Boards›Player Behavior

Does Riot Take in user opinion on the automated ban System?

SchwiftyLord··2 votes·1,813 views

Title pretty much says it all. I think the ban system has morphed the community into one where player's act more victimized than ever. If the chat can only be used to give compliments, why not just get rid of the chat and let us use thumb's up emote?

I was playing a game as an ADC, and most of the time I use the chat to help us get to a victory. For strategizing and working with my teammates. Most of the time my supports are civil people. I tell this support that we need to play in the minion wave, because Thresh will keep hooking us.

He gets all upset in the chat, mutes me. Then proceeds to flame me all game while I'm muted. Rallies the team to ban me.

And now I'm permanently banned. Not one swear word in my chat log.

To be honest, I understand the ban algorithm, but why even have the chat, if sending 3 messages consecutively can pickup the ban filter? We can't express ourselves without running the risk of a ban. Why have the a chat where people can express themselves, and then ban people for that?

Clearly it's bringing out the worst in players. "You are among 0.0006% of players negative enough to be permanently banned." That's funny I see players all the time swearing and flaming. It's like on average 2 players a match. This is just a false statistic, or a very misleading one. Likely not the true value of "toxic" players in the active community. Maybe out of all accounts ever made.

My point is, this system of banning doesn't reform players and doesn't improve player's attitudes. It just gives people a tool to threaten players that they don't even know. Instead of a positive community, I go into games where players are using the report function as a threat and getting others to use it too bully other players.

How is this helping? We have a mute function, I'd say leave it at that. A toxic player is just going to make another account anyway, and be more spiteful.

Or at least make permanent mute, why ban I player who isn't griefing?

Anyways that's my rant. No doubt anyone will listen. I get it people are more thinned-skin these days, but this just seems more like an attempt to get people to make a new account and rebuy their skins, than an attempt of ridding the community of toxicity.

THanks

40 Comments

Voldymort7 votes

He gets all upset in the chat, mutes me. Then proceeds to flame me all game while I'm muted. Rallies the team to ban me.

even if all 9 people were to report you for an entire season every time you played the game, if you did nothing wrong, nothing will happen. report pressure is not a thing

And now I'm permanently banned. Not one swear word in my chat log.

prove it! show chatlogs!

To be honest, I understand the ban algorithm,

based on what you said so far, i highly doubt it

but why even have the chat, if sending 3 messages consecutively can pickup the ban filter?

it depends what you send

We can't express ourselves without running the risk of a ban. Why have the a chat where people can express themselves, and then ban people for that?

you can express yourself just fine without being toxic

"You are among 0.0006% of players negative enough to be permanently banned." That's funny I see players all the time swearing and flaming. It's like on average 2 players a match. This is just a false statistic, or a very misleading one. Likely not the true value of "toxic" players in the active community. Maybe out of all accounts ever made.

because you said so?

unless you have some actual arguments that disprove it other than "because i said so", i suggest you keep your nay-saying to yourself

My point is, this system of banning doesn't reform players and doesn't improve player's attitudes. It just gives people a tool to threaten players that they don't even know. Instead of a positive community, I go into games where players are using the report function as a threat and getting others to use it too bully other players.

invalid reports dont do anything, no matter how many they are

Or at least make permanent mute, why ban I player who isn't griefing?

they tried that. it didn't solve the problem. it just replaced it with another because typically the ones who were muted found other ways to ruin a game

I get it people are more thinned-skin

no comment

SchwiftyLord1 votes

"even if all 9 people were to report you for an entire season every time you played the game, if you did nothing wrong, nothing will happen. report pressure is not a thing"

you asked me to prove my claims. Can you prove this claim? It has happened more often than you think.

"no comment"

Can you explain yourself here?

Scuttle1 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/f/ZGEFLEUQ/d/9VrUtrJo?comment=0000000000020000000000000000

Here ya go.

SchwiftyLord1 votes

Thanks, interesting read.

Voldymort4 votes

you asked me to prove my claims. Can you prove this claim? It has happened more often than you think.

sure. Riot Tantram, the person in charge of the report system, released the code for how reports work a while back

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=t4BNHARj,comment-id=00030000000000000002,timestamp=2017-05-09T20:27:51.768+0000)

4+ reports is the same as 1.

A report, or 9 reports, flag a game for review.

if (reports > 0) { reviewGame(); }

in other words, regardless if you were reported by 1 person, 2 persons, 3, or 9, there will only be ONE investigation. if nothing wrong is discovered, there is no punishment.

you can ask whatever rioter or boards moderator you come across about it. they will all say the same thing!

Can you explain yourself here?

certainly!

the only people who use "thin skin" in an argument about toxicity are the flamers who are perfectly happy with bothering other people with their negative behaviour and would rather the people complaining "suck it up and deal with it" rather than accomodating them by not being jerks. it's the epitome of entitledness.

SchwiftyLord1 votes

Thanks, Scuttle already informed me. But I don't think this evidence really shows that the system is not flawed in this area.

SchwiftyLord1 votes

"certainly!"

the only people who use "thin skin" in an argument about toxicity are the flamers who are perfectly happy with bothering other people with their behaviour and would rather the people complaining "suck it up and deal with it" rather than accomodating them by not being jerks. it's the epitome of entitledness."

I take issue with that statement. It's not fair to generalize everyone into one bucket like that. Let me give you an example.

My mom is a really nice lady, she volunteers at the church, she helps out at the nursing home and takes the old people for walks around the block. When I was 6 years old, I came home from school crying, because a kid called me stupid.

My mom said "in this world we live in, people are going to say things you don't like, and you are allowed to be upset, but you can't be thinned-skin you can't let other peoples remarks break you down and get the best of you."

Does that mean my Mom is a flamer? Maybe there are examples and context where thin-skinned is an accurate term that comes from a place of love?

You took my comment personally I think. I'm not trying to flame you, I'm just merely stating that if people adopted a tougher stance and didn't let words in an online video game hold any weight, things might be better.

Voldymort5 votes

. It's not fair to generalize everyone into one bucket like that.

if you don't like it when people generalize stuff, then why is it ok when you do it?

{quoted} "You are among 0.0006% of players negative enough to be permanently banned." That's funny I see players all the time swearing and flaming. It's like on average 2 players a match. This is just a false statistic, or a very misleading one. Likely not the true value of "toxic" players in the active community. Maybe out of all accounts ever made.

hmm...?

I'm just merely stating that if people adopted a tougher stance and didn't let words in an online video game hold any weight, things might be better.

then why were you banned for being toxic in chat? could you not "adopt a tougher stance" concerning what the other mean players said or did?

SchwiftyLord1 votes

What do you mean? According to you I was the perpetrator?

This is my point. Look at yourself for example. I've done nothing wrong to you, but you are trying to find a reason to dislike me, not advance the conversation forward.

First you claim all people who say thin-skinned are flamers and toxic. I rebuttal, but instead responding to my comment. You are changing the topic and now call me a flamer.

You don't know who I am, only that I get banned from Riot's ban system. We could be friends in real life man.

I think you should reread what I was responding to and stay on topic.

Voldymort2 votes

First you claim all people who say thin-skinned are flamers and toxic. I rebuttal, but instead responding to my comment. You are changing the topic and now call me a flamer.

you rebutted by telling me a story about how your mother taught you to ignore mean words people adress you.

so i ask again: why were you banned for being toxic in chat if your mother told you to "adopt a tougher stance" concerning what the other mean players said or did?

does your mom's lesson only apply to others and not you?

SchwiftyLord1 votes

See this is my point. I left, went to the gym, and when I came back I noticed two things. You changed your comment from what you previously said, and you are still trying to pick a fight on the internet.

I don't know what your quarrel is?

All I asked was your feedback on what your issue was with thin-skinned. Why are you trying to flame? You are really defensive over me voicing my opinion on the ban system.

I think we both agree the ban system needs work, so let's try to steer the conversation back on topic.

Voldymort3 votes

i see you're still dodging questions into off topic discussions. there's no point talking to you

i'm done

[vlad-salute]

SchwiftyLord1 votes

Lol, I'm literally just calling you out on what you are doing. Seeing as you are only here for an argument, and can't get one. I understand why you are leaving.

I don't have any issues with you friend. And I'm not going to answer your question because you are walking into this conversation wanting to pick a fight. I've said countless times, I'm not here to discuss my ban, but the system at large. Please stop focusing on me, as that is not what this is about.

Thank you.

RxO Carmada1 votes

invalid reports dont do anything, no matter how many they are

Actually, they do, even Riot has mentioned that being reported frequently, even if invalid can trigger a manual review, which would punish a user more harshly for something of less significance.

The rest I agree with though.

Voldymort1 votes

relevant discussion:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/f/ZGEFLEUQ/d/9VrUtrJo?comment=0000000000020000000000000000

Jamaree6 votes

{quoted}

Title pretty much says it all. I think the ban system has morphed the community into one where player's act more victimized than ever. If the chat can only be used to give compliments, why not just get rid of the chat and let us use thumb's up emote?

Because people still actively use it for other things like communication and enemy placement.

I was playing a game as an ADC, and most of the time I use the chat to help us get to a victory. For strategizing and working with my teammates. Most of the time my supports are civil people. I tell this support that we need to play in the minion wave, because Thresh will keep hooking us.

Hence why the chat is still a thing.

He gets all upset in the chat, mutes me. Then proceeds to flame me all game while I'm muted. Rallies the team to ban me.

Now did you say "Hey, we need to play in the minion wave to risk not getting hooked." OR did you say "Holy shit you idiot, play in the fucking minion wave."

Because one gets you banned, the other one doesn't.

And now I'm permanently banned. Not one swear word in my chat log.

Post your chat logs.

To be honest, I understand the ban algorithm, but why even have the chat, if sending 3 messages consecutively can pickup the ban filter? We can't express ourselves without running the risk of a ban. Why have the a chat where people can express themselves, and then ban people for that?

You have the right to express yourself, just like how they have the right to report you for hurting their experience.

Clearly it's bringing out the worst in players. "You are among 0.0006% of players negative enough to be permanently banned." That's funny I see players all the time swearing and flaming. It's like on average 2 players a match. This is just a false statistic, or a very misleading one. Likely not the true value of "toxic" players in the active community. Maybe out of all accounts ever made.

Swearing is fine, swearing has never gotten you banned, you can curse like a sailor all day and never even see a chat restriction. I personally constantly says fuck and shit and have never gotten a warning, it is when you start point it at people that they report you for it.

My point is, this system of banning doesn't reform players and doesn't improve player's attitudes. It just gives people a tool to threaten players that they don't even know. Instead of a positive community, I go into games where players are using the report function as a threat and getting others to use it too bully other players.

Ignore them, who cares if they threaten to report you, you say it yourself, you have a mute function.

How is this helping? We have a mute function, I'd say leave it at that. A toxic player is just going to make another account anyway, and be more spiteful.

Why didn't you?

Or at least make permanent mute, why ban I player who isn't griefing?

They tried that, it failed as the toxic players just used other means to be toxic.

Anyways that's my rant. No doubt anyone will listen. I get it people are more thinned-skin these days, but this just seems more like an attempt to get people to make a new account and rebuy their skins, than an attempt of ridding the community of toxicity.

THanks

They have tried plenty of other methods, less harsh and slower scaling punishments, perma mutes, reformation, all of them failed with the people dead set on being toxic go out of their way to be as toxic as possible no matter what. Some people are just assholes and will use every excuse to not blame themselves or have so little self control they would rather rip into their allies then realize people fuck up, that is just what happens.

SchwiftyLord1 votes

You are coming from the standpoint, that I was flaming the guy. Which is fine, it's easier to just assume the one banned by the "automated" system isn't innocent. I get it. And I'm not here to prove that. And what's the point of posting chat logs if they can be doctored and lacking context. If you guys are wanting to see them to make an assessment sure, but how can you trust me? And how is that a fair assessment, if you weren't in the game and couldn't see both sides.

It's the system that I want to discuss. It's changing players man. I've been playing since season 2 and absolutely love this game, I want the community to improve. I haven't found any evidence to suggest this way of handling things is an improvement from other methods. From friends and subjective feel it seems to have gotten worse.

Maybe Riot is just claiming lower levels of toxicity. I wonder how many accounts are banned in the active account pool. Valve did a similar thing for ages. They use VAC which bans players in large player pools after a hack has proliferated. With full knowledge, they wait months for the hack to spread then they ban all players with the expectation that many will rebuy the game.

Considering some accounts have spent over $100 on skins and that the amount of perm bans league reports is not transparent relative to active player count. It seems a little too convenient for Riot to have a system that bans players permanent on the daily only to have an almost guarantee that that player will come back, make/buy another account and continue the cycle.

Even if you are the type that wants to stand by the system, and praise it. Surely, you can agree there is room for improvement. Discussion brings us one step closer.

Jamaree5 votes

{quoted}

You are coming from the standpoint, that I was flaming the guy. Which is fine, it's easier to just assume the one banned by the "automated" system isn't innocent. I get it. And I'm not here to prove that. And what's the point of posting chat logs if they can be doctored and lacking context. If you guys are wanting to see them to make an assessment sure, but how can you trust me? And how is that a fair assessment, if you weren't in the game and couldn't see both sides.

Because there is never a good reason to flame your allies. If you are truly innocent, and the system is flawed, it is by the way, but not the way you are thinking, then your chat logs should prove that it is. Most people here want to complain the system is bad are the players rightfully punished by it.

It's the system that I want to discuss. It's changing players man. I've been playing since season 2 and absolutely love this game, I want the community to improve. I haven't found any evidence to suggest this way of handling things is an improvement from other methods. From friends and subjective feel it seems to have gotten worse.

It isn't, but every other method they have tried has failed because the truly toxic players are just gonna be toxic.

Maybe Riot is just claiming lower levels of toxicity. I wonder how many accounts are banned in the active account pool. Valve did a similar thing for ages. They use VAC which bans players in large player pools after a hack has proliferated. With full knowledge, they wait months for the hack to spread then they ban all players with the expectation that many will rebuy the game.

I don't think Riot has ever actually claimed the toxicity levels have dropped.

Considering some accounts have spent over $100 on skins and that the amount of perm bans league reports is not transparent relative to active player count. It seems a little too convenient for Riot to have a system that bans players permanent on the daily only to have an almost guarantee that that player will come back, make/buy another account and continue the cycle.

You got a better idea for a system to keep players away?

Even if you are the type that wants to stand by the system, and praise it. Surely, you can agree there is room for improvement. Discussion brings us one step closer.

God no, this system is flawed, the Tribunal was far and along a better system, but the community refused to put in the work to make it work and others abused it.

SchwiftyLord1 votes

I'm not saying I've got better ideas, but surely this could be a starting place. Maybe it's not worth the time putting in the effort. I haven't been on the boards in a while, but I see an awful amount of posts from unique accounts condmening the ban system. And surely, a lot of people, maybe even myself had it coming according to Riot's disciplinary standards, but a lot just seem like genuine players who arn't inting just using the chat because it's made available.

However, I always see the same accounts responding, defending the system, scrutinizing the player who despite getting flagged by the system, may still have some valid arguments.

Personally, I think if you are going to instill punishments into a community for actions, the punishment should fit the crime. And you make disagree, or you may agree. This is a public forum, for public opinion and free speech. I don't get why I can say my thoughts as I've done here without instant censorship, but we can't duplicate that in game.

We seem to be having a civil discussion. The average player seems to either be a flamer or a victim, nothing is grey these days in the eyes of Riot, despite human speech being filled with context that defines the nature of the conversation and nuances playing a key role. Just doesn't seem conducive to a sustainable future to have a system that operates this way.

Voldymort2 votes

but I see an awful amount of posts from unique accounts condmening the ban system.

and they are all from flamers who don't see slurs, harassment, score shaming or suicide suggestions as something bad. "it's just banter"

SchwiftyLord1 votes

That's kind of like Hillary Clinton saying all trump supporters are deplorables.

-edit.

Nevermind, I see you edited your post to dress up the negative connotation.

Voldymort2 votes

Nevermind, I see you edited your post to dress up the negative connotation

that's not why. whenever i click enter, i read it again and make modifications if i find that i've failed to explain something properly. it's a habit.

I don't believe this to be true.

just because you don't believe it's true, it doesn't mean that it isn't. i suggest you present a propper argument instead of nay-saying

[slayer-jinx-wink]

SchwiftyLord1 votes

I understand, I just assume that when people say something, they mean it the first time. In real life you don't get a redo on what you have said.

It seemed rather disengenuous to completely say something different from your initial remark. Especially after I had already responded xD

SchwiftyLord1 votes

I will repond to your newly worded rebuttal.

I don't believe this to be true. Maybe the players that hurt you. But there are just innocent players that get banned. I've seen it on stream.

Jamaree3 votes

{quoted}

I'm not saying I've got better ideas, but surely this could be a starting place. Maybe it's not worth the time putting in the effort. I haven't been on the boards in a while, but I see an awful amount of posts from unique accounts condmening the ban system. And surely, a lot of people, maybe even myself had it coming according to Riot's disciplinary standards, but a lot just seem like genuine players who arn't inting just using the chat because it's made available.

When you are only on the Player Behavior part of the forums, of course you are only going to hear about the negativity and problems with the system, that is like going to a precinct or a prison and hearing about how corrupt the system is, most of the people are going to say that because they were punished by it. It's all relative, but compared to most people who never even see a punishment, players like this are the minority, just the players who are the majority, who don't get in trouble aren't going to come here and say "Oh, I'm not punished.", no reason to.

However, I always see the same accounts responding, defending the system, scrutinizing the player who despite getting flagged by the system, may still have some valid arguments.

No one is saying the system is perfect, it isn't.

Personally, I think if you are going to instill punishments into a community for actions, the punishment should fit the crime. And you make disagree, or you may agree. This is a public forum, for public opinion and free speech. I don't get why I can say my thoughts as I've done here without instant censorship, but we can't duplicate that in game.

Not how free speech works, yes, you are free to post your opinion, people don't have to agree with it.

We seem to be having a civil discussion. The average player seems to either be a flamer or a victim, nothing is grey these days in the eyes of Riot, despite human speech being filled with context that defines the nature of the conversation and nuances playing a key role. Just doesn't seem conducive to a sustainable future to have a system that operates this way.

I would still like to hear about a better idea.

SchwiftyLord1 votes

"I would still like to hear about a better idea."

Very first thing you quoted me saying: "I'm not saying I've got better idea"

"No one is saying the system is perfect, it isn't."

I can link you many, many, many threads where accounts are claiming the system is perfect.

"Not how free speech works, yes, you are free to post your opinion, people don't have to agree with it."

I never said you couldn't be open to criticism, that in fact is entirely my point. Free speech creates a platform for opinions and criticism xD

Voldymort5 votes

I can link you many, many, many threads where accounts are claiming the system is perfect.

you can... but will you? that's the question. because when your chatlogs were brought up, all you could be bothered to offer were excuses why you wouldn't bother

Free speech

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/free_speech.png

Jamaree4 votes

{quoted}

"I would still like to hear about a better idea."

Very first thing you quoted me saying: "I'm not saying I've got better idea"

Then what exactly is the point of this thread then? That is what is truly confusing me, is it opening a dialogue? Fair enough, the system is flawed, it is, there is no such thing as a perfect system, never will be. Hell, I don't even think Riot should waste all that much time trying to figure out systems to cull the toxic players, they should instead strive to reward the good players.

"No one is saying the system is perfect, it isn't."

I can link you many, many, many threads where accounts are claiming the system is perfect.

And I can link just as my threads saying the system is flawed, with those people very clearly deserving their ban.

SchwiftyLord1 votes

I figured it was to open a dialogue. Forgive as I haven't been on these boards in ages. But I came here and took the time to deliver my thoughts on the system and every reply I have had so far with the exception of yourself (who I think is at least trying to be constructive), has been coming from the place of condescension and targeted at me.

When I mentioned free speech, I was talking about how, how is it that you and I can talk here freely and debate something, but we can't have the same civil discourse in game. I never said I wasn't opened to being challenged on my points of view. That was the wrong takeaway from my free speech comment.

I didn't realize the boards have gotten to the point where I need to cater my conversation so much that it doesn't trigger folks.

It seems like many here are accustomed to players complaining about being wrongfully banned. I say this again, I am not hear to appeal my ban, but to open a conversation about improving the ban system.

Jamaree3 votes

{quoted}

I figured it was to open a dialogue. Forgive as I haven't been on these boards in ages. But I came here and took the time to deliver my thoughts on the system and every reply I have had so far with the exception of yourself (who I think is at least trying to be constructive), has been coming from the place of condescension and targeted at me.

Mostly because people here are tried and jaded from every post like this acting like it isn't their fault, like they HAD to flame, like they weren't the problem.

When I mentioned free speech, I was talking about how, how is it that you and I can talk here freely and debate something, but we can't have the same civil discourse in game. I never said I wasn't opened to being challenged on my points of view. That was the wrong takeaway from my free speech comment.

To be fair, you still haven't shown that that your way of pointing out plays for your team was actual civil discourse and not just flaming, which is a reason people aren't going to take this seriously.

I didn't realize the boards have gotten to the point where I need to cater my conversation so much that it doesn't trigger folks.

It seems like many here are accustomed to players complaining about being wrongfully banned. I say this again, I am not hear to appeal my ban, but to open a conversation about improving the ban system.

I honestly don't think it can be improved, toxic people are gonna be toxic, no matter what you do.

SchwiftyLord1 votes

I explained I didn't post my chat logs, because I don't see the purpose. I explained how anyone could doctor them so what's the point. I could very well just type them out to look like I did nothing wrong.

Also I don't think it's necessary for me to post them? This thread isn't about me trying to have my account unbanned.

I'm not saying improve the toxic people, I mean redefine the conditions the ban system operates under a circumstance that bans players who truly are going out of their way to grief a game.

Jamaree4 votes

{quoted}

I explained I didn't post my chat logs, because I don't see the purpose. I explained how anyone could doctor them so what's the point. I could very well just type them out to look like I did nothing wrong.

Screenshot?

I'm not saying improve the toxic people, I mean redefine the conditions the ban system operates under a circumstance that bans players who truly are going out of their way to grief a game.

And players who go out of their way to belittle their allies and make them feel horrible and thus play worst aren't?

Thee Pie Man2 votes

{quoted}

I explained I didn't post my chat logs, because I don't see the purpose. I explained how anyone could doctor them so what's the point. I could very well just type them out to look like I did nothing wrong.

Also I don't think it's necessary for me to post them? This thread isn't about me trying to have my account unbanned.

I'm not saying improve the toxic people, I mean redefine the conditions the ban system operates under a circumstance that bans players who truly are going out of their way to grief a game.

As Jamaree says, just screenshot your email you got that has the logs and put it on imgur then link it here. Very easy and you can put a little bit of editing magic to work editing out your email if you don't want it to be done.

It is necessary because all we have is your word to take you on. How can we possibly believe your word here about you not swearing, if you don't even believe that you wouldn't tell lies/edit your own logs to make yourself look better? That makes very little sense and comes full circle as a fallacy.

There's no real reason to redefine the system. I think the idea it works off of reports that triggers reviews of the case is a good way to cull the herd and honestly I feel like it has worked to a small degree, it isn't perfect, it hasn't 100% eliminated toxic players but it has definitely made the environment more enjoyable for me personally.

Scuttle4 votes

The system was literally built by analyzing the games of the tribunal and finding what the PLAYERS thought was punishable. In fact, it evolves based on what people report.

So yes, it does take user opinion into account. It's built on user opinion.

SchwiftyLord1 votes

Don't you think that kind of creates a feedback loop that could easily spiral out of control.

Scuttle1 votes

How so? Why would the players determining what is punishable in the game they play be a bad thing?

SchwiftyLord1 votes

Because there are also players who can just hit report because they don't like someone, giving false conditions for the system to ban someone.

Scuttle3 votes

The conditions are based on millions and millions of games. Some people false reporting isn't going to add anything to the system as reportable, because it will be just random and there won't be anything in common for the system to pick up. It takes millions of reports for something to become punishable, not just a few.

Sure, if millions of people sudden started reporting anyone who said "hi," and only chatlogs that contained "hi," it could become punishable. But millions of people are NOT doing that. So the standards for punishment stay clearly where the community defines them.

Silent Gravity2 votes

It is also manually curated by Riot.

EvilDustMan3 votes

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