Allowing banning of declared champs is promoting toxic behavior.

Gives No Lux··2 votes·1,487 views

There is simply no legitimate reasoning to allow banning of a declared champion other than to troll or be toxic to the person that declared it.

While there may be times that you may want to ban a new or what you consider a 'troll' champion it is still toxic behavior on the part of the person banning.

Riot always says that you're only responsible for YOUR actions and retaliation is not an excuse so if there is an actual legitimate reason for allowing this in champ select then I would like to know what that is.

Edit: Added the example from below to original post.

If you declare a champ someone can ALWAYS ban it intentionally. For whatever reason. Now, in an environment such as solo queue where no single player has inherent priority over another other than role definition and pick order this means that the cumulative negative impact this will have will vastly outweigh any positives.

Since abstracts seem to be clouding the issue let's go with an example:

Player A wants to play Annie. Player B wants to ban Annie.

Either could be a random troll so over time that scenario is a wash. We'll take the most common suggested scenerio, Player A is last pick B is first.

Player A declares Annie. They have weighed whatever choices in their head and with the available information they decided to play Annie.

Player B has the exact same information available to them and in their mind they don't feel that having Annie available to last pick team mate is the right choice.

Given that it's solo queue and, statistically, being in the same rank range they are on equal standing. Neither has been granted any sort of team decision making, they are both two equals making opposing choices based on the same given information.

Now, 100% of the time if Player B decides to intentionally ban Annie it is because of one of two reasons only. Either they believe that they are superior to Player A and therefore their choice is correct above the considerations that Player B has weighed, or it is simply a malicious act.

Every single possible justification that Player B can give is equally available to Player A and yet Player B has the ability to override any decision making ability of Player A simply because they know better.

Player A has zero recourse other than to dodge. This setup is such that it ALWAYS rewards the mentality of 'I am good at this game and my teammates are idiots' and can only punish those that declare in good faith or have unpopular/non-meta picks.

Every single counter argument in this thread is predicated that you are Player B and that your decision to intentionally ban a teammates declared champ is ALWAYS right. Well, statistically that is impossible.

Over many iterations half the time, all things being equal, Banning would be the right choice, and half not banning is correct. Since Player A will NEVER have an opportunity to play Annie if she is banned then over time this will result in a net negative impact from JUST the decision alone, not to mention the effect on Player A's attitude going into the game.

Not one person has mentioned that their choice to intentionally ban another's champ could be the wrong choice and that is the crux of why I believe the current implementation can only continue to promote toxic behavior in select and statistically it can only get worse, never improve without external change.

73 Comments

Chermorg15 votes
  1. Champion is pick or ban and enemy has first pick

  2. Champion is pick or ban and your first pick doesn't own or is unwilling to trade

  3. You don't want to play with that champion on your team.

TrulyBland1 votes

Don't really agree on #3 here. Ultimately such things should be resolved more maturely within a team. Not only does that sort of behaviour create a really bad start for your team in terms of morale, it also encourages people to delay talking to the team until after bans if they want to run a less popular tactic, which is also not the best for team spirit.

I also doubt that this is truly an intended use of the feature, seeing as how you can only ban champions that the enemy team has. If banning a champion so your team can't pick it was an intended use of a ban, wouldn't it always be a possible choice?

That said, #1 and #2 are already reason enough to allow banning any champion that people want to ban.

Chermorg6 votes

Well, it could also be that they just don't want to play with that champion on the enemy team or in the game at all. I despise teams in which I have to play with a Zilean. They can always play another champion - but I can't ban it after they pick it if I don't want to play with it.

This is just an example - it's slightly rude, but the truth is they can play another champion and likely won't unless theirs is banned.

Built to Tylt3 votes

I feel like 'not wanting to play with a certain champion' is pretty weak reasoning. However, not wanting a certain person on your team to play a certain champion because they consistently feed with them is completely viable.

Chermorg5 votes

The point is that there's definitely more than one reason, and it's impossible to differentiate while in lobby, so it's impossible to just ban the bad reasons.

Gives No Lux1 votes

Yeah, there are many reasons, every one of them revolves around the fact that you are putting your own priorities over someone else's ability to make their own choice. That promotes toxic behavior.

ModUlanopo5 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am disappoint,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=B3Vv5MEh,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-24T02:10:08.653+0000)

Yeah, there are many reasons, every one of them revolves around the fact that you are putting your own priorities over someone else's ability to make their own choice. That promotes toxic behavior.

This is the problem with strict libertarianism, this notion that you have an absolute right of any sort. "I want it, so I should be allowed to have it" is pretty selfish on its own, more so when you refuse to listen to anyone's reasoning.

Here are some other reasons I might ban your pick:

  • It would imbalance the team towards one damage type.
  • It would make the team too squishy.
  • It's not a good pick for the lane you're going to be in.
  • It looks like a troll pick.

Not that any of the ones you have already been given are in any way invalid.

Gives No Lux1 votes

This is the problem with strict libertarianism, this notion that you have an absolute right of any sort. "I want it, so I should be allowed to have it" is pretty selfish on its own, more so when you refuse to listen to anyone's reasoning.

Please re-read your statement very carefully. I am suggesting that one person's declare/ban should both be of equal weight as any other person's declare/ban.

All of your 'valid' reasons for intentionally banning out another teammates declaration are you deciding that your choice is superior to theirs simply because you think it's true. Again, promoting toxic behavior even before the game starts.

ModUlanopo4 votes

I am suggesting that one person's declare/ban should both be of equal weight as any other person's declare/ban.

No, you're not. You're asserting that a declare always trumps a ban. You're also asserting that the reasons for a declare are always more valuable than the reasons for a ban.

That's not only bad logic, it's also a terrible way to run a community because you're stripping the agency from four players. If I see the guy who was infamous for playing Smite/"Support" Nunu in Champion Select, you can be absolutely certain I'm banning Nunu. I'm banning him so hard he won't show his face for three games past this one.

That's my right, same as anyone else who has a ban.

Sorin Alucard1 votes

{quoted}

No, you're not. You're asserting that a declare always trumps a ban. You're also asserting that the reasons for a declare are always more valuable than the reasons for a ban.

That's not only bad logic, it's also a terrible way to run a community because you're stripping the agency from four players. If I see the guy who was infamous for playing Smite/"Support" Nunu in Champion Select, you can be absolutely certain I'm banning Nunu. I'm banning him so hard he won't show his face for three games past this one.

That's my right, same as anyone else who has a ban.

Except the declaration system was created with the intent of letting your allies know what NOT to ban. Not to mention that there have been statements from Riot during new champ select's release where they clarified banning pick intent IS reportable. Under Negative Attitude to be specific. You can check their support page as well.

Yes, there are trolls and sometimes its pretty obvious what a troll pick is, BUT the RULES lean towards it being bad to make decisions about what other players should be playing.

Bottomline your "stripping agencies" statement is pretty silly since you're basically saying that other people have the right to tell other players what to do on a whim.

Has No Team3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sorin Alucard,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=B3Vv5MEh,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-24T05:14:23.806+0000)

Except the declaration system was created with the intent of letting your allies know what NOT to ban. Not to mention that there have been statements from Riot during new champ select's release where they clarified banning pick intent IS reportable. Under Negative Attitude to be specific. You can check their support page as well.

Yes, there are trolls and sometimes its pretty obvious what a troll pick is, BUT the RULES lean towards it being bad to make decisions about what other players should be playing.

Bottomline your "stripping agencies" statement is pretty silly since you're basically saying that other people have the right to tell other players what to do on a whim.

If it wasn't an intended way to use the mechanic it wouldn't be allowed for this long pure and simple. Riot would not leave in a way for trolls to exploit the intended system should they feel there is no reason to ban someone's intent. The ban system is just not that black and white. Should you try to communicate first ? Yeah you should always try to have a positive interaction but for times people won't listen or are dead set on something you believe you will lose LP for then Veto (ban).

ModUlanopo2 votes

Except the declaration system was created with the intent of letting your allies know what NOT to ban.

Nope. It's a form of communication, but it's not absolute. If that were the intent, people would be blocked from banning a declared champion.

Bottomline your "stripping agencies" statement is pretty silly since you're basically saying that other people have the right to tell other players what to do on a whim.

You ascribe motives based on your bias: "I feel this way, so the system should accommodate me." Other people feel differently. The system benefits them because it's better for the community.

Sorin Alucard1 votes

{quoted}

Nope. It's a form of communication, but it's not absolute. If that were the intent, people would be blocked from banning a declared champion.

You ascribe motives based on your bias: "I feel this way, so the system should accommodate me." Other people feel differently. The system benefits them because it's better for the community.

For your first point, evidence? Listing the lack of something isn't necessarily proof.

No i really wasn't arguing from purely a bias standpoint so please don't be asinine and put words in my mouth.

I am arguing from the standpoint of what I've seen and read before as well as previous discussions with support. As a moderator, if you're wrong then its a pretty big deal that you'd be advocating unsportsmanlike behavior. If you're right then no harm no foul.

I've filed another ticket asking for clarification on this specific topic. I will post the response when I receive it.

Gives No Lux1 votes

Your argument is circular. Right now not only do bans trump declare, but by the simple existence of the declare feature it opens champ select to additional negative impact.

If you declare a champ someone can ALWAYS ban it intentionally. For whatever reason. Now, in an environment such as solo queue where no single player has inherent priority over another other than role definition and pick order this means that the cumulative negative impact this will have will vastly outweigh any positives.

Since abstracts seem to be clouding the issue let's go with an example:

Player A wants to play Annie. Player B wants to ban Annie.

Either could be a random troll so over time that scenario is a wash. We'll take the most common suggested scenerio, Player A is last pick B is first.

Player A declares Annie. They have weighed whatever choices in their head and with the available information they decided to play Annie.

Player B has the exact same information available to them and in their mind they don't feel that having Annie available to last pick team mate is the right choice.

Given that it's solo queue and, statistically, being in the same rank range they are on equal standing. Neither has been granted any sort of team decision making, they are both two equals making opposing choices based on the same given information.

Now, 100% of the time if Player B decides to intentionally ban Annie it is because of one of two reasons only. Either they believe that they are superior to Player A and therefore their choice is correct above the considerations that Player B has weighed, or it is simply a malicious act.

Every single possible justification that Player B can give is equally available to Player A and yet Player B has the ability to override any decision making ability of Player A simply because they know better.

Player A has zero recourse other than to dodge. This setup is such that it ALWAYS rewards the mentality of 'I am good at this game and my teammates are idiots' and can only punish those that declare in good faith or have unpopular/non-meta picks.

Every single counter argument in this thread is predicated that you are Player B and that your decision to intentionally ban a teammates declared champ is ALWAYS right. Well, statistically that is impossible.

Over many iterations half the time, all things being equal, Banning would be the right choice, and half not banning is correct. Since Player A will NEVER have an opportunity to play Annie if she is banned then over time this will result in a net negative impact from JUST the decision alone, not to mention the effect on Player A's attitude going into the game.

Not one person has mentioned that their choice to intentionally ban another's champ could be the wrong choice and that is the crux of why I believe the current implementation can only continue to promote toxic behavior in select and statistically it can only get worse, never improve without external change.

ModUlanopo2 votes

This setup is such that it ALWAYS rewards the mentality of 'I am good at this game and my teammates are idiots'

To be fair, most people trust their own competence over others'.

In the end, changing it so that you couldn't ban declared champions is probably a bad idea because it prevents discussion and negotiation. "I'm playing this champion and there's nothing you can do about it" feels pretty awful and all it does is shift the burden of dodging onto the person not playing the controversial champion.

Gives No Lux1 votes

Isn't completely ignoring another person's concerns the exact opposite of being fair?

If you think that protecting declared champions would promote toxic behavior for the reasons you gave then how can you NOT agree that the current system does the EXACT same thing in the opposite direction?

You're telling that player 'NO, I am not going to allow you to play that champion, period, there is nothing you can do about it.'

Yeah, it feels pretty awful and your last statement is the exact point I am arguing. The system as it is rewards anyone who has the mindset that they will decide how another person is allowed to play the game and can ONLY punish someone declaring in good faith, can NEVER benefit them.

Are you starting to realize yet that you are arguing the exact same points that I am only that since you happen to agree with the current state of absolute bans?

Ultimately the difference in the long term comes down to this: Someone can perform well and carry a game with a champion that you might consider a troll pick, or dominate their lane vs. someone you might consider broken on the enemy team. On the other hand that person can 100% of the time do absolutely NOTHING with that champ if they are intentionally banned out by a teammate. This means this the only trend this system can follow is to be overall negative since there will never be a scenario where you ban out a teammates champion, he picks it anyways and proves that your choice was incorrect.

ModUlanopo1 votes

Are you starting to realize yet that you are arguing the exact same points that I am only that since you happen to agree with the current state of absolute bans?

That's not precisely true. I would prefer that people communicate and be reasonable throughout the champion select process.

It occurs to me that all one needs do is not declare a champion and let the chips fall where they may. That's what I do on the rare occasions I play Ranked and it works pretty well for me.


To answer your question, though, bans have to come before picks. That's a simple mechanical truth. This leads to a situation where you either allow people to use their own judgment on how to deploy that ban (current state) or you allow other people to restrict their use of that ban (your suggestion).

Both systems have considerations. Given it's a trivial exercise to program in a block on bans of declared champions, one must assume Riot sees greater value in the current method.

Gives No Lux1 votes

I would absolutely prefer polite conversation as well however that is not possible to enforce.

Your comment about not declaring at all is getting close to my entire point of how the system implementation is a net negative experience overall.

You can not declare and risk getting banned out because team doesn't know your pick. You can declare and risk getting banned out because someone else decides for you that you are not allowed to play that champ. You can declare and not be banned out to which may, or may not have an impact on which champ you choose after the pick phase reaches your turn.

Since the potential for a negative outcome outweighs a neutral or positive outcome by somewhere between 1.5-2:1 then over the course this implementation is a detriment to the health of champ select.

Ultimately the real decision of who you will pick only comes down to your turn in the pick order. That being the case the small amount of potential strategy by giving that info prior to the ban/pick phases.

That means it's main reason for existence is to inform your team of your initial intent so as to avoid them banning out your pre-game preference. Since this can arbitrarily be vetoed by anyone else that decides your choice is 'wrong' then it really serves little positive benefit while leaving champ select open to that many more forms of toxic behavior and abuse.

ModUlanopo1 votes

That means it's main reason for existence is to inform your team of your initial intent so as to avoid them banning out your pre-game preference.

Honestly, I don't think that's the case. It's intended to be a communication tool overall. Team comp matters and Riot likes to provide opportunities to hash that out, at least within the limits of champion select. I think viewing the option to declare as being pretty much for one singular purpose leaves out the other dimensions of the champion select experience.

Gives No Lux1 votes

I believe that was the intention, however as has been pointed out in this thread in implementation declare means squat when it comes to communicating composition.

In practice it gives a small amount of information w/o using chat but in the end all that matters is the ban/pick phases.

Has No Team1 votes

{quoted}

Well, it could also be that they just don't want to play with that champion on the enemy team or in the game at all. I despise teams in which I have to play with a Zilean. They can always play another champion - but I can't ban it after they pick it if I don't want to play with it.

This is just an example - it's slightly rude, but the truth is they can play another champion and likely won't unless theirs is banned.

Yeah there are champions in the game that the validity of this feeling resonates with most people. When I pick Singed people cry about "useless". When I pick Teemo people cry about "Limited team use.". There's good logic in that.

Gives No Lux2 votes

No, it's not slightly rude. It's you taking the attitude that you matter more than the person who declared the champ you wanted to ban. That's the root of all toxic behavior in the game. You are only considering your thoughts and saying that the other person's opinion doesn't matter if it contradicts yours.

Chermorg6 votes

To be quite blunt, the ban mechanic takes priority over the pick mechanic. Hence why the ban mechanic comes first and why there are no rules on who you can ban.

If you are unhappy with the ban mechanic being in place, you are free to play blind pick where there is no ban mechanic. If you choose to play draft, you’re choosing to do so with the ban mechanic - which takes priority over desired picks. You can always pick another champ - but they can’t go back and ban a champ if the enemy takes it or if they don’t want to play with it.

Gives No Lux1 votes

The person who declares should have the same decision power making you're deciding that you deserve over them.

Just because you think something is pick/ban doesn't make it so. If you say Zed is must ban and someone else says they want to risk leaving Zed up then your decision does NOT carry any more weight just because you think it's right.

PresBushDid7113 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am disappoint,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=B3Vv5MEh,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-11-24T02:05:03.945+0000)

The person who declares should have the same decision power making you're deciding that you deserve over them.

Just because you think something is pick/ban doesn't make it so. If you say Zed is must ban and someone else says they want to risk leaving Zed up then your decision does NOT carry any more weight just because you think it's right.

... Every person gets a ban, I happen to ban yas bc he is annoying as F. If you are showing him, and aren't first pick I type in chat "Get one of the top two to get you yas, or he's banned". I let it roll own to about 5 secs remaining and if I don't see what I like, I'm baning him. Ban > Pick

Gives No Lux1 votes

Yes, I agree that is the way the system is set up right now. IMO declaring having zero priority means that the only people who will be advantaged by this system when there is a conflict between declare/ban are those that only consider their own opinion. That promotes toxicity.

Considering the large number of one-tricks out there as well especially as you go up in ranking then intentionally banning out a teammate should make it clear that in solo queue this will only result in an overall negative impact. You don't see someone being intentionally banned out and the resulting outcome being positive.

While it MAY be possible that there will be a negative impact if you don't get your ban it is GUARANTEED that there will be a negative impact to your team if you intentionally ban someone out without their agreement.

PresBushDid7111 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am disappoint,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=B3Vv5MEh,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2017-11-24T02:22:17.153+0000)

Yes, I agree that is the way the system is set up right now. IMO declaring having zero priority means that the only people who will be advantaged by this system when there is a conflict between declare/ban are those that only consider their own opinion. That promotes toxicity.

Considering the large number of one-tricks out there as well especially as you go up in ranking then intentionally banning out a teammate should make it clear that in solo queue this will only result in an overall negative impact. You don't see someone being intentionally banned out and the resulting outcome being positive.

While it MAY be possible that there will be a negative impact if you don't get your ban it is GUARANTEED that there will be a negative impact to your team if you intentionally ban someone out without their agreement.

To be fair, in my elo Silver 4/5, I disregard anyone who says they are a one trick or have a "main". If you've played long enough to have either in ranked, and are still Bronze/Silver then that one trick or main really isn't working.

Gives No Lux1 votes

Again, you are clearly stating that you think your opinion about another person's performance matters more than said player whom you think doesn't live up to your standards.

Tell me again how applying this attitude to intentionally banning someone out is not toxic?

PresBushDid7111 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am disappoint,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=B3Vv5MEh,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-24T02:49:01.605+0000)

Again, you are clearly stating that you think your opinion about another person's performance matters more than said player whom you think doesn't live up to your standards.

Tell me again how applying this attitude to intentionally banning someone out is not toxic?

I'm going to assume you are talking to me since I'm the only one still posting. It's not an opinion, it is a fact that my elo is one of the lower ones. Therefore, it would stand to reason that if someone "mains" a champ, and hasn't moved up, then that is a problem. I surely wouldn't trust a sushi chief that says he is a pro at spicy tuna rolls, if his highest rank so far was selling them out of a cooler in the 7/11 parking lot. Yes, maybe he is really good and just fell on some bad luck..... I'm not risking food poisoning, i.e. LP loss, to find out.

iamthegoatofwar1 votes

Cherm I completely comprehend the 1st 2 points and agree completely. I must admit however that I look at point 3 and consider that to be borderline malicious since you're doing it to remove your allies pick without much strategic reasoning behind it at all. That's my 2 cents on that.

General Esdeath 4 votes

I'd rather not let the enemy team get that 56% win rate champ when my last pick wants it

Has No Team3 votes

Proof there is legitimate reason:

You want a highly contested pick. You're 5th pick. Nor myself of the second pick own said champion. We do not want the other team to pick said currently strong pick. We ban.

Have a happy Thanksgiving.

[slayer-jinx-catface]

Gives No Lux1 votes

This is exactly my point, your attitude that your decision to ban is more important than someone else deciding to play/leave up is not legitimate. In solo queue you don't get to make the decision how to play for another teammate just because you think you know better.

Has No Team3 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am disappoint,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=B3Vv5MEh,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-11-24T02:02:40.892+0000)

This is exactly my point, your attitude that your decision to ban is more important than someone else deciding to play/leave up is not legitimate. In solo queue you don't get to make the decision how to play for another teammate just because you think you know better.

Unluckily for you I do get to make that decision. I get to decide if the risk is worth you getting your pick or the enemy snagging it. Your limited comprehension of scenarios and considerations in the game is quite evident in the fact you view it as malicious. Strategy has been known to evade emotional people though.

Gives No Lux2 votes

Your summoner name along with this comment make it clear that you're in the camp of your opinion is the only one that matters because anyone who disagrees is obviously of 'limited comprehension.'

This is the definition of toxic.

PresBushDid7111 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am disappoint,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=B3Vv5MEh,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-24T02:33:08.846+0000)

Your summoner name along with this comment make it clear that you're in the camp of your opinion is the only one that matters because anyone who disagrees is obviously of 'limited comprehension.'

This is the definition of toxic.

My summoner name comes from the game Aion, where the Asmodians always claimed they only lost pvp events because of the numbers, and not because of a lack of leadership. I enjoyed the name so I brought it here.

Would you like to contest my points now, or just continue on with no substance?

Gives No Lux1 votes

This was a reply to 'Cry More Pls' post.

Could be that you're posting under multiple accounts and got them confused, or it could be that you just think that everything is always about you. Given your previous arguments in this thread I suppose I could see it going either way.

Has No Team1 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am disappoint,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=B3Vv5MEh,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-24T02:45:02.101+0000)

This was a reply to 'Cry More Pls' post.

Could be that you're posting under multiple accounts and got them confused, or it could be that you just think that everything is always about you. Given your previous arguments in this thread I suppose I could see it going either way.

No that's not my account. Although why do my summoner name and logical argument for which you've presented no clear counterpoint mean that I am toxic ? Is toxicity the idea that you cannot argue something ?

Gives No Lux1 votes

Just read your own post. It's not even passive aggressive, it's straightforward insulting. You don't make an argument, you simply state you're right because you're superior. THAT is toxic.

Has No Team3 votes

I made the argument as to the validity of the situation and you immediately took offense and went on a personal level. I do not care for your feelings on how I respond to you I only care about your counterpoint. If you cannot take someone speaking with no formalities and without regard for things like emotion then that problem is yours alone. The point remains that your original pompous argument of no foreseeable acceptable situation for the feature is inherently flawed due to your limited scope of understanding owing to having been targeted or supposedly targeted by someone.

Albeit not knowing the context I cannot say if the person was being strategic or an ass but I would wager they were an ass and you were upset by the abuse of a feature. This is giving you the benefit of the doubt saying you perceived their intentions correctly. Either which way this is what trolls do. They take intended features and misuse them. Does this mean the feature itself is flawed? Yes... Does it mean it serves no purpose ? No. You have yet to argue against this point and only against my demeanor and summoner name.

Gives No Lux1 votes

Unluckily for you I do get to make that decision. I get to decide if the risk is worth you getting your pick or the enemy snagging it. Your limited comprehension of scenarios and considerations in the game is quite evident in the fact you view it as malicious. Strategy has been known to evade emotional people though.

Please explain to me which words in this exact quote is a counter argument to my feedback about the declare/ban system and which fall into the category of condescending and meant purely to insult me?

If you prefer I can just report the post and the mods can decide.

Has No Team3 votes

The original statement i made was the argument to your absolutist logic on the issue. You copied the wrong response to serve your purpose. Try another thorough read.

zPOOPz4 votes

What does a summoner name have to do with anything?

Are you so lacking in rebuttal you have to resort to basically "name calling"?

Sad

Number 1 rule in debate/discussion. Attack the points a person is making, not the person himself.

Gives No Lux1 votes

Please take the time to read the thread if you're going to comment.

With a name of 'Cry More Pls' and a non-constructive, insulting and condescending response it is perfectly logical to make a judgement on his character.

The character trait of believing that your opinion/choice in champ select is superior because of your attitude cuts straight to the heart of the argument of why I feel the declare/ban system is flawed.

Actually, the number 1 rule of debate is to understand the argument. Which part of all of this confuses you, I will elaborate if you like.

Has No Team3 votes

Your original statement marks you as someone I have to speak differently to. You say as if it were fact that there is no justifiable situation in which the ability to ban a hovered champ on your team is a feature worth using. You were wrong in this and now that I have provided a context in which it is viable you have yet to make a counterpoint and only attack my demeanor and name. Granted I am being blunt and I am not conversing with kid gloves but I assure you should I mean to be hostile it would not be up to interpretation i would simply be hostile.

Gives No Lux1 votes

Ok, if you're going to resort to threats then I will just let the mods do their thing. I will not respond to you further.

Has No Team3 votes

You're very defensive. It wasn't a threat... Just plain speech. Actually it was an explanation to be honest but I think you may have a victim complex. Relax grab a beer and perhaps let off whatever steam has you thinking some stranger on the internet cares enough to attack you.

PresBushDid7112 votes

I actually liked previous seasons where you couldn't "show" who you were picking. People would actually look up counters and such. Now people are hell bent on keeping their "lock in" no matter what the enemy picks.

Likewise, people had to know multi roles in case they got pick 4 or 5. You didn't run into the auto losses bc you got the jungler who never jungled or the supp who hates supping... at least not as often.

Gives No Lux1 votes

I kind of agree. I like the idea of knowing what the team is thinking of doing, however in practice, just like chat in game, it seems that 9/10 you're more likely to get negative attitudes than positive. That being the case I think I would actually prefer it to be dark again rather than open to even more trolling and champion select hostage situations.

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