When they mention your rank ...

Cancer Puppy·Jul 31, 2017·30 votes·2,737 views

If you're having a conversation or trying to reason with someone, and out of nowhere they bring up your rank (whether or not you're doing better than them) it usually means they have no counter-argument or anything to say in response, in my opinion.

Was trying to tell this Zed that he counters Twisted Fate to an extreme level, and that the TF was doing all he could to defend himself. He was bashing TF for a full 15 minutes on how bad he is, and that he should refund his skin. He responds with "Lol you're Silver 5, stop talking Teemo."

Has anyone else had moments like this?

73 Comments

SchmidttyGamesJul 31, 201713 votes

Another persons rank on a chat room account means very little. You can't judge a persons experience based on that kind of innaccurate metric to begin with, let alone rely on it as an argument. Rank is subjective at this point due the the nature of the beast and how its graded. It's in the same category of "complaints" as using someones "K/D" while purposefully omitting the "A" to try to bash someone.

But let's be honest about TF. He is kind of garbage right now. He hasn't aged well through Season 7 at all and feels somewhat useless all around.

KartagiaJul 31, 20173 votes

No, you cannot as even challengers use personal kda as metrics in team game.

TwitchInMyPantsJul 31, 20174 votes

They don't care about KDA as much as kill % participation and death count. KDA also doesn't say shit about objectives, damage, healing, or any other metric of your presence.

KartagiaAug 1, 20171 votes

Oh.. You should then check my posts where I state this out and how I am attacked due my poor K/D/A all the time. And moderators does nothing to stop those 5 people doing this harassing as they are friends of Deep Terror Nami.

Deep Terror NamiAug 1, 20172 votes

Nobody is being allowed special privilege to harass you. If you are being harassed, report it, and you can come to the Moderation Discord and do so personally to provide context to your reports if necessary. Since you are saying this is happening, I encourage you to come visit us and point them out specifically so we can take care of it.

Azrael JiracoJul 31, 201712 votes

I think it depends. Some people just use it as a form of flame which is bad.

Most use it because they're tired of low ELO players giving them bad advice every single game. You're right, every player's opinion counts. But when you're Diamond and you get called out by a Silver player in every damned situation, you'll tire of them just like the rest of us. Calling them out for their rank doesn't mean we don't have a valid response, it means we can't be bothered to respond.

Both parties are human, neither party is righteous.

KartagiaAug 1, 20172 votes

if low elo player advice is bad, they could tell why it is instead of attack on low ranking and stating this is the divine dogma - do not challenge it.

Can you tell me why you feel so offended? I bet it is due the fact you cannot counter my argument with facts, but feel annoyed somebody say something contradicting your only way of playing. Your divine dogma. The only way you see possible and want to force others follow.

Honestly, I think reason why you are offended, is the fact some low elo player showing high understanding of game destroys the false image that ranking is sign of skill. That higher ranking indicates better understanding of game. And by destroying this I destroy the false sense of competence, and you hate it. You truly hate it.

Even Riot Support admit this. Support person admit after long discussion that league position is no sign of skill. It is just achievement. And I can mathematically prove there is very high probability that highly skilled player stays in bronze. This is due the boundaries of matchmaking, which Riot games have tried to hide. On season 2 they did not. During that time some devs divulged unfavorable details of matchmaking like the fact MMR matching allows estimated win chance of 75% to one team over another. And the fact is league system did not change matchmaking at all. Thus there is good chance you get often matched unfavorably, thus your chance of winning is not 50%. FOr those who yell but on average, I have to tell you that average function becomes accurate on sets of tens of thousands of games. Probability math is a bitch. On smaller sets results vary way more.

Thus MMR bashing is due the fact my facts prove that emperor has no clothes. In this reference it proves the image of rank people want to uphold is false. And people on higher ranking hate this, as they have build their boosted image due their ranking. I understand this, but I do not accept it, as it makes community more toxic, and prevents enjoyment from people who can never reach higher rankings. Why enjoyment of best 10% is so much more important than majority?

I would like to see community revert back to state where the level of challenge gave the limits of play. Where trying different and thus giving team mates chance to challenge and learn was important. Time when losing party stayed on end game lobby talking what happened, and how they might improve in future. When wining party did not bash losing party but gave honest and good advice.

If everybody would do that, META would never change. I cannot understand the divine faith in authority and total ignorance of facts.

Azrael JiracoAug 1, 20172 votes

Everything you just wrote indicates that you misunderstood my post entirely. I'm not butt hurt nor insecure. I do not consider low ELO players insignificant.

And that non-sense you're posting about ranks and MMR is just plain silly.

Leaf on BushAug 1, 20172 votes

Even Riot Support admit this. Support person admit after long discussion that league position is no sign of skill. It is just achievement. And I can mathematically prove there is very high probability that highly skilled player stays in bronze.

You really have to differentiate between skill and knowledge. Knowledge can be copied, there is enough data available. You can come very far by copying without actually having to understand why you do these things. But you can't participate in a discussion like somebody who does things, because he understands the mechanics behind.

Always building item A is fine, if you know it works, you don't have to know why. But when you start lecturing players it becomes a problem. Then the only thing you could say, while still remaining honest, is "It seems to work well for a lot of players so I am doing it too and it worked for me as well".

KartagiaAug 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=D Kayn goes BOOM,realm=EUW,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=GT8ZObph,comment-id=000d00000001,timestamp=2017-08-01T11:38:34.731+0000)

You really have to differentiate between skill and knowledge. Knowledge can be copied, there is enough data available. You can come very far by copying without actually having to understand why you do these things. But you can't participate in a discussion like somebody who does things, because he understands the mechanics behind.

Always building item A is fine, if you know it works, you don't have to know why. But when you start lecturing players it becomes a problem. Then the only thing you could say, while still remaining honest, is "It seems to work well for a lot of players so I am doing it too and it worked for me as well".

Tell me.. Why it becomes a problem when I give you factual reason why it works, and only factual response I get but it is not used without once people telling me why my reasoning is wrong, but they attack it because I do not support their limited view based on minmaxing of personal score and damage.

Every time I am attacked, nobody attacking me ever touches my observations of the game as they do not want to admit my skill coming from thousands of games I have played. THey do not want to admit that someone who can understand the game well is stuck in bronze, as it violates their belief that league system is system based on skill, and getting out of bronze is proof of skill.

I am sorry, but stating facts of score gets people mad, when they see score as proof of skill. I do not see it like that, as score has no information value on itself. You have to check the game events to see it. And trust me, I have thousands of comebacks with win while I have bad score, as score does not contain single objective. You can win with 0/20/0 easily, if you have team who focus on tearing down towers, and dying while doing so. This is fact, but it hurt feeling of people who want to believe their aggressive pvp focused play is only way to go. I have constant games in which people argue that they need kills. No, there is only handful of champions who need kills. They need gold. And even those champions who do need kills, can get stacks from creeps. Thus you do not need kills of enemy players, but kills of creeps.

Leaf on BushAug 2, 20171 votes

Like I said, there is a diffrence between knowledge and skill. But why does that even matter for this topic?

KartagiaAug 2, 20171 votes

Because you make false assumption there cannot be skilled player on bronze divisions. This is simply mathematically inevitable due the fact league system is zero sum game: every time somebody gains LP someone loses it. Only way to climb is face only people who are less skilled you are. This is not possible due numerous people ignoring totally eula restriction not to use accounts owned by others, as following that rule would prevent them earning real life money with league. This includes mercenaries elo boosting by playing on accounts of others as well as those smurfs who build accounts up in ranking and sell them. There is vast market of LOL accounts RIot refuses to investigate on various sites, and RIot does all to deny their existence. Manufactured innocence.

The third kind of players ruining the system are those who elo boost without breaking eula, but breaking summoner's code, as getting down to bronze in order to play with clients requires you intentionally lose to drop your elo. Then they duo with clients until clients are out of "elo hell", and again intentionally lose to drop back to bronze for next client. Again there is numerous sites where people sell this kind of services for real money.

Leaf on BushAug 2, 20173 votes

I am not interested in debunking your false interpretaion of the ranked system.

I suggest you start your own thread instead of forcing your own off-topic discussion on random posts.

KartagiaAug 2, 20171 votes

Again, you debunk it without even touching the topic as you believe ranking system is based on skill, while the system proves otherwise. And there is no way to counter belief on wrong things like Creationists, Trump followers, and climate deniers prove in USA.

I am sorry, but I do not want you to debunk my comments, but prove ranking system works like you believe.

Leaf on BushAug 2, 20171 votes

Again, you debunk it

No won't even try, because I was talking about the meaning of elo bashing in the middle of a discussion.

Just make your own thread if you don't want to talk about that.

Azrael JiracoAug 2, 20171 votes

You said it yourself. To climb, you have to be better than people at your current level. Therefore, you get better and then you climb. Then you get better again and you climb again. It's working intentionally. You can't climb by spamming games and not improving.

Where, in this example, can a skilled player get stuck in Bronze, especially over multiple seasons?

You're not improving because you absolutely deny that you need improving.

You like maths? You're roughly in the bottom 14% of all ranked players. That means roughly 86% of players have managed to rank higher than you. That's not an attack, that's a fact. Are you claiming that you are insanely unlucky and are better than, say, two thirds of the ranked player base?

If you don't think you're better than at least 50% of the player base, then how can you say you are skilled?

I mean, you bring up law of large numbers needing a source of tens of thousands of games to be 50%. It doesn't need to be that many to be in the region of 45-55%, which would allocate you an ELO bracket. Also, you've played over a thousand games in season 4, 5 and 6. You're about a thousand games in season 7. You have plenty of games to allocate you a very accurate ELO bracket. Again, these are facts.

During all of these seasons, your win ratio has been 50% give it take 2%. Coincidence? That's a pretty damning figure to your argument.

And if you deny then, you are denouncing facts that oppose your divine dogma. This makes you a hypocrite.

drops microphone

KartagiaAug 2, 20171 votes

FOr math part: I am one of the players with enough games to have statistically sound number of games. And your way of using math is not using math but abusing it without any understanding of it. Why it is so hard to grasp that intentional feeders do exist. And my personal skill cannot win game alone, when I am matched with way less skilled players who have so much pride they are insulted if support appears to have higher impact on game they do. I just lost game due 3 players going intentional feeding and lose game, and I have no faith none of them gets punished regardless their constant rules violations no both chat and on game, as the system does ignore single reports. I know they are not literally ignored, just de facto ignored as they have no value towards punishment due the frequency of report affecting the chance case is handled by Artificial Stupdity sytem.

I am wondering why all of you spend so much time attacking my elo - whihc is by the way against FOrum rules as MMR bashing is prohibited - and not giving single argument countering my analysis of the game and system.

The fact is I cannot win alone. And there is plenty of players who does anything to ruin game if support is playing better they do, or support is not doing what they tell support do do. They totally ignore suggestions of support for cultural reasons and total lack of respect towards supports and their knowledge on league of legends.

Azrael JiracoAug 2, 20171 votes

There you go again; any objection to your reasoning is an attack or ELO shaming. There's no shame in being Bronze. I was stuck in Bronze myself during season 3. The difference between us is that I knew I wasn't skilled enough at the time and learned to improve. People don't automatically get out of low ELO on natural talent. They also need time, training and an open mind to change.

That's why your reports are never/rarely headed. No one has attacked you!

I'm not in this discussion for my benefit. I'm in it due to a futile hope that I can help you change your mindset. Folly, really, which I already knew.

I will stop wasting both of our time. Just know that I genuinely feel sad for having failed you.

KartagiaAug 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azrael Jiraco,realm=EUW,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=GT8ZObph,comment-id=000d00000001000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-08-02T10:19:09.345+0000)

There you go again; any objection to your reasoning is an attack or ELO shaming. There's no shame in being Bronze. I was stuck in Bronze myself during season 3. The difference between us is that I knew I wasn't skilled enough at the time and learned to improve. People don't automatically get out of low ELO on natural talent. They also need time, training and an open mind to change.

That's why your reports are never/rarely headed. No one has attacked you!

I'm not in this discussion for my benefit. I'm in it due to a futile hope that I can help you change your mindset. Folly, really, which I already knew.

I will stop wasting both of our time. Just know that I genuinely feel sad for having failed you.

Telling simebody.does not know or understand the game, because he is bronze as only reasoning is shaming by mmr. Ypu do this as you cannot counter the argument.

Azrael JiracoAug 2, 20171 votes

You spend a lot of typing but not much time reading. Why are you talking about KDA? We didn't bring that up. You're arguing with ghosts. We're not angry and we're not attacking you.

And why do you get to dictate what 'facts' are and denounce what others think 'facts' are? It sounds to me that, in both cases, they're just opinions.

If your opinion differs to someone else's, does that always mean they're mad and you're a victim?

Lothàrs EdgeAug 1, 20174 votes

Low elo advice IS ALWAYS bad. A true bronze player should not be giving any tips 95+% of the time.

(This excludes smurfs).

People in low elo who want advice are the ones who are asking questions on how to improve. They are not the ones who are telling players who are better than them, what to do.

There is no argument against someone who thinks they know better than how they're performing. When you're this big in your mind, but not that big in reality, there is no valid response. That type of mentality is bulletproof against any reasoning.

I think you are sorrily mistaken by saying that people are offended or scared. No, more like we can't even be bothered to deal with just stupidity or ignorance.

SiffLortJul 31, 20177 votes

Interestingly enough, only low elo complain about this. Why can't this be a good argument? You are in bronze/silver, you suck at the game. What's the big issue here? If if bothers you, get better and climb higher. Besides, I would laugh my ass off if a silver 5 told me about countering anything.

Arsenic SulfurJul 31, 20175 votes

Yes, being higher ranked usually means one has a better understanding of the meta as they'd likely milked it for all it's worth. If they've one-tricked up to the top they usually have the last word.

HOWEVER, just because one is at those lower ranks doesn't mean they're total dipshits that aren't allowed to contribute to the discussion or that their points are immediately invalidated. And the rank card is usually pulled when someone doesn't have anything else to add so if it really is a valid argument a good portion of the vocal minority we got going on here certainly killed its reputation.

SiffLortJul 31, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arsenic Sulfur,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=GT8ZObph,comment-id=00030003,timestamp=2017-07-31T16:52:44.548+0000)

HOWEVER, just because one is at those lower ranks doesn't mean they're total dipshits that aren't allowed to contribute to the discussion or that their points are immediately invalidated.

Stop being delusional, bronzies and silvers should not have a saying in matters of balance or anything gameplay related since they barely know how to play the game. It's not surprising that your kind of statements comes from low elo and even unranked in your case.

ninjaroxasJul 31, 20172 votes

we can tell you are just trolling now, no one is this dumb

SiffLortJul 31, 20174 votes

I'm sorry if I hurt your bronze feelings, but the fact is, guys in bronze can't play for shiz. Deal with it.

Just Blame JennyJul 31, 20174 votes

Dude, you're plat 3. Chill. That's barely above average.

If you had all the answers, you wouldn't be plat 3 -- you'd be challenger. You've a long way to go before insisting that anyone that disagrees with you must be wrong.

SiffLortAug 1, 20171 votes

I used to be diamond, you are sitting in silver. Do I have to add anything else? Besides, please quote me specifically where I said I had all the answers. All I've said, is that we should not value gameplay opinions of low elo people, like you for example. Anyone sane wouldn't see a problem in that, but I guess people in low elo get butthurt so easy over the fact that they can't play, which is a fact.

Just Blame JennyAug 1, 20172 votes

Honey, I'm not butthurt. I'm aware that I'm bad at the game and have much to learn.

The only difference between you and me is that I'm not delusional about that fact.

DuskDaUmbreonJul 31, 20176 votes

There's very, very little situations where rank could influence a discussion. Only one, actually. And that's when dealing with rank-specific experiences. Anyone is qualified to talk about balance. However, not everyone is qualified to talk about balance at every rank. I wouldn't trust a pro to balance low ELO any more than I'd trust myself to balance high ELO, because neither of us know enough about the other's position (which is why Riot has, themselves, said they also have low-tier players on the balance team in addition to high-tier ones!). That's the only time where rank actually matters in a discussion, as it actually pertains to the quality of the information.

When someone has to bring up rank in the middle of any other discussion, however, they've proved that they have no real argument. They're simply relying on name-calling at that point. ~~(And, as they're not politicians, that's not a valid argument).~~

Besides, what many people fail to see is that anyone can figure out hidden OP builds. As an example: I figured out Essence Reaver on Ashe being good well before it became popular (and subsequently nerfed).

TEA Nietzsche Jul 31, 20173 votes

{quoted}

There's very, very little situations where rank could influence a discussion.

Almost every discussion is influenced by rank, atleast the way discussions are had on the boards. If people would stick to statistics then it'd be fine as long as they'd interprete them properly. But when people talk about matchups they are generally talking based on their experience - and that depends A LOT on rank.

Of course that doesn't mean that people are necessarily wrong when they are low elo or that the one with the higher elo is always in the right. But as a tendency I think it should be obvious that people with lower elo are wrong more often. So if you think that you are right because you are statistically more likely to being right then you are an idiot.

Besides, what many people fail to see is that anyone can figure out hidden OP builds. As an example: I figured out Essence Reaver on Ashe being good well before it became popular (and subsequently nerfed).

Dopa talked about this, the best players are not generally the biggest innovaters, they are just the ones who "steal" the most successfull experimental builds. And this makes sense, with experimental builds it's a trial&error thing after all.

ModWulf HelhammerJul 31, 20173 votes

Not sure I really understand what your poll is asking...

But I do agree that rank-naming being the be all-end all argument is childish and just idiotic.

StoryDuckJul 31, 20173 votes

This normally comes up when two opposing ideas clash and no matter what logic is thrown at them they continue to say the same thing. This is a phenomenon repeated in politics, science, religion, and any other facet of life where someone has a different opinion. The bottom line is that one person is wrong and the other is right (there are often times both can be right/wrong). No one is willing to admit they are wrong.

When it comes to rank is an indication of how well you have mastered the game. If a plat+ said that Ashe does better as a champion building IE but a bronze players says Triforce is better because they win more with it then who is right? The bronze player doesn't agree with any stats, examples, or logic as to why IE is better. So the plat or higher rank player tries to explain that they have greater experience and should be trusted by giving rank.

Saying that diamond+ rank doesn't matter compared to a bronze/silver player is like saying you should trust an 8th grader over a Climatology Major with a PHD on how our weather works. This isn't to say that lower rank players opinions don't matter but we cannot and should not balance LOL around the playing ability of bronze/silver and in most cases gold players. I would also add that some high rank players wield their rank like a blunt club and try to beat people over the head with it. it should be given as a means to trust their opinion and not as a justification of their logic. If logic was given and ignored then all they have left is to give their credentials as proof of their understand of LOL.

Leaf on BushAug 1, 20172 votes

If you know that you are right and you can explain why, then there is literally no reason not to do it.

And keep in mind that they do not simply mention your rank, they need to know you rank to begin with,which means they will start digging into your profile first, maybe even sniff around in your match history to say "oh you did bad in this ONE game!". They invest a lot of time just to disqualify themselves from the discussion.

Azrael JiracoAug 1, 20171 votes

Well, there is one reason not give a structured response. I have the right to remain silent. I like communication in terms of strategy but if I think a conversation/argument is a waste of time, I'd rather ignore it.

Also, with things like Lolnexus, digging for player info isn't so hard when it's just a glance away. Not including the match history example, that WOULD be going too far, haha.

Leaf on BushAug 1, 20171 votes

Oh but of course there is one reason, arrogance. But this kind of attitude again has no place in a discussion. Either you dicuss or you don't.

If you choose to ignore it ok, but we are on the boards here and I see this behaviour a lot and this is a reflection of how they communicate ingame and it makes no diffrence where you discuss once you started.

dont zhonyasAug 1, 20172 votes

rank dont mean nutin

zPOOPzAug 1, 20172 votes

so....rank does means something?

Azrael JiracoAug 1, 20171 votes

You did it! You deciphered it. Now, make sure no one else discovers the secret. ;)

zPOOPzAug 1, 20171 votes

now gimme honors!

Azrael JiracoAug 1, 20171 votes

Here y'go!

gives honors

Sraeg2013Jul 31, 20171 votes

I can think of one valid reason for argumentum ad rankum,

When a person who is clearly a 3+ years straight Bronze player is trying to teach others how "high elo" looks like.

Leaf on BushAug 1, 20172 votes

No, if the bronze player is talking nonsense you should easily be able prove that he is wrong.... with reason, or else you are not any better. xD

And this would actually be helpful as opposed to just telling him to shut up.

Sraeg2013Aug 1, 20171 votes

You are assuming everybody is open to counter-argumentation.

Leaf on BushAug 1, 20171 votes

If he is not open then you just leave... telling him he is bronze changes nothing and it's not even related, there will be other players even in bronze who would try to understand.

It's just ignorance and trying to argue with such a person is a waste of time, no matter his rank.

Sraeg2013Aug 1, 20171 votes

It's not a waste of time really.

They tend to embarrass themselves so much it's too funny not to laugh.

Lothàrs EdgeAug 1, 20172 votes

Wait, are you saying that reasonable people should sit down and have a reasonable, thought-provoking discussion in a game of League with a random stranger that probably doesn't give two-shits as to what comes out of your mouth (or fingers)?

If a bronzie is talking non-sense in an asshole-like manner, then yeah, people are going to superficially say "lol stay bronze" because there's no point in putting actual effort into teaching someone who doesn't want to learn.

This would be helpful if the world was a magical place and people listened to each other all the time, even on the internet. But that isn't the case. We're all know-it-alls when we're behind the screen.

The point of saying "stay bronze" or something alike to that is not to better or alleviate the situation. It's to deal a blow to their ego and piss them off.

Azrael JiracoAug 1, 20171 votes

Cruel... but it gets the point across better than I could.

Leaf on BushAug 1, 20171 votes