

That being said, there are comments that are borderline that appear. Things like "you deserve the ban" without much context, etc. Those types of comments are also wrong in my opinion as they do not provide any information to the OP about why the punishment occurred or how to contest it/avoid it in the future. However, the comments themselves are merely expressing an opinion - and as I said we should not try and censor peoples' opinions. I've been thinking about ways to encourage players to post more constructively here, and with some new additions to the moderation team coming in the next weeks I think we may be able to make progress on this type of post that is nonconstructive and low effort. The issue is that the problem is widespread and constant and I did not want to try and begin managing it until I thought we had the manpower to handle the posts - if you have a hole in a dam and you patch half the hole but leave the other half open, there's still a hole in the dam.

Basically, I didn't want us to get behind on this type of thing and then have people wondering where the line was. I would like us to draw a clear line and moderate this type of low effort spam around it - but to do that requires us to discuss a little more some specifics. I can't promise any changes will be made that are visible to everyone - it may just be slightly stricter moderation, or something else - but I can promise you that we are talking about things like this and are constantly looking for ways to improve the boards :)

Shacobroyo1 votes

{quoted}

I strongly agree with what you're saying here. I think the biggest issue for me is that we do also want people to have a place to voice their legitimate concerns - as someone always told me "It's okay for others to be wrong". If they think that the punishment system is absolute shit? They can post that, and if they want to tell people "you're not getting unbanned because it's shit", that may be very wrong but it's not against the rules. We can not and should not stifle one side of a discussion simply because they're wrong - that's what we use upvotes/downvotes for is to get the good answers to the top of discussion view.

That being said, there are comments that are borderline that appear. Things like "you deserve the ban" without much context, etc. Those types of comments are also wrong in my opinion as they do not provide any information to the OP about why the punishment occurred or how to contest it/avoid it in the future. However, the comments themselves are merely expressing an opinion - and as I said we should not try and censor peoples' opinions. I've been thinking about ways to encourage players to post more constructively here, and with some new additions to the moderation team coming in the next weeks I think we may be able to make progress on this type of post that is nonconstructive and low effort. The issue is that the problem is widespread and constant and I did not want to try and begin managing it until I thought we had the manpower to handle the posts - if you have a hole in a dam and you patch half the hole but leave the other half open, there's still a hole in the dam.

Basically, I didn't want us to get behind on this type of thing and then have people wondering where the line was. I would like us to draw a clear line and moderate this type of low effort spam around it - but to do that requires us to discuss a little more some specifics. I can't promise any changes will be made that are visible to everyone - it may just be slightly stricter moderation, or something else - but I can promise you that we are talking about things like this and are constantly looking for ways to improve the boards :)

Separate ranked from non ranked I would be willing to wager that would shift a lot of this very casual mindset. Make it require you having to have played like IDK 20+ ranked games to actually chat in the ranked player behavior section. The people that don't play ranked vs those that do are entirely different player bases.

If you ask me I think they need to have two separate report systems working for ranked and non ranked.

Chermorg2 votes

I don't think separating ranked from non-ranked on the boards is a good idea. They are not separated in the client, punishments can draw on games from either game mode. As it should be - ranked is merely "how do I rank against others", it is not designed to be a tournament level competitive game. The attitude in ranked and normals should be the same, and in neither game mode is flaming, harassment, etc. okay. If someone wants to play ranked casually just to see how they rank up against others, or to play with their friends, that's acceptable to Riot (and quite frankly I agree with that).

I think the boards should be centered on Riot's systems, and as there is currently no supported difference between ranked and normal gameplay, there are not different boards for ranked and normal gameplay (or for behavior, or for bugs, etc).

nerak231 votes

I think this thread is getting nowhere fast and becoming a verbal boxing match.

To start with LAWS don't matter in this game contexts because we all agreed to the tOS.

Mild consistent negative remarks in game hurt the gameplay and make the games no fun. This is against the rules and does get punished.

As for helping people on this board, of course that is what it's meant for. However there are a lot of players that ask for help but really just want to argue until they get someone to agree with there misbehaviour.

Then there are trolls who come on to spread disinformation just to harm the game, misinform players to get them into trouble in game.


I'm not saying comments like, enjoy the ban are acceptable but they are understandable sometimes.

A few more things Never harass the troll in game it gets you no where.

What others say to you in games matter to you and the other players who read it. Doesn't give anyone the right to be toxic back.

And throwing around a poster rank or such history is harassment, take me for instance this account is almost never used other then at times to get current and help others. This is not my only account just the one I started posting with, so looking at that isn't going to tell you anything. players can understand how the system works w/o being good at playing

Finally IMO Riot should be harder quicker and stop allowing poster to out right lie and abuse the staff.

I apology if I offend anyone as I'm not pointing at anyone poster.

Have a great day.

Telephone Booth1 votes

It's the same concept that should be applied to everything, and the Bible holds it as a high quality. It's not judging people. It's having some understanding. I'm not a religious person, but I learned the value of the messages that the Bible teaches a long time ago. It's hard to follow them, but if we all did, the world would be such a better place. And it must be applied everywhere... even places you might not think.

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