Boards›Player Behavior

"KYS" Is NEVER Acceptable, And Is Your Responsibility

Squeebs theGreat··12 votes·2,928 views

Dear Riot,

I have a problem for you, but I also have a solution. I ask that you be patient as I present both with some stuff in the middle. TL;DR version included at end.

Whoever is reading this - have you ever been told to kill yourself? Have you ever lost a friend or loved one to suicide? What if someone told your child or spouse to do it? What if anyone who was ever told to do it listened?

Have you ever told anyone else to do it? Same question. What if they did?

Let me make clear that I hold everyone accountable for their own choices. Nobody is ultimately directly responsible for the act of a suicide except the one doing it. However, there are malicious people who derive pleasure from inflicting their pain on others and ignorant people who don't know the pain they inflict; all of them contribute to the act by supporting or encouraging the act. Even when someone is told to do such a terrible thing and doesn't, they have that influence in their life for that brief period - the influence of feeling like another person, or worse, other people, want you dead. As in "real life person has ceased to breathe, eat, sleep, think, love, feel, dream, desire, etc. and it might have even been messy and was certainly traumatizing for their loved ones and changes all the lives around them for the worse" dead. A spark of consciousness has ceased to exist. That kind of dead.

Let me also say that killing yourself over a video game sounds silly, but I don't believe it's over a game when this actually happens. I think we can all agree it's because of their perspective and the people around them who affect it in many cases. To that effect, why would you ever even remotely allow the risk of this happening because of interactions in your community to be present? This is the only sport I've ever played (if you acknowledge Esports as sports) where during, after, and SOMETIMES EVEN BEFORE a game, you have your team AND/OR the opposing team telling you to end your real human being life.

You say you oppose toxicity and support constructive interactions, but especially in the lower ELO's (most of the world that plays the game) this blatant and destructive toxicity is rampant. Unfortunately, while you are once more not directly responsible for the act when committed, there are steps you could take as decent, compassionate, and benevolent human beings to minimize the destructive influences within the community you've created and interact with.

There's the problem; now for solutions. You've included a mute button, but sometimes that doesn't stop the incident from occurring. Unfortunately, it's deprecating garbage like KYS that causes you to use the mute button RETROACTIVELY. You could argue that you could go into a match muting everyone, but what kind of team dynamic does that create? And what kind of overarching community thrives when everyone has to preemptively destroy communications with each other lest they be made to feel worthless?

This leads us to the report system, which is also retroactively used, but offers some chance of retribution in the acknowledgement of one's injury. On that point, allow me to ask, what do you classify KYS as? Is telling someone to kill themselves a "Negative Attitude"? Is telling another person to end their life "Hate Speech"? Why not kill two birds with one stone here and add a report category specifically for KYS? This accomplishes two things in that it clearly defines where such a horrendous offense is to be reported while allowing specific punishment for the offense upon the confirmed report if it was deserved. That's the beauty of it too - it's so easy to validate. Scan chat for the match, and if it's there, it's there. If they said it, they said it. Apply necessary punishments.

When I say punishments, I don't necessarily mean they get perma-banned on first offense. As much as I like that, such absolutes disregard anomalous incidents, which are too many to try to predict. But why not impose immediate action that is not so severe as it is effective? Apply a ban from chat for a period, even if it's only a few hours. I acknowledge some people just need to calm down. While they get back to a decent place, keep them from sending others to such a negative one. If it persists, extend the chat ban. If it still happens and is a clear pattern of malice or disregard, elevate severity.

I'm sure there are other solutions, but that's the best I've come up with. It would certainly involve more moderation and work on your end, but why do something at all if you're not going to do it right? Why is it people can get banned quickly for cheating and breaking the rules of the game, but face such lacking punishment for breaking the laws of society and moral code of any decent person? At what point do you decide to step in and prevent what harm you can in your own social environment? At what point do you embrace the value of a human life and experience and take this simple tangible step to preserve it on your watch? If nothing else, wouldn't the removal of KYS from the LOL community narrative lead to improvement in the general quality of interactions and sense of community and belonging?

Again, I know it seems like a lot of work, but think of how easy it would be to maintain if the norm were the ABSENCE of this kind of toxicity. These days this terrible behavior is the expectation, and so the expectation perpetuates itself. Remove the expectation of painful interactions of this kind riot. I hope one day I get to play this game in a time where I would actually be shocked to see KYS in the chat again. I know I'm not the only one.

With that, if this is in the wrong place, please point me in the right direction. I don't want this to be read and moved on from. I want to see change for the better. TLDR below.

TLDR: KYS is an unacceptable idea to convey to another person. Add a category of report specifically for it, apply more targeted punishments for it, and create an environment that people don't have to worry about getting quite so hurt in by everyone around them. Make your "community" matter to everyone who feels they are not accepted in it. Save lives Riot. Let me know what steps I can take to see this through.

Now I hope to see positivity, support, and connections here, but I'm also ready for the trolls. Let's see how many times I get told to kill myself for caring about this. Hope you're watching Riot.

*EDIT: Thanks for the attention to the issue and the provided inputs. I do ask that if you voted no in the poll, you state why. I'd have added separate no categories, but the character limit is kind of small for naming the options. Also, please direct anyone here who would be interested so we can get a vibrant and open discussion going on the issue. Thanks, and gl on the rift.

26 Comments

YOU LOST LMAO5 votes

only soft little kids report because they let other kids hurt their feelings and they cant toughen up

Squeebs theGreat6 votes

I bet you're someone who uses this phrase. Am I right?

BeatzBoyFTW4 votes

He did got suspended last time, so probably.

Jyoeru2 votes

Hate speech button is already there. But people honestly need thicker skin.

Final Spark Lux7 votes

No, people need to stop being dicks over a game. We're all here to do the same thing, and that's to have fun. I don't care if a game isn't going your way, this isn't acceptable behavior.

Squeebs theGreat4 votes

I agree completely. Even if you're having a bad day, what does it say about you if you're willing to wreak such havoc on another person because you're upset? Just take a break, untilt, and try again when you're in the right state of mind. That's what the pros do.

Squeebs theGreat4 votes

Why? Why would another human being ever need to say this to another one? Why not, instead of victims growing thicker skin, have offenders develop a bit more self control or consideration for others?

Jyoeru2 votes

We are not in disagreement over the behavior people should exhibit. Where we are in disagreement is this notion that we should censor everything. Let's say you erradicate this problem tomorrow, there will be another segment of speech that you will wish to have punishable. As I said people need thicker skin. The world is Harsh and people are jerks and that's the way it's always been

Squeebs theGreat4 votes

Censor everything? You can still say it if you'd like unfortunately, but if it hurts someone, they have the option to make the offense known. How is giving someone an option wrong? It's not like it could be erroneously reported. Evidence is there or not. Why not give people a voice? Furthermore, doesn't it sadden you that this destructive toxicity has become your norm? Why not change it if you could?

Jyoeru3 votes

I mean honestly, people and their trigger warnings and safe spaces. Too much. You're going to lead us all to a nanny state and book bonfire.

Squeebs theGreat3 votes

No slippery slope here. The notion that someone should kill themself is unique in that it is one of the most destructive messages in existence. People should have no problem eliminating it from their vocabulary. Nobody should miss it. And it stops there.

Jyoeru1 votes

Yes for you. It stops there. But there are so many things people say that others hold higher disregard for.

You did imply permabans for saying KYS, so it is censorship. Again we agree that people shouldn't be saying toxic stuff like this. We just disagree on how it should be handled.

And if someone's on the edge to where someone in lol pushes them over, it seems to me they need some serious help. I'd say that's more important to address than whether or not someone in lol is a jerk and hurts someone else's feelings.

As you said, slippery slope. It is because every time we make special rules about things we dislike that offend us, we put ourselves in danger of becoming a nanny state. That's more dangerous than the issue at hand in my opinion.

Squeebs theGreat2 votes

You realize slippery slope is a fallacy, right? As in not valid within an argument. You're offering the slippery slope of "if we do this, we have to go too far with it." Furthermore, Jyoeru, I'm avidly against the idea of over-censorship. If you want to express how you feel about someone, or cause emotional harm, there are plenty of ways to do it and you're entitled to your opinion, sour as it may be. But I'm proposing that the KYS message in all its states is characteristically fundamentally different from other harms. I personally get a lot more offended over certain other topics myself. But this brand of message of not just causing harm, but positively providing encouragement for a monstrous act is not acceptable. Tell me "**** you" or call me autistic (which is unbelievably stupid, but our generation knows no bounds and doesn't care how ridiculous they sound), but they are inherently different than telling me to end my own life. The most important part though Jyo, is that you can still tell me to kill myself if you want. Being that it's NOT mandatory AND retrograde disqualifies it from being a forced censorship. Instead, if you say it to someone who it impacts as it was intended to, they have the choice to at least see to it that you can't do it to someone else for 24 hours.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by implied permabans since I'm openly telling you I wouldn't go about it that way. And finally, this is one of those limitations that shouldn't affect you if you're just not a terrible person. Do you find censorship to be overbearing in not being able to murder? Because while it pertains to action, laws that limit your actions by risk of retroactive punishment are technically censorship too. Do you follow laws? Do you get mad about the law that says you can't physically assault someone? If so, why? Unless YOU physically assault people it shouldn't even be an issue to you. Unless you support people who do in their actions, then it shouldn't affect you.

In short, put away your slippery slope fallacy of taking this too far. The KYS message applies only to its own brand, and that's what I'd like to see shut down. Other people may take it further, but they're equally likely not to. So don't use that as a reason not to improve things or care about something. Also, don't take this as hostile - I appreciate your input despite our differences.

Jyoeru2 votes

I realize what it is. My proposal is that your initial logic is a slippery slope. I realize you think I am being an extremist, ergo your claim of my slippery slope stuff, but the point I am making is this:

  1. There already is a way to report it

  2. It already comes with consequences

  3. People can mute toxic people

  4. KYS is no more or less toxic than other stuff in general

4a) And to those affected more intensely by it, they have to get stronger or

4b) They will always be knocked down by jerks who seek them out

  1. We've already done a lot to lead to a censorship society, so continuing to bring nanny into everything only adds one more drop in a bucket. I mean, like I said, look at the SJW and the trigger warning crap. I have friends in college who are learning nothing because professors are afraid of the trigger warning SJW bs. Camille Paglia has some great videos about this general topic. And this notion of creating a special group of reportable offenses that we see as particularly hostile, with special punishments that would likely be more severe than the general hate chat reported behavior, is on par with my point.

We keep upping the ante. I hate people being hateful, and I am sad that people think KYS is ever an appropriate thing to say. I'm just not sure which is scientifically more problematic: saying KYS to a person who has or is contemplating or knows someone the same; or being generally emotionally abusive to someone in the contemplating/ed state who might slump into an emotional chasm and possibly move to action.

I mean, you're right, it's only one more bubble to click. But I think it will cause more harm than good. The nature of the internet has only gotten WORSE over the last 20 years, and that's despite all our censorship, cyber bullying laws, and related. I question the ultimate outcome from continuing to pursue this utopia of Bambi-chat interactions.

Besides that, I don't see KYS very much in our chat. I play a lot of games. I see it WAY more on Youtube comments, reddit, and related. And I'd imagine the largest affected group is teens in school, and they are exposed to it a lot at school I'd imagine.

Ultimately, the internet is a cesspool where anonymous domain empowers. The users should either be aware of this and plan accordingly, or learn to deal with/ignore the moments when they occur. That's far more empowering than trying to engineer online safespace culture.

Like I said, you are thinking and caring correctly in what you want and how bad you see this issue as being. I just think there are too many to manage without creating a very problematic dystopian outcome. Maybe that's too conspiracy theorist. I can see that.

And I don't take your message as hostile. I get where you are coming from. Been there, done that, disgruntled as much as you are. I'd probably be a happier person if people weren't so hateful. And besides that, special KYS reports/bans would probably only marginally reduce the occurrence. Maybe if they banned IPs. IDK. I just don't think it will yield useful enough results.

Squeebs theGreat1 votes

Thank you for taking the extra time to elaborate on this, as this was very helpful in establishing a viewpoint and creating a constructive conversation! So in response: I understand how you could see a potential slippery slope in my purpose of creating this page. Let it be known, though, that I am not dealing primarily with the fact that some few people may act on this. I am dealing with the fact that, as intended, this brand of comments causes an emotional harm that, while perhaps not necessarily worse to some or many, is certainly different in that it directly inspires the thought of suicide or self-harm. There are those who will hear even something like "you're autistic" and spiral into a self-harm mindset, but that is completely out of anyone's control but theirs, and not the current subject. But why not do what you can to mitigate some of the inspiration of the thought of suicide for those who it affects?
I also see where you're coming from with how this could contribute to an overly "squishy" society, but this has nothing to do with microaggressions or trigger warnings; it's about this unique brand of hateful garbage that is utterly unnecessary in our society. I'm interested to know if you would agree that any malicious message inspiring the direct topic of suicide as the point of thought is unnecessary entirely. Also, this is not so much about a societal change in "the world" so to speak as it is a societal change in the LoL community, one which should be focused on a cooperative and constructive atmosphere being that it is a game which revolves around teams and communication. If this were anything else that didn't depend so heavily on communication, I'd say to hell with it, just use the mute button excessively or don't even look at chat. But if you're not checking chat in League, you're acting as a liability to your team. Just as an example, I used to play a good bit of Call of Duty on Xbox live - the toxicity there was actually worse than here. So I often just didn't even put my headset on. But in League, communication is so crucial, that when the occasional comment of superior baseness (like "go drink bleach") pops up, you see it simply by taking the action of a good teammate in terms of communication. Even if you mute, what kind of team game and surrounding social environment thrives when you have to not be able to hear your teammates to have fun while hoping your often uncoordinated movements are winning ones? To be fair, there's nothing we can do about seeing it. But that's why I'm proposing what I'm proposing. I'm sure you know as a person who thinks and cares about things, both of which are hard to do in this day and age without getting pretty beat up, that when you are successfully harmed in some way, it feels much worse if there is no recognition of the event. If you ever know anyone personally who has been raped and unable to see any kind of consequence through, they'll tell you what I'm talking about if you're not already familiar. There is even psychological evidence that human beings starting in childhood experience emotional pain when they feel they've been treated unfairly.
Moving forward with that idea in mind, I think this is one reason the report system exists; to give recognition to the injuries of players who, by whatever means, experience this. But it also exists (i like to think primarily) as a tool for reform of toxic players.
You said you probably would be happier if people weren't so hateful -- so why not take action to combat a message that I argue is especially hateful? Again, it may not be worse, but it is unique in the brand of ultimately destructive hate it conveys. Furthermore, I can't stress enough that this function would only help the people who actually get bothered, or like me, fear the day someone more turbulent has to put up with it.
Finally, and sorry for the length, but this is an engaging conversation that demands thorough address, you say that it would be equally constructive for people to toughen up. I agree. But I do NOT agree that that is the best solution on its own. As you've correctly pointed out, people will inevitably come across this stuff many places in the world today. You're right in that it would serve them well in the long run to know how to properly assign importance, or rather a lack thereof, to it. But why can't they do both of our suggestions? Like I said, even with the new retroactive report, they will still have to see it anyway. Why not send out the message of "You need to know what kind of trash you'll encounter in the world, and you'll need to know how to combat it and how to not let it hurt you. But we're here to help if you find any exceptional trash, so you AND us can take steps to help the creator of it be better. We can work together to prevent other people from having to deal with it, because nobody deserves this message and the immediate dangers that come with it."
I appreciate your viewpoint, but I have to disagree with the overall message since League isn't the sum of the world's encounters. It's a place people come to specifically have a good match and a good time. Why should it have to be a place of enduring some degree of intended torment? I'm sure "ADVISORY: Don't play this game unless you want to have 100 people try make you feel bad about yourself with a slight possibility of taking into question your own life's value at someone's direction" or "don't play this game unless you are emotionally tough (desensitized) enough to withstand at least 45 minutes of straight malicious bombardment" are not fine-print stickers that Riot wants to proudly assign to their ESPORT activity.

GoleBilon2 votes

i love this idea , i am a little bit toxic myself but behaviour that you described is over the line.

I think behaviour like that should be treated with bigger punishments and people that do it should be banned on the lower amount of games reviewed. It's a big diffrence between calling smbd bad or useless in the game and wishing them death

Squeebs theGreat2 votes

Agreed. An again, to avoid the people saying they want to avoid over-censorship, we could even go with longer term chat bans. It won't stop all toxicity, but it will effectively hinder a lot of it. I'm prone to lose my cool once in a while, but even at my worst I understand it's never okay to tell someone this. Thanks for your input!

Tempname30552 votes

If you can't take a KYS over the internet then don't play an online game, people need to stop babyraging about what strangers on the internet say and just mute or ignore or whatever. If getting a KYS in a video game would make you hurt yourself or be sad about your friend who actually did it then KYS.

Squeebs theGreat4 votes

The name says it all, and sorry but no. You're mixed up here. If you can't keep from saying ridiculous, harmful, and generally useless things to people who you probably wouldn't say it to personally while on the internet, DON'T USE CHAT. If you can't keep yourself from abusing your right to speech, forgo it for the sake of other people better than you in character. If you can't exist in society with other human beings without being respectful, leave it. Follow that other guy's advice and "go live in a cave somewhere." Just because you fancy yourself to be real-life Trundle, don't make the good people around you suffer your mistake with you. That said, I hope one day whatever is wrong with you gets better. And thanks for starting the "KYS" counter. We're at one folks.

jinxedchef2 votes

If you are so weak willed that you can not face three letters on a computer screen put there by someone you will never meet and someone who will never mean anything to you, then you need a safe space that doesn't include the internet. Maybe you should live in a cave somewhere or a nursery school. If "KYS" is the worse thing you ever face in your lifetime then you lived a pretty sheltered life.

Squeebs theGreat1 votes

Who made this rule? Does taking intended offense mean that you are weak willed? I would say that if you're so weak willed you can't think twice about saying stupid harmful garbage to someone, you should simply not be permitted to speak. But unfortunately understanding people like me have to appreciate that people like yourself get to say whatever stupid stuff they want in a day and age that is far too permitting... of people like you. And who ever said it's the worst thing they've ever seen? And why does it have to be for it to matter? You don't know what even I've gone through, or friends of mine, or family, or any other person on the planet. I'm sure you've had your share too since you clearly like to profess to know anything about human struggle while you diminish it. I guarantee you it's not the "worst thing" seen by anyone who receives it. But it's an unnecessary evil that we could all and should all do without.

Example: What the Japanese did during WWII is horrendous. Most of it, though, is dwarfed in comparison to the Holocaust. So by your logic, since the Japanese atrocities weren't "the worst", people should just get over them, right?

jinxedchef1 votes

Your rumbling is virtually incoherent. Point is, if you are unable to stand up to the horrors of facing letters on a computer screen, perhaps you aren't ready for the internet or the real world. Perhaps you should unplug your PC and just lock yourself in your closet.

Squeebs theGreat1 votes

So when you don't know what to say you just say you don't understand the counterargument... Okay, then I'll simplify too. It's not about what you can and can't do. It's about what you should and shouldn't have to do. Should you deal with someone in real life walking up and kicking you in the balls every day? No. Could you? Yes. This isn't a matter of toughness, this is a matter of moral, ethical, and humane behavior. Do you have anything worthwhile to say to that? Was I clear enough, or do you still not understand? Also, again, if you're not ready to be a constructive or at least decent member of society, why don't you do the same? That silliness goes both ways.

VirusSixZero2 votes

Just report it as hate speech or harassment. A specialized category isn't necessary over the specific axis of intersectionality the alleged offender is using. It doesn't particularly matter for example if the player is using a racial slur, or homophobic language, it's all hate speech. The best way to report is to use an existing category, and then write a brief note about what the person said that garnered the report. At the end of the line, if the account gets reported 5 times in 8 games for harassment or hate speech, or a combination of the two, a corrective measure is on its way. The benefit of your memo is that a human auditor can see specifics over what was said, this can weigh in decisions about the severity of corrective measure, or any kind of appeal initiated by the account holder.

Squeebs theGreat1 votes

Hello and thanks for a purely constructive comment! This is a very good alternative, but I must point out that one stipulation of my proposal for the added category is the improved awareness and treatment of the offense in question. To avoid disputes in the long run, it would only help them to classify it by itself so it can be treated independently of other hate speech. Again, this message in all its forms of fundamentally different from other forms of hate speech or harassment. It may cross those lines as well, but it ultimately holds its own jurisdiction. Even if Riot were to take positive action against this hateful message and treat it slightly more seriously than run-in-the-mill toxicity through existing report structure, they would be doing so under the name of something which it is not authentically what it is.
One downside of this is reflected through a fear I hear often while playing with a mix of toxic players and non-toxic reporters - they fear that harassment and verbal abuse will not be investigated, and that leaving a comment only increases the chances that it will be, but not by enough to matter most often. It would be much clearer to not only know in the name what they are looking for, and keep in mind comments could be used to specify the message so anyone with the chat in front of them could simply run a find-it, and be able to punish it under terms more suitable to the offense without question.
It's largely a question of creating a new circumstance that will help isolate an existing, toxic norm so that norm can be changed. Right now it seems to be "KYS is harassment, they won't take that seriously" as the expectation. If instead it was "KYS will be noticed easily and for what it is, and Riot apparently has a poor view of me telling people that" then I bet they would see it is not in their best interest even as harmful people to do it. Imagine a LoL where, for whatever reason, people ACTIVELY AVOID communicating the KYS message (as they should already as members of the human race).

Whether you see the point or agree, thanks again for speaking up here in a respectful way! Send some people over so we can keep the conversation rolling.

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