My unpopular opinion on player behavior and punishments

Z Statistic·2/16/2016, 9:31:09 PM·25 votes·2,529 views

I believe that punishments should fit the category of the offense. Actions in League (or really any game) fall into two broad categories: social and gameplay. Social is interacting with other players. Gameplay is strictly interacting with the game. They aren't perfect definitions, but I think they work, especially for MMOs. I know a lot of you played WoW and Runescape back in the day. Hurling offensive and rude speech incessantly would be a social thing whereas exploiting a glitch or griefing players (except for very specific circumstances) would be a gameplay thing. It's pretty cut and dry there.

In League, it's slightly more complicated. Sure, there are glitches like the 0 cooldown flash hack or the glitch that allowed one to leave a game and avoid loss of mmr and LP. That's pretty obvious. It's cheating. But what about griefing? Well, except in specific situations like 0/30/0, it's hard to tell if someone is just bad or intentionally feeding. There are actions in MMOs where the analogous thing in League is very murky. I firmly believe in innocent until proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, so this restricts the gameplay abuses to things that are basically just cheating.

Think about it. Any time you confront a toxic person, what are they doing? 9:1 says verbally abusing you. Even if you want to punish them for that, it's clearly different from gameplay abuses. Now the crux of this point: in my humble opinion, gameplay abuses should be met with and only with gameplay restrictions, and social abuses should be met with and only with social restrictions.

What that amounts to is that I believe that a 14 day game ban for hurling gratuitous amounts of verbal filth at people is inappropriate. Instead, a mute is in order. This is different from chat restrictions. There, you CAN talk but only for a limited amount per game. A mute means you can't speak at all. And if they continue to abuse social systems after the mute is lifted? Scale it to a permanent mute. Don't ban them. If no one can hear their shit, does it make a sound? What does it matter if the person would call their teammates every slur under the sun for missing 3 cs if they can't actually say it to them?

Permanent bans imo be should saved only for cheaters and blatant griefers.

Riot, you have a mute system in place. If someone is muted several standard deviations greater than the mean, why not just start them muted for their 4 allies and 5 opponents? Chat restrictions are like the mother saying, 'ok, if you're good today, we'll go to Chucky Cheese's'. If the child has proven they are little brats, then the mother shouldn't even entertain the idea. Likewise, if someone has shown they don't care about chat restrictions, just mute them.

This could also expand into other social systems. For example, if they are auto-muted, they cannot add people first, only accept requests. They cannot initiate a conversation via pm, only respond one. These things need not automatically apply, but if someone adds people just to berate them, it's a great thing to have.

My opinion is born from a trend I've seen over the seasons: players are encouraged to report, not necessarily mute people. That's bonkers. In fact, a mute should be in the same category (not necessarily same strength though) as a report. Actually, I'll go a step further: the option to report a player for verbal abuse should be removed and instead, Riot should hammer in muting into players heads and treat mutes similar to verbal abuse reports.

I can't count on my hands the number of times people have posted on the forums over the years that they don't mute because then they don't have evidence to punish the person. That's ridiculous. It's also stupid. You want to report this person for your abuse but don't take steps to block him? That doesn't justify his behavior, but why would you willingly subject yourself to abuse for no good reason? Players need to take more responsibility for dealing with situations of verbal abuse instead of putting on Riot to vindicate them when Riot has already given us all the tools we need to deal with these cases as they happen.

TL;DR

  1. In my opinion, verbal abuse should lead only to chat restrictions, time/#game based mutes, and permanent mutes, not bans of any kind. Cheating and griefing should lead to bans and not CR/mutes.
  2. Riot should have more systems in place to facilitate social restrictions for the outliers.
  3. Muting players should be the go-to answer for dealing with toxic players, not reporting them.
  4. Mutes should be treated as report, but not necessarily as powerful as reports (sometimes you just don't want to see their messages, whether they are toxic or not.)

66 Comments

Zielmann2/16/2016, 9:45:24 PM15 votes

Except social issues become gameplay issues. The person being super negative in chat only brings down the whole team, which can directly translate to a loss. Or maybe the person is too busy typing into chat to actually be playing the game.

People shouldn't need to mute people. The feature exists as a way to help people deal with negative players, not as an excuse for those players to continue their behavior.

But my bigger issue with an idea like this is that the players who want to make your experience awful are going to find ways to do it. So you let the player who rages at his teammates for every little mistake they make, give warnings, temp chat restrictions, and eventually a chat ban. Do you really think that just because the player can't chat, they'll magically stop causing problems?

I don't believe that to be the case. That rager, once they've had their chat privileges permanently revoked, will find other means of taking their anger out on allies. And the only avenue left for that is through gameplay itself. Be it intentional feeding, going afk, abandoning the team, sabotaging farm from jungler or other laners, they're going to express their anger somehow.

So now with a system like that, the problem players are suddenly able to stay around the game far longer than they otherwise would have. They have to walk all the way through to the permanent chat ban. Then they'll have to work up through to a permaban for their gameplay behavior.

ReadyxPlayerxOne2/17/2016, 1:56:25 AM4 votes

I don't see it that way. I think of league as like an online basketball court. If you go to your gym, and you are an asshole to the people there who are playing, they don't tell you that you can't talk and can still play the game. They specifically tell you, GTFO you're done, we don't want you here. It's no different. Just because there's an ability to separate the social and mechanical aspects of this game doesn't mean it should be done. Specifically because being unable to communicate with your team is a disadvantage to your team.

Gromlet2/16/2016, 11:36:03 PM4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Menea Calais,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=9YFK3ZYJ,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-02-16T21:31:09.830+0000)

I believe that punishments should fit the category of the offense. Actions in League (or really any game) fall into two broad categories: social and gameplay. Social is interacting with other players. Gameplay is strictly interacting with the game. They aren't perfect definitions, but I think they work, especially for MMOs. I know a lot of you played WoW and Runescape back in the day. Hurling offensive and rude speech incessantly would be a social thing whereas exploiting a glitch or griefing players (except for very specific circumstances) would be a gameplay thing. It's pretty cut and dry there.

In League, it's slightly more complicated. Sure, there are glitches like the 0 cooldown flash hack or the glitch that allowed one to leave a game and avoid loss of mmr and LP. That's pretty obvious. It's cheating. But what about griefing? Well, except in specific situations like 0/30/0, it's hard to tell if someone is just bad or intentionally feeding. There are actions in MMOs where the analogous thing in League is very murky. I firmly believe in innocent until proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, so this restricts the gameplay abuses to things that are basically just cheating.

Think about it. Any time you confront a toxic person, what are they doing? 9:1 says verbally abusing you. Even if you want to punish them for that, it's clearly different from gameplay abuses. Now the crux of this point: in my humble opinion, gameplay abuses should be met with and only with gameplay restrictions, and social abuses should be met with and only with social restrictions.

What that amounts to is that I believe that a 14 day game ban for hurling gratuitous amounts of verbal filth at people is inappropriate. Instead, a mute is in order. This is different from chat restrictions. There, you CAN talk but only for a limited amount per game. A mute means you can't speak at all. And if they continue to abuse social systems after the mute is lifted? Scale it to a permanent mute. Don't ban them. If no one can hear their shit, does it make a sound? What does it matter if the person would call their teammates every slur under the sun for missing 3 cs if they can't actually say it to them?

Permanent bans imo be should saved only for cheaters and blatant griefers.

Riot, you have a mute system in place. If someone is muted several standard deviations greater than the mean, why not just start them muted for their 4 allies and 5 opponents? Chat restrictions are like the mother saying, 'ok, if you're good today, we'll go to Chucky Cheese's'. If the child has proven they are little brats, then the mother shouldn't even entertain the idea. Likewise, if someone has shown they don't care about chat restrictions, just mute them.

This could also expand into other social systems. For example, if they are auto-muted, they cannot add people first, only accept requests. They cannot initiate a conversation via pm, only respond one. These things need not automatically apply, but if someone adds people just to berate them, it's a great thing to have.

My opinion is born from a trend I've seen over the seasons: players are encouraged to report, not necessarily mute people. That's bonkers. In fact, a mute should be in the same category (not necessarily same strength though) as a report. Actually, I'll go a step further: the option to report a player for verbal abuse should be removed and instead, Riot should hammer in muting into players heads and treat mutes similar to verbal abuse reports.

I can't count on my hands the number of times people have posted on the forums over the years that they don't mute because then they don't have evidence to punish the person. That's ridiculous. It's also stupid. You want to report this person for your abuse but don't take steps to block him? That doesn't justify his behavior, but why would you willingly subject yourself to abuse for no good reason? Players need to take more responsibility for dealing with situations of verbal abuse instead of putting on Riot to vindicate them when Riot has already given us all the tools we need to deal with these cases as they happen.

  1. In my opinion, verbal abuse should lead only to chat restrictions, time/#game based mutes, and permanent mutes, not bans of any kind. Cheating and griefing should lead to bans and not CR/mutes.
  2. Riot should have more systems in place to facilitate social restrictions for the outliers.
  3. Muting players should be the go-to answer for dealing with toxic players, not reporting them.
  4. Mutes should be treated as report, but not necessarily as powerful as reports (sometimes you just don't want to see their messages, whether they are toxic or not.)

++++++

Gromlet-(ranked) I have been chat banned with the limited messages before. Not that I am proud but I learned a lesson from it. With that experience of being just chat restricted came to two distinct and immediate changes to game play and its effect upon it. One, I immediately noticed that having limited messages I was unable to communicate anything with my teammates to benefit our teamwork (ideas of engagements, tactics and objective priority). There just wasn't enough messages allotted to me so that I may collaborate. Two, I was unable to encourage my team. This one bugged me the most. When told I did good or my support said good job and I couldn't send a message. The times when your adc gets a kill with you and they get discouraged because they can praise you but you cant to them only 3 minutes later. I have even had teammates get frustrated with me because I wasn't responding to inquaries. So you know that, by simply putting a message limit on someone already has a diverse effect on the team and their ability to do what they are there to do in the first place, work as a team. By muting players and allowing them to enter ranked matches would create a disadvantage to your team from the start. Sure you can muster some words in at the champion select. But, as far as game-play goes, you cannot Mute or Permanently Mute a player in the game. This has to be one or two of the reasons why some, not all, of your ideas here may cause you to believe that its unpopular. Because it is demeaning to the League of Legends community.

I would like to see somewhat the opposite to what you are saying here. That repeated verbal abuse, harassment, hate speech, griefing and the like to be an account bannable offence. The idea coming from the same thought that society has on criminals. If you steal (verbally assault) someone, you are punished lightly at first but, will gradually become a jailable (bannable) offence. This type of system works in society and would work in this community. The fear of jail(being banned) simply stresses enough, in itself, to wean out the bad apples. length of ban would be the only issue here with this method. Everyone also knows that half the community has multiple accounts and even banning one account will only be encouragement for them to A)Fix their problem B)play the other account and get it banned to0 C)play that new account learning from the experience and never want to start a new account or mess up their main account ever again.

My 2 copper pieces.

kaimuh2/16/2016, 9:38:35 PM2 votes

I completely agree with this, I got a 25 game chat restriction for calling someone a moron who was trolling. Was only toxic in ONE game and got the restriction which means one more report and i get banned. That is crazy to me, meanwhile someone who intentionally trolls matches but doesn't say anything never gets punished. Or abuses the system......Funny how there is a mute button to stop people from talking yet they still get banned yet you could cheat, troll, or abuse system and NEVER get banned. Way to go Rito.

Astôlfo2/17/2016, 1:12:15 AM2 votes

So... The logic here is like an ostrich's. "If I don't see/hear/etc it, it doesn't exist." Sure, people can mute toxic people, but they shouldn't have to. It's a measure of self-control, it doesn't get rid of the problem itself.

For another analogy, it's like not watching the news so you can pretend crime doesn't exist because you would never hear about it. That doesn't fix the problem itself. Locking up the criminals does. In addition, it creates a communication issue by having said chat bans.

Obviously, if they're being toxic frequently in chats, they're not being very healthy to the game. So, what's wrong with them getting banned? They fully deserve it. They only make it worse for everyone.

So no, I don't agree with this, sorry.

MasterSomething2/17/2016, 2:26:24 AM2 votes

If I have to mute a player because he won't shut up about how bad of a player I am, I will report him. It's not so much I get offended, as it is annoying to deal with such a guy. I don't want to to play with annoying.

Weathered2/17/2016, 3:27:46 AM2 votes

Still kinda salty about the Alistar who followed me around in the jungle headbutting minions out of their pits to reset their leash meters. There is definitely ways to in game grief.

Edit: Read the rest of the post. Really good point. Only problem I see is that people who cant verbally take out their anger will eventually get frustrated enough and not have an outlet that they will do something else, like intentionally feed by running down into tower, or afk, or grief like the above mentioned. Still, really solid point that perma mutes should be more in order than bans.

ABlueQuaker2/22/2016, 5:08:46 AM2 votes

Allowing someone to continue to play and then restricting their ability to communicate only disadvantages the poor teammates that get matched with them. People are banned from the game in its entirety to clearly and definitively say 'being an asshat to your team is not acceptable in any way, shape or form'. At the end of the day, toxic or not, people want to play LoL. If you make it a standard that you can be a complete fucktard to your team and still be allowed to play the game, it's going to become a cesspool of toxic scumbags.

Wanna know what a toxic player does when they're muted? They turn to passive-aggression.

Its All Skillzz2/17/2016, 12:44:12 AM1 votes

This system is pretty awesome and youd be better at lytes job than himself, if the toxic players are mute. cause i know alot of ragers who are diamond level or higher an just cant understand why their teammates are so much more worst than the enemy/themselves. i am one of those diamond players i might give you shit but i know what im talking about. ive lost 2 accounts already to people trolling me on purpose an me being salty about it. it got so bad that i dragged the chat window completely off my screen so i cant see anything anyone says ever.

PROJECT CANCSUO2/22/2016, 5:01:18 AM1 votes

Nice post man. It is well written, and I 100% agree with what you have said. I never troll in-game, but I do get angry at others for when they troll me, or flame me for making a mistake. Simply banning players for these actions is not going to improve behavior in any sort of way. I was permanently banned, and of the 2 chat logs provided, one was insufficient(confirmed in a player support ticket by a riot member), but the other one was when i lashed out at someone in one bad statement, for stealing my jungle camps(literally sitting there and then using ability to take). Your idea is creative and i feel many others in the society would back it up, but heck, I doubt Riot will even swat an eye at this.

Dominick Destine2/23/2016, 4:48:41 AM1 votes

The flaw in your argument is that MOBAs nearly by definition are social games and require interaction to a level that, basically no other games do. Other games require coordination but only in MOBAs are factors such as precise communication about timing, position, cooldowns , enemy location and invisible items need to potentially be updated on a second by second basis (Ex: Enemy Ezreal ulting your low HP ally/"Veigar flash down 13:58"/etc.).

Basically if you can't socialize at all, you are putting your teammates at a disadvantage ... and that's even ignoring the negative social behavior, I am arguing for the extreme best case scenario of toxic players simply not being productive enough.... add any negative addition from their behavior and it's gg for you. Perma-ban(s) justified.

spirit cooking2/17/2016, 4:02:18 AM1 votes

They have data.

This is a key ratio to them:

How many banned people make new accounts, and how many just stop playing forever?

I'll bet 99% make new accounts and most of them spend money on those new accounts.

Riot can just perma chat ban can't they? No money in that.

lolptwo2/17/2016, 1:08:04 AM1 votes

This system makes sense, however I have a feeling the thing is Riot does not want these players playing their game. The harsh punishment of deleting their account is actually more of a realization punishment. The thing is many ppl have smurfs and 2nd accounts, how hard would it be to by pass your laws by me quickly jumping on a fresh acc, adding the person then talking shit to them. Boom I've just bypassed all my restrictions.

Also it would encourage trash talking to that level. The fear of losing your entire account actually shows. Listen if you act this way, We're going to take your account so stop now or else.

I like Riot's way better, and I have a Diamond 3, 2 million elophant score, all champs all runes permabanned account. I don't care about getting that acc back, I was toxic on it and deserved the punishment. Had they just permanently muted me, I don't think I ever would of reformed, I would of found more clever ways to insult people. That's the god honest truth.

Livin like Riven2/17/2016, 6:13:29 AM1 votes

I sometimes get a bit tilted and if I do, I mute people preemptively, just in case, so I can relax, calm myself a bit and give it another go. That'd be a report to people who haven't even done anything wrong. And personally, I get a bit more tilted in solo play than with friends. Assuming I'm not some freak statistical oddity, I'd say there are others in the same boat as me that would actually lash out at people and get muted. But I like playing with people who're upbeat and have a positive attitude, and it helps me stay the same way. So, suppose these others are muted and can't add these positive people who would otherwise deter their actions. That's just going to cause more problems than it fixes.

Mecha MaIphite2/17/2016, 1:22:16 AM1 votes

a lot of you played Runescape

buying gf 20k

Stephenizgod2/17/2016, 1:36:52 AM1 votes

I agree with most of what you said but I think the "mute=report" is not smart. Sometimes people mute to stop themselves from raging, sometimes people mute to avoid the distraction of a teammates whining/negativity/etc., sometimes people mute so they can focus better on their game rather than typing to teammates. Why shouldn't we report someone for being toxic? There're tons of reasons to mute but only 1 (valid) reason to report for toxicity and that is to get them punished for their bad behavior so they (hopefully) won't do it again.

Still I agree that Verbal toxicity should be met with Verbal restrictions ranging from Chat Restriction to Perma Muted, Gameplay toxicity should be met with Gameplay restrictions ranging from X Day Bans and Perma banned.

An exception should be Death Threats or telling someone to kill themselves, these should be immediately perma-banned. It is against the law to tell someone they should kill themselves or that you will kill them. It is not funny and it is not a joke, these kinds of comments are a serious offense and should be treated as such.