So, Let Me Get This Right

RIP Resonance·May 25, 2016·7 votes·589 views

Let's say a toxic player gets banned for two weeks. It's deserved because some of the shit he said was pretty bad. Five months later, after not getting validly reported, and attempting to reform, said player is permabanned because of a relapse.

According to Riot's team, this is okay.

This is like, "Yeah, you were caught with heroin, so we're taking you to prison for 2-4 years."

Said heroin addict attends rehabilitation programs, and serves their time.

Six years later, said addict is caught with heroin and sentenced to either life in prison without parole, or the death penalty.

This is not okay.

38 Comments

eldurisMay 25, 20165 votes

Five months later, after not getting validly reported, and attempting to reform, said player is permabanned.

So I think your concern is with people getting permabanned and not being reported for anything to trigger it. There are a few things that this person could be banned for:

The instant feedback system scans for extreme racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. and punishes accordingly. If they were banned by this, they deserve it.
Using third party modifications to gain an unfair advantage is usually coupled with reports, but not always. Again, would be deserved.
Elo boosting other accounts for profit. I don't see any room in the community for this.

So, like Zielmann said, it depends on what they were banned for. There's a lot of missing context in this hypothetical, but hopefully this post helps you understand the different things that people can be banned for without being reported.

RIP ResonanceMay 25, 20161 votes

I'm not entirely sure how long it takes for edits to go through, but I ended up making a crucial mistake in my hypothetical situation.

Hello I am BirdMay 25, 20164 votes

A part of me really likes thinking of a permanent suspension being the same as the death penalty ;v;

ZielmannMay 25, 20163 votes

No, it wouldn't be okay if that happened, because anybody getting punished off of invalid reports is not okay.

If this is in fact the case, said player could submit a support ticket to have their punishment reviewed. Riot will remove the ban if it was truly a mistake. But I would question what exactly it was that got this person banned. There have been a couple ban waves recently for other things, so perhaps this person was caught and banned for something else and is mistakenly blaming the instant feedback system. We'd have to know what the ban email said to confirm either way.

RIP ResonanceMay 25, 20161 votes

I apologize for my lack of clarity. I will now edit the thread. Let's say said player relapses, and is toxic in a single game in the future.

ZielmannMay 25, 20161 votes

If it was truly a single game relapse, then whatever was said must have been very extreme to receive any sort of punishment from that game alone. Barring extreme behavior, it takes quite a few games of recurring bad behavior to receive a punishment.

RIP ResonanceMay 25, 20161 votes

In my experience, toxicity is always extreme.

I'll be using myself as an example:

Roughly two or three months ago I received a two week ban because I was angry that I queued with a 4-man premade, when I simply wanted to practice my Shen top. Random 5 man dives on my lane stressed me out, and it was like leaving the base was overextending. I ended up saying quite a few things I shouldn't have, and received a ban that was clearly deserved. I ended up adding the premade I was with once my ban was finished and apologized to them.

Prior to this incident, I had received a chat restriction for ten games which happened the summer of last year.

I've made genuine attempts to reform, but it's difficult. It's a habit. I've actually had an easier time trying to quit smoking, which I have had success in doing.

My main cause for concern is that I'm afraid I will be permanently suspended if I do happen to relapse months from now, after months of constant good behavior.

disregardableMay 25, 20161 votes

Extreme toxicity means hate speech, racial slurs, and death threats. Most people don't act like that.

ZielmannMay 25, 20161 votes

Yeah, extreme toxicity that will jump players straight to a permaban is more in the line of excessive hate speech or significant personal threats. But a more moderate amount of hate speech has been known to cause players to skip one tier of punishment. So if their next punishment would normally have been a 2-week ban, they would actually skip that and jump to a permanent ban instead.

With that in mind, here's how reform works as best we know. There's no set time period at this point, but over time if players are actively neutral or better in their games, they can climb back down the punishment tiers. That is, if you just had a 2-week ban and you're at least neutral for a while, you can drop down to where your next punishment would be another 2-week ban instead of a permanent ban. Even longer, and you drop down another tier, and then another, at which point your account would be back in good standing. Yes, Riot does have a permanent record of any and all punishments issued to your account, but that doesn't mean your punishment tier will permanently increase for life.

So in your case, it's been 2-3 months since your 2-week ban. If you've been at least neutral for long enough to climb down a tier, then awesome. However, that doesn't still make you immune to a permanent ban if your behavior in a relapse is severe enough to merit skipping a tier. On the other hand, if your behavior over those 2-3 months has been consistently slightly negative, though not enough to merit another punishment, you might not actually have managed to drop down that tier yet.

There's a lot of theoretical in this conversation, and that's fine if you don't want to get into details of your exact behavior. It just becomes up to you to honestly evaluate how bad you get in your relapses, and also whether or not you've truly been neutral or better since the 2-week ban.

WolfessMay 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=RIP Resonance,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=EmAmEt5E,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-05-25T14:43:00.058+0000)

I apologize for my lack of clarity. I will now edit the thread. Let's say said player relapses, and is toxic in a single game in the future.

being "reformed" or "rehabilitated" does not remove any priors. You're still liable for your own conduct. Besides, if you relapse then you weren't really rehabilitated or reformed at all, it just means you were trying to fend off the urges, but the urges were still there and not taken care of.

FiruMay 25, 20163 votes

This analogy is incorrect. In League, it is possible to get a completely clean record if you've not been punished for a certain amount of time. The only time you are permanently marked is when your account is permanently banned.

In your analogy (which I still don't agree with), it is like a person becomes addicted but then if they behave long enough any dependencies on the drug is erased forever. But once again, let me state, relating drug addiction to toxicity in game is not a good parallel by any means.

RIP ResonanceMay 25, 20161 votes

While, my analogy is a bit extreme, I felt that it fit. Also, "it is possible to get a completely clean record if you've not been punished for a certain amount of time" is not true at all, according to Riot Neurocat. I suggest taking a look at this thread: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Boqd81O0-upcoming-upgrades-to-chat-restrictions

FiruMay 25, 20162 votes

There have been numerous posts since by Rioters explaining how good behavior can drop you down to lower tiers (or no tier) of "risk". I don't think Riot Neurocat even explicitly states in that post that punishment tiers are permanent.

RIP ResonanceMay 25, 20161 votes

In the linked thread he responds to several people asking a similar question as myself. He says there is a "system in place" as vaguely as possible. He also explicitly states "An account will generally have a permanent record of past punishment received." Meaning that, reform isn't actually going to reduce punishments in the event of a relapse. He further goes onto say this:

Punishments will rapidly escalate for those who don’t reform. Here’s how it works:
First offense: 10 game chat restriction
Second offense: 25 game chat restriction
Third offense: 2 week ban
Fourth offense: Permanent ban

What I'm saying is that if someone like myself has made attempts to reform, it's actually meaningless as it will always be tracked if you have reformed, and it takes more than half a year of not receiving valid reports to have your tier drop.

FiruMay 25, 20161 votes

My point is that it is possible that people can be dropped tier. The fairness of how long it takes is another discussion.

AraMoOseMay 25, 20162 votes

I'd like to suggest a different, but similar analogy : Drunk driving.

You are driving drunk and you cause damage to a person or property. You are arrested, have to go to rehab and so on.

Then you do it again. You are arrested, slightly harsher sentence.

Then you do it again.

At what point does the community realize that you are not going to stop? Every time we put you back on the street we are putting the community at risk.

RIP ResonanceMay 25, 20161 votes

You seem to have missed the point entirely.

You need to realize there are people out there who go out of their way to not be toxic, but occasionally struggle due to issues IRL or in-game. In my opinion, it is not okay to be toxic, but players who make attempts to reform should be rewarded by having their level of toxicity go down after periods of not being punished or validly reported.

AraMoOseMay 25, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=RIP Resonance,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=EmAmEt5E,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-05-25T15:26:25.618+0000)

You seem to have missed the point entirely.

You need to realize there are people out there who go out of their way to not be toxic, but occasionally struggle due to issues IRL or in-game. In my opinion, it is not okay to be toxic, but players who make attempts to reform should be rewarded by having their level of toxicity go down after periods of not being punished or validly reported.

I think it may be you who is missing the point. Consider the following :

You need to realize there are people out there who go out of their way to not -drive drunk-, but occasionally struggle due to issues IRL or in-game. In my opinion, it is not okay to -drive drunk-, but players who make attempts to reform should be rewarded by having their level of -criminality- go down after periods of not being punished or validly -arrested-.

Further, I would like to bring up the obvious point that in both the analogy AND the actual context we're referring to (toxicity), your punishment level DOES go down when either a. You demonstrate intent to improve b. You do not reoffend for a significant period of time. So I don't even think the premise you're relying on to make your point is valid in the first place.

Troll for TrumpMay 25, 20161 votes

3 months without toxicity is basically impossible.

And I mean all types of toxicity.

Ping spamming apparantly can't be detected by Riot's system either..

AraMoOseMay 25, 20164 votes

{quoted}

3 months without toxicity is basically impossible.

And I mean all types of toxicity.

Ping spamming apparantly can't be detected by Riot's system either..

You're wrong on both counts.

Troll for TrumpMay 27, 20161 votes

Nope, they can't detect ping spam well.

And I can't be "wrong" on an opinion.

RIP ResonanceMay 27, 20161 votes

I do wish they would allow you to mute a player's pings.

And no, 3 months is completely possible. I went an entire year without receiving a single punishment from Riot.

Troll for TrumpMay 27, 20161 votes

3 months without toxicity.

Not 3 months without punishment. Especially with all the things people do to provoke, you, which does, yes, include ping spamming.

RIP ResonanceMay 25, 20161 votes

I'm not going to entertain this idea, nor anymore of your posts for that matter. Good riddance.

AraMoOseMay 25, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=RIP Resonance,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=EmAmEt5E,comment-id=0006000000000001,timestamp=2016-05-25T16:04:29.712+0000)

I'm not going to entertain this idea, nor anymore of your posts for that matter. Good riddance.

Which is kind of the point. You're hurtful to the cause of Equal Rights and you should stop trying to help until you learn dialectics and are willing to engage other people's ideas instead of trying to bully yours in.

Mig89May 25, 20162 votes

Yes. Just because you waited months to be toxic again doesn't mean the situation shouldn't escalate. I'm tired of the hate speech and extreme negativity. I don't understand getting that mad in a game. If something makes you feel the need to act that way then why even play. I know i don't speak for the community but i love seeing people getting banned for toxic and then complain that they werent that toxic or werent toxic in a little while. Good Bye.

RIP ResonanceMay 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Just because you waited months to be toxic again

Downvoted at this point. One doesn't wait to be toxic, it's a relapse for a reason. It's life, and it happens.

Mig89May 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=RIP Resonance,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=EmAmEt5E,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2016-05-25T19:24:17.863+0000)

Downvoted at this point. One doesn't wait to be toxic, it's a relapse for a reason. It's life, and it happens.

If a person is a toxic they're always going to be toxic. There is no reforming. They make the conscious decision to decide when to be toxic. A video game damn sure isn't reforming personalities, it's just forcing/nudging people to realize there are consequences for their actions. Getting in trouble for acting a certain way and then deciding to do it 3 months later is you making the decision that you don't care about the punishment/ your venting outweighs it. "it's life" is a very immature/ignorant excuse. Almost any type of punishment you receive in the real world escalates.

RIP ResonanceMay 25, 20161 votes

Not true at all. Riot has studdies saying that 92% of people reform after their first punishment. There's a lot of data on this that proves you're wrong. Not to mention, you're bitter.

Kei143May 25, 20161 votes

Well, it depends on what the first 14-day ban and the permaban was for.

If the first was for toxicity and the 2nd was for 3rd party program use, I'm OK with that perma.

DrCyanideMay 25, 20161 votes

Let's say a toxic player gets banned for two weeks. It's deserved because some of the shit he said was pretty bad. Five months later, after not getting validly reported, and attempting to reform, said player is permabanned.

Do you have a specific example of this happening to someone? Because to my knowledge the system doesn't work that way.

Reports are validated before anything happens
Even if invalid reports got though, It would take multiple games of invalid reports for anything to happen
Over the course of 5 months your punishment tier would drop, resulting in you getting a two week ban if you did get punished

For said player to be permabanned there has to be more to the story.

FovereMay 25, 20161 votes

I'd guess its the severity of the comments that cause the ban/punishment.

I've gotten a few 10 game restrictions across the span of a few months but I an not generally very aggressive and don't use strong language. (Both directly from games with 3-4x premades. Just a coincidence I'm sure.)

If you end up going ape shit at some folk you might earn yourself a ban without any of the lesser punishments.

To add to the analogy, its like a drug addict relapsing after a few years, entering a state of psychosis, and causing another person severe harm/death. Just because you have a clean record doesnt mean you're going to get misdemeanor possession. Riot has showing increasingly less tolerance for certain kinds of speech, and will ban for you w/o warning if you use it.

Mig89May 25, 20161 votes

And in real life it takes years for things to come off of your record. Not months or weeks. years.

Mig89May 25, 20161 votes

92% may not do it again but that urge to never goes away. The 8% decided it was worth it to run their mouths(fingers?) again and get the hammer. Your example of a drug user getting more time for the second offense is accurate. they may not get life but the punishment will escalate. Im not bitter. Its just how life is lol

AstôlfoMay 26, 20161 votes

Uh, let me help correct you. "Help, I got banned for being a dick."

RIP ResonanceMay 27, 20161 votes

I didn't get banned at all, prior to making this thread, aside from a punishment that I deserved that happened months ago, and since have made valid attempts to reform. Reading comprehension must be at an all time low in NA.

Let me help correct you, sir.

"Help! I browse the community forums to spew toxicity in the comments without actually bothering to read the thread!"

AraMoOseMay 27, 20161 votes

These are not statements of opinion you are expressing. They are statements of fact.

3 months without toxicity is not only possible, but easy. Which makes you wrong on the first count.

The system can detect ping spamming, which makes you wrong on the second count.

RIP ResonanceMay 27, 20161 votes

I like it how someone took the time out of their day to downvote all of my replies to this thread.

[{quoted}](name=RIP Resonance,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=EmAmEt5E,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-25T20:16:43.403+0000)

Not true at all. Riot has studdies saying that 92% of people reform after their first punishment. There's a lot of data on this that proves you're wrong. Not to mention, you're bitter.

When you can actually state a fact proven by Riot's research, and still get downvoted. I do love this community.