I like what merits punishments / bans.

Niyumi·Sep 25, 2017·2 votes·1,098 views

If you go and feed your ass off, troll people, and generally make games miserable (you know, actually ruin games for people), you have a very, very low chance to get punished, if you even do at all. However, if you say anything that might potentially hurt someone's fragile little ego, then you are immediately punished, and can even lose your account for something as minor as being passive aggressive or just pessimistic.

Now, for some reason, that just seems ass backwards to me. Though today's SJW culture focused around vanity wouldn't agree with me.

And so, I was 14-day banned for, brace yourselves, complaining about champs in chat.

pauses as everyone gasps and faints

Yes, I know, horribly toxic. Never once did I flame anyone or attack anyone, but I was reported by my bad teammates who were tilted because they lost, and I got banned. Did I deserve it? I don't think so. I could see chat restricting for being annoying, but outright banning someone for complaining is a bit ridiculous.

And hey Tantrum, go ahead and smite me. I wanna see your justification, and I want everyone else to see it too. I never once broke the summoner's code or the TOS, and yet I'm still being punished just because I was reported and your auto bot saw trigger words.

I can only think of one sentence that could be considered harassment, and I wasn't even talking to him, nor do I have any way of talking to him.

49 Comments

ChermorgSep 25, 201710 votes

The reason for the discrepancy in punishment frequency between gameplay toxicity and chat toxicity is that it is very easy to build an automated system to detect/score chat toxicity, and it's very hard to build one for gameplay toxicity.

Chat is one-variable - it's just the English language. Computers are certainly able to have a general understanding of the English language, heck, someone literally trained their personal low-end computer within a day to write recipes that had good sentence structure/etc. A neural network is more than capable of pulling out meaning behind chat, as well as detecting when people are being negative.

Likewise, gameplay is multi-variable - there's hundreds of different variables, from what we can see (cs, kda, turrets, kill locations, etc) to what we can't see (heatmaps of where mouse/keyboard was used and how it was used, other champs' health when someone died, etc). Even within some of those variables they're multifaceted. Once you start throwing in many many variables, it gets a lot harder for a computer system to find patterns - not impossible, but harder. Hence why it's really easy to detect the person that runs it down mid for 20+ minutes, or that buys 6 boots from the beginning, but it's hard to detect the person that just so happens to "accidentally" flash under turret every time they have flash up but plays normally the rest of the game.

Riot's working on it. But the solution is not to stop punishing the behavior you can detect. The solution is to keep punishing all detected negative behavior, and continue improving the detection.

Further, as I hinted above, the system is pretty good at determining whether you're abusing someone or if you're just bantering or it's a one off comment. Everyone has slip ups. Tense teamfight, hands are on keyboard to try and win it, you die and let one rip at your teammate "wow fucking great engage there". You won't get punished for one rare slipup. However, if you are abusing your teammates constantly, for a large portion of the game, across multiple games, then you will be punished.

NiyumiSep 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The reason for the discrepancy in punishment frequency between gameplay toxicity and chat toxicity is that it is very easy to build an automated system to detect/score chat toxicity, and it's very hard to build one for gameplay toxicity.

This is the biggest reason right here. Riot can't be bothered to hire a team to manually review people who get reported almost every game (costs too much money, you know), but they're more than happy to build a program to auto ban people who offend whales (who are most often SJWs).

Riot's working on it. But the solution is not to stop punishing the behavior you can detect. The solution is to keep punishing all detected negative behavior, and continue improving the detection.

I never said they should stop punishing negative behavior. But they shouldn't outright ban someone for complaining in chat and being a bit passive aggressive. That's just ridiculous.

Further, as I hinted above, the system is pretty good at determining whether you're abusing someone or if you're just bantering or it's a one off comment.

No it doesn't. Every time I've been chat restricted or banned, I was never abusing anyone. I would complain in chat about a champ, talk about how they don't fit the lies Riot spews, make a comment or two on bad teams (without calling anyone out), and that's that. The bot just looks for buzz words or someone being reported a lot, and automatically punishes them regardless of context.

ChermorgSep 25, 20175 votes

{quoted}

This is the biggest reason right here. Riot can't be bothered to hire a team to manually review people who get reported almost every game (costs too much money, you know), but they're more than happy to build a program to auto ban people who offend whales (who are most often SJWs).

They do have that team, and they do review those players. Hence how you end up with suspensions of support nunu/singed until they talked to support. Again, the program does not punish mild and rare aggressiveness.

I never said they should stop punishing negative behavior. But they shouldn't outright ban someone for complaining in chat and being a bit passive aggressive. That's just ridiculous.

Again, they don't.

No it doesn't. Every time I've been chat restricted or banned, I was never abusing anyone. I would complain in chat about a champ, talk about how they don't fit the lies Riot spews, and that's that. The bot just looks for buzz words or someone being reported a lot, and automatically punishes them regardless of context.

I can't find where you've posted your chat logs from your suspensions. If you wouldn't mind linking me so I can confirm your claim you never abused anyone, that'd be great. Otherwise, your claims are about as good as the paper they're (aren't) written on.

NiyumiSep 25, 20171 votes

For my last chat restriction, look through my post history in player behavior. I even wrote down the context. For the snippit that the support agent said tipped it, look below. I'll copy-paste my chat logs though, so you can freak out about things ripped out of context.

Game 1

Sciela: Time for a new toaster Jhin. Sciela: But, a plat in my shitty, shitty MMR. That explains why you're so afraid of first picking. Sciela: How much did you pay? Sciela: So, remember that they have Zac. Sciela: The gank happy, bullshit, broken thing. Sciela: Watch for his ganks. Sciela: And here we go. Sciela: Why did no one tell me we have a troll top? I haven't dodged yet today. T_T Sciela: What do we do instead of nerfing the 100% pick or ban Zac? Sciela: Oh right, we buff him. Sciela: But that's putting quality first. Sciela: In high ELO he is. Sciela: Always has been. Sciela: And in LC$ he's still played every game. Sciela: You're just trying to protect your freelo, I get it. Sciela: Not like it really matters. Troll top fed Darius who is now free roaming. Sciela: In high ELO, he is. Sciela: I don't know what the secret is to getting teams that do something. Sciela: It's a troll. Sciela: Why do I even queue? Sciela: Like, really. Sciela: Wanna guess my winrate with Ornn? Sciela: 52%, over 63 games. Sciela: But, that'd be closer to 60-70% if I had real teams. Sciela: Unlike, you know, this one. Sciela: A boosted mid lane (actually boosted), troll top, Sciela: And my bot just can't do anything. Sciela: Challengers can't 1v5 fed teams. Sciela: Why would I be able to? Sciela: Well see, we have this troll top thing, meaning we have no bruisers or any reliable frontline damage. Sciela: And our ADC is bad. Sciela: Our mid doesn't know what they're doing. Sciela: So, Sciela: "Gold is the best ELO! PEople know what they're doing, and there's less trolls!" Sciela: I wish that were true. Sciela: Must be nice. Sciela: They're tilting me by feeding and being bad. Sciela: Yeah, no. Sciela: That's not trying. Sciela: Only one trying is Blitz. Sciela: 'cause complaining in chat is toxic. Sciela: Not a GG at all.

Game 2 Sciela: Let's see how fast I lose. Sciela: Oh, almost guaranteed my team is goinna feed. Sciela: And on top of that you have Veigar, Thresh, Jinx and Shyv, which all equate to freelo. Sciela: Who has a 70% winrate. Sciela: So, Sciela: God tier clears, god tier drag control, god tier damage, passive tank stats, Sciela: Man I wish Shyv was actually weak like they insist she is. Sciela: Yeah, what? Sciela: Putting her players to sleep? Sciela: because, especially after they buffed her, I'm not seeing any weakness. Sciela: Pushes W, gets 500 MS. Sciela: Says she can be kited. Sciela: Good joke. Sciela: He ACTUALLY CAN be kited, he has zero mobility, highly telegraphed. Sciela: Better drag control than WW. Sciela: But nah, she's weak. Sciela: In reality, she's just another pinup girl that makes money, so Riot pretends she's balanced in any way. Sciela: Both are HIGHLY telegraphed, slow skillshots. Sciela: And 20 health is not sustain. Sciela: With the AI of a potato. Sciela: Yeah except it has like a 3s casting lockout, and takes two more seconds to actually hit something. Sciela: And ADCs can just one shot it. Sciela: Best it can do is scare someone. Sciela: It also can't attack while moving, so again, kiting. Sciela: "We fixed Veigar guys! He's fair now! Yeah!" Sciela: "Just like we fixed Susan!" Sciela: Literally just wins or does nothing. Sciela: But we "hate" braindead statchecks. Sciela: Well I expected my mid laner to, you know, do something. Sciela: But his head is up his ass I guess. Sciela: Once again, in what fucking way is SHyv weak? Sciela: Oh wait, she's not., Sciela: She's horribly broken. Sciela: So the definition of toxic changes to whatever you don't like? Sciela: Mmk then. Sciela: She's beyond boring,. Sciela: Her only weakness. Sciela: Am I flaming anyone or calling anyone names? Sciela: Hmm... Sciela: Not toxic then. Sciela: 700 damage on a LONG RANGe, TARGETED Ability. Sciela: BUt that's counterplay. Sciela: That's fair. Sciela: OBviously. Sciela: Oh but silly me, having zero counterplay is only toxic if it's a champ that whales don't like. Sciela: They LOVE Veigar, since he's a braindead free win. Sciela: "Fair" Sciela: "Balanced" Sciela: "Counterplay" Sciela: When Shyv two shots a tank. Sciela: Yep. Sciela: Sure is fair. Sciela: And FULL of meaningful counterplay. Sciela: But we here at Riot would NEVER lie. Sciela: We put quality above all else, even money! Sciela: You're building lethality MF. Sciela: You are bronze. Sciela: No. Sciela: Maybe six months ago. Sciela: HEre's the difference. Sciela: Everything in my kit CAN BE AVOIDED VERY EASILY. Sciela: If you die to Yorick, it's because you fucked up. Sciela: Nope. Sciela: Shyvanna is literally a statcheck. Sciela: Jinx is a statcheck. Sciela: Veigar is one shot or nothing. Sciela: Every ADC is. Sciela: They either have enough stats to beat you, or they lose horribly. Sciela: That is a statcheck. Sciela: "Fair" Sciela: You can avoid 90% of MF's damage. Sciela: AD casters are different than AS stacking clickers. Sciela: Play Shyv, fall asleep, lose. Sciela: See you dodged that one. Sciela: She's broken. Sciela: God tier broken. Sciela: And I counter that with Urgot, Kindred, etc. Sciela: ONE THOUSAND FUCKING DAMAGE in one button that is both targeted and long range. Sciela: But trust me, Veigar's ult is garbage. Sciela: That's why we're buffing him. Sciela: Maybe if you built a good build, you'd win that fight. Sciela: As I expected you to. Sciela: But no.

Game 3 Sciela: Oh I doubt it'll be fun. Fully expecting my team to feed their asses off. Sciela: "WE ABSOLUTELY FUCKING HATE BRAINDEAD STATCHECKS! We justified reworking assassins and Vlad with that same reason!" Sciela: "But Win Nhao? Nah, fuck that, he makes money." Sciela: I taste a kid that thinks they're good for abusing freelo. Sciela: Go have a hobby for 20 years, and then have it ripped away and killed in front of you in the name of greed as morons cheer it on. Sciela: Be happy after that. ^^ Sciela: Don't know what you expect me to do. Sciela: "Don't worry, we would NEVER lie about broken champs or ignore champs that go against everything we fucking preach if they make money" Sciela: Man, so happy F2P is a thing. Sciela: "Juggernauts win if they can get in range of someone. We promise!" Sciela: "Except any AS stacking braindead clicker destroys juggernauts. But that's not true" Sciela: Like, it took you 30 seconds to kill me. Sciela: Not less than two. Sciela: Obviously. Sciela: Riot. Sciela: See, Riot is this thing called greedy. Sciela: They lie repeatedly, and make false promises. Sciela: And, were they any other business, they'd be put out of business for false advertising and cheating customers. Sciela: But the world is run by greeyd fucks. Sciela: You have three people. Sciela: Defend it yourself. Sciela: You can CC rift. Sciela: You have Lux and Trist. Sciela: Easy defense. Sciela: You notice how when I pushed, that 4 became 3? Sciela: Hm. Sciela: I honestly hope someone beats the living fuck out of Beck. Sciela: And every other greedy CEO. Sciela: "Counterplay" Sciela: "Fair" Sciela: "Windows of power" Sciela: "Meaningful weaknesses" Sciela: Oh huh, none of those apply. Sciela: But trust us, Win Nhao is not broken at all! Sciela: Wish I had that much talent. Sciela: Takes a god to play braindead clickers. Sciela: "AD CHAMPIONS ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT BROKEN!" Sciela: So, remind me why, with TWO HUNDRED FUCKING ARMOR and ninja tabi, I take 1000 damage an auto? Sciela: Could it be... Riot was lying? Sciela: Oh but no, they put quality first! Sciela: I AM A JUGGERNAUT Sciela: THAT IS MY FUCKING JOB Sciela: Zero mobility? Sciela: Zero range? Sciela: HAHAHAHAH! Sciela: Xin has no mobility now? Sciela: Oh wow, I wask ind of dead. Sciela: And kept our fucking base up. Sciela: "We give a fuck":

So... who was I flaming and abusing? I mostly just see myself ranting and freaking out, as well as a bit of passive aggressiveness towards my teams that were all feeding / trolling that day. Again, I could see chat restricting for being annoying, but to outright ban someone for that is ridiculous.

ChermorgSep 25, 20176 votes

You start each game by basically berating your team for something that hasn't happened.

You're negative throughout the entire game. It doesn't matter if you're doing it towards teammates, or champs, you're talking so much and it's all negative that it creates an overall negative attitude in the game.

Throw in the splatters of abuse towards your teammates, however rare they may be, and that's a valid restriction.

NiyumiSep 25, 20171 votes

Alright, but nowhere in the summoner's code or the TOS does it say you can't be negative. Never saw a rule saying you must be happy and positive and bubbly.

ChermorgSep 25, 20176 votes

The Summoner's Code that's linked in client/website isn't meant to be the be all end all. It's meant to be a general guide, from which most people would infer that negative attitude is not permitted.

Further, the Terms of Use say Riot can suspend/restrict your account in any way they want, even if they don't have a reason.

NiyumiSep 26, 20171 votes

I don't really think people infer that you are required to be bright and cheery 100% of the time. This is a competitive game, and it's just silly to have that kind of expectation -- so no one does.

Yeah, and that little clause should be illegal. But we don't do anything because greed runs the world.

TyrekGoldenspearSep 26, 20174 votes

Oh Sciela, you come up with the silliest conclusions.

BettnachlegerNov 8, 20171 votes

Negative attitude is a report reason?! So I think it's punishable ...

Kei143Sep 25, 20174 votes

chat logs, or it didn't happen.

Icy Hot ShotoSep 25, 20173 votes

Money doesn't give you power. If spending a single penny was all it took to keep from getting banned, there'd be a lot more toxic people running around.

Feeding/inting/trolling is a bit harder to find, especially if it's not stated anywhere in the pre-game, in-game, or post-game chat by the summoner themself. Riot, however, is fixing their current detection system to help with this problem.

vallshaSep 25, 20171 votes

their detection system has been like this for a while now though if i remember correctly, its never been fair or just in any sense, at least when we had the tribunal players got the FULL chat logs instead of just riots copy paste of only what you say,it makes everyone who gets suspended or banned instantly seem guilty cause its everything taken out of context, if this keeps up im going to file a complaint, ask for my money to be refunded because the service they promised is not being met, and if they dont wanna do that ill just go ahead and speak to a lawyer cause this is bullshit, its happened to multiple of my friends who dont even talk in chat often one of whom literally mains rammus only and all he says in chat is "okay" .......he got banned for that. saying okay got him banned

NiyumiSep 25, 20171 votes

... what? I never said anything about money meaning people shouldn't be banned. I just said banning someone for complaining in chat is absurd.

Icy Hot ShotoSep 25, 20173 votes

Context doesn't matter. You shouldn't be firing back flame. If you are, you get punished as well. If you don't want toxic people in your games, then no one wants you in their games if you respond to flame with flame.

NiyumiSep 25, 20171 votes

Read what I said. I was never flaming anyone. I was just ranting to myself complaining about champs.

Icy Hot ShotoSep 25, 20174 votes

I can only believe you were, considering you haven't posted your chat logs but in your post say you were only complaining about champions.

Want us to believe it, without anyone assuming, post the logs and don't just complain.

NiyumiSep 25, 20171 votes

Here's a copy-paste from my support ticket asking what merited my ban. The agent said these were the things that set off the bot. Though I can get full chat logs if you want.

[0:16] [All] Sciela (Ornn): Time for a new toaster Jhin. -- (We spent ~6m in the loading screen) [0:29] Sciela (Ornn): But, a plat in my shitty, shitty MMR. That explains why you're so afraid of first picking. [0:39] Sciela (Ornn): How much did you pay? -- (My mid laner was actually boosted) [11:48] [All] Sciela (Ornn): Why do I even queue? -- (As my team is feeding out of their minds) [11:50] [All] Sciela (Ornn): Like, really. [12:26] [All] Sciela (Ornn): Wanna guess my winrate with Ornn? [12:31] [All] Sciela (Ornn): 52%, over 63 games. [12:39] [All] Sciela (Ornn): But, that'd be closer to 60-70% if I had real teams. [12:41] [All] Sciela (Ornn): Unlike, you know, this one. [18:42] [All] Sciela (Ornn): They're tilting me by feeding and being bad. -- (Top was a troll, mid was boosted as I said, and bot was behind 10 kills) [22:22] [All] Sciela (Yorick): I honestly hope someone beats the living fuck out of Beck. -- (Hey look, the one and only sentence I would even consider harassment from my chat logs) [22:25] [All] Sciela (Yorick): And every other greedy CEO. [19:13] [All] Sciela (Kindred): You're right, I should be ECSTATIC that fucking assholes like Beck destroy gaming and morons enable him.

ModPeriscopeSep 25, 20173 votes

You get punished for severity and frequency of your actions. At any rate, you can post your log and we can discuss whether a punishment was warranted.

TyrekGoldenspearSep 25, 20173 votes

Reads title.

You know...

I think you actually don't like what merits punishments.

HarlusSep 25, 20171 votes

I got banned a few days ago and I wasn't under the influence of a chat restrict or anything, just straight up banned xdd

NiyumiSep 25, 20171 votes

That means you were using "hate speech" and triggered some poor SJW.

vallshaSep 25, 20171 votes

its bullshit, we put money into the game to help their company and enjoy our matches and they punish us for the smallest shit, but when you have feeders, or a toxic premade you get screwed over and they dont do anything about it

NiyumiSep 25, 20171 votes

Well see, they can't prove if you're a feeder / troll or just bad (outside of extreme cases), but they can screenshot your chat logs in a vacuum and make you look like a bad person even if you're not.

If they accidentally ban someone for feeding or trolling when they're actually just bad, then they could lose a lot of money from people leaving and run into potential lawsuits (though their ToS scam protects them from a lot of that). But if they can make your chat look negative and "toxic", since it's pulled out of context, then they can ban you with no repercussions at all -- and today's vain society would applaud them for it. Plus, it's easy for them to make you buy more skins, IP / XP boosts and all that if they just take away your account.

It's all about money.

Granted, some people are toxic, but even then I don't think banning them is the right approach. I would reserve bans for trolls, cheaters and people who actually ruin games for others. The most I'd do to someone who flames or abuses chat is indefinitely chat restrict them until they show improvement.

vallshaSep 25, 20171 votes

exactly they say they care about their player base but they fucking don't they are just fucking greedy its bullshit, i have all talk turned off and all they say when you get raged by your teammates is "just ignore it" fuckwits it doesnt go away just because you dont respond, people start using the blast plants to sabotage you into the enemy teams, people wont help you when they are fully capable it's bullshit

vallshaSep 25, 20171 votes

i fucking hate dota cause its more complex to the point that its asinine and yet im gonna just move over to that permanently because its getting ridiculous dealing with riots bullshit, this ban system is exactly like what happened when i got assaulted at school, some kid didnt like he got punished or criticized for being mean to me by my friends so he ran up and just choked me out and started beating me up, got taken to jail for assault and the school officials said "its good you didnt defend yourself we are proud of you for not fighting back" i just got fucking assaulted you dumb fuck and you say your happy i didnt fight back?! what would have happened if the guy had a knife? its bullshit thats riots logic

EvilDustManSep 25, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Well see, they can't prove if you're a feeder / troll or just bad (outside of extreme cases), but they can screenshot your chat logs in a vacuum and make you look like a bad person even if you're not.

If they accidentally ban someone for feeding or trolling when they're actually just bad, then they could lose a lot of money from people leaving and run into potential lawsuits (though their ToS scam protects them from a lot of that). But if they can make your chat look negative and "toxic", since it's pulled out of context, then they can ban you with no repercussions at all -- and today's vain society would applaud them for it. Plus, it's easy for them to make you buy more skins, IP / XP boosts and all that if they just take away your account.

It's all about money.

Granted, some people are toxic, but even then I don't think banning them is the right approach. I would reserve bans for trolls, cheaters and people who actually ruin games for others. The most I'd do to someone who flames or abuses chat is indefinitely chat restrict them until they show improvement.

Wow. That logic was so bent out of shape it formed a mobius strip.

TrulyBlandSep 25, 20172 votes

I guess that makes it a very one-sided argument. Ba Dum Tss!

NiyumiSep 25, 20171 votes

You can deny it if you want, but unfortunately it's the truth.

HarlusSep 25, 20171 votes

No even worse than hate speech... i said "k y s" to my Lux at the beginning of the game because my friend was playing the Lux song in Discord. Literally got banned (not chat restricted) for saying %%%, nothing else

NiyumiSep 25, 20172 votes

Yep, Riot doesn't care about context. I have to be very careful to censor myself when I play with my family and friends, even if what I say doesn't bother them, because of other people.

But, for your case, if you get your Lux friend to send Riot an email or ticket explaining the situation, they might lift your ban (assuming you don't have a track record).

The Skull KingSep 25, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Yep, Riot doesn't care about context. I have to be very careful to censor myself when I play with my family and friends, even if what I say doesn't bother them, because of other people.

But, for your case, if you get your Lux friend to send Riot an email or ticket explaining the situation, they might lift your ban (assuming you don't have a track record).

You can't act like a savage in public, so why do it in league? If you and you're buddies are duoing or whatever and saying things someone else finds offensive in game, why can't you just cool it or use discord? It seems like you want everyone to bend a knee to what you want.

NiyumiSep 25, 20172 votes

Thing is, fucking snowflakes find EVERYTHING offensive. Almost everyone in my area who grew up in the 90s uses the TERRIBLE F word (not fuck, the other one) as a general expression of disliking someone/something. Now, what happens when you use that word these days? You're branded a homophobe, a bigot, all kinds of things... because you used a word they don't like.

I don't want people to bend knee to what I want, I just want people to mind their own business and let other people live as they would (within reason). It's the SJWs that expect you to bend knee.

ModPrandineSep 25, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Thing is, fucking snowflakes find EVERYTHING offensive. Almost everyone in my area who grew up in the 90s uses the TERRIBLE F word (not fuck, the other one) as a general expression of disliking someone/something. Now, what happens when you use that word these days? You're branded a homophobe, a bigot, all kinds of things... because you used a word they don't like.

I don't want people to bend knee to what I want, I just want people to mind their own business and let other people live as they would (within reason). It's the SJWs that expect you to bend knee.

"Within reason" does not involve constantly berating and harassing other players. I find that the people who throw around terms like "sjw" and "oversensitive" are often the ones who fit those terms the best since they hate the fact that they're actually being held accountable for their poor online behavior. From Ulanopo's Knowledge Base:

People who report are simply being oversensitive. The mute button exists for a reason.

Lets start with the Riot quote on this (link (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=30696571#post30696571)):

Why is verbal abuse punishable if there is a mute button/language filter? Players shouldnt need to rely on features like the mute button or language filter to engage with other players in positive ways. When a player verbally abuses another player and forces him to use the mute button, they have already created a negative experience for that player.

Simply put, Riot says no. You can scream and cry all you want, but it is their house and their rules.

With that out of the way, I think the topic deserves some further discussion. The theory is that, if people resolved to care less, then they would be happier. I often refer to this as Argument from Stoicism and I think it is a fairly weak philosophy because it places the burden on the person being expected to endure the behavior rather than the person exhibiting the behavior. You should be able to handle it is just a flimsy excuse for being a bully or a jerk. I have to be the bigger man so that you can do whatever you want? That hardly seems fair.

There is also the issue of how I spend my limited free time. Like most people, I am constantly required to make value judgments between the different forms of entertainment that are available to me and, let's be honest, we live in an age of nearly limitless entertainment options. If I'm having a bad day in League, I can just fire up Steam and play a whole bunch of games that don't require me to put up with someone's BS.

This is not an issue of weakness or thin-skin; it's a question of choosing activities that don't leave me feeling frustrated and angry. Too many of those experiences and I'll just find something else to do. Riot knows this.

NiyumiSep 26, 20171 votes

Constantly harassing and berating people? Yeah just indefinitely chat restrict them, and the issue is gone. What good does banning them do? They'll just make a new account and continue whatever they were doing.

they have already created a negative experience for that player.

This bit right here? Yeah, when you play as if you're a 5 year old, or don't listen at all when people try to help you, or intentionally feed, or troll... that creates a negative experience for me. But, we don't punish people for that, because they're just "new" or "bad players" rather than asshats that ruin the game for people.

...it places the burden on the person being expected to endure the behavior rather than the person exhibiting the behavior. I have to be the bigger man so that you can do whatever you want? That hardly seems fair.

... So this supports your argument? Why then, do I have to just put up with people who ACTUALLY ruin my games for me by not caring and playing badly, trolling, feeding, and all that? As he said, it hardly seems fair.

ModPrandineSep 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Constantly harassing and berating people? Yeah just indefinitely chat restrict them, and the issue is gone. What good does banning them do? They'll just make a new account and continue whatever they were doing.

Riot tried permamutes and found that most of these players would just switch to more subtle, harder to track and prove forms of griefing such as int. feeding and gameplay trolling to name a few. This is why the IFS was created, to remove these kinds of players faster. Yes trolls can just make new accounts after a ban but they'll soon find that those new accounts are quickly banned as well forcing them to eventually either shape up or ship out. It's not the perfect solution (hint: there is none) but it works.

This bit right here? Yeah, when you play as if you're a 5 year old, or don't listen at all when people try to help you, or intentionally feed, or troll... that creates a negative experience for me. But, we don't punish people for that, because they're just "new" or "bad players" rather than asshats that ruin the game for people.

Intent is the key word here, which is harder to prove than simple chat-related offenses are. It's also why the system is tuned to be conservative so as not to falsely punish people who are new or are having a bad game or two.

Rest assured though that gameplay related offenses when proven to be on purpose are assigned a 14-day ban as the first punishment. In case you don't believe me on this point here are two examples of gameplay trolls being banned. Yes it's just two examples, but it proves that they do get punished.

... So this supports your argument? Why then, do I have to just put up with people who ACTUALLY ruin my games for me by not caring and playing badly, trolling, feeding, and all that? As he said, it hardly seems fair.

I'm not saying that people who go out of their way to intentionally ruin games aren't at fault: they are. However, what good does yelling and raging at them do? Absolutely nothing. In fact, most times it just encourages them to continue on with their behavior even more as they're getting the negative reaction that they want. Don't give them that and chances are they'll stop with their poor behavior (not always but some do).

P.S. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom of consequences of said speech and does not apply to privately owned businesses like Riot Games.

TrulyBlandSep 25, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Almost everyone in my area who grew up in the 90s uses the TERRIBLE F word (not fuck, the other one) as a general expression of disliking someone/something.

Fun little question: Why do you think it is used as an insult? Why is "gay" a synonym for "stupid", or "bad", or whatever? Why are words like homo or dicksucker thrown around as insults?

You might not be a homophobe if you are using these words as insults... but you are perpetuating a society that considers homosexuality bad by literally using homosexuality as a metaphor for everything bad.

Here's the thing: If you use a descriptive word for another human being as an insult, then it becomes ultimately insulting to that human. Otherwise it wouldn't be an insult.

If you use SJW as an insult, then it's clear you also don't like SJW. Using "Apple user" as an insult shows a dislike for people who buy apple products. When somebody calls another person a "Hipster" in an attempt to insult them, then obviously they don't like hipsters. And if I from now on decided to call everybody without any shred of empathy a "Sciela", it would most certainly be insulting to you.

So how do you think does it make you look, when you use an insult that originated from the hatred towards homosexuals?

NiyumiSep 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Here's the thing: If you use a descriptive word for another human being as an insult, then it becomes ultimately insulting to that human. Otherwise it wouldn't be an insult.

No. It is only insulting if you make it insulting. If you don't have paper-thin skin and you're not bent on vanity, then you don't care and ignore it, rather than freaking out. Words can have different meanings -- depends on who you ask.

If you use SJW as an insult, then it's clear you also don't like SJW.

Oh I hate SJWs. But if I call someone an SJW, it's not just a generic insult, it's because they are acting like one, and fitting the definition. If I insult a product and say it's as bad as an Apple, then I'm comparing some aspect of it to Apple.

And if I from now on decided to call everybody without any shred of empathy a "Sciela", it would most certainly be insulting to you.

Actually it wouldn't. I wouldn't even care.

So how do you think does it make you look, when you use an insult that originated from the hatred towards homosexuals?

Alrighty, so I can't type everything I want to on the boards, since they're run by hyper-sensitive little brats, but I can say this: I did not grow up using that word to insult gays or insinuate hatred towards them. I didn't even know what gay was until I was in like 6th grade.

Now, say I was using it as a way to mock gays. Well, I have every right to. In America, we have this thing called freedom of speech, which includes having opinions that other people may not like. So, if I wanted to say I didn't like them, no one can tell me I can't, and I wouldn't particularly care how others viewed it anyway.

And now, let's say that I actually do use that word to describe certain people. There are two types of gay people: The ones that just quietly live their lives however they want, and don't try to force other people to like, accept and applaud them... and the hyper vain fucking brats that are the source of the concept of SJW, and try to ram their ideals down everyone's throats, coming up with all kinds of fake names to insult people that don't -- all while sweeping up gullible people to help them coerce people who don't do what they want.

The first one I have no issue with, though I don't agree with their lifestyle. The second one I want to beat the snot out of, and I will call them whatever name I want -- not because they're gay, but because I hate fucking vanity.

TrulyBlandSep 26, 20173 votes

{quoted}

No. It is only insulting if you make it insulting. If you don't have paper-thin skin and you're not bent on vanity, then you don't care and ignore it, rather than freaking out. Words can have different meanings -- depends on who you ask.

Did you read what I wrote? I talked specifically about insults. Insults are made to be insulting by definition. Which kind of makes the first half of your entire post moot. You also have a thing for confusing action and reaction here. Somebody who uses an insult is insulting, once again by definition. It doesn't matter if the insulted person cares or not. It's also victim shaming of the finest to look at somebody purposefully being insulting and putting that on the person that is insulted.

Now, say I was using it as a way to mock gays. Well, I have every right to. In America, we have this thing called freedom of speech, which includes having opinions that other people may not like. So, if I wanted to say I didn't like them, no one can tell me I can't, and I wouldn't particularly care how others viewed it anyway.

Oh, but people are not allowed to call you out on implicitly exacerbate homophobia? Actually scratch that: People are not allowed to call you out on your glaring homophobia? Because that last part of this post really shows your true colours.

To quote you:

I don't want people to bend knee to what I want, I just want people to mind their own business and let other people live as they would (within reason)

I guess you forgot to add "unless you are openly gay" to that.

Edit: Also, a little side-note: I recommend actually informing yourself a little more about the "lifestyle" of being gay. Apart from the fact that the data clearly supports a genetic predisposition, there are numerous other factors that basically exclude any kind of choice as a reasonable explanation for homosexuality.

NiyumiSep 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Did you read what I wrote? I talked specifically about insults. Insults are made to be insulting by definition.

An insult is a word with negative connotations that is used to demean or belittle someone. The word itself can even be meaningless on its own (such as the modern usage of "damn"). An insult does not need to stem from some hatred of something or anything like that. It's just a word on its own.

Oh, but people are not allowed to call you out on implicitly exacerbate homophobia?

Go for it. But the moment you use the term homophobia, I'm going to disregard everything you say since I know it's just the sheep in you talking.

I guess you forgot to add "unless you are openly gay" to that.

My cousin is gay, and is married to another guy. My ENTIRE family is hardcore Catholic (excluding my direct family and myself). Wanna know how much differently we treat him and his husband? We don't. They're the same people they always have been, and we treat them as such. We might not like the fact that he's gay, but we don't treat him any differently for it.

Edit: Also, a little side-note: I recommend actually informing yourself a little more about the "lifestyle" of being gay. Apart from the fact that the data clearly supports a genetic predisposition, there are numerous other factors that basically exclude any kind of choice as a reasonable explanation for homosexuality.

They have spent BILLIONS to try and find the gay gene, with nothing to show for it. It's a result of mental issues, coercion, vanity, or just a choice you make yourself.

I know it's hard to admit reality though.

TrulyBlandSep 26, 20173 votes

{quoted}

An insult is a word with negative connotations that is used to demean or belittle someone. The word itself can even be meaningless on its own (such as the modern usage of "damn"). An insult does not need to stem from some hatred of something or anything like that. It's just a word on its own.

You really had to be as vague and general as possible to make that point, right? An insult does not need to stem from some hatred of something... but all the insults revolving around homosexuality most definitely do.

They have spent BILLIONS to try and find the gay gene, with nothing to show for it.

How do you explain that identical twins are more likely to have the same sexuality than fraternal twins? Not everything is *a* gene. In fact most things are not *a* gene. That doesn't mean it's not genetic. It just means it's a little more complex than just one specific gene being switched "on" or "off". Edit: But I fear that might be going over your head since you also seem to assume that there is no genetic part in mental issues either.

NiyumiSep 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

... all the insults revolving around homosexuality most definitely do.

I grew up using the F word as an insult long before I knew what homosexuality was. To me, it's just an exclamation of disliking something. Doesn't stem from anything.

Not everything is *a* gene. In fact most things are not *a* gene. That doesn't mean it's not genetic. It just means it's a little more complex than just one specific gene being switched "on" or "off".

Okay, so if it was genetic, it would be widespread throughout nature, since we share over 90% of our DNA with every living thing on the planet. But, it's not. Oh sure, but dolphins and lions, right? Well, that's a show of power, dominating lesser males. It's also just them pleasuring themselves with the nearest body regardless of gender.

So, I'm done with this conversation after this. I know the mods are just waiting to ban me (one in particular).

TrulyBlandSep 26, 20173 votes

{quoted}

I grew up using the F word as an insult long before I knew what homosexuality was. To me, it's just an exclamation of disliking something. Doesn't stem from anything.

I'm talking about the origins of the words being used as insults. I'm talking about the reason why those words gained such popularity as insults.

Okay, so if it was genetic, it would be widespread throughout nature, since we share over 90% of our DNA with every living thing on the planet.

Not blaming you for this, since it's an often repeated fact, but this is incredibly misleading. To illustrate why: We also share 50% of our DNA with bananas. Yet, I hope you agree that drawing any conclusions from banana DNA to human behaviour makes no sense whatsoever.

Reason being: Apart from the fact that not all genes are active to begin with, even of the active genes, a lot are just for us to function on a very basic level.

JustMonika13Sep 26, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Now, say I was using it as a way to mock gays. Well, I have every right to. In America, we have this thing called freedom of speech, which includes having opinions that other people may not like. So, if I wanted to say I didn't like them, no one can tell me I can't, and I wouldn't particularly care how others

The thing is, as it's written, Freedom of Speech only protects you from the Government attempting to quell opinions. It does nothing to stop private property owners from imposing their own rules. It's their house, their rules. You start being an obnoxious piece of shit in a restaurant, you'll be told to leave (yes, even without your food). Same thing with Riot.

The Skull KingSep 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Thing is, fucking snowflakes find EVERYTHING offensive. Almost everyone in my area who grew up in the 90s uses the TERRIBLE F word (not fuck, the other one) as a general expression of disliking someone/something. Now, what happens when you use that word these days? You're branded a homophobe, a bigot, all kinds of things... because you used a word they don't like.

I don't want people to bend knee to what I want, I just want people to mind their own business and let other people live as they would (within reason). It's the SJWs that expect you to bend knee.

I get it. I also grew up in the 90s and yes I've used the same word back in the day with my friends and we called each other one of the few Voldemort words you're not allowed to say. I've been called it many times and have called other people it many times. If someone wants to call me a bigot or homophobic, go wild. I don't go out of my way to say it to homosexuals or belittle homosexuals. I don't care what a random person thinks of me. The word doesn't mean anything to me personally and I don't care what evil other people stuck to the word. I'm a sticks and stones kind of person, but times are different. I mean I just don't say it anymore because it's not like it used to be.

themachampSep 25, 20171 votes

Well, don't forget, Riot's HQ is in Los Angeles. A very liberal city within a very liberal state. So of course they think words hurt more than actions. If you tell someone something that makes them feel bad they will chat restrict or ban you for it. Yet, actions are just a form of expression to them, so they let players express themselves a lot. Some examples of people expressing themselves in my games....elise running it down mid, heimer afking with turrets to reset krugs, 6 tear draven, a kat that stole mid and forced a double mid( after i was assigned the role in ranked), passive inting, flashing into the enemy base to /d etc. I bookmarked all of these people just to keep track and they just keep playing daily with no absence longer than 4 days. Which means they received 0 punishments.

Be careful though, call them an a$$hole for ruining your game and YOU will get banned for it. That's why my friends and I say that riot has a " Bend over and take it" policy. You just have to take it from the trolls, griefers, etc. or you will get punished instead.....aka....you're fucked either way >>.

NiyumiSep 25, 20171 votes

Yep, ain't it nice?

Used to be trolls were banned, and people were mature and non-vain enough to just ignore chat they didn't like. But now we have to coddle all the little assholes and punish people who don't rightly deserve it.

Funny part about California is that a lot of it is Conservative. It's just one section that basically dictates to the rest of the state. Same with Washington, Oregon and a lot of typically blue states.

Its RevengeSep 25, 20171 votes

Why doesn't Riot focus on banning scripters as fast as they do "toxic" players intead. In most obvious cases with ADC that have 500 plus APM continue playing untill ban waves yet this shit is ruining others ranked until Riot does. This is what Riot should focus on so these spinning in circles ADC like Kog and Jinx players scripting are out of the game after one match. I'm talking couldnt be more clear yet you focus on swear words.

ModPrandineSep 25, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Its Revenge,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=BL0LGltd,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-09-25T22:31:57.197+0000)

Why doesn't Riot focus on banning scripters as fast as they do "toxic" players intead. In most obvious cases with ADC that have 500 plus APM continue playing untill ban waves yet this shit is ruining others ranked until Riot does. This is what Riot should focus on so these spinning in circles ADC like Kog and Jinx players scripting are out of the game after one match. I'm talking couldnt be more clear yet you focus on swear words.

Gameplay related offenses when proven to be on purpose are assigned a 14-day ban as the first punishment. In case you don't believe me on this point here are two examples of gameplay trolls being banned. Yes it's just two examples, but it proves that they do get punished.

Also, it's a back-and-forth battle with the scripters with both sides trying to out-do the others. This is why Riot does bans in waves, to lessen the chances of the scripters catching on to how exactly they catch them.