There is a distinction between self-defense and retaliation.
Self-defense: Taking action to prevent harm (muting) Retaliation: Causing harm because you were harmed (flaming flamers)
Riot encourages the former and disallows the latter.
ModThe Djinn18 votesWell said.
CaptainChinstrap14 votesSorry, but muting is not self-defense. It is definitely a useful tool, but if someone comes and tries to assault you on the street.. I would love to see your definition of self-defense put to the test and see how that works out for you.
redniwediS25 votesSee, this isn't real life, so real life examples don't really work.
In reality sometimes a physical response is necessary to defend yourself from the actions of another. Words won't always stop someone, and you can't always just walk away, so it is acceptable in some situations to fight back.
On the internet all you're being attacked with is words, which can be completely blocked with 100% success without having to resort to retaliation. You can perfectly defend yourself without having to be like the other guy, and so there is no legitimate reason to do so that would still be considered self defense.
CaptainChinstrap8 votesSee, this isn't real life, so real life examples don't really work.
In reality sometimes a physical response is necessary to defend yourself from the actions of another. Words won't always stop someone, and you can't always just walk away, so it is acceptable in some situations to fight back.
On the internet all you're being attacked with is words, which can be completely blocked with 100% success without having to resort to retaliation. You can perfectly defend yourself without having to be like the other guy, and so there is no legitimate reason to do so that would still be considered self defense.
Man I agree with the last couple sentences. People SHOULD USE THE MUTE FUNCTION to block the so aclled "harmless words" you speak of. The problem is Riot has glorified a "report culture" where people get off on destroying other people's property/investment into an account. IF THERE WERE NO PUNISHMENTS FOR CHAT, I would completely agree. However, with the SJW and offended culture that this community has, muting is definitely not self-defense here.
redniwediS11 votesI don't even see it as SJW culture. I don't get offended when people throw around horrible words while flaming me, I just see someone having a temper tantrum who needs to be shown that that behavior is not okay.
That's the main reason I report, because that sort of behavior just shouldn't have a place here.
CaptainChinstrap7 votesI don't even see it as SJW culture. I don't get offended when people throw around horrible words while flaming me, I just see someone having a temper tantrum who needs to be shown that that behavior is not okay.
That's the main reason I report, because that sort of behavior just shouldn't have a place here.
Well no offense, but you are blind then. That is all this entire community is. It's a bunch of offended babies who can't take responsibility for their actions. They go 0-10 but continue to fight... someone asks them to stop feeding so they have a chance to win and they reply "STFU REPORTED." It's literally like this every single game, no one can say "my bad" or "i'm sorry I'm not trying to lose the game," the response to any kind of suggestion or criticism (constructive or not) is always "REPORTED."
Silly Valley9 votesWell no offense, but you are blind then. That is all this entire community is. It's a bunch of offended babies who can't take responsibility for their actions. They go 0-10 but continue to fight... someone asks them to stop feeding so they have a chance to win and they reply "STFU REPORTED." It's literally like this every single game, no one can say "my bad" or "i'm sorry I'm not trying to lose the game," the response to any kind of suggestion or criticism (constructive or not) is always "REPORTED."
That's not sjw culture at all. In that context, that's being a child, not an sjw. You people love to just make stuff up and pretend you're at war with some cult.
Get over it. You will be reported for saying negative words because that's the NORMAL way of treating that behavior.
woodvsmurph4 votesWhile it might not be sjw culture, you are basically saying you otherwise agree with him via the wording of your post. You should really read more closely instead of just assuming the worst of others and downvoting or writing comments which escalate a battle of words rather than seek to reach common understanding and promote positivity.
"get over it. you will be reported for saying negative words because..." Is that not in fact what you are doing to him with your post? Yes, it is. You are using negative words and promoting an escalation of unreasonable hateful or at least argumentative posts without either side actually stopping to CONSIDER what they other is actually writing.
Note - his post says that basically asking someone to "pls stop feeding" gets a response of "stfu reported". Now, "pls stop feeding" is perhaps not the best way of communicating, but it is definitely not toxic if said in the right context. And a reply of "stfu reported" would indeed be toxic and uncalled for in most cases. By arguments for the very side of this "debate" you represent, the "stfu reported" response would either be uncalled for toxicity (and worthy to be punished) or retaliatory "flaming the flamer" and worthy to be punished. This is what captainchinstrap is saying and it falls in line with what your "side" of the "debate" is arguing. So, rather than try to flame and destroy captainchinstrap because you don't think it's sjw culture, explain that you don't think it has anything to do with sjw, but also realize that you in fact AGREE with the rest of what he's trying to explain - albeit maybe not perfectly.
Otherwise, you yourself are doing to him exactly what you and others are arguing is WRONG to do in game. I get you might have missed this when you read his post, but hopefully you REALIZE this now and will reconsider your own attitude.[zombie-brand-clap]
C9 Squeeky 3 votesflaming a flamer = retaliation, according to OP reporting a flamer = still a form of retaliation
C9 Squeeky 3 votesIsn't reporting a person taking retaliation action? You're not just "letting it go" or pretending it didn't happen.
It Hertz When IP1 votesNo, because the report-er is not in charge of punishments. All they are doing is leaving a tiny notification for The Man that they think this gy's breaking the rules. That's it. Ultimately it's up to Riot to punish or not punish.
C9 Squeeky 3 votesSo taking someone to court isn't retaliation, got it.
pZoCeDonna1 votesSo taking someone to court isn't retaliation, got it.
Actually, it isn't.
If we have a contract and you don't pay me/honor your end of the deal, I'm not taking you to court for retaliation, I'm taking you to court to have the contract honored.
If I report someone that is breaking the rules, I'm not doing so to "retaliate", I'm doing so to help ensure that rules are enforced. People that break the rules are not simply committing a 'wrong' against me, they're doing so against the entire community.
Thee Pie Man1 votesI'd argue that reporting a flamer without saying anything is a response to the actions taken within game, rather than call it retaliation. Unless you're openly saying. "Well you're reported" which there's really no reason to do because it might tilt them further and cause the attitude to expand and become an even bigger problem than it was.
If someone is vengefully saying they will report someone for what they are doing that's retaliation, if a person thinks in their head that they are getting back at them for the issues in game, it's more like revenge than retaliation, retaliation would be a counter version of whatever was being brought down. People that "retaliate" and play the flaming game in response are flamers as well.
You're kind of arguing semantics. We can't "know" exactly why a report is made, but I'd chalk it up to a response to an action that isn't acceptable behavior more often than someone trying to get revenge/have some form of retaliation.
RNG H3R01 votes"this has no effect on me" "people should get banned for this" Redni, you gotta pick one..
redniwediS2 votesNo, I don't. This isn't a black and white issue, and I don't have to pick one of the "sides" people always argue.
I don't think that sort of behavior is something this game should allow, and I also don't get offended by the people who exhibit that behavior. I'm not going to change just so I can fit into some neat category.
woodvsmurph4 votesThe other problem with just muting is when... the guy or girl who flames you keeps doing so and convinces your teammates YOU are in fact bad and gets them on board... leading to 2-4 man reports plus possible reports by other team even though it is the flamer who made a horrible play and then decided to blame everything on you. And while you "acted in self defense" by muting, you will be far more likely to receive punishment than said teammate who flamed you even though they are in the wrong and you are not.
Trust me, I've had it happen in seasons past where I got punished by ifs because 4 man report of me when I did not flame a flamer and he convinced team he was right. Not recently, but it has happened. So your idea is nice and maybe correct in theory, but in practice it can fail. People can be very nasty if they want to be - scarier than we ever dare to really contemplate.
redniwediS4 votesIt has been years since the number of reports in a single game has mattered. You're remembering correctly about the past, but that past is long since gone.
Now reports flag a game for review, and each game can only have one flag. Each additional report is wasted.
[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=9VrUtrJo,comment-id=0000000000020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-27T18:28:29.209+0000)
It's actually really simple.
if (reports > 0) { review(); }
LordGeovanni1 votesNot true I have Since season 4 Adopted a Dont respond Attitude to people flaming though i didnt mute them due to the off chance that some of the actually call plays In back then i could Pretty much ignore it and not get mad. But i got Messages of unsportsmanlike behavior a few times When I got reported often for not playing a certain champion or playing champions in certain roles or doing Poorly As the only Tank on the team who has to engage fights not get followed up on then i die alone. All of this got thrown in to troll So i got warnings and 14 day bans. And this same Reports flag a game for review has been their policy from mid season 3 and ive been expeirencing this from season 4- season 5 . It wasnt until i decided to use chat to say im not feeding you guys are sitting back and not following up/ not pressureing the lane you are in so they collapse on me/ playing safe back line carries but dont follow up when i engage then wonder why we lose the fight. that my bans and warnings started to go down and stop The same reports flag a game review and Amount of reports dont matter was around when The support Nunu and Support Singed Controversies came about when both got punished for the sheer amount of Reports they got
redniwediS2 votesGetting reports causes a reminder to show up, but that reminder shows up regardless of whether or not the report is considered legitimate.
Everything I have said here is true. If you got a 14 day ban it was either a long time ago, before the current system was in place (which is what we're talking about) or you're not telling the whole truth.
LordGeovanni1 votesYou dont agree so its not the truth k.
redniwediS1 votesYou've got it backward actually. It's not the truth, so I don't agree. You're running off speculation, I'm not.
LordGeovanni1 votesIm sorry that i didnt know that you lived my experiences and i didnt. how am i running off of speculation when im telling you it happened to me not that a heard it from some one even though i did hear about the support tahm and nunu games on you tube and on these very same boards from rioters. I shouldnt take everything i hear as truth though you right.
redniwediS1 votesPersonal experience is often faulty.
I posted a quote from a Riot employee, and the first thing you replied to me with was "not true" and a wall of text with no facts or evidence at all. We're done here.
LordGeovanni1 votesYou cant trust hear say you cant trust experience. By that logic nothing in this world has any merit. everything is either or in some manner or another.
redniwediS1 votesThe only thing worth trusting is that which can be reliably repeated. Humans lie and observe incorrectly, but sample size can make up for the latter part.
LUXANNA HOSHIDO2 votesSorry, but muting is not self-defense. It is definitely a useful tool, but if someone comes and tries to assault you on the street.. I would love to see your definition of self-defense put to the test and see how that works out for you.
while I understand where you're coming from, the context of the post heavily implies that he means self-defense... in the video game
C9 Squeeky 2 votesI think "self-defense" is taken out of context from the get-go in the OP. It's a false premise and therefore flawed logic and arguments in this thread that is leading to these weird discussions.
Snowman Arc7 votesIf you are out in the street and getting hit, self - defense isn't running away or covering your face, it's actually retaliating (with self - defense moves) to repel the threat. I don't wanna be toxic and try to avoid altercations, but I won't be a bitch, especially behind my screen.
Abyss Gear Syxx3 votes[{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=EfltUKg2,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-04-09T19:07:54.429+0000)
If you are out in the street and getting hit, self - defense isn't running away or covering your face, it's actually retaliating (with self - defense moves) to repel the threat. I don't wanna be toxic and try to avoid altercations, but I won't be a bitch, especially behind my screen.
Self defense isn't only defending yourself but actually shutting down the threat as well. You can't actually defend yourself because people in this game don't comprehend when someone is in the wrong. What they would rather do is respond at the first thing said, rather than comprehend the situation.
It's a really sad way of doing things, but you can see exactly what I mean in an ARAMs match. Rather than most teams having a plan of attack and working together it's more of waiting to see if someone gets caught out and THEN everyone does the plays they could've done all along off of that.
If the ADC for instance is doing good, but can't go in because the support isn't doing anything besides siphoning off half the exp, then a lane swap of some sort should happen. What happens in LoL instead is we tell the person to deal with it, when if they are complaining or talking to you about it, that means that they feel like it would be a waste of time to continue doing so. I've seen such small actions as swapping lanes or even letting the support roam cause the game to turn in a favorable way. But it's far more common for people to not only for allies to harass one another and abuse ping for things they don't like, because they are afraid of getting reported for being toxic verbally, it's also more common for people to think that because they 'understand the meta' that they don't need to adapt to the situation at hand and have shitty communication as a result.
Also, I believe that Riot encourages these problems to happen. A player can hold their allies hostage. If they didn't encourage this, then if I were them I'd put a report system wherever there was a chat log. If it's before game and a person is being reported by a 3:1, that person should be kicked out of que, receive a chat restriction and a restriction from ranked in general. Many toxic situations happen before the game starts. I am not talking about accidentally banning someone's champ either.
When it comes down to it. "self-defense" in this game is always late and doesn't function at all.
And even if said system that I am talking about is abusable, then maybe all parties involved should receive a 30 min restriction even if they are innocent while it's reviewed. Most people get tilted and need that time to simmer down anyways.
Verxint5 votes"wow how can you can for flaming people need to not be such sensitive babies" "wow this guy flamed me I have to respond and defend myself"
Yoinked Your Ult4 votes[deleted]
Sassmast3r2 votesNot if all children are raised with this retard mentality lol
3TWarrior3 voteswhich also has almost 0% chance of happening while there is any instability in the economy and work force at all XD
both parents work and kids are frequently unsupervised with scholastic expectations throwing more turmoil into the mix
Hibeki1 votesPlus this isnt a natural way of teaching. There is a natural competitive and drive to be better than others, its just only in THIS culture are you not allowed to vocalize it in any way.
MOBA's are exclusive to this PC setting in competitive history. Fighting games and FPS's is loaded with trash talking because thats the nature of competition. Riot, Overwatch and the like is NEVER going to reach even remotely close to their goal because they are trying to censor and defy human nature.
'go die in a hole where i fucked your mother' borderline not ok 'gg get gud scrub' totally fine
But both of those are equally bad in rito's eyes.
Arisha the Dark2 votesPlus this isnt a natural way of teaching. There is a natural competitive and drive to be better than others, its just only in THIS culture are you not allowed to vocalize it in any way.
MOBA's are exclusive to this PC setting in competitive history. Fighting games and FPS's is loaded with trash talking because thats the nature of competition. Riot, Overwatch and the like is NEVER going to reach even remotely close to their goal because they are trying to censor and defy human nature.
'go die in a hole where i fucked your mother' borderline not ok 'gg get gud scrub' totally fine
But both of those are equally bad in rito's eyes.
Because they are equally bad. Healthy competition is fine, but what you describe is toxic competition.
Being better then someone is a completely different thing from being a jerk. You can win in a competition and still be graceful about it. Showing respect to loosing side. Rubbing it in their faces is not necessary for winning.
Also, "human nature"? Did you get that from "Purge" or something? Let us release the beast! Tha whole argument that it's natural for people to be agressive towards each other is a complete bullshit, that jerks use to justify their behavior. Nothing else.
Shatter the Sun3 votesSomeone says something offensive or derogatory towards me? Muted. Not a second thought. I dont even say anything. Just open tab and click that mute button next to their name and move on. If its that important that they need to tell me then I guess they shouldnt have said what they said.
There is no "self-defense" online. There is nothing to defend besides your EGO. Words are just that, words. Same goes with real life. For instance. Someone calls you a racial slur just ignore them. Its only when they get physical that you have to act. But everything before that is completely avoidable. Cant tell you how many times during high school someone called me something offensive and I just went back on my phone minding my own business.
3TWarrior1 votesgood luck with that when you can hear a conversation across the room with your ears covered and being universally excluded as that weird kid that always has something wrong
also, most cases of people who ignore the problems around them have suffered so much damage that there is little more that can be done to them and are unstable as a result
Shatter the Sun1 votesgood luck with that when you can hear a conversation across the room with your ears covered and being universally excluded as that weird kid that always has something wrong
also, most cases of people who ignore the problems around them have suffered so much damage that there is little more that can be done to them and are unstable as a result
I guess its just different from person to person. My cousin is ready to fight if someone says something offensive towards her. I cant see the point in fighting or even wasting energy to get mad at someone for SAYING things at me.
Its not a problem unless you make it one. My friends and I make fun of other races including our own and call each other "offensive names". If someone else came up to me and used those words with malicious intent it wouldnt make me bat an eye because all they are doing is just talking.
RNG H3R01 voteswords kill dude..
Border Knight3 votesToxicity should have never been a reportable offence to start with, trolling and sabotating the team are absolutely a no-no, but flaming?
What is this, kindergarten? riot is a teacher we're supposed to tell when someone say a mean word?
Muting should always be an option, but reporting someone for saying "fuck" is totally excessive.
"Stick and stones may break my bones, but words cannot hurt me"
Trias00011 votes[{quoted}](name=Border Knight,realm=EUW,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=EfltUKg2,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-04-09T19:33:43.061+0000)
What is this, kindergarten?
No, it isn't, and that's precisely why we're required to behave like adults.
Border Knight3 votesAdults still mocks,swears and insults, nothing wrong with it, especially if done in a subtle, smart way. (extra points for being funny).
One thing that i love about playing older games from time to time (like tf2 or wc3) is that there wont be any touchy guy reporting you for using meanie words, you can say what you want, they can say what they want, you can / ignore em or just answer them in proper fashion.
Policing words is a waste of time and usually end in abuse from the autority, becouse "muh feelings".
Trash talking and flaming have always been a staple of gaming (or internet in general), is actually one of the best things, being able to say what you cant IRL, no point into turning also the virtual world in the same exact oppressive copy of reality in every aspect.
Arisha the Dark3 votes[{quoted}](name=Border Knight,realm=EUW,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=EfltUKg2,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2018-04-09T21:49:57.009+0000)
Adults still mocks,swears and insults, nothing wrong with it, especially if done in a subtle, smart way. (extra points for being funny).
Yes, and physical age is the same thing as mental age. If you didn't get sarcasm, they are not the same thing. Just because someone is over 20-years old, doesn't mean they are "adults". "Adults" who mock and insult other people for personal benefit, are not adults to begin with. Sure you can swear as an adult, for as long as it's not targeted at anyone or is meant as a joke.
Trash talking and flaming have always been a staple of gaming (or internet in general), is actually one of the best things, being able to say what you cant IRL, no point into turning also the virtual world in the same exact oppressive copy of reality in every aspect.
Yes, and slavery has been a staple of many cultures for thousands of years. Why not keep it? Oh, yes, it's because as human beings we can evolve as culture. Yes, in yearly gaming harassment has been considered a part of experience, but now we finaly starting to understand that it's wrong and changing it.
Border Knight1 votes[{quoted}](name=Arisha the Dark,realm=EUNE,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=EfltUKg2,comment-id=000b000000000001,timestamp=2018-04-10T06:32:02.892+0000)
Yes, and physical age is the same thing as mental age. If you didn't get sarcasm, they are not the same thing. Just because someone is over 20-years old, doesn't mean they are "adults". "Adults" who mock and insult other people for personal benefit, are not adults to begin with. Sure you can swear as an adult, for as long as it's not targeted at anyone or is meant as a joke.
Arbitrary definition dosent matter, an adult is someone over 18 years old (change from country to country ofc), the whole mental age is unimportant, it's too blurry as definition and as mentioned before, arbitrary. People insults others even at the maximum levels of political scene, say what you want about politicians being corrupt and spineless, but calling them not adults feels pretty weird.
Yes, and slavery has been a staple of many cultures for thousands of years. Why not keep it? Oh, yes, it's because as human beings we can evolve as culture. Yes, in yearly gaming harassment has been considered a part of experience, but now we finaly starting to understand that it's wrong and changing it.
We left slavery behind becouse it was unproductive, not becouse of "muh morality". Sure there were morals issue, but in the long run having a salaried worker will benefit the economy and society way more, also, with a paid citizien, you dont risk (most of the time) insurgency and people fleeing from your workplace, the moment you cant get a reliable and constant amount of slaves is the moment things start getting to the worst (pax romana comes to mind).
Anyway no, every from of censorship will inevitably bring to the next step, you can either have freedom of speech or control, if there were no means for reporting toxicity, people would mute way more or just take things as they are, not trying to force everything into a 1984 when you cant even express yourself (the whole korea issue with the american streamer is self evbidet at this point, let toxicity be and punish people who sabotage the game, not that hurt your feelings).
Thee Pie Man1 votesPeople are perfectly free to be toxic, but the rules are that if they are? There's consequences. They aren't being censored they are being told from the get go the rules then ignoring them just because they decided that they want to ruin other people's experiences/days for their own amusement/feelings/etc. Which is ethically messed up.
There's a humongous difference between banter, and being toxic which I don't believe you're separating. I've never had a single report as far as I know- never even had the indicator for sportsmanlike conduct being violated or whatever it is.
Banter example for {winning}: "Wow, I can't believe we won that. Maybe you shouldn't overextend next time X[player] >:P" -subtle insult but gives possible helpful tip for next time.
Toxic example of {winning}: (Starts spamming) "EZ" "I can't believe how much X[player] sucked so much" "your poor team xDDD"
Banter **after a kill)): "Huehue, gotcha!"
Toxic ((after a kill)): "GG EZ nubs you should just uninstall the game. I bet you're tired from hearing me F*** your mum all night- but that doesn't excuse your misplays!"
As I'll reiterate, people are more than free to type whatever they want. But within the confines of what is declared by the rules. If you're being seen as a toxic person over and over? You deserve the ban 99.9% of the time.
I'd like to also make a note that "Toxic" is defined by each individual's perception and what is toxic to some, might not be toxic to others. That's why it's important as a community to decide what rules should be enforced. If people are reporting people- that means that for those people that person was toxic. These individuals that never have met each other are reporting a person they've never met before. That says a lot more about that person than it does about the system.
Trias0003 votesI once got a chat restriction for retaliating to flamers. I don't believe it was entirely justified. I myself wouldn't punish someone for that. But I agree that I shouldn't have done that. For at least two reasons:
YoNightmare73 votesRetaliation: thornmail
The Ecdysiast3 votesNo, it's because Riot supports the removal of basic human rights.
With the existence of muting, there is no excuse for disallowing retaliation.
