Why "defending yourself" isn't worth it.

The Brometheus·Apr 13, 2016·126 votes·7,162 views

We've all been there. Maybe its the jungler asking how you lost your lane after he gave your lane opponent double buffs. Maybe It's the mid lane demanding you learn how to jungle because it's 2:32 and "you should've ganked by now". Maybe it's the adc spam pinging missing on you because you didn't soraka ult him at level 4. Hell, nowadays with dyanmic queue, maybe it's a four-man premade that is sure that the only reason their bronze 5 buddy lost mid, is because Nasus doesn't have 800 stacks at 10 minutes.

Being blamed and flamed for things that aren't your fault sucks. It's totally rational to feel angry or defensive about it.

But you shouldn't flame back. You should just mute them.

Why? Because these people who are flaming you have already made it clear, that logic and reason is not their primary concern. They don't care what you have to say, they're just mad, and lashing out at the first target they see on the minimap.

IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU ARE IN THE RIGHT, BECAUSE THEY DO NOT CARE IF THEY ARE WRONG. Flaming back just makes you angrier, makes you waste time typing, and gives them an excuse to report you.

Muting them instantly removes any chance of them flaming you, makes your "report card" look super good in the eyes of the report bot, and lets you focus on the game.

You can defend your honor in the real world, where it matters. Don't waste your energy on morons with an internet connection.

102 Comments

skullzx7Apr 13, 201631 votes

I hate how we have to walk on eggshells in league now, because if I'm getting flamed hard and even so much as say "stfu" or "stop typing and just play" I get a chat ban for "extensive toxicity" because they get their premade to report me when I was being told to kill myself, die of cancer, and Uninstall, but those guys get away scot free every time.

I miss tribunal.

entitledplayerApr 13, 201610 votes

{quoted}

I hate how we have to walk on eggshells in league now, because if I'm getting flamed hard and even so much as say "stfu" or "stop typing and just play" I get a chat ban for "extensive toxicity" because they get their premade to report me when I was being told to kill myself, die of cancer, and Uninstall, but those guys get away scot free every time.

I miss tribunal.

You mean that system that was a revolving doors of bans, where people felt really good about handing them out for any and all reasons of medium to high-key pettiness of what they don't like -- instead of treating it as elective jury duty?

No, we don't need that system.

skullzx7Apr 13, 201612 votes

If you remember, It was a majority vote system that decided it, if MOST people thought you needed punishment, you would get one, and Vice-versa. If it was closer to 50-50 riot would take a look and be the deciding vote.

Now it's just one flawed robot.

It's also worth mentioning that you had a rating showing how accurate your votes are and the higher your rating the more influence your votes had, if you just ran around clicking "punish" on everything your rating would plummet and hardly mean anything anymore. Sure it wasn't perfect but its better than a robot that can't even tell joking with friends from toxic behavior.

entitledplayerApr 13, 20167 votes

{quoted}

If you remember, It was a majority vote system that decided it, if MOST people thought you needed punishment, you would get one, and Vice-versa. If it was closer to 50-50 riot would take a look and be the deciding vote.

Now it's just one flawed robot.

It's also worth mentioning that you had a rating showing how accurate your votes are and the higher your rating the more influence your votes had, if you just ran around clicking "punish" on everything your rating would plummet and hardly mean anything anymore. Sure it wasn't perfect but its better than a robot that can't even tell joking with friends from toxic behavior.

I do remember -- it had its flaws and benefits, but ultimately wasn't the method that should be best used.

Ontop of that, it's never a good idea to troll your friends by saying anything that can be flagged as toxicity-- even with a 5man;

If that's the way you and your friends speak to each other, and troll each other by abusing the system -- you need to find new friends and not say things you're not willing to catch charges for.

I'd rather have the flawed bot that'll pound me over the face when I'm out of line and show me when/where than have my actions judged on prejudice and opinion of multiple users who don't know/don't care to waiver the difference between the gateway toxicity that can be remedied and reform a user, and people who simply want to have a taste of power and punish people according to their worldviews and pet peeves.

I hate my ADCApr 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Now it's just one flawed robot.

The same robot for everyone. Bans by the Tribunal were subjective, bans by the robot are objective. You get punished for disrespecting the rules according to the same algorithm that everyone get judged with. Not by the rules set by the community on a Monday morning or the ones set by the community on a Friday night. It's always the same rules, no ifs, ands or buts.

skullzx7Apr 14, 20161 votes

for the tribunal you had to show EXTREME negative behavior to be banned, now you can get banned for dcing one game or saying one rude thing during the game.

I hate my ADCApr 14, 20162 votes

And do you have proof that this is how their ban system work? Because last I checked, that is absolutely not how their ban system work. You don't get banned for one DC or for saying one rude thing during a game. You get banned for repeated toxic behavior. Not only that, but DCing from a game or leaving isn't taken care of by the ban system. It wasn't taken care of by the tribunal either. It's taken care of by LeaverBuster which was there back when the tribunal was a thing and is still there today.

skullzx7Apr 15, 20161 votes

Ban wasnt the right word, you can easily get a chat restriction from troll reports though if you so happened to type a curse word during the game

KrugLyfeApr 13, 20163 votes

All the tribunal gave were chat restricts it would have to be pretty bad to get permad hell i saw people who had 1,000 chat restricted games I'd rather people be permanently chat restricted than permanently banned. It would be better to have a flamer on my team than a troll/afk

Satan with brestApr 15, 20161 votes

People who are toxic should just be silenced. it makes ZERO sense to ban someone when they are not playing bad, but are banned because of what they said.

Vistha KaiApr 15, 20161 votes

I've seen many cases being deemed as "not guilty".

Back in the days where you were getting RP for getting people banned, yes. Not so much later.

PbJMpP4xzkApr 13, 20162 votes

i don't miss tribunal because most of peoples would just being dishonest while reveiwing a case and put guilty everywhere.

however thats exactly whats worng with the game especialy with DynamicQ nowadays if you get harrassed and try to defend urself you just might get banned and not them because you are the solo player in the team.

so the solution is quite simple just do like hearthstone (no chat only recorded emotes) and thats the end of toxicity quite easy.

Vellich0rApr 14, 20163 votes

premade votes only count for one per premade.

ZedexApr 14, 20161 votes

You get chat bans for telling toxic players to stop typing to you?

How can I have your tremendously bad luck? Theres more to your story of being punished. And ah, yes, the "Premades are toxic post"

Meanwhile, the report system looks at all parties, not just the player being reported. If your teammates truly deserve a punishment instead of you, they'll surely get it instead of you. Being selective with your story telling paints a terrible picture of yourself, now all I can imagine is you flaming teammates and trying to get THEM in trouble.

skullzx7Apr 14, 20161 votes

I've never done that actually, I don't try to bait people into raging, it just happens. Especially playing ranked in silver.

People in low ELO will TEAR you apart for the smallest mistakes and then try to get both teams to report you for intentionally feeding/trolling, when all that happens is you die from a gank or get caught out once. Premades are ESPECIALLY good at this because they all go into all chat and tell everyone "report X for Y"

Not all premades are toxic, premades are just more likely to be toxic, because its easier to get away with it. It doesn't matter if you said anything wrong or not, if you get 6 reports, even false reports, in one game the robot thinks there had to be a real reason and will take anything you say as toxic, "oh he said fuck when he messed up and died, toxic!"

Satan with brestApr 15, 20161 votes

This happend to me and now im perma banned. i hate when people queue together its unfair riot ;(

bigtastybrocolliApr 13, 201610 votes

More people should read this.

ingrid bergmanApr 13, 20167 votes

“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” -Some Person

AtmospherixApr 14, 20162 votes

George Carlin summoner 6

ingrid bergmanApr 15, 20161 votes

Thanks.

ZacsterApr 13, 20164 votes

Make a TL;DR for the immature flamers. It's the only way they'll understand.

KrugLyfeApr 13, 20163 votes

4 man premades aren't just mad those guys are jackasses to anyone outside the group every time i've had to be on a team with bastards like these if one of them makes a mistake it gets pinned on me I'm sick of premades i never want to see another one

Only Play DariusApr 13, 20163 votes

Back in high school I heard a joke relating internet arguments and the special olympics, but I'm not going to repeat it since it might offend some. The point is, arguing online with someone you will likely never meet again online, let alone in real life, is idiotic.

StrabaneApr 13, 20163 votes

"Eric, why didn't you turn that paper in on my desk on Friday?"

Walks away....fails class / gets fired.

Defending yourself is NEEDED in many cases. Sure this is a game, but that mentality ensures you don't take initiative for what you did wrong. Sure, I get angry at people when I play, and it's always because they actually DID fuck up. Asking Why and getting no response, or even better "Why not?" are legitimate questions. You think LCS teams get their asses kicked, go back to the gaming house and never ask eachother why so and so did what? Think they all mute eachother?

I think someone asking you WHY you did something brings attention and clarification too it. Usually when you accept you fucked up, and explain why you did it, it lowers the chances of you doing it again. I am not necessarily angry at the player, but I would like to see them get better and evolve. If they honestly don't understand or see what mistake they made, then maybe they actually do need to be called out so the team can correct them.

MrHeroModeApr 14, 20161 votes

most LCS players are streamers they are not subjective to the rules because they just say it on there stream were they cant be banned or charged with anything, this system is no good, and riot is at fault I believe, even legally, i spent money on this game and i got banned for no reason. atleast refund all my money back.

TwigglesApr 14, 20162 votes

most LCS players are streamers they are not subjective to the rules because they just say it on there stream were they cant be banned or charged with anything,

They are still subject to the rules. But the thing is, they're keeping it out of the game chat. What? Should people be banned for getting mad at their premades on Skype or Curse Voice too?

this system is no good, and riot is at fault I believe, even legally,

You're hilarious. -_-

i spent money on this game and i got banned for no reason. atleast refund all my money back.

You spent money on RP. Good for you. Spending money should not, and will not, grant an account special behavior privileges. I've seen the topic where you posted your chat logs from your permanent ban. You were not banned for no reason.

SarutobiApr 13, 20162 votes

This should not only be sticky to the top page, but probably also on the Tips while loading up the game!

SpecterVonBarenApr 13, 20162 votes

Anither thing is if you dont reply back then the situation doesnt perpetuate. Many times Ive seen a situation that would normally lead to a game long flame war just stop dead because the person being flamed didn't say anything. Sometimes someone just saying "our mid sucks" is enough for them and they won't flame anymore so long as they don't get a response.

DazedOnlookerApr 14, 20161 votes

Fizz Enemy Killing spree

Yasuo "Can you please not be a feeder??"

Kennen "Can't be helped. I got outplayed"

Yasuo "You sure?. Then stop being bad????"

Evelynn An enemy is Legendary

Yasuo "Can you be anymore useless?"

Kennen "..............."

Kennen Shutdown Evelynn

Yasuo "First u feed, then you ks?"

Kennen "..........." Yasuo "......................" Kennen ".....................................' Yasuo "....."

Victory!

Yasuo "...................." Kennen "..................."

Kennen Has Left the room Yasuo Has left the room

Works only sometimes. You would be surprised at how many people would actually keep the trash talking up even if they are being ignored the entire game.

entitledplayerApr 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Works only sometimes. You would be surprised at how many people would actually keep the trash talking up even if they are being ignored the entire game.

Hard to believe anecdotal experience without a doctored screenshot to prove it happened, and with bland advice that ultimately means and does nothing.

DazedOnlookerApr 14, 20161 votes

Sorry, I should have phrased the last portion more clearly because it was not meant to be taken as advice at all.

56552559_DELApr 13, 20162 votes

I have to disagree to a point.

I do agree that arguing about it will just exacerbate the issue and more than likely get YOU reported because they may have a friend in the game taking their side or you may just have a troll agreeing with the other person.

However, you should at least defend yourself to a point so that way the team doesnt get only 1 side of the story. I always defend myself by explaining my side and if they keep trying to beat a dead horse, i just mute them since there is no sense in arguing with someone who just wants to flame.

Sometimes i get idiot teammates that side with the moron, and other times i get people who agree with me and tell the other guy to stfu. Its really a hit or miss, but you SHOULD explain your side of the story and if you see more flaming coming your way by either the flamer or others, then you SHOULD mute them.

Maximum MordeApr 13, 20162 votes

In TX as long as I yell Oh My God he's coming right for me!, I can shoot first.

Ichabod KongApr 13, 20162 votes

I actually get amused when people lash out at me. I usually type "K." at them, and watch :3

SplashworksApr 13, 20162 votes

So true thanks for this post.

AwesomeChadApr 13, 20162 votes

Valid point however you can't let your feelings bottle up. Eventually, that'll cause not only health issues but it can be detrimental to your mental state and interactions with people in general. Yeah these interactions may happen online but guess what, you're still psychologically attached to the conflicts. A better thing to do is what the OP suggests BUT, you also need to realize that if you have negative emotions, you need to vent them out with alternative methods. Maybe channel that negative energy into a positive hobby or rant on forums/in a notepad/to a friend.

AnomanderApr 14, 20162 votes

"defending yourself" is muting to prevent further damage. "retaliating" is something completely different and most seem to confuse the two.

FovereApr 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

"defending yourself" is muting to prevent further damage. "retaliating" is something completely different and most seem to confuse the two.

Muting is opting to ignore/leave a part of the game because of the potential for harm. Analogous to "walking away" - certainly not defending yourself.

Personally I opt for afking or d/cing. I get hit with leaverbuster regularly, but it beats out having your game trolled or being pulled into an argument.

entitledplayerApr 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Muting is opting to ignore/leave a part of the game because of the potential for harm. Analogous to "walking away" - certainly not defending yourself.

Personally I opt for afking or d/cing. I get hit with leaverbuster regularly, but it beats out having your game trolled or being pulled into an argument.

By not reporting the person, they will not see punishment for their choices and actions.

This functionally makes you part of the problem because you're unwilling to do what's needed to be part of the solution, however disillusioned with it you may be.

FovereApr 15, 20162 votes

{quoted}

By not reporting the person, they will not see punishment for their choices and actions.

This functionally makes you part of the problem because you're unwilling to do what's needed to be part of the solution, however disillusioned with it you may be.

That's a rather narrow viewpoint. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem? Whose solution? Riot is attempting to force players to assume certain behaviors and attitudes that have little to do with "harassment" or "abuse". Negativity and 'unsportmanlike conduct', vague and subjective terms, are apparently grounds for punishment now. I've played sports my entire life and even a golf game can turn ugly, but they don't kick you out unless you come to blows or start breaking things :p

This is a video game. I play for fun. When I queue in, I am ready to focus on gameplay and do the best I can for my team. But, as is often the case, when someone is determined to rip the focus from gameplay onto them, then I am out. I see little advantage to investing upwards of 60 minutes of my time, while wholly unable to really participate, just to click a few things post game or avoid some ridiculous punishment.

Also, I imagine that if these provocateurs were met with d/c's every time they started in on someone, they'd learn to stop a whole lot quicker. Just a thought.

entitledplayerApr 15, 20162 votes

{quoted}

That's a rather narrow viewpoint. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem? Whose solution?

It's not narrow, it's fact-of-the-matter: Either you're with it, against it, or on the fence. Being on the fence as part of the silent majority that witness the problem but do nothing to stop it because it's "not your problem" despite being part of the playerbase community makes you functionally part of the problem and detrimental because you put your own well-being above others.

It's not wrong, but no one said Social Darwinism was beneficial to the species/society in a short-term manner -- It's geared to the long-term, and the hands-off "I'm not going to get involved" stance is a bad as the trolling and toxic stance.

Riot is attempting to force players to assume certain behaviors and attitudes that have little to do with "harassment" or "abuse". Negativity and 'unsportmanlike conduct', vague and subjective terms, are apparently grounds for punishment now. I've played sports my entire life and even a golf game can turn ugly, but they don't kick you out unless you come to blows or start breaking things :p

Then you've never been part of an organized country club, or part of a organization with a foundation and charter that has rules of this degree and legality.

Also, no: Riot's not forcing players to assume toxic behavior and selfish actions and thought-processes are wrong;

You've already signed two legal digital contract where they outline to you the behaviors in question that are right and wrong -- the way you're describing this is if you're being blindsided by something you were made aware of by The Summoner's Code, The End User License Agreement, the Terms of Service, and the myriad of other documentations such as the Instant Feedback System FAQ, and direct quotes from Rioters on multiple matters a thousand times over.

You cannot refuse to read a legal document, break rules and then say " But I didn't know! ", as they haul you to jail for Manslaughter Two with intent to commit a conspiracy in America/any sovereign nation -- because you as a citizen were taught in Civics your national laws, The Bill of Rights, the Constitution, and your city-states bylaws of amendments in the legislature that's applicable -- The shit does not fly here, for the same exact reasons, because Riot Games and the software known as 'League Of Legends' is private property;

Meaning they make the rules, and they are the sovereign -- You're agreeing to behave yourself and abide by the charter and rules or get dealt with when/if you ignore them and do what you want as one of the governed; That's why multitudes of players get laughed out of the PB&M sections for the countless "BUT MAH FREEDOM OF SPEECH!?!?!?!?!?123213!?" threads when they come from the woodwork to try to get over on the system;

You have the freedom to say and do what you want when using the software under contract -- and Riot and members of the silent majority who abide by the rules have the nontenured right to not witness and be forced to see your actions, think you're against the caliber of member/user they want to be associated with, and are showing you the door while stripping you of the rights you're not respecting,, and telling you to "Try again, or never come back because we don't want to look at you or play with you."

You were made aware of the rules, you were given warnings, and toxic players didn't heed them, thus punishment -- It's not Riot's responsibility to make you/us read the rules by force -- it's your own as the signer of the legal documents and contracts, and a moral obligation as a member of the community to make yourself culturally awakened to the reality of the situations around you -- the same way anyone has to get informed opinions and facts to contextually be capable of knowing the literal difference.

This is a video game. I play for fun. When I queue in, I am ready to focus on gameplay and do the best I can for my team. But, as is often the case, when someone is determined to rip the focus from gameplay onto them, then I am out. I see little advantage to investing upwards of 60 minutes of my time, while wholly unable to really participate, just to click a few things post game or avoid some ridiculous punishment.

This. This right here is how you're functionally feeding the problem.

If you're not going to be able to respond and react to the issue as you need to and do what's required and necessary to get them removed, you're allowing a systemic problem to feed and grow and cause pain and misery to everyone at large by making them have to deal with this toxicity because you wouldn't -- which is why people cite LoL's playerbase as the most toxic playerbase in the world;

Because LoL is the #1 most played game in the world, and is constantly experiencing what can be explained by parallel as the governed body of the playerbase going through the stages of septic shock. For context, click this sentence following that comma to open any of 4 reference sites on the subject.

At base explanation, the playerbase is constantly being bedridden with the infection of toxic players, but some people refuse to treat the issue early as they should -- leading the toxic behavior to become influential on them and cause eventually the death of the account by being permanently banned -- since the toxicity 'infects' you and leads you to exhibit the same behavior as those you're constantly witnessing.

The only way to deal with it is to point it out, report it, and have Riot deal with it as you inoculate yourselves by not looking at it, not dealing with the directly by 'defending yourselves' incorrectly, and keep going about your League careers.

Do none of that, and you don't have room to talk on the matter until Riot changes how the system works or how they base judgement.

Also, I imagine that if these provocateurs were met with d/c's every time they started in on someone, they'd learn to stop a whole lot quicker. Just a thought.

That would be against multiple rules concerning online connections -- Unless a Rioter was there to witness the toxicity and ban them in pre-match, they cannot force others to experience a non-quality 5v5 match.

Just because it sounds cool doesn't make it wise in practice.

Colgate GatorApr 14, 20162 votes

Outside of the whole "being banned for fighting back" and blah blah blah, it's more of a "not worth my time" principle.

As soon as I see someone being aggro I just mute them and continue with my life, today won't be the day I let a salty random stranger try to unleash his chemical imbalances on me.

PePsiLemoNNApr 14, 20162 votes

lashing out at the first target they see on the minimap.

*They have no minimap

FovereApr 14, 20162 votes

No kidding.

Life isn't safe. People are mean. Especially people in groups.

This is a game accessible by people of all ages and types. I'd guess around 75% of the player base are still on the road to adulthood in some sense, with at least some growing up left to do.

The goal here should be striking a balance between enforcement and expression, while being realistic about who plays this game and how they are going to behave. The combination of Riot policies and matchmaking is basically saying that they expect you to eat up what is essentially online bullying from a lot of these premade groups, and do it with a smile, or else.

The argument that you wouldn't get in trouble if you didn't do something wrong simply doesn't hold water. Ask any patrol cop. Everyone breaks the law, probably a dozen times a day, without knowing it. Does everyone deserve to go to jail? No, of course not. There is a difference between what is technically bad, or wrong, and what is clearly damaging and needs to be handled.

However, the guy who has to drive by an officer's favorite strip twice a day is going to be a lot more likely to get tickets because he has more exposure to active duty law enforcement. Ditto for the guys getting thrown in with premade groups. The premade players are going to receive less reports, while the solo queuers receive more, and so their behave will be far more likely to come under scrutiny and eventually acted upon.

ErdrikApr 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

... The premade players are going to receive less reports, while the solo queuers receive more, and so their behave will be far more likely to come under scrutiny and eventually acted upon.

Incorrect. It is not the number of reports per game that leads to judgement.(being under scrutiny) It is the number of flagged games that leads to judgement, and a premade has no more power than a solo player in that regard.

Reports do not lead directly to punishment. They lead to a review of the match for the player being reported. 9 reports are no different than 1 report, it just flags the match for review.

Once your account has a certain number of flagged matches associated with it, the system randomly selects some of those matches for review. Once reviewed, if you did nothing wrong in any of those matches, the reports are thrown out and those players future reports become less valuable.

Just Blame JennyApr 15, 20162 votes

I agree for the most part, but I feel there are two occasions where it helps to defend:

Defending yourself with calm reason can help to defuse situations where someone simply wasn't paying attention or privy to all of the information. "Why didn't you shield me, Janna?" "Sorry, but I'd used it on Vayne just previously, so it was still on cooldown."

Should they continue to argue, then definitely, mute them and move on. But discussing the matter can help keep everyone cool, and ensure everyone maintains mutual respect and trust for one another.

Defending a teammate can help to prevent them from going on tilt. There've been many games where someone attacked another player for something that was either minor, or wasn't even their fault. Or heck, maybe it was a big mistake, but they'd been playing rather well otherwise.

By defending a teammate (e.g. "Hey, Elise may've missed that smite, but she was under a lot of pressure. We've still got this!"), you can help to keep them invested and on their game.

ErdrikApr 15, 20161 votes

While I agree with this on personal principle, its just not publicly practical. There are too many players who don't understand what "calm reasoning" is. Or just straight up have a different definition of it.

Because of this I don't think it is a good idea to openly suggest it as a method of diffusing a situation.

IgnobleTempestApr 14, 20161 votes

Ok, but what happens if you do mute the AND get reported the punished? Also "The punishmen system wont punish you if you mute them" line is either misinformation or an outright lie, as several people have been punished for ignoring/muting them. This current automated system is beyond flawed.

TwigglesApr 14, 20162 votes

Ok, but what happens if you do mute the AND get reported the punished?

You won't be punished for behavior if you have no behavior to punish.

Also "The punishmen system wont punish you if you mute them" line is either misinformation or an outright lie, as several people have been punished for ignoring/muting them.

Prove it. (Spoilers: You can't.)