Riot, your punishment system is counterproductive, and here's why.

TheWizardM··2 votes·1,390 views

(For those who have read my recent comments on the board, this is basically summing those points up in a post rather than a comment, as so far my posts have said half the story and my comments the rest, which isn't really useful for bringing a point across)

It is vague. It is vague as to why you're getting punished, it doesn't provide a warning when you break the rules in a way that is not severe enough for a punishment. This vagueness results in the system being perceived as random - after all, this is exactly the same way rng works on a pc. A pc never actually generates a random number (or at least, most pcs don't. Some pcs, mostly those used for either scientific purposes or in some cases game servers use hardware rng), instead, it follows a pattern that is hard to track, and conceals this pattern to the end user. A system that is percieved as rng has the exact same impact on a user as actual rng. Combine that with harsh punishments and no visible strike system, and you got League's punishment system.

Now you may be wondering why it matters if the punishment system can be percieved as rng by those punished? After all, it still punishes those who break the rules, right? Yes, it still punishes those who break the rules, but the point of a punishment system is not to punish, it is to prevent repetition, and this is where League's system fails. It gives little feedback as to why a person got punished specifically. It often provides 1-3 chat logs, leaving the player to figure out where they actually went wrong. Some players will think "hey, I got punished, but he said some of the same stuff, but he didn't!" and conclude that it's random. This will either make them more toxic, as, to them, it feels like it doesn't affect the risk of getting punished whatsoever, or, combined with the harsh punishments, it makes them fear chatting altogether, as who knows what might trigger the system!

Here's a few examples of systems that, as far as I can tell, work better:

  1. Three strike system (or any other number). In a three strike system, players won't feel cheated when they get their first warning, and they get another chance afterwards in case they didn't fully udnerstand what triggered the first warning.
  2. Scalable punishment system (where the punishment scales with severity, not with wheter you got punished before). Even if when you get punished might feel random, the severity will not. Over time players will conclude that yes, being more toxic does result in worse punishments, which in turn makes them less likely to be toxic in the future.
  3. Visible point system. In this system, each infraction gives a set amount of points, rather than a game as a whole causing a punishment, reaching a set amount of points does. This makes it easier for players to figure out what not to do, and removes any feeling of randomness.

All three of these systems have some visible leeway, which can be abused to some extend, but up to a limit, which, in my opinion, is better than what we currently have.

47 Comments

ModThe Djinn8 votes

We effectively have your second proposed system, because more serious behavior will get you an escalated punishment. The only difference is that currently repeat behavior without Improvement will increase your punishment. It will do so predictably and reliably, unless your behavior is severe enough to warrant an escalation.

The reason it does this is that taking the proposal exactly as you made it there would result in a lot of low-grade toxicity that will never be removed from the community because it will simply keep getting chat restrictions.

TheWizardM2 votes

Yes, more serious behaviour does get a worse punishment, but the low-end punishments are already fairly high, and to most, getting banned for 14 days is not really different from getting permabanned. To others, geting chat restricted is just as bad as getting banned for a few days. The scale is quite small.

The problem isn't about how predictable the punishment is, it is about how predictable getting punished is.

I'm not saying my proposals are perfect, but they are better than what we now have. Also, my third proposal gets around that problem altogether.

ModThe Djinn4 votes

{quoted}Yes, more serious behaviour does get a worse punishment, but the low-end punishments are already fairly high, and to most, getting banned for 14 days is not really different from getting permabanned.

Source? If anything I'd say getting banned for 14-days isn't much different from getting chat restricted, given the number of people I've seen who don't understand the punishments are serious until after the permanent ban.

To others, geting chat restricted is just as bad as getting banned for a few days.

I have legitimately never encountered this in all my years on the boards. Not saying you're wrong, but I think it's extremely rare.

The problem isn't about how predictable the punishment is, it is about how predictable getting punished is.

It's pretty predictable, frankly, and if you make it much more predictable it becomes easier and easier to game the system.

Also, my third proposal gets around that problem altogether.

By creating a system that tells you exactly when it is safe to troll a game or insult other players, which I can't get on board with.

TheWizardM2 votes

Source? The lowest end punishment is a 10-game chat restrict (As far as I can tell, I haven't seen Riot release anythign about punishments, though)

My point isn't about how similar the punishments are or aren't, my point is that the lowest punishment is quite high, which creates (part of) the effect I descriped in my post.

It really is not predictable. AS for gaming the system, yes, that would be possible, but only to a limited extend. This is pretty much the same reason the laws of a country are public. Having some people game the system to a certain extend is significantly less bad than having people not realize theft or rape is illegal.

I miswrote in my last message x). Those are examples, not proposals. Even then, the point system wouldnt have to be very precise, it's more about giving players adequate warning.

ModThe Djinn4 votes

{quoted}Source? The lowest end punishment is a 10-game chat restrict (As far as I can tell, I haven't seen Riot release anythign about punishments, though)

This very board. See the number of people who complain about permanent bans, and how they should get another chance, or complain about going from a restriction straight to a 14-day ban. The number of complaints about someone going from a 10-game restriction to a 25-game restriction are almost non-existent.

My point isn't about how similar the punishments are or aren't, my point is that the lowest punishment is quite high, which creates (part of) the effect I descriped in my post.

A 10-game chat restriction is pretty much a slap on the wrist. What would you consider a suitably small punishment?

It really is not predictable. AS for gaming the system, yes, that would be possible, but only to a limited extend. This is pretty much the same reason the laws of a country are public. Having some people game the system to a certain extend is significantly less bad than having people not realize theft or rape is illegal.

It's predictable enough that in about 99% of situations where that boards sees a punishment that earned more than a chat restriction and asks if there was a prior punishment, it turns out there was. It's also predictable enough that in 99% of cases where someone IS punished their logs contain behavior we would expect to see punished.

I miswrote in my last message x). Those are examples, not proposals. Even then, the point system wouldnt have to be very precise, it's more about giving players adequate warning.

Do you feel that the Summoner's Code, and the known fact that Riot punishes transgressions of it, is not adequate warning? If so, may I ask why?

TheWizardM2 votes

chat restrictions aren't a slap on the wrist. People are social animals, and play videogames to socialize. Having to play 10 games without chatting is a chore. Admittedly, they're not extremely severe, but, especially since they're not preceded by warnings, I'd say its a bit on the harsh side.

It's not. And talking about the boards, many of the posts here just prove my point. People can't see where they are breaking the rules, and thus aren't fully aware of what the rules mean.

Because people have difficulty interpreting the rules, and they always will. Especially if you're bad at English. For instance, I only today found out what kys means. I have never used the word, but I can imagine non-natives picking up words like that and using them without realizing they are breaking the rules.

ModThe Djinn3 votes

{quoted}chat restrictions aren't a slap on the wrist. People are social animals, and play videogames to socialize. Having to play 10 games without chatting is a chore. Admittedly, they're not extremely severe, but, especially since they're not preceded by warnings, I'd say its a bit on the harsh side.

And you can totally feel that way. Bluntly, the system is likely designed around data Riot has on effective punishments rather than your opinions, as before the current system they tried a number of alternatives on larger or smaller scales. I don't mean that in a rude way, but at some point it stops being based on opinions and starts being based on "data that has shown to result in the least instances of recurring behavior."

It's not. And talking about the boards, many of the posts here just prove my point. People can't see where they are breaking the rules, and thus aren't fully aware of what the rules mean.

Because people have difficulty interpreting the rules, and they always will. Especially if you're bad at English. For instance, I only today found out what kys means. I have never used the word, but I can imagine non-natives picking up words like that and using them without realizing they are breaking the rules.

This is true, but it's sadly part of the reality of behavioral systems -- we see this on the boards when doing moderation, for example. If there is any uncertainty or ambiguity in the rules some people will be puzzled, yes -- but, on the flip side, if there is NO uncertainty or ambiguity in the rules people will get as close to them as possible and find ways to harass each other fully within the rules, and you can't take action against them.

It's also exacerbated by the fact that the system learns from the community. So it can actually change its behavior based on community trends and what the community does/doesn't want, making it pretty much impossible to give a 100% accurate list of what would or wouldn't get you punished at any given time.

Really, though, if you follow a few simple rules you will never run into a problem:

  • Don't insult others or use hate speech.
  • Don't chastise others for their gameplay or mistakes or blame them for what you perceive as errors. A bit of constructive critique is okay, provided you're respectful about it.
  • Use /mute if someone is being a problem rather than engaging them.
  • Don't feel the need to alert everyone else when someone is being a problem in your eyes.

These are all pretty well implied by the Summoner's Code, and pretty much any misunderstanding stems from someone trying to do one of these things.

TheWizardM1 votes

Could you send me a link to said data, as I would love to see what they compared the system to ^^

And no, it's not an intrinsic part of behavioral systems. I'm a moderator on an ELL community myself, and as long as the system provides apt feedback, this shouldn't be an issue.

ModThe Djinn2 votes

{quoted}Could you send me a link to said data, as I would love to see what they compared the system to ^^

Sadly I cannot, as I'm not a Riot employee, nor do I think they'd release all their experimental data from over the years.

And no, it's not an intrinsic part of behavioral systems. I'm a moderator on an ELL community myself, and as long as the system provides apt feedback, this shouldn't be an issue.

And you haven't encountered people attempting to skirt the rules as closely as possible while claiming immunity? I'm not doubting that, but I am legitimately baffled.

TheWizardM1 votes

Then why reference said data in the first place?

I have, but claiming immunity =/= being immune, and with a proper feedback system they figured that out fast enough.

TheWizardM1 votes

After looking on the internet a bit I managed to find the graphs, and they only compared the new system to the old one, which was bad to begin with.

TheWizardM1 votes

Not to mention it focusses on the impact of loading screen tips and the speed of the system - not the punishments themselves.

Kei1431 votes

{quoted}

Source? The lowest end punishment is a 10-game chat restrict (As far as I can tell, I haven't seen Riot release anythign about punishments, though)

https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/207489286-Instant-Feedback-System-FAQ-

Hi2u

TheWizardM1 votes

Tyvm, and it looks like I was correct.

Zombie Gerbil7 votes

The system itself is fine. The reason why it's not all that understood is due to players who are trying to bend the rules or find the loophole without getting a penalty. The majority of toxic players on the internet dislike the fact that they can't understand the system, because they don't want to give up the freedom of insulting players and saying what they want without facing the consequences. Because they're so used to the safeguard the internet itself provides for them. The system is best at being vague and being unknown for the benefit for the community who doesn't play this game insulting every single member of the player base.

You also have to realize how many players play this game. The reason why the number of punishments is so high is that we're getting a lot of players every day who disregards the Terms of Use they agreed to before they download the game. They see other players insulting them and saying what they want, and then they believe they can say or do the same thing. And since riot doesn't really always let players know when other players are penalized, they tend to believe they're in the safe too.

Just don't be an asshole. You're either part of the game or part of the problem. Be part of the game and you have nothing to worry about.

TheWizardM1 votes

Governments make their laws public, too! Just imagine what would happen if they didnt!

Like I said in my post, being an asshole is indeed a problem, but that doesn't mean every player automatically assumes it is. The current system makes it unclear what is punishable.

Also, I never said anything about making the rules more visible. I only said things about making it more visisble when you are breaking them.

Zombie Gerbil3 votes

What the government does and a video game company does is far two different things.

Riot is quite clear on their rules too. It's quite simple to understand. Don't be an asshole. You don't need to understand any more than that. You don't need to understand what boundary of what words you can or cannot say. You're responsible for your own actions. Like you are in your everyday life. Just because you're on the internet or on a MMO video game doesn't mean you can be any less responsible.

Terms of Use is not in a dead language spoken with metaphors. Don't flame, insult, or use any offensive slurs in any situation. Do not harass your teammates. Do not use any cheat programs. To not play at player's expense for your own entertainment. Meaning, don't ruin other players game for your enjoyment. Etc.

Not that complex.

TheWizardM1 votes

It's quite vague still. What counts as flame? When is something insulting? Does context matter? Where is the line between poking fun and herassing?

Yes, people are responsible for their own actions, but the current system doesn't give people the room they need to take that responsibility.

Zombie Gerbil5 votes

Really? Do you not even know what you'd say be considered as an insult or you know what you're saying with ill intent? The boundaries are called with common sense. Don't say something to someone you wouldn't say to an absolute stranger in public. Anything with ill intent that is deemed offensive, including wishing self-harmful or harmful in general, threatening, abusive, inflammatory, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, sexually explicit, or racially, ethically, or anything that is met with ill intent and meant to offend the players.

You'd have to be extremely ignorant not to know what line not to cross. Everyone knows the difference between having fun and being offensive. And the system DOES give them a room with 4 warnings, Terms of Use, a board about behaviors, and the Summoner's Code. They'd have to absolutely not care or take anything into consideration to be ignorant enough not to know that their actions are deemed offensive.

TheWizardM1 votes

I wouldn't say any English words to a stranger in public, as I'm not an English native. Not everyone knows what are considered swears in English. For instance, I only found out what kys means today (never used the word, but still).

If someone doesn't know what certain words even mean (for instance, kys is so common that I though it was like kek- a word that adds no real meaning to a sentence) how can you expect them to know its crosisng a line? Moreover, what is considered offensive varies wildly by culture. Some cultures may find discriminatory comments absolutely fine, others have words that are so simialr to English slurs that their speakers may mistake these slurs as meaning the same thing (Like the Dutch word "Neger", which does refer to people with a dark complexion, but is no considered offensive).

Zombie Gerbil1 votes

Did I say it depends if its English? Did I mention language at all? Did I mention it depends on what culture you're in or what race you are? No. There are no special privileges. To any race, culture, sex, or anything. I don't care where you're from or what language is what. Punishment is meant for ill intent. There's no complexity in that.

We're speaking in English because that's the board's main language and you're on NA board. But I never once mention anything that you'd say in any language but speaking to them IN GENERAL. As a human being. As I said before, you can go to the board and learn what some things are deemed offensive. "KYS" is a common thing that is mentioned on here and there's only ONE way of saying it because it was originated for one thing anyway. Slurs are slurs. Systems understand what slurs are offensive and what are not.

You agreed to follow the rules before you downloaded the game. It's not the system's fault that you decide not to research what is right from wrong and it's not the system's fault that a player decides not to lack the common sense to have any kind of human decency. You're trying to find ways around everything I say to try and convince me that the system is flawed, but no matter what you try to conclude with, no matter what, it's not the system, it's the players. Period.

TheWizardM1 votes

I was talking about speaking in English...

"it's not the system, it's the players. Period." - so if a country made it legal to put toxic substances in food you can't blame them if people die as a result? After all, the people should look at the label on the back, no? It's not like people don't all know what all the toxic substances are.

Zombie Gerbil1 votes

And I am talking about IN GENERAL. Anything met with ill intent, anything that players say with toxicity or negativity consistently are met penalty. Regardless of what language, race, ethnicity, culture, or sex you are. There no special privileges for the offenders. What a country does and what a video game company does are two different legal boundaries.

But if we're going to use that analogy, then we'll use an example. It is a person's responsibility to look at the back of a product for their health. Let's say a person has an extreme allergy to a certain substance, and they chose not to review the product ingredient. It is a law to ensure that the consumer has full knowledge of what they're consuming. BUT THE INGREDIENT IS ON THE BACK. Once again, it's the consumer's responsibility to review those ingredients. If they don't and consume it anyway, then they get punished due to their own ignorance.

Relating to that to the game. Before you even DOWNLOADED the game, they have you the Terms of Use to review before you can move to the next page. Once agreed to it, you are bound to follow that policy. Everything I've mentioned that you should follow is also mentioned in the Terms of Use. THE TERMS OF USE IS LINKED AND SUMMONER'S CODE IS LINKED TO THAT AGREEMENT. It is the player's responsibility to review the policy. If they don't and be toxic anyway, then they'll be punished due to their own ignorance.

Again, ends with the person. Not the system. You're never going to find a way to blame the system for a player's attitude and choice of words.

TheWizardM1 votes

So am I...? I'm saying that it may ne hard for people to know what is considered toxic, and the game can't exactly know someone's intent.

And what if they don't know they're allergic? Or that there even exists such a thing as allergies? It's the government's job to make sure people are aware of what harms them and others.

It is, but it it's not their responsibility to make sure people understand what the rules mean, not just what they are. Not everyone is fluent in English, after all.

again, it ends with both. The people need to do their best to follow the rules, and the system should give them the room and feedback to do so.

Zombie Gerbil1 votes

Again, I don't care what language this is about. Doesn't matter.

If the person doesn't know they're allergic, that's their own damn fault. Again ends with the person.

No, it's not Riot's responsibility to make sure they understand the rules. That is the players own responsibility. If they lack empathy or self-control, then that's the player's fault. If a player doesn't understand the right from wrong in our everyday life and doesn't know the difference between what is an insult or what's not, then that's the player's damn fault. AGAIN ENDS WITH THE PERSON. Regardless, nothing you can say will EVER CHANGE THAT.

Therefore, ends with the person. Not the system. No matter what, it will always end with the person. Now you have to comes to terms with it. That's why I'm saying you're wrong, that's why the community saying you're wrong.

Due to your ignorance, we're done discussing this because you have your own problems of understanding anything. But that is YOUR own responsibility, because this does, after all, ENDS as a person. The system isn't responsible for ANYONE's lack of knowledge of understanding of what is right and wrong.

** I already repeated myself too many times and proved you wrong on all of them by explaining it.** Not my fault you or other players don't review the rules. Take responsibility for your own actions and awareness. The system isn't responsible that. The system isn't your parent and nor am I.

TheWizardM1 votes

Neither do I...? The summoner code is in English though....

If the person doesn't know what allergies are, there's clearly something wrong with their education. Again, ends with the government.

It's not the players responsibility to perfectly know whatever language is commonly spoken in a server. That is plain unrealistic. Humans are, y'know, humans, not dictionaries.

Yes, it does. I'm not going to repeat my arguments since clearly you won't even bother reading them.

Jamaree2 votes

It is vague on purpose, it has to be, the moment they let down set rules people will go out of their way to be destructive as possible while staying within the rules. Just don’t be a dick and you are fine.

We already have a three strikes system, that is why the punishment slowly ramps up to permanent ban rather then start there.

They won’t make it scale because hen players will just keep doing that low tier stuff still being toxic but never being truly punished. Like let’s say I stole from a store and every time I got punished my only punishment was an hour in the mall security room and that was it, why would I stop stealing?

Then toxic players are just going to dance on that line of being toxic then.

Or people could stop flaming each other, that works too.

KZ Engel2 votes

"here's why" threads are just as cringe-inducing as "let's talk about" threads jesus christ

TheWizardM1 votes

Can you really blame me for putting a clickbaity title?

KZ Engel1 votes

no idea. for about 99% of my comments, i don't read more than 20 words of the body before commenting

i cant make myself care more man

AeroWaffle2 votes

At the end of the day some people will refuse to see their own behavior as the problem. The system only gives you your chat logs when you're punished, making it clear that only your chat logs matter. You have support and these boards to post your logs so that you can get answers from other players. But none of that can force a player to recognize themselves as the problem.

Removing the punishment for repeat offenders comes with the problem that some jerks will just constantly act like a jerk, knowing that they'll have no more than a chat restriction. If you have no intention of behaving it's time to harsher punishments because obviously the previous ones wasn't a clear enough message for the player.

If you make a visible point system it starts giving trolls the power to behave poorly in ways that the system didn't detect. You also encourage the idea that acting like a jerk is okay so long as you're low on the point value. People will see that they're low and decide that they're safe to behave like an asshole for a game.

TheWizardM1 votes

The problem is though, is that those chat logs aren't the only thing that matter. Repetition matters, too, and chat logs don't show that.

I never said anything about removing punishment for repeat offenders?

I also mentioned this in my post, and like I said in my post, trolls finding small loopholes (that, by the way, can be plugged) is significantly better than people breaking the rules unintentionally. I do not encourage the idea that that is okay? I don't see how that relates to my post at all? Keep in mind that the list at the bottom are examples, not solutions!

AeroWaffle2 votes

The problem is though, is that those chat logs aren't the only thing that matter. Repetition matters, too, and chat logs don't show that.

I haven't met a behavioral punishment system that doesn't punish more harshly based on how often you misbehave. Is this really something that needs to be pointed out?

I never said anything about removing punishment for repeat offenders?

"Scalable punishment system (where the punishment scales with severity, not with wheter you got punished before)"

I also mentioned this in my post, and like I said in my post, trolls finding small loopholes (that, by the way, can be plugged) is significantly better than people breaking the rules unintentionally. I do not encourage the idea that that is okay? I don't see how that relates to my post at all? Keep in mind that the list at the bottom are examples, not solutions!

You can't accidentally behave poorly in chat. You're in control of what you type and you don't accidentally type with the purpose of insulting or belittling someone else. The only confusion is such people believe they were justified in such behavior.

TheWizardM1 votes

I'm not talking about repeat punishment. I'm talking about repear offenses before the first punishment

That quote is from the examples section of my post, not the rant section. ALso, with that part in between brackets I don't mean that it specifcally shouldnt scale with repeat punishment, but that it shouldnt specifically scale with repeat punishments.

True, but you can behave poorly and not realize that it is against the rules. Imagine if a country kept their laws private and someone raped someone else. Can you really blame them if they didn't know rape was against the law?

Kei1431 votes

If Riot were to add visibility to the system that shows the toxicity score that increases and decays, I would want the syatem to show decay to be super slow and the increase to be accelerated for the toxics that try to game the system. As in the ones that are toxic, then don't say anything for a bunch of games and then go back to toxic again once the decay has settled.

But that's just a change in the mathematical formula. The visibility part is the thing of main concern, and it needs to be clear that Riot doesn't take it easy on people that try to game the system.

TheWizardM1 votes

I got this strange feeling very few people read the entirety of my post.

Umbral Regent1 votes

It is vague. It is vague as to why you're getting punished, it doesn't provide a warning when you break the rules in a way that is not severe enough for a punishment.

I don't think it's vague at all about why a player gets punished. It shows the chat log(s) that resulted in the punishment, the only way it could be seen as vague is if the player themselves couldn't piece together the problem or look at their chat critically.

98% of the time, the why of a punishment is abundantly clear. Whether it comes down to attitude throughout a match or direct statements to belittle or attack another player, the IFS provides ample reason for the punishments it delivers.

Granted, one could argue that it could be much clearer about the punishments (highlighting strings of text that lend themselves to the punishment), but all said, it can't be said that the IFS is vague. It's more that people have a hard time understanding what they're doing wrong.

(human nature is a hell of a thing.)

As for warnings - I'm not sure where I stand on that. It could certainly benefit players to know when their behavior is starting to teeter into punishment territory, but at the same time, warnings would have to be delivered pretty much exactly like punishments are - showing recent chat logs to indicate misbehavior.

Otherwise, the warnings themselves would be considered "vague", and disregarded because there's no indication that they're actually misbehaving. And if the warnings were delivered as chat logs, that would inevitably cause confusion as well, as inevitably, there will be people misconstruing the warnings as actual punishments.

At the end of the day, players should be expected to know what's within acceptable bounds. I don't think there's really a place for warnings when there's a standard of sportsmanship in play.


Some players will think "hey, I got punished, but he said some of the same stuff, but he didn't!" and conclude that it's random.

I've never seen someone conclude that the IFS is random due to them getting punished for chat similar to another player. I've seen people argue that it's "Rito favoritism/double-standards" etc., or trying to rationalize that "they should be punished if I got punished" (ignoring the fact that the players very likely already have been punished), and they try to deflect their punishment as system bias more than actual error on their part.

Three strike system (or any other number). In a three strike system, players won't feel cheated when they get their first warning, and they get another chance afterwards in case they didn't fully udnerstand what triggered the first warning.

If people have a hard time understanding what they did wrong when they get punished for it, how exactly are they expected to understand the issue when they're not punished, when they're given chance after chance after chance, to look over their chat and see what's getting them punished warned in the first place?

Scalable punishment system (where the punishment scales with severity, not with wheter you got punished before). Even if when you get punished might feel random, the severity will not. Over time players will conclude that yes, being more toxic does result in worse punishments, which in turn makes them less likely to be toxic in the future.

The issue with this is that it reads as much, much more lenient to repeat offenders than the current system. If someone's consistently negative, but only getting minor punishments, I doubt it'd register that being more toxic will get them worse punishments - because they're only warranting the lower tier of punishment, and have no reason to expect anything more severe.

And, where do you draw the line with this? Three low-tier CR's, then start giving higher punishments? Eventually, the tolerance for "lighter" negativity will just decrease, and we'll be left with a drawn-out version of the current IFS. At that point - what is the point of punishments scaling based on severity? You either have a limit on infractions, or you have people who are perpetually suffering lighter punishments with no reason to improve and no reason to expect things to get worse.

Visible point system. In this system, each infraction gives a set amount of points, rather than a game as a whole causing a punishment, reaching a set amount of points does. This makes it easier for players to figure out what not to do, and removes any feeling of randomness.

While this isn't a thing yet as far as I know, I do know that someone (I think it was Kei143? One of the PB regulars, anyway. 90% sure it's Kei.) explains the IFS as being a point-system in nature. Which, it does make sense - continuous lighter infractions will build up points to a cap and result in a punishment, and certain behaviors (zero tolerance) rack up points over the cap and result in escalations, etc.

The issue, though, with a point system (or general details of how punishments are delivered) being visible is that people will abuse that information to try and game the system and avoid punishment, rather than actually try to follow the rules and not have to dance around punishable behavior or play a game of meters and point values.

TheWizardM1 votes

That's exactly what I meant. You can tell people they can't be negative in chat all you want, but if they don't know what that means it doesn't help anyone.

I've seen people conclude that, though the rules aren't random, their enforcement is, which is what I meant with this section.

This was an example. Keep in mind that the examples are not proposals. to answer your question; it gives people more to work with.

this should still scale with repeat punishments, just not specifically with reprtition that accours before the punishment.

I already adressed this issue in my post (though not in detail). People could only abuse this system up untill they're just below the cap of getting punished. After that it's no longer possible to game it, as it would result in a punishment.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

The system isn't consistent with telling us when a player we report gets punished. We often have no way of knowing what Riot did with them. So comparing oneself to the other player is pointless and silly. It's not random if they get punished, it's only random if you are told that they get punished.

We aren't entitled to know what happens to the player we reported. Riot doesn't owe it to us to tell us exactly what happens to them. Not only would that violate player privacy, it would be pointless anyways because we should only try to change our own in-game behavior, not the in-game behavior of others.

TheWizardM1 votes

I don;t see what this has to do with my post?

Kei1431 votes

It's part of the puzzle that makes people feel that the system is inconsistent.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

What Kei said. And you said it yourself, people think the system punishes them but not the player they were fighting with who did equally bad things. In reality it's not necessarily true that they weren't punished somehow. You just can't know for sure.

TheWizardM1 votes

You can now for sure within your own social circles.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

That is a very specific and unusual set of circumstances. It cannot be used to support the idea that you would know every time anybody got punished.

And even within the circles it's not for certain, because the player may get a chat restriction and lie to you about it, or they might be at a different stage of their record being marked than you might be.

TheWizardM1 votes

I'm still not sure what exactly that has to do with my post. You can't exactly stop people from comparing themselves to others.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Of course you can't stop them, but you can point out how silly and irrelevant such comparisons are.

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