Banned ( 2011 )

Cyonsiaros··4 votes·1,454 views

So I was banned in 2011 or so with the introduction of the Tribunal. Feelsbadman. Reason was harassment; in particular I said things other people didn't like and did so often enough that I needed to be banned for life from what I was told. This of course was a different policy than other online games and came as a bit of a surprise. I did not charge back any purchases or anything of that nature upon being banned but I did write 1-2 letters ever since 2011 to Riot Games to petition for an unban. Several employees have come and gone and the game has even changed hands with TenCents acquisition of the IP some years ago. Every time I have petitioned I have been denied and told the issue is settled. I don't quite understand what brought the game and eventually society to the point where words were dangerous or that people should be shielded from words, mockery, critique or verbal hazing but alas the game and world went there. Now I'm 30, and have been banned since my early 20's. Surely I'm a different person but at the same time I still have a differing philosophy than riot. I don't believe in zero chance of redemption or permanent punishment.

 At times I feel I must be a monster. Where I live 20 years is a life sentence. 20 years is considered a period of time meant to represent an entire life and heinous crimes may result in multiple consecutive life sentences. I have served 6 years banned for hazing players within the confines of single games including pre and post game chats where applicable. Never did I attempt to track and continually message any given member party. Once the game was over - the game was over - and there would be no communication between me and these victims. No stalking, no continual multi-game harassment and certainly no threats of violence or law breaking you would expect permanent suspensions to be reserved for.

 I don't know why it is so important that my account remain banned. I don't understand a policy where I am told to create a new account and continue adding and contributing to the community and of what relevance maintaining this ban has if I am to be able to continue playing on a new account. Is the only reason to take something from me because of the negative effect I may have had on others? Is it to be believed those effects are permanent? There is no evidence anyone's current life beyond my own is affected by my past behavior. From the beginning of this game I have contributed and supported the growth of the game. I just want a chance to return under equal terms. I want my account back, my alias and we can talk about what you need me to do in return. Lets have an open dialogue with the community to determine the appropriate road back for offenders which are non-violent, have broken no real world laws and are willing to work on behalf of the player base and riot to make the game better.

 The system does not work. The game has an unarguably toxic environment and has become infamous for this very nature. How exactly this environment was fostered and came to fruition is a bit of a mystery. What is known is the decidedly inefficient fashion in which this matter is tackled. When  based on the morals and ideals of very few people; the rules and restrictions do not reflect the will or ideology of mankind. I have trouble believing in the year 2011 the appropriate response to my behavior that month was to permanently ban my alias and inventory. I can understand a ban or extended ban. At five years I could hardly believe I was still banned. Now in 2017 I just really wish there was an initiative by riot to rethink their policies in an effort to better address behavioral issues. 

 The critique exists as follows; the system just isn't good enough. You can write me back every year and tell me I am banned for ever - I will keep writing in every year because eventually you and your ideals will change or be extinguished and either reborn or replaced. I may never be unbanned - but I sure hope Riot gets their shit together and implements a better system than the tribunal. Never is a damn long time.

73 Comments

Sarutobi10 votes

You might claim the system doesn't work, but at least in my eyes they seems to be working, especially with someone like you having being ban. You obviously do not get why you were ban, and still believe you did nothing wrong. That's one of the reasons why Riot wont ever unban your account. If you cannot take responsibility for your actions why should you get the privilege of getting that account back?

While it is true that you (and many others) haven't really broken any real world rules. You have to remember that this is Riot's Games. They make the rules and you must follow them. It would be no different than going to a store and having a "Do not touch" sign, but you keep on touching it and eventually it gets to a point where the people who own the store ban you (possibly for life) over something as small as that. Its the principle of the matter. You obviously do not know how to follow the rules, and because of that got ban.

Honestly I've been playing this game for years and just find it hard to believe how people can so easily break such simple rules. Its makes it even harder to understand how you function in life if something as simple as "Don't be a Dick" is hard for you to follow. Do you also throw a tantrum when things don't go your way in real life? If a line is too long do you bitch and moan? Do you harass people who look at your funny? All of these things have one thing in common and that's Self Control. Which seems a lot of people do not have nowadays. A lot of things in life is going to cause you to be irritated, but Self Control tells you not to lash out. Same goes for this game. Its a game meant to be enjoyed and have fun. If this game is that bad that its causing you lash out, harass other people, use Slurs/etc its time to stop. either find a different game/hobby, or see what is truly wrong.

Like i said I've been playing this game for years. Probably close to 7 years, although ill admit i don't even know for sure. Never once did i feel the need to be toxic, or break the rules for this game. Why? Because i enjoy this game, i put my time, money and effort into it. Why waste all that for someone who isn't even worth your time? For someone who you will only see possibly once with your time playing this game? Again its just not worth it, so why risk it?

Personally I believe the system is working. I come on these boards, and see post like yours well its blaming everyone, but themselves and wondering why the world wont cater towards their every need. Its funny because majority of the time these people will scream "Special Snowflakes" or the things like that when its ironic because its they who want to be the special snowflake and have everyone only see their ideology, their means. Riot gave you a chance to reform, it is not their fault you didnt take it serious and got to a point where you got ban permanently. You could have either shown your improve by making a new account, or just leaving the game. You can keep trying to contact them, but you will never get your account back, and i pray that stays that way because you ruin people's game, games that everyone should be enjoying and having fun, but not at another person expense.

èGirl Nami4 votes

it makes me sad to know that no where near 10% of the people who play league will read this.

i wish it'd get pinned for a life-time

Cyonsiaros2 votes

{quoted}

Its makes it even harder to understand how you function in life if something as simple as "Don't be a Dick" is hard for you to follow. Do you also throw a tantrum when things don't go your way in real life? If a line is too long do you bitch and moan? Do you harass people who look at your funny? All of these things have one thing in common and that's Self Control. Which seems a lot of people do not have nowadays. A lot of things in life is going to cause you to be irritated, but Self Control tells you not to lash out. Same goes for this game. Its a game meant to be enjoyed and have fun. If this game is that bad that its causing you lash out, harass other people, use Slurs/etc its time to stop. either find a different game/hobby, or see what is truly wrong.

____ This is when i stopped reading your post. You couldn't help but decide that you knew me and who I was and prescribed negative personality quirks to me. I didn't do anything to you. I am not that guy in your life. If you cannot view people and ideas objectively maybe these boards are not for you. Your opinion is not valued by me and I would imagine not many would find any value in what you stated. You may need an evaluation.

Sarutobi6 votes

{quoted}

____ This is when i stopped reading your post. You couldn't help but decide that you knew me and who I was and prescribed negative personality quirks to me. I didn't do anything to you. I am not that guy in your life. If you cannot view people and ideas objectively maybe these boards are not for you. Your opinion is not valued by me and I would imagine not many would find any value in what you stated. You may need an evaluation.

And yet Im still playing this game and you are not. We both have been playing the same game. Yet you are ban and i am not, why? Because one of us follows the rules and the other doesnt care. This is why i cannot help, nor respect people like you because again like i said you don't take responsibility. You are basically attacking me because i dont agree with you, because i dont want you to come back into this game i enjoy and ruin it. True, that you might not have ruin my games, but i am for everyone else. I care about the people who play this game, who help make this game. You obviously dont if you believe that you can break the rules and get away with it. I dslike toxic people in my games just as much as i hate trolls, hackers, or any other type of person who tries and ruins it for anyone else. As i have said time and time again this is a game. Meant to be enjoyed and to have fun. Tell me who was having fun while you were being toxic aside from you?

Cyonsiaros1 votes

You ascribed negative personality traits to me and your post was debunked. There was no attack. You continue to tell me who I am, what I do and what I think without knowing me. It is obvious from your writings you hold hatred in your heart for me. You disown me and would have me tarred and feathered for nothing more than what Riot games describe as inappropriate behavior in the year 2011. You came to this thread with baggage and unloaded that baggage here. I am the villain in your life and you did not know me before an hour ago. Your activity is inappropriate at best and at worst you should reevaluate the situation and how you want the world to see you. If you don't want your ideas which defame me personally scrutinized and discredited - simply don't post them. Why can't we instead get along? We may not see eye to eye and we may even differ extensively but this is not an opportunity for you to describe your antihero and determine I am some culprit which matches your description. Have some human decency.

Also I play the game, you are incorrect. I partake in the community as I created an account as Riot instructed - leveled to 30 and have maintained that account in operable conditions. I very much was reformed in that regard if having an active level 30 account available for ranked play is the standard. I have played for years.

hshtagniemehrcdu2 votes

{quoted}

You ascribed negative personality traits

Well its quite sumple. In order to get banned from the tribunal you to get banned several times by a system which was acting relativly slowly. Then, you had to keep up your behaviour, which consistet in permanently harrassing/flaming your teammates. Now, several years later, you still seem ti think that not your behavior, but rather anyone else is tthe problem.

So yeah, i think it might just be possible to draw some conclusions about your behaviour.

Aeszarck2 votes

{quoted}

And yet Im still playing this game and you are not. We both have been playing the same game. Yet you are ban and i am not, why? Because one of us follows the rules and the other doesnt care. This is why i cannot help, nor respect people like you because again like i said you don't take responsibility. You are basically attacking me because i dont agree with you, because i dont want you to come back into this game i enjoy and ruin it. True, that you might not have ruin my games, but i am for everyone else. I care about the people who play this game, who help make this game. You obviously dont if you believe that you can break the rules and get away with it. I dslike toxic people in my games just as much as i hate trolls, hackers, or any other type of person who tries and ruins it for anyone else. As i have said time and time again this is a game. Meant to be enjoyed and to have fun. Tell me who was having fun while you were being toxic aside from you?

Wonderfully expressed.

RallerenP3 votes

He didn't assume anything. He asked if you were like that IRL, to point out how stupid it would be if you did do those things.

If this game is that bad that its causing you lash out, harass other people, use Slurs/etc its time to stop. either find a different game/hobby, or see what is truly wrong.

You obviously did harrass people. It's an undisputable fact you even admitted in the OP. That is why you got banned. You believe you shouldn't have been banned (even though the rules are really simple), implying that you should be able to say whatever you want, which is how you(and some extremely small minority) want it to be. Problem is: This is not your game, that is not how Riot wants their game, and you will not get unbanned. You opinion has, in fact, been thrown aside.

Also I find it ironic how, in your OP, you implied that words can't hurt you, hence no punishment should be given, while you yourself instantly got mad and let your emotions take over, to the point of not even wanting to read the rest of his comment and completely nullifiying it in your eyes. You are the one incapable of viewing people and ideas objectively.

He kindly wrote out a long comment, trying to explain how the system works, and why you will not get unbanned, and responded with: idc.

If you do not want to accept that and keep writing to Riot every year, do so. It won't change a thing, you are only wasting your own time.

Cyonsiaros1 votes

I turned the other cheek, no one was banned and there was no violence. you don't have a right to have your opinion read by me or anyone on these forums. It is a privileged that you, I or anyone can speak here. Ironic would be a scenario where which disciplinary action was taken. This is simply a misunderstanding of what Irony means.

Also he didn't do what you wrote. He assumed everything. As evidenced here in his own words:

{quoted}

Well its quite sumple. In order to get banned from the tribunal you to get banned several times by a system which was acting relativly slowly. Then, you had to keep up your behaviour, which consistet in permanently harrassing/flaming your teammates. Now, several years later, you still seem ti think that not your behavior, but rather anyone else is tthe problem.

So yeah, i think it might just be possible to draw some conclusions about your behaviour.

RallerenP4 votes

no one was banned and there was no violence.

You were banned. But no, there were no physical violence (but I don't see how that is relevant).

you don't have a right to have your opinion read by me or anyone on these forums.

Why post then? If you brush off opinions that contradict your own, you will get nowhere.

Ironic would be a scenario where which disciplinary action was taken. This is simply a misunderstanding of what Irony means.

I don't know if I used the word 'ironic' wrongly. Im not english myself, but I do consider myself quite capable of keeping a conversation going. Here is to clarify:

I find it quite double-sided to let emotions take over, because of his comment, as you have previously implied that words shouldn't be enough to make people mad/sad.

Also finally:

A conclusion =/= an assumption

He logically concluded things about your behaviour from proof you have provided yourself. He didn't assume you were slowly banned by the tribunal, you were. He also didn't assume you kept up your behaviour, you did. Finally, he didn't assume you blamed everyone else, you did.

He then concluded, through reasoning traits about your behaviour.

I am not quite sure what you meant by your entire comment though, it just seems as if you are responding to someone else. I don't know entirely what you meant by:

This is simply a misunderstanding of what Irony means.

Do you mean that I used the word wrong, or something else?

Aeszarck3 votes

{quoted}

Do you mean that I used the word wrong, or something else?

You used the word correctly, don't worry. You expected him to take the comments in this thread in stride because he implied words couldn't hurt him, but then he reacted negatively anyways, creating situational irony.

Cyonsiaros1 votes

Sarutobi; Anyone here can google your alias and see how you have been toxic towards the community. Your opinion has zero value in this thread and you have lied at several intervals and at least one of your responses throughout this thread was reported for breaking the eula. We have rules in our community and you can't treat people like scum because you have emotional baggage. I suggest you pay mind to the way you conduct yourself as your true self is showing. You are no longer worthy of response and as such you will receive none as you are a disgrace to our community in this current year. Treat others how you want to be treated.

hshtagniemehrcdu2 votes

{quoted}

Sarutobi; Anyone here can google your alias and see how you have been toxic towards the community. Your opinion has zero value in this thread and you have lied at several intervals and at least one of your responses throughout this thread

People statistically do continue that behavior despite the bans on their new accounts Riot instructs them to create. Riot does not deny this

Btw, still waiting for your source. People already posted Riot stating that they do not want you guys to create new accounts. IF you accuse people of lying, maybe you should avoid stuff like this...

ModUlanopo7 votes

Lets have an open dialogue with the community to determine the appropriate road back for offenders which are non-violent, have broken no real world laws and are willing to work on behalf of the player base and riot to make the game better.

Riot used to have a thing called the Level 20 Challenge where people could get their old accounts back if they successfully got a new account to 20 without getting punished. Short version: it was a huge failure and it exposed new players to some of the worst behavior.

As for the "broken no real-world laws" bit, you may want to consider how your relationship with Riot is contractual rather than criminal. They let you into their house as long as you agree to do/not do certain things. People who beak the agreement get kicked out.

Cyonsiaros1 votes

It's no surprise this ended in failure. Similar results are seen in real life prisons. No rehabilitation occurred. How anyone could think such a system would be successful makes one wonder who makes these decisions. There is no easy -no effort solution to fixing this community and making the game better for everyone. It will take a little more thought than that.

hshtagniemehrcdu3 votes

{quoted}

It's no surprise this ended in failure. Similar results are seen in real life prisons. No rehabilitation occurred. How anyone could think such a system would be successful makes one wonder who makes these decisions. There is no easy -no effort solution to fixing this community and making the game better for everyone. It will take a little more thought than that.

There's a decent reformrate from people that receive chat restrictions, and also for the 2 weeks ban. Then there's also people like you that can't be reformed...

Cyonsiaros1 votes

{quoted}

There's a decent reformrate from people that receive chat restrictions, and also for the 2 weeks ban. Then there's also people like you that can't be reformed...

    My ban predates much of todays system, I don't expect you to be privy to that knowledge as I cannot expect you to be knowledgeable of such subjects that may predate you account or existence in our community. It may be worthwhile for me to inform you and possibly others that this was not always the case. Several systems have been tested over time and chat restrictions were not in place when I was banned, I do agree such a service may have allowed reformation. Unfortunately I was never privy to that system and instead suffered from the older - deemed inadequate system. That being said improvement is needed and what we have today is not perfect.

  I played at a time unlike todays atmosphere. If you wanted to know your ELO you would visit an external site; locusts and Dan and Andy Dinh would be top contenders for ELO before our community grew for example. When you would visit  forums you would speak with  pendragon and very few champions available for play.

Gaming empires erupted from the sands - Esports rose from the surf. Players became salaried professionals all over time. We did not start like that. We had humble beginnings and the game and community evolved over time. I'm asking that more focus be put on the community - behavior and reform regardless of my status It would be good for the games future and our society.

hshtagniemehrcdu3 votes

{quoted}

Several systems have been tested over time and chat restrictions were not in place when I was banned, I do agree such a service may have allowed reformation. Unfortunately I was never privy to that system and instead suffered from the older - deemed inadequate system. That being said improvement is needed and what we have today is not perfect.

The lvl 20 Challenge is from this period... And just because riot deemed the old system not good enough doesn'T mean that banning you was wrong.

  I played at a time unlike todays atmosphere. If you wanted to know your ELO you would visit an external site; locusts and Dan and Andy Dinh would be top contenders for ELO before our community grew for example. When you would visit  forums you would speak with  pendragon and very few champions available for play.

Gaming empires erupted from the sands - Esports rose from the surf. Players became salaried professionals all over time. We did not start like that. We had humble beginnings and the game and community evolved over time. I'm asking that more focus be put on the community - behavior and reform regardless of my status It would be good for the games future and our society.

There is a lot of focus on reform- just in some very, very rare cases, for the most toxic people that ever played the game, this option is not available anymore. You speak about "reforming", and yet demosntrate you haven't changed a bit. "Community-focus" .. you jsut dont want to see that the community doesn't want you.

And last, being reformed doesn'T mean that punishments should be lifted. If you trule reformed, you would be able to see that the punishment was jsutified, and the only option left.

Cyonsiaros1 votes

First of all you have no credentials to determine reformation. You are no behavioral specialist. Lets debunk that before we start. There was no level 20 experiment as tribunal was just introduced to the game right before my ban. You are misinformed of the history of our game. You present a radical logical fallacy by determining I cannot be reformed if I do not agree with the punishment. Such archaic thought is beyond reason in modern day society. Luckily you are alone in that particular thought. You are quickly leaving yourself with little reason for me to respond. if you cannot contribute meaningfully to the discussion you cannot expect other to find interest in your thoughts. Please carefully construct criticisms if you wish to present them as to save both you time and the intended readers. Thank you.

{quoted}

And last, being reformed doesn'T mean that punishments should be lifted. If you trule reformed, you would be able to see that the punishment was jsutified, and the only option left.

hshtagniemehrcdu2 votes

{quoted}

First of all you have no credentials to determine reformation. You are no behavioral specialist. Lets debunk that before we start. There was no level 20 experiment as tribunal was just introduced to the game right before my ban. You are misinformed of the history of our game. You present a radical logical fallacy by determining I cannot be reformed if I do not agree with the punishment. Such archaic thought is beyond reason in modern day society. Luckily you are alone in that particular thought. You are quickly leaving yourself with little reason for me to respond. if you cannot contribute meaningfully to the discussion you cannot expect other to find interest in your thoughts. Please carefully construct criticisms if you wish to present them as to save both you time and the intended readers. Thank you.

Well if you wish to remain stubborn and if you wish to stay a toxic player, then go on. WIth this, you will never be able to play the game properly again.

There was no level 20 experiment as tribunal was just introduced to the game right before my ban.

What exactly do you want to say with this?

ModUlanopo5 votes

It's no surprise this ended in failure. Similar results are seen in real life prisons. No rehabilitation occurred.

Let's avoid apples to oranges comparisons. There is a huge difference between criminal behavior in society and toxic behavior in an online game.

How anyone could think such a system would be successful makes one wonder who makes these decisions.

That would be why they hired Lyte as their lead on this. He's gone now, but the use of cognitive neuroscience to shape behavior systems remains.

His real legacy is our understanding of recidivism with regard to punishment, which is a byproduct of taking a big data approach. Simply put, reform starts at ~50% regardless of what form of feedback or punishment is applied and degrades by about half with each successive application. That means 50% will change after the first, 25% after the second, 12.5% after the third and so on.

I don't know why it is so important that my account remain banned.

Mostly in the hope that banned players will find something else to do. The math says that people who have been punished that many times are highly unlikely to change, but preventing people from making new accounts is another nontrivial problem.

Cyonsiaros1 votes

I appreciate the civility expressed with your response as it is a breath of fresh air compared to some who find there home rumaging through the player behavior forums. People will continue to play League as it is one of the most popular games in the world - just as I a previously perma-banned player am currently starting a match. Nobody is leaving so lets get this right. A road of redemption should be available.

ModUlanopo3 votes

A road of redemption should be available.

Have you considered that you might already have traveled it? After all, you're enjoying a game of League right now, having successfully changed your behavior. It seems to me that both you and Riot are each getting what they want.

Cyonsiaros1 votes

I don't think you fully understand the topic. perhaps reading the thread once more may serve to refresh your memory .

ModUlanopo5 votes

Well, that was hardly necessary.

Your argument is that there should be a way for reformed players to recover banned accounts because you feel the system doesn't work and because permabanning as a form of punishment is ineffective.

My rebuttal is that an example of the system working - at least from the perspective of Riot and the larger League community - is you choosing to behave differently on your new account. I also argue that your enjoyment of the game is more valuable than some skins and a summoner name. Frankly, having been banned since 2011, I would think your new account would be far more valuable by now, especially with regard to sweat equity.

Cyonsiaros1 votes

That is a fallacy. The system having a possible neutral or positive result does not prove the system is any bit more effective than any other possibility. The only possible data you can draw from my experience is in fact I am capable of playing the game within certain parameters set forth by Riot. It does not and will not suggest that permanently banning an account is the reason for this change. It would be illogical to suggest such. You know only that these things both happened - but not of their exclusivity. I would argue the same result could have been achieved without the permanent ban and there is no data supporting otherwise. If I had any indication the account would be lost the behavior would have been corrected. That information was not relayed to me. The information simply was not made easily available and apparent but that is another discussion entirely. No other game I played at the time online would have punished me in such a manner.

Despite your best well wishes - the alias means much to me; the unobtainable skins come second. Google Cyonsiaros, there are contributions I have made to the community over time and a legacy whether it means something to you or anyone else. I find value in it; as does Riot considering the ban remains. In what world would this ban being upheld change what happened in 2011? The time was served and I would challenge you to offer any philosophy that would suggest there be sound reason in upholding this judgement. The data simply does not support this over any other outcome as so little effort exploring other paths has been expelled while a billion dollar industry moves along.

In short; its a poor example at best and its a shame it is so evident to you that these things are mutual and inseparable. That is truly thinking within a box and the opposite of what today's youth are taught. It is old world thinking. The reality is the position has weak support and the correlations drawn are found questionable. Most importantly it is not an adequate defense for the current system or whether funding is misused or if the right people are in place to support the best possible future for this game. Your thinking in that regard is close minded as it ends the discussion immediately and suggests no improvement is needed. It doesn't end there and those interested in a brighter future will continue to protest the system. We have a lot of work to do; lets not short change ourselves or this community. of course perhaps I am mistaken; feel free to clear this up in your retort if you feel I have misread. I'm only human and mistakes do happen.

ModUlanopo3 votes

The system having a possible neutral or positive result does not prove the system is any bit more effective than any other possibility.

By that argument, it also doesn't prove it's any less effective, either.

Riot did a thing. That thing had a desired outcome (for them). You now want Riot to undo that thing. What would it benefit Riot to do so and why should they risk the associated consequences?

of course perhaps I am mistaken; feel free to clear this up in your retort if you feel I have misread. I'm only human and mistakes do happen.

I do feel you are mistaken, as I feel your argument comes from the wrong perspective:

In what world would this ban being upheld change what happened in 2011?

Obviously, no action at this point can change 2011, so that's kind of a straw man.

The time was served and I would challenge you to offer any philosophy that would suggest there be sound reason in upholding this judgement.

Regardless of your reformation, undoing your permaban would open the flood gates of others demanding the same. You would have to make the argument for how this benefits Riot and the community.

Further, I would like you to consider the analogy of a parking ticket. You pay the fine. Do you come back six years later and demand the fee back?

Cyonsiaros1 votes

{quoted}

By that argument, it also doesn't prove it's any less effective, either.

Agreed. I was simply disproving a point and setting the tone. It neither proves nor disproves and thus is not to be used as a factor.

Riot did a thing. That thing had a desired outcome (for them). You now want Riot to undo that thing. What would it benefit Riot to do so and why should they risk the associated consequences?

You see no value in the enrichment of our community and that troubles me. This is what separates someone business savy from the layman. It's all very interconnected and the experiences and community does matter in the end picture. There is value in reducing the toxicity of this community; its inarguable. A semester would be required to catch you up to speed there.

I do feel you are mistaken, as I feel your argument comes from the wrong perspective:

Obviously, no action at this point can change 2011, so that's kind of a straw man.

I'm glad we can agree there is no reason to uphold a ban based on ripples from several years ago that are most assuredly non existent in my case other than those which cause me personal grief.

Regardless of your reformation, undoing your permaban would open the flood gates of others demanding the same. You would have to make the argument for how this benefits Riot and the community.

Those floodgates are open and have been open. There have been instances of Riot Employees showing favoritism before; don't you think I was confused when known professionals in an undeveloped league scene were getting off the hook from their permanent bans? During the same time one employee was giving all the skins to her boyfriend while they personally would not consider giving skins for player run events. Regardless of Riots inability to treat players equally in the past for whatever supposed gain; What if a system was in place to allow us to return - profits are billions of dollars either way even if you don't think another penny should go to community development. Sure I or others want back in - a poor excuse would be to suggest there is not adequate funding to search for possibilities to make that a reality. Its a shit poor excuse and doesn't help the argument. Money is not the issue; education and expertise is. Quality of employees and their expertise. I've been here since the beginning; was here for the good and bad and the abhorrently ugly as far as Riot is concerned.

Further, I would like you to consider the analogy of a parking ticket. You pay the fine. Do you come back six years later and demand the fee back?

Apples and Oranges again? Would you mind discussing how this is relatable in any considerable way where which it would make it appropriate to make this analogy? It seems out of place and forced.

ModUlanopo3 votes

You see no value in the enrichment of our community and that troubles me. This is what separates someone business savy from the layman.

You do realize you're talking to someone who has been volunteering their time for the community since before your ban, right?

Regardless, I think this conversation has run its course. I wish you well in your endeavors.

Zielmann4 votes

You're arguing the time was served, but in reality it hasn't been. The ban to the account was permanent. Forever. The time has only been served when forever has passed. (Well, usually they mark permanent bans for about 200 years out, so I guess if you plan to live that long...)

Sometimes in life you have to learn lessons the hard way. It sounds like you have. You were rightfully banned and lost that account years ago. You've since become a better member of the community, which is great. It's what Riot wanted from you with even the first punishment you would have received on that account back then. Unfortunately, you didn't heed all the warnings you were given back then (in the Tribunal days, it often took several more punishments than even now to reach a permanent ban). If you had, we wouldn't be here having this discussion, as you'd still have that original account.

Your actions and decisions back then had consequences, one of which was a permanent loss of that account. Perhaps in the future, you'll now consider the potential long-term consequences of your actions.

Cyonsiaros1 votes

I argued the ban was unjust. That with the just decision the time would have already been served. It's capital punishment for several petty offenses which all happen to occur within a small time frame.

Zielmann1 votes

It's a little late to argue whether or not the ban was justified. The only thing I can say is that I'm pretty sure in 2011 under the Tribunal, they were still manually reviewing most, if not all, cases that were up for permanent bans. So if you got a permanent ban out of that system, it was most certainly deserved.

And a better (though still not perfect) analogy is more like having a driver's license taken away. You get caught speeding and running traffic lights enough times, and you'll lose the license. Even though an individual instance of either those wouldn't be enough to merit losing the license on its own.

Cyonsiaros1 votes

The case was manually reviewed. The rest of what you said is a matter of opinion. You might deserve a lot of things that may or may not come to you; but one thing will remain, nobody will care if you personally believe you or someone else deserves something. Feel free to omit that in the future as its inconsequential. I understand its fun to offer that opinion but you're hardly qualified nor does it have any relevance.

Here you lose your license for going twice the posted speed limit. Loss of license for life. This is because of the danger to human lives. I did not pose a danger to human lives - If anything maybe someone got a thicker skin and grew up a little better rounded. It's important not to shelter people in society in universities and prior because in the real world someone will tell you to eat shit and you don't have recourse. Online we have a company we made huge which relies on left leaning morals and principles that guided the creation of a system of punishment where which those who exercise freedom of speech will be squelched. The same philosophy is not shared by all other companies in the gaming industry. Regardless I supported Riot games from the beginning and saw mismanagement and misuse of that confidence. Fortunately in the real world I can protest and complain about this and you can retort. Be thankful for this.

ModThe Djinn2 votes

{quoted} Here you lose your license for going twice the posted speed limit. Loss of license for life. This is because of the danger to human lives. I did not pose a danger to human lives - If anything maybe someone got a thicker skin and grew up a little better rounded. It's important not to shelter people in society in universities and prior because in the real world someone will tell you to eat shit and you don't have recourse. Online we have a company we made huge which relies on left leaning morals and principles that guided the creation of a system of punishment where which those who exercise freedom of speech will be squelched. The same philosophy is not shared by all other companies in the gaming industry. Regardless I supported Riot games from the beginning and saw mismanagement and misuse of that confidence. Fortunately in the real world I can protest and complain about this. Because I have that freedom of speech and no liberal can take that away.

As someone who actually enjoys debate around this subject and is usually eager to get involved? The parallel to real-world threat to life (the metaphor doesn't really work), the veiled insults to liberal ideology, and the premise that it's all the fault of other people being too sensitive do not help your case.

I'm never offended by toxic behavior, for example. I just don't enjoy having it shoved in my face while I'm playing a game in my leisure time. Same way I don't want racial slurs or insults yelled at me while I'm at a restaurant. It's not a matter of thing skin, or me not being well rounded -- it's literally that I play League for the same reasons I undertake a number of leisure activities, and I tend not to want to relax places where I'm routinely accosted.

If you want to have a serious discussion, I would recommend avoiding these connections in the future -- they undermine the objective, analytical approach that an attempt to actually solve the problem in question requires, and make your case seem one of "I deserve differently" or "I've been wronged" rather than "the system can be and should be improved."

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}-snip-

Each to their own. I was attempting to help foster community discussion by warning you against a few of the things that I've seen curtail community interest in well-meaning threads in the past. What you do is, of course, up to you.

Best of luck with your efforts. <3

Cyonsiaros1 votes

I appreciate your time in the matter. May you fare well.

Zielmann1 votes

No, the ban being justified is not my opinion, it was Riot's when they issued the permanent ban after a manual review. It's their game and their servers, and you agree to their terms when you play. If they remove you from the game, it's their call.

And cases where your first offense makes you lose your license aren't comparable to what I was talking about. It was an illustration of how multiple small offenses can build up to a much more severe punishment.

Aeszarck2 votes

{quoted}

His real legacy is our understanding of recidivism with regard to punishment, which is a byproduct of taking a big data approach. Simply put, reform starts at ~50% regardless of what form of feedback or punishment is applied and degrades by about half with each successive application. That means 50% will change after the first, 25% after the second, 12.5% after the third and so on.

That's the statistic I have been looking for for awhile but couldn't find! Mind if I quote you on this for the future?

ModUlanopo3 votes

You'll probably want to locate the original Lyte quote. I lost the link when I bought my new computer.

èGirl Nami1 votes

the problem here is your story. who can believe it? I'm not saying that you're lying but i won't say you spoke the truth

also, a perma-ban means (no offense intended) that you're not welcome here. if they were to lift those accounts people will continue their behavior and that's not something riot wants

Cyonsiaros1 votes

People statistically do continue that behavior despite the bans on their new accounts Riot instructs them to create. Riot does not deny this. It's simply not nearly as effective a system as it could be and its rather awkward to see someone argue the opposite. As far as not believing my story; I was banned in 2011. It's 2017. I don't quite understand what you don't believe. If its the punishment I received because people did not like what I said - thats how Riot handles individuals with perceived to displayed behavioral problems; such as speaking in jest or mocking an individual for play.

Some people are "reformed" many are not. Just as prisons have trouble reforming people. Prisons are not perfect and neither is tribunal.

hshtagniemehrcdu2 votes

{quoted}

People statistically do continue that behavior despite the bans on their new accounts Riot instructs them to create. Riot does not deny this.

Care to show your source?

It's simply not nearly as effective a system as it could be and its rather awkward to see someone argue the opposite.

And unbanning the likes of you would be more effective? Riot tried that already and they had a failure rate of more than 95%. Even if what you say is true, it would still be a worse solution. I dont know how many reform or cease playing, but unless this number is lower then 5%, then unbannung you people would be really really bad.

Some people are "reformed" many are not. Just as prisons have trouble reforming people. Prisons are not perfect and neither is tribunal.

No reason to unban you - wouldn't help anyone, especially as it is very clear that you haven't changed a bit and would still be extremly toxic.

èGirl Nami1 votes

{quoted}

People statistically do continue that behavior despite the bans on their new accounts Riot instructs them to create. Riot does not deny this.

that is incorrect

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=59yU9dAK,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-12-12T18:15:01.350+0000)

The idea behind a perma-ban is that we want them to stop playing League of Legends. It is a way to remove unwelcome players from the community. We don't want them to make a new account. We certainly don't want to create an incentive to create a new account.

this was posted 5 months ago by Tantram in here

Cyonsiaros1 votes

To claim no one has continued to misbehavior and be subject to tribunal after a permanent ban is patently false. Statistically people have been banned and banned again. It is not my job to educate you to this fact as others on these forums could point outs. Several players have several permanent bans. This is a statistic whether you want it to be or not. I did not state it was more or less statically likely; you inferred that. Unless you have data that can contradict those statements I think that can rest.

In regards to Riots policy - They instruct banned players to create new accounts when speaking with specialists. I have several emails indicating exactly that - many of which predate Riot Tantram's tenure at Riot Games and some of which post date his involvement. In some cases they will assist you and depending upon the issue may even transfer assets from permanently banned accounts to new accounts. I cannot speak as to whether or not this ALL has been policy this year but it very much has been the policy in recent years whether you are privy to that information or not. I will not give specifics or offer emails for two reasons: One they are confidential and Riot does not allow me to do so. Two, I can't find myself bothering convincing you when you have no say as an individual in this matter or any matter being discussed here.

EvilDustMan2 votes

{quoted}

People statistically do continue that behavior despite the bans on their new accounts Riot instructs them to create.

[Citation needed]

YerroFever2 votes

{quoted}

People statistically do continue that behavior despite the bans on their new accounts Riot instructs them to create. Riot does not deny this. It's simply not nearly as effective a system as it could be and its rather awkward to see someone argue the opposite. As far as not believing my story; I was banned in 2011. It's 2017. I don't quite understand what you don't believe. If its the punishment I received because people did not like what I said - thats how Riot handles individuals with perceived to displayed behavioral problems; such as speaking in jest or mocking an individual for play.

Some people are "reformed" many are not. Just as prisons have trouble reforming people. Prisons are not perfect and neither is tribunal.

A few things:

  1. I have not seen a red post that says banned people don't reform and continue to be toxic. Can you link to the comment?

  2. Prisons are problematic in the US because the goal of prisons isn't reform in many of the privately owned prisons. In Europe, the penal system is very different. For example, the German prison system is modeled differently.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/this-is-prison-60-minutes-goes-to-germany/

CBS even did a segment on it and showed the difference between how Germans handle prisoners.

  1. The purpose of having lower tiers of punishments is to give players the opportunity to reform. If you were permabanned, you were most likely previously warned and lightly punished. You were most likely given the chance to reform and if you ignored it and dismissed it, it's your own fault for being permabanned.
Cyonsiaros1 votes
  1. Why is a red post needed? Who and what purpose does that serve other than to represent a sanctioned program in a less than positive light? They are running a business. Are you making the claim everyone ever banned has been reformed? You read a red post that described this?

  2. The goal of Riots system is also not reform and that's what I take issue with. Not how I see it. it's a poor excuse of a system if we pretend reform is a priority or concern - its not. St oping the behavior is the concern and years later the behavior continues every day. It has something to do with human nature.

  3. I was not warned at any time of possible account closure only that the "tribunal" was coming. I was one of the first players banned in this fashion and Riot has said that in their correspondence with me. Why you are obsessed with allocating blame or fault is beyond my comprehension. It seems very petty minded and a shortcut to a desired result such as dismissing another human and their plea.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}2. The goal of Riots system is also not reform and that's what I take issue with.

Out of curiosity, how would you design such a system, given the myriad of different reasons for toxic behavior, and the myriad of different techniques needed to address each player's unique situation?

Riot isn't -- and, in my opinion can't be -- in the business of providing therapy for in-game communication or habits. What they DO offer is opportunities to realize and adjust your actions through the warnings that precede most bans (again -- not sure of your specific situation).

If the player does not take that opportunity to seek out ways to reform on their own terms, that isn't Riot's responsibility, or Riot's fault.

YerroFever2 votes

{quoted}

  1. Why is a red post needed? Who and what purpose does that serve other than to represent a sanctioned program in a less than positive light? They are running a business. Are you making the claim everyone ever banned has been reformed? You read a red post that described this?

  2. The goal of Riots system is also not reform and that's what I take issue with. Not how I see it. it's a poor excuse of a system if we pretend reform is a priority or concern - its not. St oping the behavior is the concern and years later the behavior continues every day. It has something to do with human nature.

  3. I was not warned at any time of possible account closure only that the "tribunal" was coming. I was one of the first players banned in this fashion and Riot has said that in their correspondence with me. Why you are obsessed with allocating blame or fault is beyond my comprehension. It seems very petty minded and a shortcut to a desired result such as dismissing another human and their plea.

  1. The red post is needed if you're claiming statistics support it because you have no access to the metrics. Otherwise you're just making things up.

  2. The proposed purpose of Riot's system is stated to reform. How effective that is in reforming is a different issue. Hypothetically speaking, if a system is say like 80% effective and 20% ineffective, just because someone from the 20% says it's not doing what it is claiming to do, does not make it so. The numbers are just hypothetical and are for argument sake and not representative of the true values but are meant as a demonstration as to show you that just stating something to not be true does not make it so.

  3. Riot handed out punishments before Tribunal. I played before the Tribunal and I also participated in the Tribunal. If you recall, the decision of the Tribunal was punish or do not punish. Not how long. The severity of your offenses and how frequently you offended determined your punishment.

If your offenses were so outrageous and so horrible that Rioters believed you were beyond reform, that's something they determined by looking at your behavior. Based on the forums, most toxic people do not fall into that category. Most toxic players have had previous punishments. I have seen one player who had no history at all get permabanned. Everyone else always says "I was never punished" but then a red comes on and corrects them and says there was a history of punishments and the OP never disputes it. There was one instance where I saw someone actually only have no punishments and a red confirmed it but due to the nature of what was said, it was elevated to a permaban.

There is no obsession with placing blame or dehumanizing anyone. The problem is that everyone always claims innocence and cries victim and says "look at me, I'm a person" but never says "oh my god, the people I harassed in game are people."

I don't quite understand what brought the game and eventually society to the point where words were dangerous or that people should be shielded from words, mockery, critique or verbal hazing but alas the game and world went there.

There's a thing called civility. You can criticize people without mocking them or "verbally hazing" them. Tough skin is meant to deal with other people who don't treat you like a human being. Tough skin is not a justification for not treating other people like human beings.

It's like when someone puts a lock on their door, it's to protect themselves from robbers. When someone puts a lock on their door, you are not justified in robbing them.

This is where you went wrong and where you are still wrong.

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