Boards›Player Behavior

How to Propose Punishment System Changes

ModThe Djinn·8/11/2018, 12:50:57 AM·25 votes·10,606 views

Hey all!

Love it or hate it, the punishment system is one of the most frequent topics here. We have people adamantly defending it, people deriding it at every opportunity, and everything in between. What we don't have as much of, though, is good conversations about proposed changes.

As such, here's a primer on what I think a suggestion needs to do in order to be something that might actually gain traction here or with Riot.

It must not enable more toxicity against non-toxic players than the current system.
It must not place the burden of avoidance on the victim of harassment.
It must not increase the chances of players tilting their teammates.
It must not create a Prisoner's Island of toxic players in either gameplay or communication.
It must not forcibly reduce team communication.
It must not lead to players finding other in-game ways to be toxic.
It must not be based on anecdotal evidence, such as "this would clearly work" or "it's so obvious" or "all punished players return on smurfs" or "everyone would behave this way."
You must be willing to accept critique.
You must be willing to accept the data Riot has told us regarding the system, as otherwise there is no common ground to discuss things from. Any changes would need to be approved by Riot as well as the community, which means that if your system can't stand up to an argument based on Riot's data than it is dead on arrival.

If your proposal can hit these main points, there might be merit to it! Remember to present your ideas on their own merits though -- if your thread reads as an attack on the current system rather than an analysis and suggested improvements, the conversation is unlikely to focus on the improvements but rather on the attack.

77 Comments

Ulquiorra01238/11/2018, 2:06:30 PM13 votes

So this is speaking from direct experience with being Permad. I had an account about 3 years back that had about 2500$ worth of skins on it. At the time I was what I would call competitively passionate about the game. Rarely, but from time to time I would bash someone for a clearly stupid decision, and I'm not talking "KYS" or, "I hope you get cancer and die". I'm talking "That was so incredibly stupid, and you knew that would happen". Now to me, if you don't want to hear that, the mute button is provided. I actually got done with a 250 game chat restriction, during the whole time I was fairly clean, there was still the odd time where I would use my limited messages to bash an intentional feeder, but overall really clean. And then the game after the 250 game chat ban was up, the account was permabanned after an URF game where the only thing I said, was "shut up and play" to 2 incredibly toxic players. It was the only thing to pop up for my reason for being permad.

I don't think the current system should punish someone who only talks gameplay, even if it is trashtalk, if you don't want to hear it, there is a mute button. If the system is literally designed to ban anyone for anything negative they say, why the mute button? Why even have it in the game? I don't think that I should have been permad for trash talking every few games about someone's gameplay, I dont think its a fair punishment to lose 2500$ over. You wouldn't in any other game, and no matter what is done, the game will still be toxic as hell.

My innate problem with this is that the trolls and intentional feeders don't get punished nearly as often. And I feel like you can't have it both ways. It is literally the main reason I have not spent a single cent more, is because my gameplay is apparently "toxic". I mean I would never go in on someone's personal life or anything like that, but apparently giving one comment about how stupid someone's decision was is considered toxic, so I just do my best to never talk, and I'll never spend a cent again until the system is redone so it actually punishes the true toxic people in the game, and stops punishing people for being passionate.

I do not like that anything that can be taken as negative is punishable, it creates this SJW environment that has led to most of my high elo games having nobody talk. People are legitimately scared to talk ingame because anything is report worthy. I mean the thing that started it all was my smurf getting a chat ban for being nice to a toxic player........ Yeah this happens.

If it were my choice, people wouldn't be punished for trashtalk about gameplay until it crosses the line from trashtalk to berating. And even then it would only be short chat restrictions, never a ban/permaban. I also would have a team that goes out of their way to ban intentional feeders. First time offense is a permaban. When you choose to intentionally feed, you choose to not play the game, that would be the motto I would have. Trolls are a bit different, I would personally just slap a ranked suspension on them and then if they do it in normals you ban them straight up. There needs to be much more leniency in competitive trashtalk, and alot less leniency in trolls and inters. Like I had a Riven literally buy mobis and tears and run it down mid, no punishment at all, not the first time they have done it.

In final, I don't agree with taking away someone's account unless they seriously ruin games. I don't think there is anything that anyone can say that will affect 80% of the playerbase and how they play, because most people have a spine/know where the mute button is. And for the remaining 20% of players, put a PSA in the load screen as to where the mute button is permanently. Now I will never spend another cent again because of Riot support response to me asking If I can get my account back from 3 years ago: "you have fixed your ways but we cant give you your account back, we don't have a way to." Complete and utter BS, they gave accounts back in the past from permaban status. So they just get to keep my 2500$ in hope I will spend to get it all back, nah, not gonna happen.

mlm olo mlm8/11/2018, 1:39:50 AM8 votes

It must not enable more toxicity against non-toxic players than the current system.

Shouldn't we strive to prevent toxicity towards EVERYONE?

It must not place the burden of avoidance on the victim of harassment.

Well, expecting the one doing the harassing to avoid the harassment is a little not possible. The burden is always going to be on the victim. The good news is Riot has provided easy avoidance methods.

It must not increase the chances of players tilting their teammates.

I don't even know what that means. Isn't that the same as your first point? Tilting your team mates is not toxic?

It must not create a Prisoner's Island of toxic players in either gameplay or communication.

Already is one. I understand why you brought that up though and know your hands are tied.

It must not forcibly reduce team communication.

What if team communication is the problem?

It must not lead to players finding other in-game ways to be toxic.

Tired of this stupid argument. Players look for loop holes in the system. Old news.

It must not be based on anecdotal evidence

I've never seen Riot. moderators, or public use scientific data in their arguments. Probably because y'all have none.

You must be willing to accept the data Riot has told us regarding the system

Bull shit. All "data" Riot has given us is out-dated and incomplete.

Naramiel8/11/2018, 1:11:59 AM7 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=Bz5qQa1I,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-11T00:50:57.100+0000)

It must not be based on anecdotal evidence, such as "this would clearly work" or "it's so obvious" or "all punished players return on smurfs" or "everyone would behave this way."

Good post, but here I think you're setting an impossible standard. Clearly no one's going to have data that proves their method would work (unless they're discussing a straight return-to-the-Tribunal), so it's not really possible to "prove" their method would be better as you're demanding.

Shädäm8/11/2018, 2:23:10 AM6 votes

At the moment, the system's strictness towards toxicity makes it so easy to abuse. Ive met players that provoke you to the point you say the word. Even if you mute them, provoking toxicity is just so easy by griefing ones game. And the fact that you get a 2-week for saying the word, but can get away with a 0/20 5xTear + Moby Boots build at the same time is just ridiculous. And im saying this example because ive made reshearces (yes, you can say, I inted on a test account to see if I get banned)

There is no risk in griefing. People do it left and right. And just compare the two cases:

Being in a hard game with not so well performing players, but you know you cant say a word because of the risk of getting chat-resteict. or even 2-week - Actually, the problem is not here. The system works fine if you consider this

But the other case:

Getting your champ banned so you just say "fk it" and decide to prevent the teammate from winning. You dont feel risks, in fact, you feel the power of the system on your side, as they either have to dodge and get penalized, or have to sit through the game with you trolling on intention.

But at the end of the day, im just another crying player that claims, his team always trolls. I mean, this is what most people would say after reading this

MYSTlCFLOW8/11/2018, 6:09:16 AM4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=Bz5qQa1I,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-11T00:50:57.100+0000)

It must not create a Prisoner's Island of toxic players in either gameplay or communication.

huh thats odd, I made a new account and If I didn't know any better it's where all the banned people end up. my last game had a support who didn't like what the bot laner chose and decided to go smite nunu and follow the nidalee around and steal camps making the nidalee afk..

there's always someone toxic or afk or inting when leveling up, almost like... the banned players got sent to low level..... huh.

out of curiosity has anyone else recently created a new account and leveled up? what was your experience like

Imperial Pandaa8/11/2018, 1:07:36 AM3 votes

;-;

Made something like this recently. This is much better worded though.

Lux Is Mai Waifu8/11/2018, 3:21:26 AM3 votes

what about actually building 2-factor (discord has it, and is worth 10 times less than Riot Games), and using phone numbers to stop people from making a new account for ranked to avoid bans? it would put a higher price on ban evasion, and the account security system wouldn't be a relic of the 90s

Log Dog8/11/2018, 12:20:09 PM3 votes

Make something like Overwatch in CS:GO, where community (I suggest Platinum+) can review the reports, I suggest this for the inting part, but for the flaming part of the reports as well. Or just fix the damn ban system for trolling. It should automatically detect if someone flashes under enemy turret and stays still or something like that, at least that's super easy to create.

Huya906668/11/2018, 7:30:10 AM2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=Bz5qQa1I,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-11T00:50:57.100+0000)

Hey all!

Love it or hate it, the punishment system is one of the most frequent topics here. We have people adamantly defending it, people deriding it at every opportunity, and everything in between. What we don't have as much of, though, is good conversations about proposed changes.

As such, here's a primer on what I think a suggestion needs to do in order to be something that might actually gain traction here or with Riot.

It must not enable more toxicity against non-toxic players than the current system.

It must not place the burden of avoidance on the victim of harassment.

It must not increase the chances of players tilting their teammates.

It must not create a Prisoner's Island of toxic players in either gameplay or communication.

It must not forcibly reduce team communication.

It must not lead to players finding other in-game ways to be toxic.

It must not be based on anecdotal evidence, such as "this would clearly work" or "it's so obvious" or "all punished players return on smurfs" or "everyone would behave this way."

You must be willing to accept critique.

You must be willing to accept the data Riot has told us regarding the system, as otherwise there is no common ground to discuss things from. Any changes would need to be approved by Riot as well as the community, which means that if your system can't stand up to an argument based on Riot's data than it is dead on arrival.

for all of those points, maybe you should think of which would be the better option. what can u sacrifice to gain a better ingame experience. maybe for example a reduced team communication (especially in lol where the not typing does not affect ur win or lose - dopa apdo) will be better thana flamer who flames in 20 ranked games before he get banned and then messes with new players. the problem with all those posts of a new system is, that we experience the current system and see how it works while none of you have ever experienced for example my system.

you cant see the outcome now just because a similar one didnt work a few years ago (especially if this was obviously not thought thru), the game and the community has changed.

Big wins come from big sacrifices. and maybe we have to sacrifice some of those points above to win the "fight" against flamers. but you, djinn, are obviously one of those stubborn defenders and there is no way to change your mind, which is fine, its unlikely anyone here can change mine ... but this is because i play lowlevel accs, this is because i have been everywhere from plat 3 in flex to bronze 1 in 3v3. this is because i see and feel the current system as a flamer and on my current account as someone who is with lvl 21 almost honor lvl 3. so yeah, i am stubborn about it and you are either a riot fanboy (which is nothing bad) who will defend it no matter what or actually believe the current system works. but you know, ask every lvl 20- player in my friendslist why they stopped playing, ask them how the system works.

If your proposal can hit these main points, there might be merit to it! Remember to present your ideas on their own merits though -- if your thread reads as an attack on the current system rather than an analysis and suggested improvements, the conversation is unlikely to focus on the improvements but rather on the attack.

VexingRaven8/11/2018, 4:04:37 AM2 votes

It must not create a Prisoner's Island of toxic players in either gameplay or communication.

Why not?

The Highest Noon8/11/2018, 2:39:03 PM2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=Bz5qQa1I,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-11T00:50:57.100+0000)

It must not place the burden of avoidance on the victim of harassment.

The current system already does this, telling people that they should just mute any harassment and if they respond then they're just enabling toxicity. I don't think that last part applies, though. Can you elaborate on this point, because I'm pretty sure that I'm misunderstanding it.

It must not forcibly reduce team communication.

This one is weird, because Riot themselves already punish players by reducing team communication. I don't understand why player-created ideas are wrong when even though it's right for official ideas. If Riot has proven anything, it's that reducing communication is the best idea, which makes sense given the belief which is supported by both Riot and players that textual communication is unnecessary--something that was said before pings and emotes became as prevalent as they are today. We have ways of communicating everything necessary without the use of chat so this shouldn't be an issue.

It must not lead to players finding other in-game ways to be toxic.

Something else I need explanation on, because the current system already leads players to finding other in-game ways to be toxic.

Someone's punished for chat? They

troll while saying they're trying.
feed while pretending that they're just making silly mistakes.
refuse to assist teammates, blamming ping.
do nothing and blame cooldowns.
do nothing and say something like "Oh, but you said--"
etc

The worst part is that victims of such really don't have a way to prove that it's toxicity, which sucks. I've been both victim and witness to it, and I don't really know what to do besides just reporting it and trusting the system to work.

Most of what you said's spot-on, but some of it makes no sense given the current system. Maybe those're just my misunderstandings, though. CRITICIZE ME, CAP'N!

IdveYsUfSK8/11/2018, 6:01:13 PM2 votes

My suggestion is to have a low priority queue for leavers and toxicity. Why leavers are added is because games are already super short nowadays. Don't play if you don't have the time. Ruins the game for other 9 people. Once you are flagged you will have to clear for five times, with each toxic game adding one count while clearing.

How it works: Flagged for leaving games/toxicity?, you have to wait for 5 mins, afterwards you have a confirmation popup that you have to accept within a small time frame. Then you will be assigned to the normal queue. The 5 mins will be the time for the player to reflect on his/her toxic behavior. During this 5 mins riot can choose to put brainwashing advertisements on why being non toxic is better for you. "Featuring reformed players. If they can do it, you can do it too." The 5 mins can be alternatively be tuned to have random time intervals of multiple confirmation popup, 2 or more. This is needed as the toxic user can simply wait out by doing other things. Confirmation popup would have messages like: I would turn over a new leaf :OK: Let me start anew :OK: I promise to change :OK: etc.

All these can be built into the client easily.

Its about repetition and conditioning the player to become less toxic. This is all part of psychology. The problem is there are no consequences for which what those baddies can do, so they keep on doing it. This has gone for almost a decade without being solved.

I currently play in one of the most toxic servers which is not NA. There's a new form of undetectable toxic behavior which is deliberate INTing with a non ridiculous death count end game and not type anything with a goal to create meaningful leads for enemy. I call it the macro INTing or pretending to play while baiting teammates to die. These players are having fun doing it. They usually press stop/spam laugh after engage or just run into enemy or tower doing nothing(no skill/autoattack).

SorenAlucard8/11/2018, 6:47:25 PM2 votes

I think this discourse doesn't go far because there are fundamental value differences.

The argument usually stops at the definition of "victim", or "harassment". Also, there's difference in servers. The PC motives are pretty apparent in NA/EU, whereas competition and using your mute have remained fundamental in the other servers where such views aren't valued.

I've seen a few interviews, including one with aphromoo, mentioning how solo q for NA is a waste of time or not a good place for a player to grow and learn things. One side thinks that we've made progress in terms of behavioral management, the other side feels like we've done the opposite. I don't really know how to reconcile a happy medium between the two?

idk, mainly just an observation :p

JRobin318/11/2018, 5:51:40 PM1 votes

My proposal is to improve the punishment system is to remove notifications to players that their actions have resulted in a punishment.

Problems with the notifications:

It rewards negative sentiment towards others.
Players build an expectation to receive a notification that a player was punished that leads to feelings of aggravation when they do not.
Encourages the negative behavior of stalking other players (to see if they are punished or to what degree).

Addendum: The punishment system is not a system of "justice". Its purpose is not for players to get "revenge" for being badly treated in games. The purpose of the punishment system is to promote a better playing environment for everyone. These notifications of punishment serve as affirmations that the system is supposed to get you personal justice/revenge on those who have wronged you in a game.

XinZhao2WinNhao8/12/2018, 11:22:22 PM1 votes

I propose to bring back tribunal with replays for inters and griefing that cannot be detected easily by a bot. The summoners who judge those cases of course should have a clean record and no bans in their past.