Boards›Player Behavior

Riot is the "Why" in Toxicity

Orgasmic Octopus··9 votes·2,279 views

My intentions of writing this is mainly to raise awareness of this topic and to hope that a Riot Inc. employee will see this and actually provide me with insightful information, although Riot Inc. probably won't give two shits because that's just how their reputation proceeds them. The classic, unprofessional “nope, you’re toxic” response comes to mind.

With that in mind I want to present to you my idea on why I believe that the permanent ban feature is not a justified punishment for solely toxic language. It is about as extreme as sentencing someone the death penalty for jaywalking. It is a punishment unrelated to the crime. I can understand if someone was permanently banned for cheating, but for talking smack I think is fairly childish on Riot's behalf. If you are going to deal with children, why not act a little more mature than the people you deal with instead of making irrational decisions -- such as Donald Trump.

In addition, your Instant Feedback System cannot accurately decide why a player should receive a chat-restriction or a perma-ban; this is because your system heavily relies on the quantitative feedback (much like the United States justice system in regards to private prisons) and cannot measure the qualitative aspects as to why the person may be using inappropriate language. That being said, if your team is antagonizing you in some way that frustrates you enough to begin using inappropriate language then you have essentially just sealed your own fate. This leaves you in a lose-lose situation.

Furthermore, with the introduction of the perm-ban feature you have emphasized the use of the report button, when there was already a simple solution which has been there for decades on every platform that has any type of online chat interactions, the mute button. So, why is it that in just the past few years Riot Inc. has deemed it worthy to implement a permanent ban feature? Either way it promotes trigger happy activity instead of establishing a more logical feature such as a permanent chat restriction. Now Riot Inc. has made it clear to us in the past that using chat is a privilege -- it is therefore not a core aspect of the game -- so why do they favor out-right bans for chat related behavior. The only reason why I think that Riot Inc. has insinuated this behavior is because that when someone makes a purchase with RP it is a one time purchase. If the person who was banned genuinely enjoys playing the game, then the odds of them making that purchase is relatively high. If this is not the case and they truly do care about the community, then they have proven my point further. With this new feature I have introduced (permanent chat-restrictions) there is no undesirable collateral damage for both parties; it solves the issue of toxicity while allowing the player to continue playing the game, and the victim of the 25 to life sentence (permanent chat restriction) still has the ability to make in-game purchases which still makes Riot Inc. happy economically speaking.

After writing this, I realize the deep flaws that exist in the current system, and the relatively simple solutions to fix them. I often hear from other players that playing League of Legends is a frustrating game – we should not be trying to compound this feeling any further

142 Comments

LostFr0st8 votes

Permamute won't do anything. It just hides the toxicity a bit. They will still find other ways to aggravate their teammates (spam pinging, following someone for no reason etc.) It will also further frustrate the person that's trying to vent since they seem to have no clue that what they're doing/saying is wrong.

Many people who play League aren't children, and even if they were they need to know that such action isn't acceptable in the real world.

Anyway, that's my p.o.v.

Rags 2 Legendary1 votes

{quoted}

Permamute won't do anything. It just hides the toxicity a bit. They will still find other ways to aggravate their teammates (spam pinging, following someone for no reason etc.) It will also further frustrate the person that's trying to vent since they seem to have no clue that what they're doing/saying is wrong.

Many people who play League aren't children, and even if they were they need to know that such action isn't acceptable in the real world.

Anyway, that's my p.o.v.

Permanently muting a player does not hide their toxicity by just a bit - it does so absolutely. If a player cannot express themselves and keeps getting frustrated, then they might just leave the game entirely. The cycle of recreating a new account after your other one was banned would cease to continue.

LostFr0st5 votes

Humans are resourceful creatures; if you think talking is the only way they can be toxic I think we should re-analyse the definition of toxic.
They usually get multiple warnings before a ban, so It's not like it's a big 'surprise' for the ones that get banned.

OP is suggesting that they not lose their accounts, so their monetary/time investment is still firmly attached.

Rags 2 Legendary1 votes

{quoted}

Humans are resourceful creatures; if you think talking is the only way they can be toxic I think we should re-analyse the definition of toxic.
They usually get multiple warnings before a ban, so It's not like it's a big 'surprise' for the ones that get banned.

OP is suggesting that they not lose their accounts, so their monetary/time investment is still firmly attached.

Humans are resourceful, but I don't think they have the capacity to shove their hand through their screen and slap you. Chat and pings are the ONLY available communications between players, and therefore, the only ways to be toxic. A chat restriction can absolutely remove their capability to wage toxicity. Trolling is different, at least in my opinion.

LostFr0st4 votes

Chat, pings, champ taunts, laugh, etc. can all be used in conjuction with in-game actions to give very clear communication to another player. They don't have to legit troll.

disregardable7 votes

So here's the thing. Fair is a really subjective and ultimately irrelevant concept to the punishment system. Basically, Riot is a company that is trying to make money, and they make less money when people dislike their game and quit. Toxic encounters in League make people dislike the game and quit. So it's only natural that Riot wants to try to remove the problem that's making people quit. Riot first tries to do so without making that player quit the game, but when that proves impossible the toxic player just need to be removed for the sake of the greater playerbase (and subsequently Riot's profits).

Orgasmic Octopus3 votes

I understand that as well, although if they use the permanent chat restriction feature I have presented they not only deal with the problem effectively but they don't get rid of any of the player base (while still using the quantitative ban system). Which therefore, gives the punished player the ability to continue in-game purchases if they so please.

disregardable6 votes

Except it doesn't. Because those people can still ping spam, and they can still troll their teams when they're angry. Lyte responded to this a long time ago saying exactly that. Chat removal has been tested internally, it doesn't work.

Rags 2 Legendary1 votes

{quoted}

Except it doesn't. Because those people can still ping spam, and they can still troll their teams when they're angry. Lyte responded to this a long time ago saying exactly that. Chat removal has been tested internally, it doesn't work.

I believe a simple solution would be to limit the amount of pings they can use. It would prohibit spam. A permanent ban could be considered if they still spam incessantly, but it shouldn't be considered for chat-related infractions. OR, use the mute button.

disregardable3 votes

And then they just figure out something else to do, which Riot would again have to react to in an endless cycle.

It's not impossible for them to do that. I'm not a Riot employee, I can't tell you why they don't put that effort into the game. They think that banning extremely problematic players (let's keep in mind here, only the bottom 0.2.% of the playerbase, the very worst players ever get banned) is more effective than just trying to manage them, so that's what they do.

Rags 2 Legendary3 votes

{quoted}

And then they just figure out something else to do, which Riot would again have to react to in an endless cycle.

It's not impossible for them to do that. I'm not a Riot employee, I can't tell you why they don't put that effort into the game. They think that banning extremely problematic players (let's keep in mind here, only the bottom 0.2.% of the playerbase, the very worst players ever get banned) is more effective than just trying to manage them, so that's what they do.

I disagree. Perma-bans are a temporary band-aid to the issue. It sets the "toxic" players back, but does not prohibit them from coming back whatsoever. If Riot is sincerely interested in putting a dent into toxic behavior, then they need to evaluate their game and its punishments. Chat restrictions make it impossible to be toxic. Trolling - through ping spams - is an entirely separate issue.

Astôlfo2 votes

And? It forces them to start over from scratch, which they will hate. That is the entire point. And if they continue to be toxic, they will simply get permanently banned again. Problem solved.

Rags 2 Legendary2 votes

{quoted}

And? It forces them to start over from scratch, which they will hate. That is the entire point. And if they continue to be toxic, they will simply get permanently banned again. Problem solved.

Not at all. You are simply sweeping the problem under the rug. You do not accomplish anything.

Astôlfo2 votes

No, it would be sweeping the problem into oblivion. I'm rather sure they would get tired of repeatedly being banned over and over and eventually they'll drop it. Therefore, it does accomplish the solution - cleaning up the trash.

Orgasmic Octopus1 votes

For having 30 million players log in daily this is a breeding ground for trolls, I think it's rather inelastic for these people.

Astôlfo2 votes

There will always be toxic people. How does one get rid of them? One by one.

Orgasmic Octopus2 votes

Did you even notice the cyclic nature in your comment, or are you just that oblivious?

Astôlfo2 votes

Do you ever try to make any reasonable arguments, or are you just that ignorant?

Rags 2 Legendary2 votes

{quoted}

Do you ever try to make any reasonable arguments, or are you just that ignorant?

To understand a reasonable argument, you first have to be a rational human being, which I do not think you are - based on your one-lined responses throughout this forum. You seem to have the attention span of little more than a goldfish, and an IQ similar to one as well.

Astôlfo2 votes

The thread creator's ""argument"" is that toxic players should be allowed to continue playing, just without chatting. That should not happen. If they are toxic, they deserve to be forced to stop playing. If they make a new account, so be it, they will get banned again soon enough. Nice attempt at baseless insults. Go educate yourself please.

Rags 2 Legendary2 votes

{quoted}

The thread creator's ""argument"" is that toxic players should be allowed to continue playing, just without chatting. That should not happen. If they are toxic, they deserve to be forced to stop playing. If they make a new account, so be it, they will get banned again soon enough. Nice attempt at baseless insults. Go educate yourself please.

How does that make any sense? The punishment is unrelated to the offense. For example, if you hit a car while driving - your driving privileges can be suspended. However, unless you hurt someone or DUI, you likely will not be going to prison.

And why would I go educate myself? You seem to be teaching me quite nicely here.

SmokedAlmonds2 votes

They are diminishing the game for others. Removing them is a completely related punishment.

Astôlfo2 votes

Uh, a better analogy would be killing someone intentionally with a car. You would go to jail, as per the crime. But, you will also almost certainly have your car taken away as well. I guess I'm a good teacher :P

R4v1nc31 votes

Yeah I don't think they see the disconnect between "Trolling" and "Toxic chat". Even then with all these analogies, there are still checks and balances. You go to court, you are assessed by a human being, you are delivered justice based on the written law (unlike riot's "don't be a jerk" vague interpretation).

Astôlfo3 votes

Or, they could just be permanently banned, like it does now, and works perfectly fine. Oh look, problem solved. The mute button isn't an excuse to be an ass.

Orgasmic Octopus2 votes

So here's the thing, as I mentioned in the first sentence of the first paragraph I said, "the permanent ban feature is not a justified punishment for solely toxic language." Keyword there being, 'SOLELY.' As you are talking about trolling, which is another huge topic. And as to talk about ping spam, turning the volume down or even off is not that difficult either.

disregardable4 votes

I doubt a person exists that got permanently banned that displayed no other negative behaviors. All you see is the text in their reform cards, but that doesn't mean that's all they did. And it only gets worse when you take away the primary means they express themselves.

Orgasmic Octopus3 votes

Look, by implementing the permanent chat restriction feature it would be able to successfully dichotomize the players into two categories: the people who are cursing out their team mates as a coping mechanism for frustration and the people who are trolling looking for reactions. When someone who is coping gets perma-chat restricted the odds of them become a professional troll are slim to none. This will be an effective tool to identify the people who are actually trolling and finally won't go unpunished.

SmokedAlmonds4 votes

There is some truth to that, but accomplishing it wouldn't be without cost. The toxicity is already a problem. So you are giving people more chances to be worse all so you can allow some people who are merely less of a problem continue playing. All of this is at the expense of the rest of the player base. Not worth it IMO.

Orgasmic Octopus2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Orgasmic Octopus,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=8sPjdaFQ,comment-id=000300010000000100000000,timestamp=2016-03-18T22:12:51.645+0000)

Look, by implementing the permanent chat restriction feature it would be able to successfully dichotomize the players into two categories: the people who are cursing out their team mates as a coping mechanism for frustration and the people who are trolling looking for reactions. When someone who is coping gets perma-chat restricted the odds of them become a professional troll are slim to none. This will be an effective tool to identify the people who are actually trolling and finally won't go unpunished.

Astôlfo3 votes

No, it won't be effective, because those toxic players will continue to troll. And for them to need a permanent any kind of punishment in the first place means they do not deserve to play anymore.

Orgasmic Octopus2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Orgasmic Octopus,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=8sPjdaFQ,comment-id=000300010000000100000000,timestamp=2016-03-18T22:12:51.645+0000)

Look, by implementing the permanent chat restriction feature it would be able to successfully dichotomize the players into two categories: the people who are cursing out their team mates as a coping mechanism for frustration and the people who are trolling looking for reactions. When someone who is coping gets perma-chat restricted the odds of them become a professional troll are slim to none. This will be an effective tool to identify the people who are actually trolling and finally won't go unpunished.

Astôlfo2 votes

Oh look, I can do that too. presses CTRL-C + CTRL-V

{quoted}

No, it won't be effective, because those toxic players will continue to troll. And for them to need a permanent any kind of punishment in the first place means they do not deserve to play anymore.

Astôlfo2 votes

And you would be incorrect. Permanent bans are fully justified for solely toxic language.

Orgasmic Octopus1 votes

Do you ever provide any claims to your assertions, or do you just like to see your name on the thread?

Astôlfo2 votes

Do you ever use any valid logic, or do you just like to hope you'll be safe when you'll be permabanned (unless you already are)?

SmokedAlmonds5 votes

We had this before. Up until last August, chat restrictions would just continue to stack indefinitely. What they found was that those players often would just troll instead of being toxic in chat(since they couldn't).

Orgasmic Octopus2 votes

So, why is it that more people are banned for toxicity than people who are caught for trolling? These are two totally separate topics that I don't think you are grasping.

SmokedAlmonds5 votes

For starters, It is a far more common problem. Just on that, it basically automatically becomes the most punished infraction. That is like asking why more people get speeding tickets then arrested for murder.

Chat issues are also a lot easier to catch. Logging and parsing chat already existed. Chat offense are like smiling for a security camera while committing a crime. Trolling is much harder to definitively detect. Chat is largely handled by an automated system and trolling most of the time requires manual reviews.

Orgasmic Octopus2 votes

And that's the issue with the community. It's easier to just checkmark the box that is chat related and let the automated system deal with it, then actually providing Riot with a detailed reason as to why the person should be punished. Riot knows the how, when, where, who, but they don't know the why, which is exectly what I am trying to address here with this thread.

SmokedAlmonds4 votes

What can riot do about people diving into the mud with the trolls instead of spending 15 seconds to give a description of their behavior in a report? People just constantly choose to become a part of the problem instead of helping riot deal with the troll.

Orgasmic Octopus1 votes

And you, my fellow friend, have just proven my point further.

Astôlfo3 votes

And you have no valid point, so try again.

Orgasmic Octopus1 votes

{quoted}

And you have no valid point, so try again.

You are probably the guy who says "reported" in all chat, at the slightest bit of any confrontation.

Astôlfo4 votes

Nice attempt to make an assumption of someone you know nothing about. Incorrect, by the way. I am the person who's intelligent enough to simply mute them then report at end-game.

R4v1nc31 votes

They could remove reporting from the game entirely, and move it onto the website like support tickets. Require detailed information to be submitted. (imo)This will cut down on the people who are just reporting because it's easy and the button is within reach. More serious cases will be put in by people motivated enough by the negative actions to pursue a true remedy.

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

I don't really think that would gain anything. The people who are giving quality reports with good descriptions are already doing it. If someone wasn't willing to just take 15 seconds to describe what happened in the in client reporting they definitely aren't going to go to the website to do it.

Is reporting someone because the button is there even a problem? If the person hadn't done something riot wanted to punish then the report is going to be discarded anyway.

Making reporting harder would increase the percentage of reports that are quality but would MASSIVELY reduce reporting overall and probably reduce the quantity of quality reports as well.

Orgasmic Octopus2 votes

He's not saying that should be the solution, rather he is pointing out that the community of players prefer convenience than actually creating an incentivized report.

cuddlykitten46 votes

It's because trolling in chat is the easiest way to do it. Regardless of what else they do, almost all trolls will be present in the chat logs because they won't be able to resist. They are the same topic. What happened? Mad cause you got chat banned or something? Also, here is the magical answer to how to solve the issue of trolls in your game......stop playing League. Anywhere there is a large group of people, there will be assholes who will figure out a way around every way you figure out to stop them. If you can't handle people like that then you need to just remove yourself because they won't remove themselves and any attempt to stop them will be temporary at best. Otherwise, you're stuck here with them.

Orgasmic Octopus1 votes

Wait, your grand idea is to just stop playing LoL? If everyone were to follow that advice and just stop playing I wonder how much their fan base would drop...

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