Is advising bad?

heroikc·Apr 17, 2018·1 votes·2,667 views

So yeah, just started a game (A normal draft) where I was an facing a , barely one minute in, I tried to suggest a gameplan for the team fight phase of the game to deal with mundo. A mere contingency in case I couldn't shut him down. builds and builds . Nothing abrasive and no hurry in it. Just suggestions for later portion of the game.

And then the support butts in and starts yelling at me for giving "bad advise" and not to bother because its a normal draft. Now tell me; is it truly wrong to give advice in a normals match, good or bad?

25 Comments

ModArticus43Apr 17, 20184 votes

Consider this when you try communicating with your team. This is just some basic-ish psychology regarding human interaction.

People feel the need to be respected.

People would rather be asked than told to do something.

People have a desire to know why.

People prefer to have options over threats.

People want to have a second chance.

This is why pings are so great, because they only convey an alert, not necessarily a command (though some people view it that way). I'm not suggesting to not use chat, but I think most people playing League are so hard-set on their opinion of how to play they don't consider other perspectives, especially in the heat of the moment.

heroikcApr 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Consider this when you try communicating with your team. This is just some basic-ish psychology regarding human interaction.

This is why pings are so great, because they only convey an alert, not necessarily a command (though some people view it that way). I'm not suggesting to not use chat, but I think most people playing League are so hard-set on their opinion of how to play they don't consider other perspectives, especially in the heat of the moment.

Admittedly, I may have been a bit blunt, but I did give reasons to why and used no threats. It was also more of a heads-up than anything. Heck I don't think the Vlad and Ashe (the two I addressed) responded to me; it was just Malph jumping in from left field.

Also, may I have clarification on point 5 (People want to have a second chance)? What does it mean?

NirvøyApr 17, 20181 votes

By your logic and reasoning there is no need for an ingame chat even if you say u don't suggest it. Your comment concludes that anything that is not glorifying someone else is a positive way is bad. Anything that is neutral is also bad in most cases. Assuming OP is honest and giving the full picture

People feel the need to be respected.

How did he disrespect anyone by making a completely valid and logical suggestion based on the situation?

People would rather be asked than told to do something.

A suggestion is not a command. Even if someone tells you to do something doesn't mean you should lash out against them or display toxicity ingame. If I tell my supp to buy wards cause we need vision that doesn't give them the right to be toxic towards me regardless of what they think/ the circumstances.

People have a desire to know why.

Yes humans are curious by nature but in this case the supp had no intentions to why, he simply disregards the advice given cause he thinks its bad, doesn't explain why and brushes it off with the excuse of "its just a normal"

People prefer to have options over threats.

In what way , shape or form has OP threatened anyone? Even if lets say these players a low elo and doesn't understand the game well enough and might feel inferior because someone else might be more knowledgeable than them it still doesn't excuse you from poor behavior if it results in such. That's jealousy and envy cause someone else is better off than you in some way.

People want to have a second chance.

Explain how this is relevant to the post?

And lastly, I might get down voted which I don't really care about but this post was a simple question about a simple subject. You don't need to over complicate things with all of your psychology/ philosophy mumbo jumbo. I've been noticing you mods trying too hard to explain things in depth that doesn't need an in-depth explanation. Most people come here with simple questions and you should provide simple clear cut answers. Your response to the OP is a perfect example of over explaining shit that doesn't need one which in turn could confuse people even more that want's to just play the game and not engage in a debate/ full blown discussion.

ModArticus43Apr 17, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Phew, good bit to go through here. Lets take it step-by-step!

By your logic and reasoning there is no need for an ingame chat even if you say u don't suggest it. Your comment concludes that anything that is not glorifying someone else is a positive way is bad. Anything that is neutral is also bad in most cases. Assuming OP is honest and giving the full picture

Keep in mind my post led with "Consider this. . .", as opposed to "do this" or "this is how you should". I made no attempt to force him how he should communicate, I merely shared research based evidence for some things to consider when talking to other people. He's more than welcome to take it or leave it. It's also not my logic considering what I shared is research based evidence that has been cultivated for ~30 years. My comment did not conclude anything, it was merely a reference to other useful information. What he does with that info. is his prerogative. Also, considering I stated that a ping only conveys an "alert", an alert which falls pretty neutral between suggestion and command, pretty much invalidates the whole "Anything that is neutral is also bad in most cases" bit. Furthermore, the only bit I posted which was my opinion was the bit at the end about how I believe people play League, and you're (or anyone is) free to agree/disagree.

I'm also going to skip over your analysis of the 5 steps I posted, because they're not something I just made up. That was copy+pasted from a researcher who has been cultivating and researching those "5 Steps" for ~30 years, and mine and your opinion on it is neither here nor there. I will, however, note:

How did he disrespect anyone by making a completely valid and logical suggestion based on the situation?

I didn't say, imply, etc. that he did. OP asked if he should give advice, so I shared with him useful techniques, that I've found to be helpful, to consider when he chooses to give advice. Judging from his response to my post above, he understood my meaning and thought about it. It's up to him how he goes about with that wisdom.

And lastly, I might get down voted which I don't really care about but this post was a simple question about a simple subject. You don't need to over complicate things with all of your psychology/ philosophy mumbo jumbo. I've been noticing you mods trying too hard to explain things in depth that doesn't need an in-depth explanation. Most people come here with simple questions and you should provide simple clear cut answers. Your response to the OP is a perfect example of over explaining shit that doesn't need one which in turn could confuse people even more that want's to just play the game and not engage in a debate/ full blown discussion.

My post was 4 sentences and a copy+pasted reference. It may not be Kansas anymore for you, but it's around the length of a standard paragraph, and it don't get much more simple than that. Your response to me includes 18 sentences/fragments. And, frankly, it seems like OP came here and Created A Discussion to partake in a discussion. Judging from his response, it seems he had one question, and neither took my reference too lightly nor too seriously.

Sorry for the wall everybody else pls forgive. [sg-lulu]

Quil EvrythingApr 17, 20183 votes

Bottom line is, there a lot of immature babies playing this game. If they dont respond well to advice, then just mute them and stop giving advice to them.

heroikcApr 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quil Evrything,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ERE9XrOq,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-17T04:52:08.725+0000)

Bottom line is, there a lot of immature babies playing this game. If they dont respond well to advice, then just mute them and stop giving advice to them.

Fair idea.

NikoC2016Apr 17, 20181 votes

but also dont be afraid to give it to those willing to listen and improve. i ask for advice when i play new champs all the time

ChermorgApr 17, 20182 votes

I don't think it's wrong to give advice within reason. To me, within reason means you keep it to a minimum necessary for the winning of the game at hand (ex: hey they're all AD maybe magic resist isn't the best itemization), and you don't hound them if they don't listen.

In your case, if you just said it once, I don't think you're at fault at all for trying to give them that advice - and in fact that's what chat's supposed to be used for.

heroikcApr 17, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I don't think it's wrong to give advice within reason. To me, within reason means you keep it to a minimum necessary for the winning of the game at hand (ex: hey they're all AD maybe magic resist isn't the best itemization), and you don't hound them if they don't listen.

In your case, if you just said it once, I don't think you're at fault at all for trying to give them that advice - and in fact that's what chat's supposed to be used for.

It was only first minute, only four or so short lines (probably 5 or six words each...given it was not a relatively simple topic) before Malph jumped in, randomly (in /allchat, that is) and I never mentioned it until Malph rudely brought it up as evidence to my "poor skills" 30 minutes later. So yeah, it could have gone better.

Still, thanks for presenting the "within reason" standards; now I know a little more for the future.

Shukr4nApr 17, 20181 votes

Do u mean that if i rephrase " why do u build-insert mr item-against full ad team" im giving bad suggestion?

ChermorgApr 17, 20181 votes

I'd try not to be so accusatory with it. Always suggest - don't accuse them of doing something wrong, even indirectly.

Shukr4nApr 17, 20181 votes

Being accusatory isnt flaming in any circumstance in rl. Asclong as u stay on topic.

If a riot dev write a bad code on something i am sure someone in the lead chain will tell him "what the fuck did u do with that code/ are ucoding with ass or with brain"? Kind of questions...

ChermorgApr 17, 20182 votes

No, they won't say that.

If a dev at Riot, say, forgets to comment their code appropriately, making it impossible (or very hard) to understand for someone else, the first question is going to be "what does this mean?" and "how do I do what I want to do?" After they fix the problem, they'll look back and see what they can do better. They certainly won't be cursing at each other and saying that other thing.

What you said was certainly flaming - that's not just being accusatory. While something such as "you lost lane" isn't necessarily flaming, it is accusatory and it is negative, and certainly can merit a punishment if it's repetitive.

Shukr4nApr 17, 20181 votes

obv is repetitive it is flame.

but stating the obvious, without offending is considered flame by community. "why the fuck" is not flaming. for example.

but since community is sensitive ( and riot does all it can to promote sensivity) more than actual social interaction SHOULD teach and promote, every word that is not "pegi 3" is offensive, punishable, bannable.

basically to TL;DR: riot is leading community to look and complain about the finger more than looking and accepting the moon. end

heroikcApr 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I don't think it's wrong to give advice within reason. To me, within reason means you keep it to a minimum necessary for the winning of the game at hand (ex: hey they're all AD maybe magic resist isn't the best itemization), and you don't hound them if they don't listen.

In your case, if you just said it once, I don't think you're at fault at all for trying to give them that advice - and in fact that's what chat's supposed to be used for.

It was first minute, four or five brief lines (minus Malph's interjection), something to help beat mundo later into the game, and it was never brought up again until Malph tried to use it as evidence of my "bad skills"...25 minutes later. Sounds like I did okay.

Also, thanks for presenting the "within reason" standards; affirmed knowledge for future games, no?

NirvøyApr 17, 20182 votes

No advising is not bad but the way you give it might be. Not everyone will be receptive to the advice in a positive way and not everyone will understand why. Some will understand and they will listen, some with be ignorant due to ego/ superiority complex/ etc. Some might not know why and ask for further explanation. The key is keep it clear cut and in a neutral/ positive tone. If the recipient shows negative response to the advice, don't bother anymore. If someone else is trying to butt in, just ignore them and/ or mute if they are flaming you.

heroikcApr 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

No advising is not bad but the way you give it might be. Not everyone will be receptive to the advice in a positive way and not everyone will understand why. Some will understand and they will listen, some with be ignorant due to ego/ superiority complex/ etc. Some might not know why and ask for further explanation. The key is keep it clear cut and in a neutral/ positive tone. If the recipient shows negative response to the advice, don't bother anymore. If someone else is trying to butt in, just ignore them and/ or mute if they are flaming you.

Guess I was fortuitous that it was only the Malph getting insulted (by proxy, for some reason) by this; Vlad and Ashe probably just took it in stride/thought, with the Ashe having built an Executioner's calling after 20 minutes, I think. Anyway, good advice. Thanks.

NikoC2016Apr 17, 20181 votes

if youre genuinely trying to be constructive i see no harm. it is a team game after all

Arisha the DarkApr 17, 20181 votes

Many good answers. Probably I won't add anything new, but I'll still share my opinion.

It all depends on what you see as advice. If you just telling people "they have Mundo, please build those 2 items, it'll help us against him", that's absolutely fine. But if you telling people "buy those 2 items if you want to win and if you won't just sur at 15", that is not an advice.

heroikcApr 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arisha the Dark,realm=EUNE,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ERE9XrOq,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-04-17T05:58:07.776+0000)

Many good answers. Probably I won't add anything new, but I'll still share my opinion.

It all depends on what you see as advice. If you just telling people "they have Mundo, please build those 2 items, it'll help us against him", that's absolutely fine. But if you telling people "buy those 2 items if you want to win and if you won't just sur at 15", that is not an advice.

Admittedly, I may have been a tad blunt in my recommendations, but I had used 0 threats and explained the items were for use against mundo when he starts getting into team fights. All in all; I don't think I did bad, per se, but it could have been better phrased.

Ph03n1xdustApr 17, 20181 votes

Using the chat is bad in every game mode. Since Rito defends all the snowflakes who get hurt by an advice, you risk gettin' banned by using the chat.

heroikcApr 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Using the chat is bad in every game mode. Since Rito defends all the snowflakes who get hurt by an advice, you risk gettin' banned by using the chat.

How painfully paradoxical.

giantZorgApr 17, 20181 votes

Well, you see, since I'm challenjour (only my teams holding me back), I'm clearly more proficient than anyone else in the game, so they shall not talk down onto me \s Probably not always, some people just have no clue and don't like being told what to do. Remembers me of an old game where I played with a thunderlords Soraka who thought I flamed her after suggesting taking windspeakers in the next games.

EL HAMSTEROApr 17, 20181 votes

a lot of times if you try to give advice it comes off like you think you are smarter than them and they need your wisdom.

its going to rub a lot of people the wrong way

heroikcApr 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=EL HAMSTERO,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ERE9XrOq,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-04-17T18:11:37.120+0000)

a lot of times if you try to give advice it comes off like you think you are smarter than them and they need your wisdom.

its going to rub a lot of people the wrong way

I know that feeling