Boards›Player Behavior

Hypocritical Players

woodvsmurph·3/19/2018, 5:51:36 AM·2 votes·462 views

So I had an idea today. An idea to test out and prove my point about trolls and intentional feeders. I'm going to do a 2nd post with a game viewed and analyzed from 2 player perspectives to help others visualize this further. But for now... to the point.

I've made several posts discussing how I get people who intentionally feed or are boosted a full division (ex: bronze 5 would be playing silver 5 match) and how none of these people get punished. I've given thorough breakdowns using examples and logic to document exactly how such people were in fact intentionally feeding - not having a bad game. I've played the game long enough - as main or secondary in every role at some point - to know the difference. I look back at some games where teammates flame bot for being 1/7/0 and I defend bot - because they got screwed over by the team. I look back at others and say that in fact a 7/7/2 bot did feed - before being spoon fed kills in teamfights to catch her back up. So... I know the difference between inting and having a bad game. For those who wish to challenge me on this or argue that dying 6 times in lane is never intentional feeding... consider this: Dyrus and Wickd - 2 former PRO players would look at a 1/3/2 adc who was out of position and taking a bad trade and call that feeding when the adc dies. So...

What's my point?

  1. Intentional feeding is not being punished. This creates an unhealthy game environment and puts high levels of frustration and stress on even the nicest of players.
  2. More often than not, such players will not respond to any requests or demands of their teammates to work in a united fashion. They will continue doing the same bad play(s) all game long. Furthermore, they will look to flame teammates for having a poor kda even if said teammate's kda is understandable due to events such as being camped by jg all laning phase or being repeatedly ganked by a fed enemy laner (from a different lane) any time they leave tower. Rather than look to improve or help a teammate by giving them good advice, they just look to harass others and bring them down. This is also against the summoner's code and is a reportable offense. Yet if someone were to say... snap from having 7 games straight of one or two inting teammates throw every game and teammates blame said player, the player who snaps at the intentional feeder and flamer is the one who is punished while the latter gets off free. This is not ok.
  3. Should a player get punished for snapping at teammates when they intentionally feed and then flame said player for trying to get them to play smart and work with the team to make good plays? Yes. Just because you're teammates are toxic and intentionally feeding does not excuse you calling them shit to get back at them; however, calling them shit does not mean the toxic intentional feeder should be off the hook. And this is where the boards community, in-game community, ifs, and Riot has been 100% hypocritical.

Allow me to demonstrate... Boards, in-game, ifs, and Riot have had access to my posts about this issue, have gotten numerous tickets, and have done nothing to punish a single intentional feeder or toxic player unless my entire team has also reported them and i never said anything to them that could be deemed as rude. Logically presented cases on boards and in reports go ignored. So an adc who tries to 2v2 the enemy bot duo when they enemy is 7/1/2 (adc) and 2/0/7 (sup), my bot lane is logically going to lose. Both duo's full hp, the enemy duo got their kda entirely 1v1. My duo is forcing the fight by the enemy tower; not getting shoved in and harassed under their own tower. The outcome of such a situation is known before the fight even starts; the enemy duo will win. They'd even win 2v3 if our jg came to help them. So, that would be evidence of a bot lane intentionally feeding.

Now, assume I'm being 2v1'd by the enemy jg and toplaner for about 90% of the game for the first 15 min once the enemy jg grabs his first pair of buffs and does one more camp to grab level 3 before camping top. Why? Because this is a laughably standard situation for me to have to deal with. Now, more often than not, i will trade about evenly with my opponent despite being 1v2, getting no help from team - not even wards, and often enough being counter-picked. Knowing I'm giving my teammates a gank-free laning phase (maybe they get ganked 1x in 15 min) and my jungler free gank opportunities, I should expect my teammates to go about even if not win their lanes due simply to map pressure. Enemy laners have to play safer due to threat of jg ganks, teammates can play agro and punish enemy mistakes harder.

When bot gives enemy adc a double kill lvl 3, I say nothing. When they die a 2nd time for 1 reply kill - having forced the fight by flashing under the enemy tower to start it, I ask them to pls just play safe - you don't need to win lane. A minute or two later, they die a 3rd time - this time despite jg backup. I've been ganked 4x, I've been zoned off 1.5 waves of cs and xp by enemy jg sitting on a ward in top river for a full min when they KNOW that I know they're there, I've been flash ganked 2 of those times. I've had the enemy midlaner tp top to deny me finishing a kill on my lane opponent. And despite absorbing all that pressure and being encouraged to just play safe and farm up, my bot lane is now 1/6/1 combined. Due to the repeated ganks top and TRYING to make plays to give my team an advantage SOMEWHERE, I'm 2/3/0. When my adc dies a 4th time... trying to shove out and 1v2 the enemy bot duo, I again stress that they pls just play safe, hug tower, and farm. The reply is... shut up top - feeding noob. Mid tells me to calm the fuck down and stop typing. Bot duo continues to feed. Jungle continues to try to stabilize a clearly intentionally feeding bot lane instead of give counter-ganks top where we could 100% get 2 for 0 or 2 for 1 kill trades all game and gain our team an advantage SOMEWHERE. Or, he'll just counter-jungle, make risky 1v4 invades with no backup, and die.

Blah blah blah... 15 plus minutes later with this type of play being repeated the entire time...for my 7th game straight I finally lose it and tell adc or somebody they're an idiot or they're retarded. Why? They just forced a 3v5 vs a bunch of fed enemies when our mid is dead, I'm 3/4 the way across the map and have no tp right now and they rip into me for being a shitty teammate, losing them the game with my build, not grouping (I'm pulling 2+ people to my lane - you'd rather have 5v5 than 4v3?), going in stupidly (I cc'd the fed enemy adc on the frontline of their team and got her to 1/4hp for you all when i grouped to 5v5 because you can't handle me splitting 1v2). Yeah, completely contradicting themselves and tearing apart a teammate who is literally pulling more weight than 3 of them combined - despite being flamed by them all game, being tilted by having intentionally feeding teammates for the 7th straight game, and being camped and counter-picked from min 3 on the entire game.

Now, I do not argue that I should - and have been - punished for calling my teammate an idiot. I do agree that's not acceptable and ifs is correct to punish such behavior. Where we differ is on the response towards the intentionally feeding teammate(s) - some of whom have also been toxic to me for much longer duration within the game. While they avoid saying something like idiot, flaming someone for dying to a flash 1v3 gank when they can't even leave tower to ward the river due to being camped and getting no aid is definitely not acceptable behavior. Telling someone they are selfish trash noob who never groups when said player literally zoned 3 people for his team 2 fights in a row and is the only teammate that had any kill threat on their opponents is a blatant lie and very toxic. Yelling at someone for engaging a 5v5 that your team loses only to engage a 3v5 after you respawn from getting aced - a 3v5 you didn't have to take - is completely illogical and toxic.

So, why in the world are such players left unpunished by Riot and ifs? Why do boards claim that trying to 2v2 a 7/1/2 and 2/0/7 enemy bot duo that you (bot duo) fed is completely understandable and not in any way intentional feeding. That such play should not be punished when the feeding duo is forcing the fight by the enemy tower; not trying desperately to defend themselves under their own (something i would consider having a bad game rather than inting). Why can players like that flame a teammate the entire game who is doing nothing wrong and trying to give them encouragement and friendly HELPFUL (not flaming) advice, yet receive no punishment?

So. To prove how hypocritical, I made an 'unrelated' post examining a fictitious real life scenario of someone making similar types of mistakes but in a real world job. Sure, it can be argued that this is a video game and therefore it doesn't matter; however, competitive integrity argues that in RANKED it does matter. I will give you that it matters LESS than the real world, but it still does matter. So, let's follow the link below and see how much the opinion changes against the intentional feeder (not even a toxic one) in the real world...

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/OLN5lIA1-my-friend-lost-his-job

The fictitious friend = intentional feeder *I didn't make his "mistakes" intentional since the boards doesn't view a bot lane like i described above as "intentionally' feeding store = team

boss = me ; the teammate who tries to get team to chill, stop forcing bad plays over and over again, etc.

The in quotes parts are posts by others - the part after the hyphens is my translation of their quote into league.

On the off chance people rush to delete comments, let me post a few of the better ones here: "6 mistakes is a lot of money and resources wasted. Especially in a short span of time." - so 6 deaths from repeat forcing fights you shouldn't take is... bad

"You are being paid to make money for the business not lose it. An honest mistake still costs the business money, and something like writing down an order wrong is a bonehead mistake." - even if it's a mistake, it still costs not just the individual, but the whole store/team

"It's not unfair to your friend; he fucked up, multiple times. Every single one of those mistakes was avoidable, yet he did it 6 times. When you make a mistake you should analyze why it happened and how to prevent it. Ensuring a customer's order is correct has been a solved problem for a very long time, yet your friend was incapable of simply verifying an order." - forcing bad fights is avoidable, doing it should make you re-evaluate the situation before you force another one... and you shouldn't force another one. Repeating the same mistake that is very simple to correct is unacceptable

"Six expensive mistakes in two months?

Unless there were extenuating circumstances, that is absolutely a justified firing." - temp banning or punishing the intentional feeder in some way is absolutely the correct call - unless it were a situation where like they got 4v2 camped and tower dove all game w/o any help from team (which is not the case for people I've reported)

"That's a pretty short time for 6 mistakes like that." - way too many "mistakes" for it to be "having a bad game"; it's intentional feeding and it's not ok.

"It would be understandable if you said "one simple, honest mistake", but the fact that it's "six 'honest' mistakes" is almost comical. That amount of mistakes is simply unacceptable in a professional environ of any sort." - if this were normal game it might be ok (not even sure if it would be ok then), but this is ranked; intentional feeding is NOT ok.

I could go on, but I think I've made my point. Also, I've had plenty of games where teammates due to having a bad game, but then worked WITH their team to make GOOD decisions and at least TRIED honestly to help win the game. Win or lose, I don't get toxic with people in such matches because I'm not being asked to carry intentional feeders who treat me like shit all game and threaten to report me for something as trivial as asking them to help ward. So the point is... the toxic people Riot needs to be dealing with and removing from the game is not so much people like me who have snapped at teammates after way too many games of toxic intentionally feeding teammates ruining the game for me, but... the people who are toxic feeders that go around intentionally feeding, flaming others with literally 0 logic to their words, and ruining the game for others. Again - not saying my punishments haven't been justified - but I am saying that were such horrible toxic intentional feeders to be dealt with properly, I'd never say such things to begin with. And Riot would have dealt with the root of the problem of toxicity - killing two birds with one stone.

Wow - if any of you read all that and aren't spamming hateful comments or downvotes I commend you and wish you the best of luck in all your games. Thanks for stopping by.[slayer-jinx-catface]

5 Comments

AeroWaffle3/19/2018, 6:01:18 AM8 votes

How is it hypocritical?

There is a large difference between doing poorly in a job and doing poorly in league of legends. One is a video game. You should never be banned from a video game for playing poorly. The only thing that should happen is the system should try to adjust match-making so that you're paired with and against people of your skill level.

Playing poorly intentionally is punishable, but difficult to discern between unintentional bad play when viewed across millions of players and millions of games. It's impossible to have the manpower to manually look into every single intentional feeding report since a lot of players tend to get pretty salty about losing and will blame the player that did poorly on their team. So an automatic system needs to do the heavy lifting.

Such an automatic system needs to make sure that it's geared towards minimizing false positives, which leads to more false negatives.

It's not that Riot chooses to let intentional feeders go unpunished, but that the automatic system has a rough time deciding if many intentional feeders are actually intentional feeders, so it errs on the side of caution.

Awf Meta3/19/2018, 2:17:41 PM2 votes

There is a very simple solution that gets downvoted: TEMPORARY RANKED suspensions.

zockDoc3/19/2018, 10:16:58 AM1 votes

To be fair, you did have a few good points. However I think that your comparison was just not good enough. As the other commenter already pointed out, a workplace might not be the best analogy for a game. I think I might know a better comparison: I am part of a little wind band of about 30 people. Twice a week we meet in order to rehearse for our concerts. Of coure there are some people who play their instruments better than others and a few are a bit worse than the average. However, when one of us makes a mistake once or twice, we do not blame them, we encourage them to try again. It should work the same way in League and I think you said the same. The thing you said next though, is that you would also consider people who fail many times in a row because of stupid mistakes as feeding intentionally. That's where I think your example using a workspace does not hold anymore - simply because it is about money.

As stated above, our band consists of good and bad instrumentalists. But each and everyone of them has to practice on their own. Some of the worse players think, however, that they do not need to, and because of that they will often come to the rehearsals without even knowing how to play their parts. Because of that they will make many mistakes because of a stupid reason - just like in League. But what do we do when we see people did not practice? We don't cast them out. We encourage them to still do their best, even though we all know that we will suffer from their ignorance as well: The rehearsals take longer, we have to keep repeating the same parts over and over and in the worst case we will even make a bad figure at the concerts. But we still support them, because our wind band is a "team game" - it's not about one person who wants to make fast money, its about all of us together, and we knew that since we agreed to join the band, because this is how team games work. Everyone wants to get better and better, but we also want to grow better as a whole. And most importantly, we want to have fun - not just the good ones but the bad players as well.

Let me point out again that we are not talking about a professional environment here. If I were the leader of a pro LCS team and one of us kept on failing one game after the other I would swap him out as fast as I could.

Of course it would be even more fun if everyone of us were a Mozart from the start, but that simply isn't possible. And you know, even as a good instrumentalist you can learn from your and other peoples mistakes. Now, if a person for any reason whatsoever decides to intentionally play badly - and by that I don't mean failing the same part ten times in a row because they are tired but actually knowingly try to make the rehearsal as hard as possible - we of course cannot accept that. That person would soon be expelled. They might get a second chance in a few months but we will be strict. However I have never experienced such a thing in my 10 years of being a part of the band. Simply because no sane person would willingly destroy something that can be such a wonderful experience as playing an Instrument. The problem League has, is that in my opinion the players do not realize they are playing with real people - and even if you say 'I do know that those are real people', sometimes it is just too difficult to know what that means to a full extent, to always keep in mind that those people have their own interests, their own experiences, feelings... However that is a completely different topic. My personal opinion regarding trolls is - as many others say - that trolls are just a symptom of a severe disease. Treating the symptoms might work for a short amount of time, but sooner or later we have to tackle the disease as well.

Regarding people who lose their lane very hard: Do not lose your confidence, they are trying their best, even if it might not seem so. One day they will get better, and maybe it will be one of them you will have your best game of all time with.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]