A real discussion about Behavior and Reform

IW Autofill··3 votes·1,057 views

I am a league player of a certain number of years, I have seen the system in various states and I must say without a doubt that there is something inherently backwards about the league of legends instant feedback system. No this is not a rant on how I got X and think it should be Y, nor is it a call for the tribunal. What you read below are my observations off of having attempted to be restricted, banned, and analyzing the system in depth across a multitude of accounts. Before I begin. I Deserved Every Single punishment I received my problem so much is not with the fact that the behavior is being punished but HOW it is being conducted. Lets begin.

Of course the first time someone is a little too toxic and gets a mysterious number of reports, they get.. a warning! Cue dramatic lights and effects, no but seriously I understand the attempt here but this no better informs anyone of what they are doing than the summoners code does. The warning is a bland and almost insulting "Hey buddy we know you're not having a great time but you gotta be an okay dude alright homeslice?" It feels disjointed and disconnected from the actual game. You get it after game and viola problem solved right? Well no, most people who get a warning go on to get a restriction, sometimes in the next game.

So what can we do? Well for one, why not highlight some of the chat the player used that is deemed as offensive. Now I hear you typing "Well you should know what is and isn't okay to say!" And that would be right if we all shared the same values and morals but we don't for example I grew up in a household where Hell was an appropriate word to describe frustration or exasperation or exaggeration. Not specifically go to hell but "Hell yea!" that kind of thing. Meanwhile my cousins were raised in a house where the word HELL (all caps) was about as bad as any of the other famous four letter words. My point is people of different age, gender, and even ethnicity consider different things in different ways. IF there is a universal standard for league, be more open, enlighten the player don't threaten them. There is a handy list in the support page of 'acceptable' terms and dialogue somewhere in the league of legends website but that is putting a lot of onus on the player to do research for what should be a simple straight forward game.

Secondly, Context, people do not wake up and go "I am going to tell someone to kill themselves over a video game!" no, that is a gradual process that a new player undergoes which I like to call Legalizing. The first step of Legalizing is dealing with a league player, preferably a jaded one. The naive new player sees mister senpai and sees that senpai calls his team mates trash and horrible. Senpai is the role model in this case so he is teaching a new generation or lets face it at this rate SEASON of player that its okay to insult your team mates. What little johny new to league doesn't know is senpai is running a premade and he's insulting his friends. Of course HOW COULD HE!? premades are not disclosed with any kind of information provided from the client. So another suggestion is tell a person "you are joining a premade, some of the terms of the summoners code may not apply with them but you are still punishable under the instantfeedback system."

Moving on, after the warning comes the first actual punishment, a restriction I've seen anything from 1 to 10 games for a first time with anything from 1-3 games worth of reports, its a little chaotic. Now here is where a person goes from 'mislead' to completely abhorrent. As one of the joys of having been chat restricted you are graciously treated to a script of everything YOU and only YOU said in the games that earned the reports. Not once, Not twice, Not even five times. However many times between the start of the punishment and the required number of games it takes EVERY SINGLE LOG IN. This does not work, in fact it fails majorly in two very simple ways. One showing someone their mistake repeatedly does not educate them on the mistake it makes them HATE the people that reported them and see themselves has suffering unduly, and secondly there again is no indication of exactly WHAT was termed offensive. If you need to keep saying "Naughty boy" at least tell the punished player what they said that was wrong, sometimes its obvious "KYS" ect, sometimes its not so obvious "Man lux that ult was so bad that I hear it got elected as president" Trump jokes, topical! both are equally valid in that report screen and that's where the confusion comes in.

A much healthier alternative to this chat restriction is a simple identification system on a players account Green, Blue, Red. Green accounts can freely use all chat and team chat, Blue accounts can only use team chat, Red accounts can not use chat at all and can not read chat at all either. This instead of hampering a player and promoting worse play "I meant to say Top TP but I ran out of chats in the first 10 minutes saying GLHF and explaining how I'm chat restricted" and filters players by nature, its a sliding scale that does not encourage further toxicity because it allows players to participate but not by requirement. Let me tell you those ten games are ROUGH on chat restriction you feel like you're playing with the enemy given a handicap and it makes you very upset.

After restriction we have SUSPENSION! congratulations you are among the top 1% of league summoners so toxic you need to be removed from the game!.. but do you really? Suspension is for lack of a better word, the point of no return. This is where a league player either learns one of three lessons. "Golly gee I better what what I say, do, and how I play or I might lose my account"/"Oh, I really didn't think I was that bad, maybe I just shouldn't say anything that way I can't be reported"/" Screw this game, They think I'm toxic I'LL SHOW THEM TOXIC!" or the optional fourth ".. just forget it, I'm done" League especially does not want option 4. So with lesson 1 being the optimal ending where do you really think things end up I'd say with no hard numbers But riot doesn't have them either that most players fall into 2 or 3. I've seen so many people straight terrified of talking in chat, and the only time they do is when their frustration boils over to the brink. SO what is a better system? Believe it or not I don't think people should be banned, I think that people who have surpassed a certain threshold should be restricted from anything but Coop VS AI until they earn enough honors by their team mates. WAIT, let me explain.

When someone is banned not only do they get the frustration of not being able to play, they get to stare at what got them banned every time they log. SO what does any sane person do!? THEY MAKE AN ALT! or smurf. Yes the people you so proudly banned are not gone, they simply start back up and continue their ways however now bitter at losing their account for X period of time and made to play Coop VS AI anyway! Let me put it like this I have never seen someone truly toxic in Coop VS AI. People are communative they chat and compliment each other and generally have a decent amount of fun playing around. YES there are outliers and I'll get to those when I reach Perma status because these are future permas, anyone toxic in ai will eventually be banned trust me. Now the mandatory AI playing works on multiple levels. First playing bots makes you feel good, you win alot, you get this illusion that you are really good. Second requiring honor requires that they DO actually change their behavior at least temporarily enough to get unrestricted. Lastly it doesn't contaminate your new player base. Let me tell you, the climb from 1-30 is both easy and impossible at the same time. Trolls, Salty [plat] mains and smurfs, OH MY GOD the smurfing going on between 3-30. It is devastating how badly you can lose a game to some smurfs and what does this do? It triggers your nuclear teemo shroom who just got banned, which trickles down onto johny new at league because senpai sure is being toxic. They have no clue this is a toxic player who's been punished all they see is a player better than them acting that way and it sticks.

And finally the big guy, the ultimate punishment the Perma. And I gotta say that I'm okay with Permas there are points where people just will not co operate and at the cost of a single customer you must remove them. I think the perma is carried out waaaay too dramatically, giving the same text box and big fanfare like someone being given the pennant stare. I think perma's should simply be, "Your account has been deleted due to repeated levels of toxic behavior on this account, the name has been released and your email unregistered , have a nice day." Simple succinct and it does more than leaving the account accessible but not playable. How many names are locked behind perma'd accounts that new players would love to have, I again have no numbers but its got to be high. But focus on the wording "Your account has been deleted, and your email unregistered" Its a clear, Get out we don't want you. NOW that player may make a smurf, since riot does nothing to stop this behavior but, now they know the reality that if they don't behave they will be evicted.

There is one , very small niggling thing, the hexatech crafting system and the instanfeedback system SHOULD NOT BE LINKED. Oh my lord what were you thinking. "Here's free stuff for playing!" "Oh wait you got restricted, so even though you played well, didn't flame, carried your team and got an S!.. No chest or keys for you, until you 'reform'" If ever there was a counter intuitive system in place. You are actively punishing people for playing well because they might of gotten a chat restriction for 1 game a week prior. This has got to be addressed from my research it only inspires toxicity and the feelings of hopelessness that if i ever get punished I might as well just roll a smurf because it will be faster to level to 30 than fix this. Riot seriously, unlink the hextech crafting from the feedback system you're only hurting people who truly want to improve and reform.

Well those are my ideas, please respond with any of your own or riddle my little plan full of holes, either way

GL and have fun on the rift summoners!

23 Comments

LordofEntropy2 votes

A lot of stuff in there. But one thing that stands out, you seem to place blame on the different punishments like chat restrictions, suspensions, and loss of hextech crafting for inspiring toxicity. People who get "inspired" to act inappropriately by the punishments for their previous inappropriate behavior are a lost cause and should be quickly moved through the punishment tiers until they either learn (unlikely) or give up and find something else to do.

IW Autofill1 votes

So you'd throw the baby out with the bathwater. Excuse for saying but that sounds a lot like white supremacy to me. "Only people who are good enough to play should be given the chance and only those who are as good as them the SUPREME MASTER PLAYER RACE should be allowed access." My system proposes a fair and unilaterally just system for all players to enjoy league, maybe you're just a bad trash talker but you're a perfectly fine person. A blue chat restriction might just save you from a ban by going too far with the enemy team. League is incredibly ambiguous with its terms and acceptable speech some people don't know and would otherwise reform if given proper time and incentive. Also, human psychology is very clear that negative reaction promotes negative behavior, the same way you shouldn't scold a child when they mess up for the first time, you should be understanding and accepting of the mistake but willing to educate a better course, immediate punishment can result in rebellious and disruptive thoughts in the minds of youth and remember a lot of league players are young, or at least mentally so.

ModUlanopo2 votes

Let me tell you those ten games are ROUGH on chat restriction you feel like you're playing with the enemy given a handicap and it makes you very upset.

That's the point. Chat restrictions are intended to make you change your behavior.

IW Autofill1 votes

You have a point but, the implementation is flawed, what I find this does is make people more toxic during those ten games which leads to a suspension or worse more restricted games, or it cripples their ability to communicate vital information and causes the entire team to lose due to having one mute player, or and this is the absolute worst. It tells them just don't talk and you'll be safe which even that isn't true. There has to be a better way.

ModUlanopo1 votes

Anecdotes are not data.

IW Autofill1 votes

That's just the thing, there is no data for either side, I can no more prove that chat restrictions make people more toxic than league can less. Because the banned just make new accounts nothing is learned, all they do is go pollute lower level games which are unspoken rule all smurfs now.

I want league to release numbers proving me wrong, they just haven't they give vague statistics like 5%. Is that of the entire player base, of a specific region, but I play a lot of lowbie games and the general consensus is "I play bots to get to pvp" "I play PVP to get to 30 because arams are bot games except peak hours or a threshold of levels" "I play blind until 10" "I play draft until ranked" "I play ranked until challenger lol" but between blind and draft all it is is people complaining about having to smurf because they got banned. In my experience, bold print. I may be a small sample but that is the only data I have. We can all agree that toxicity is still a problem in league and instantfeedback is not completely working though

Morality Coach1 votes

They do have data that most people reform after the first 10 game chat suspension.

LordofEntropy1 votes

You are going to compare a tiered punishment system in a video game to white supremacy?

And no it's not "only people who are good enough" should play. It's people who can behave, act appropriately, exhibit a modicum of self-control, and play nice with others. Failing that, there are numerous opportunities to reform and adjust their behavior via tiered punishments before it reaches you can't play anymore.

Being young isn't an excuse, and if that's their reason, it's better for them to start learning in a video game, rather than real life, that acting inappropriately towards others does have consequences.

IW Autofill1 votes

Yeah I am, considering you're showing this intolerance of anyone born with the ability to make mistakes, all before the first punishment things are fine league is an inherently frustrating game. But after the first punishment on the current system its a downward spiral. What you are describing is this utopia where behavior is unlearned in the first or second time, its not an inherent personality trait that isn't punished in the outside world. To understand the dissonance that creates you need to have some empathy. I'm not saying allow people to do whatever they want without consequences I'm saying make them better understand what and why. The current system does neither and just presents mass data as evidence. It doesn't even EDUCATE the player as to what they did that was toxic or unacceptable. That's like starting a job where the word Guestimate is terms for termination and its never explained to you, you just subtly notice no one in the office uses guestimate.

Also the threshold of time between tiers of reports can be literal minutes depending on the severity of the player, one account I ranted and raged for ten games straight, I got a restriction played one game where I said nothing and when it was over I was upgraded to a ban. The system is totally chaotic from a users perspective.

EvilDustMan2 votes

[{quoted}](name=IW Autofill,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=B6Uis2NZ,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-12-14T22:25:50.809+0000)

Yeah I am, considering you're showing this intolerance of anyone born with the ability to make mistakes, all before the first punishment things are fine league is an inherently frustrating game. But after the first punishment on the current system its a downward spiral. What you are describing is this utopia where behavior is unlearned in the first or second time, its not an inherent personality trait that isn't punished in the outside world. To understand the dissonance that creates you need to have some empathy. I'm not saying allow people to do whatever they want without consequences I'm saying make them better understand what and why. The current system does neither and just presents mass data as evidence. It doesn't even EDUCATE the player as to what they did that was toxic or unacceptable. That's like starting a job where the word Guestimate is terms for termination and its never explained to you, you just subtly notice no one in the office uses guestimate.

5% of players get chat restricted, .006% get permabanned. Vast majority gets by, some people get a punishment, almost the entire playerbase gets by without being toxic enough to get permanently banned.

IW Autofill1 votes

I know for a fact that number isn't true and even if it is, think about what those numbers actually mean. 5% and .006% of nearly a few million

If you play blind pick pre 30's you'd see those players didn't go anywhere they're still around and angrier and even more toxic because of the experience.

How would you like it if you had an accident and your insurance company dropped you entirely?

"But most people drive without an issue" The exception isn't the normal it should stand as the exception. IF you are a good player and haven't ever gotten restricted or you reformed, good for you but the instant feedback system doesn't exist for you it exists for consistently toxic or people becoming toxic lets stop holding them to our golden standards and consider for a second what will fix the toxic problem in league, not demonize it.

EvilDustMan1 votes

[{quoted}](name=IW Autofill,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=B6Uis2NZ,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-14T22:42:13.875+0000)

I know for a fact that number isn't true and even if it is, think about what those numbers actually mean. 5% and .006% of nearly a few million

If you play blind pick pre 30's you'd see those players didn't go anywhere they're still around and angrier and even more toxic because of the experience.

How would you like it if you had an accident and your insurance company dropped you entirely?

"But most people drive without an issue" The exception isn't the normal it should stand as the exception. IF you are a good player and haven't ever gotten restricted or you reformed, good for you but the instant feedback system doesn't exist for you it exists for consistently toxic or people becoming toxic lets stop holding them to our golden standards and consider for a second what will fix the toxic problem in league, not demonize it.

Fact! Source please.

IW Autofill1 votes

I'm basing my facts on the amount of games I have played where people explicitly told me they were smurfing because they were banned or we lost because we were fighting a team of smurfs. Can I prove any of it, no, I can only say on conjecture, if you want to site numbers from riot that are not "We said they are so they are" please link them here, I'd love to be wrong and admit this system is working but from my experience its not, its too easy to circumvent. And I know 5 and .006 aren't realistic because they're odd numbers, and they don't ever change, if people act more toxic the notification doesn't go to 6% so its a static number not a dynamic one.

EvilDustMan1 votes

[{quoted}](name=IW Autofill,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=B6Uis2NZ,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-15T03:14:08.906+0000)

I'm basing my facts on the amount of games I have played where people explicitly told me they were smurfing because they were banned or we lost because we were fighting a team of smurfs. Can I prove any of it, no, I can only say on conjecture, if you want to site numbers from riot that are not "We said they are so they are" please link them here, I'd love to be wrong and admit this system is working but from my experience its not, its too easy to circumvent. And I know 5 and .006 aren't realistic because they're odd numbers, and they don't ever change, if people act more toxic the notification doesn't go to 6% so its a static number not a dynamic one.

Well, you are asking me to take ancedotal and biased evidence from 'Rando From The Internet' vs Riot's statistics.

IW Autofill1 votes

What proof has riot proven on their statistics and I'm not asking you to take anything just consider an alternative way.

LordofEntropy1 votes

White supremacy has nothing to do with making mistakes, it's purely about these people are lesser/these are greater due to things completely unchangable, i.e. what race you were born. League's tiered punishment system targets something completely under the control of the individual, their behavior. Nothing is assumed from the get go(that is noone is being punished just for existing in game), until inappropriate behavior occurs and is reported, then the system reacts. Do you see why it's a very poor and incorrect comparision?

As far as tolerating mistakes, the tiered punishment system does just that: there are warnings, escalating chat bans, suspensions, which are all returnable from (this is demonstrated by dropping in punishment tiers by playing without misbehaving). Additionally Riot sends the offending chat logs showing what was unacceptable. Part of accepting and tolerating the mistakes of others, it that they learn from said mistakes. It's a two-way street. It's fair to expect others to tolerate making a mistake. It's not fair to keep repeating that same mistake and expect continued tolerance; especially when the mistake is completely under your control, you control your behavior. If one continues making the same mistake over and over, and then starts blaming the resultant consequences of those repeated mistakes, instead of looking at themselves. Well, that person isn't learning and needs to go home until they can figure out the problem is themselves and not the system.

It's also possible that a mistake is so egregious, making it difficult for anyone to reasonably either tolerate nor expect toleration. If one decides to go off in a game with something like "kill urself f#$#$t n$#$r hope ur mom gets cancer, die, I will killz u" yes, you will jump punishment tiers and deservedly so, because you shouldn't need a warning that being bigoted and aggressive in not acceptable in a public manner.

IW Autofill1 votes

At the core both ideas are elevating one select group of people and demoralizing another. Some people have mental and social issues and video games are regularly recommended to people with social issues to help them acclimatize to socializing with real people. Some of these people do not inherently know what is and isn't okay to say to other people, sometimes they can't control it. Now I am not making excuses for the toxic people but I am making a case that the way things are currently being done is wrong, the intention is good but for the people who are subject to this system it is nothing more than riot not understanding some issue.

I don't know why everyone is knee jerk reacting like I don't want people to be punished, I do, I want people who make mistakes to be reprimanded and educated of a better course, I am not against the punishment system. What I do not approve of is the implementation of their system and the flaws inherent with it.

Let me ask you a sincere question

Is it better to reform a toxic player or to ban them to prevent further damage?

True rehabilitation comes from the mutual understanding of both parties that something needs to change, not the authoritarian being strict.

LordofEntropy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=IW Autofill,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=B6Uis2NZ,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-12-15T18:03:42.254+0000)

Let me ask you a sincere question

Is it better to reform a toxic player or to ban them to prevent further damage?

Fair question, that I feel has been addressed, however I will do it directly:

The offending chat logs, along with escalating punishments ranging from the quite light, still able to play:

A. "You're saying bad things that people don't like so they reported you, we agree. You are limited to a handful of chats per game for your next 10 games. Here are the offending logs. Please don't continue saying such things."

Followed by, slightly more stern, can still play:

B. "Okay, during or after your previous 10 game restriction, you continued to say bad things, which we informed you of with the offending chat logs. You now have another 25 games of chat restriction. Please don't continue saying such things, choosing to do so will result in a suspension. PLEASE DON'T CONTINUE TO SAY BAD THINGS SUCH AS THOSE THE CHAT LOGS WE KEEP INCLUDING"

Followed by, decidedly more stern, can't play, but are able to continue after timeout:

C. "Okay, during or after those 25 games, you STILL continue to say bad things, here again are the logs of those bad things. We are temporarily suspending this account. You are welcome back after the suspension. BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP SAYING THOSE BAD THINGS or we will permanently ban this account in accordance with our very public rules that apply to everyone"

Are the attempts at reforming the toxic player. If that player cannot reform, or even manage to control themselves long enough to drop down a punishment tier by not doing something bad for a little while, then finally:

D. "Unfortunately after multiple chat restrictions and a 2 week suspension, you have still continued to say bad things, as included in these chat logs. As you were informed during your previous punishment, continuing to say these bad things would result in a permanent ban. We are now forced to do so."

At this point, yes it's better to ban them to prevent further damage to the games and enjoyment of others. There have been multiple attempts at educating and reforming the player by this step.

If they are unable to control themselves due to some mental/emotional issue as you put forth in an example, then a game such as League is probably not the right place for that person. Just as a bar is not the right place for an alcoholic, a casino isn't the right place for a gambling addict, or any other place/activity where someone is unable to control themselves in said environment. At some point the onus falls on the individual, regardless of their issues, the establishment can only be reasonably expected to do so much.

Yes, it would be nice to see that player reform and become a member of the community. In fact Riot has released a number of statistics that show that the number of people who escalate through the tiers, drops drastically, like an order of magnitude, at each tier. Showing that many players do in fact reform via the current system.

I'm not sure what else you expect Riot to do. Provide social workers, counselors, and case officers?

Sir Fuzzi1 votes

The problem with reform is that people either realize it and do it, or ask for the rules to be bent so that they can do it and still get away with their favourite thing.

I'm a pretty crass individual but I've never been socked by League's moderation. I think the fine line everyone seems to miss is located somewhere around 'directing ill intent toward people'-- if your language is just meant to hurt and not pointing out their mistake in at least a moderately constructive manner, then it's not likely to win you points. It's a simple dichotomy.

What's so poor about the current systems? The real flaw is that accounts are free and people can reroll, and no amount of punishment will change that.

IW Autofill1 votes

I'm inclined to agree with you on your points but again my issue is not that behavior is being punished but how, I do not disagree with the tier system I just think the implementation is poor.

Also from personal experience any mediocum of not praise can get you flagged as 'negative' simply asking "Can you please ward your brushes so I can see the lane roaming?" or "I'm planning to freeze the wave can you please not push it?" Can lead to a chat restriction. The automated system doesn't really care for small tier punishments just reports will achieve the outcome. I think the funniest thing I've ever seen was getting a legitimate report for a sarcastic "Well Played" To my own team mate.

SugarRayMoe1 votes

It doesnt bother me the "medium level" toxicity. I mean "noob" "l2p" "you're BAD!" "unistall" "go play vs AI noob" and all those things. Actually (maybe because I'm so used to it from playing another games, since you see it in every single online game) I think that they shouldnt even punish them further than some days of chat restriction each time someone does it too often (never a ban).

But really EXTREME toxicity really really triggers me. I mean, it's the only game I've seen so frequently things like commit suicide or all that cancer stuff. Extreme toxicity should be insta-permabanned. I mean, if you havent learnt no to wish other people's family to get cancer, you never will. You cannot pretend to use a video game to teach a more or less mature person a behavior that his parents didnt teach (were not able to teach) him when he was a child. Just delete those players from the game.

I strongly agree with the learnt behavior. I mean the "jhonny" and "senpai" story. It's so true, so, so true. You are the newcomer, you see that behavior and you learn it. Simple as that. Though, extreme toxicity is not as easy to learn, you need to learn it IRL. I see "Noob", I repeat "noob", but I will never be able to wish someone cancer or tell him to commit suicide or all that rape your mom stuff. Seriously, that kind of stuff is beyond the scope of what a video game can teach you, maybe you can feel yourself more free to unleash that behaviour in the videogame, but you have learnt it IRL, and you cannot unlearn it in a videogame.

SugarRayMoe1 votes

I would like to add to the johnny-senpai story a little thing.

Once the newcomer see that senpai is being extremly toxic vs him, he thinks that it is allowed, since senpai is playing the game (i.e. is not banned). The FIRST reaction is to backfire hard. I mean, he insults me, why shouldnt I? That happens because the banning system cannot (and never will be able to) ban people in the very same moment they are extreamly toxic, during the chat conversation. Hence, the newcomer perceives it like "normal" or "allowed" since he doesnt know anything about lol or its community, he has just arrived.

The very first thing that "johnny" should know when he begins to play is that toxic players are banned, no mercy, just banned. But it took me a long while until I realized about all the banning stuff.

The very first thing you see once you login should be a list of permabanned people. So that the very first thing that you realize once you start playing the game is that people get banned. Something like, "dont think that you can be toxic or that it's normal to be toxic". And a warning against fighting toxicity with toxicity, since it can get you banned. It would be a "kindly reminder" for those that are not newcomers too.

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