Discussion: Pre and In Game Trolling

Imperial Pandaa·2/17/2019, 7:56:03 PM·8 votes·5,741 views

Prelude this with a request that everyone who chooses to participate, please keep it civil. Attack the points, not the person.

The main reference point I may use will be the recent banning of a player who went Rengar top with cleanse/ghost. This post isn't necessarily about that specific case, but it is recent and easy to use as an example.


Bans, hovers, and picks, oh my:

  1. Bans come before picks. Therefore you can ban whatever. Yes, it might be a dick move; but it isn't technically against the rules. It could count against you in a manual review though.
  2. Pick Order still is a thing. If top wants Sion (and has been hovering it since beginning), but I want Sion as support (not hovered at all); I can take him as support if my pick priority is before top. Again, a dick move, but not against the rules. It could still count against in a manual review though.

Abra Kadabra Alakazam! (Summoner Spells):

As a player, you can theoritically take any combination of summoner spells and potentially find success. There have been certain ones that have become a staple in being norm though. Typically you see every champ rock Flash. However, there have been and are still cases when this is true. Shaco as an example may take smite and ignite when jg. No combination is strictly forbidden.

Doesn't mean some combinations are free from infamy though. Cleanse with Ghost is nicknamed (I believe) Disco when paired together. Does that mean every circumstance with this combination means troll? Not at all. If you have never used that combination before for a certain champion, it might look suspicious though. Swapping immediately to an unusually combination without knowing enemy team comp also may raise a flag.


Lack of Communication:

Should you be forced to communicate with your team? Yes and no. If you are going to do something unusual, it is important that your team understands what it is and why you are doing it. This actually can be talen back to the Smite Support Singed case. It wasn't so much for the strategy that he got punished, but more for not communicating what was going on. There is a difference in talking with people and talking at people.


Giving up with mindless pushing:

This is probably the main in game one that people debate about a fair bit. If someone has given up and just begins to afk farm/push. Not warding or caring if they get caught out. They are still playing the game, and pushing might get the win. This also can come up in open situations. If your team opens mid and you simply go to a lane to push to avoid afk, is one trolling?

These are mainly my thoughts and opinions on the matter. Care to share yours?

33 Comments

Umbral Regent2/17/2019, 8:43:29 PM5 votes

I'm gonna discuss the points present as-listed, since I can't fathom any particular order would really be beneficial.


In regards to Pre-Game stuff (Pick intent, bans, and lock-ins), the more that I think about it in regards to cases of trolling (or even unfortunate coincidences), the more I realize that it comes close to the argument we use warning players against playing Blind pick if at all possible. Which is to say, Blind pick has no real system set up for Champ Select, and everything - from the team comp to what lane/role you get - is up to player courtesy, and nothing is regarded as a given right.

To the same end, Draft Pick narrows down those problems into something with a bit more specificity - you may now be able to get roles more reliably, as the matchmaking system tracks the position it queues you into and, consequently, role theft can be punished since it is now more of a right than a courtesy, but the problems pertaining to Champion picks and composition are still present, if not exacerbated by the systems surrounding it.

Being able to play a certain specific Champion is still a courtesy - one more readily offered by the community, for various reasons - but with ten bans distributed amongst all players, it is wholly possible that you still won't get to play your pick intent - the enemy could ban them, your allies could ban them, etc.

And while pick order provides a layer of strategy to pre-game, it also presents another problem reinforcing the "pick as courtesy" problem. As you said - if you and your top laner both want to play Sion, but you're first pick, who gets to play Sion is up to the courtesy - do you reserve it for yourself, or allow the top laner to claim it?

In my opinion, though, it may ultimately be a necessary evil. Fixing one problem could just lead to a few more cropping up, and some problems, no matter how they're addressed, may not be able to be fixed. I mean, we've all seen the argument against intent > bans - a troll could hover the FoTM OP new Champ and let the enemy first pick it, for example.


Summoner Spells are something that, IMO, should be looked at on a case-by-case basis, since, as stated, there's no inherent rule preventing specific Summoner Spell combinations from being used, but there will always be a layer of skepticism surrounding them as well, primarily due to the "Disco" combination.

Likewise, while Flash is a ubiquitous Summoner Spell choice, there will always be room for some Summoner Spells to take its place in builds. I've seen Darius players running Ghost+Teleport, Ghost itself tends to be a staple for Singed players, and Supports and Bottom Laners can flex out their spell choice pretty wildly, even beyond the typical fare of Flash+Heal and Flash+Exhaust/Ignite.


Communication, particularly for off-meta stuff, should definitely be closer to standard. I'm totally for new and unique strategies (Ezreal Support, for example), and I'll even begrudge those that I don't understand and wouldn't actually want to see (Deathsiege Sion), but the biggest thing that needs to become standard for breaking the meta is letting your team know that you're going to do something unusual.

And, to that end, communication is a two-way deal. Personally, I think there's room for forgiveness for just saying what you're doing if your unusual strategy is limited to how you play your given Champion (Like taking Hail of Blades on Darius, or Predator on Kai'Sa, or anything else like that), but if you're really gonna go out there with an off-meta pick, especially one that demands a special strategy built around it, you need to communicate with your team, and either see if they're good to work with it, or play something more meta if they aren't.

'Cause, remember, Singed Support wasn't banned due to their strategy, but due to their adamant insistence that they play it and the team adapts to their needs, and not the other way around. Communication and teamwork is a two-way street. Work with your team, not against them.


And, lastly, in regards to split-pushing, it's something that I would say that, like Summoner Spells, should be looked at on a case-by-case basis. There are some Champions that are fit (and even purpose-built) to split-push, but, while the point can be made that their win condition is the split-pushing, it should also be noted that that win condition may not align with the rest of the team's, or even with the current gamestate.

If the entire team is pushing the middle Inhibitor Turret, for example, it's not even remotely close to sound reasoning to prioritize the top lane inner turret over protecting base.

In the case of teammates opening lanes, I think that the remaining players should at least try to flex into the open lanes and defend as normal, though far be it from me to dictate the standard for niche cases like that.


For the most part, those are my thoughts & opinions on the presented matters. One other thing worth mentioning (since my talking about the pre-game lobby was primarily systems-related), is that I feel that pre-game lobby behavior should definitely remain a subject for manual review, though I'm unsure to what extent I would consider acceptable.

I suppose I can put it like this; I would definitely love to see troll behavior in pre-game lobby (malicious bans, pick-stealing, etc.) consistently punished, though in the same turn, I definitely wouldn't want to see my brother punished for his decision to always ban Yasuo - he doesn't do it to spite teammates, of course, but I wouldn't want his match security to be misconstrued for trolling.

And, of course, curse you Pandaa for getting to this topic before I did.

TrulyBland2/17/2019, 8:25:14 PM3 votes

The problem at its core is that proving that somebody wanted to troll hinges entirely on "proving" intention. And outside of admission in chat (which could technically be argued to be a joke) there simply is no conclusive evidence that you can find to prove intention.

All you have if you want to ban somebody for trolling is circumstantial evidence. As such you ultimately have two fundamental choices:

  1. You decide to not troll banning in any scenario unless people admit to it.
  2. You decide that once it is no longer plausible* that the player had no intention of screwing over his teammates you punish them.

So yeah… that asterisk. "Plausible" is clearly a very subjective word. So whatever you do at this point, the decision of whether something is "plausible" will have to be pretty much arbitrary. Sure, the current case has no precedent, and that is always a bit scary when it comes to rules that are ultimately so subjective… but it's not inherently more or less problematic than other bans for trolling.

We will never have a ruleset where we can be sure Riot will always make the right call. So even if it's uncomfortable that Riot should punish people based on pregame based choices I think we can't really argue about a general case. We can only talk about this case in particular… and in that specific case I think Riot made the right decision.

ChaosReyn2/18/2019, 1:59:53 AM3 votes

**Disclaimer: I am by no means calling out any particular player or rank, and I mean absolutely no shade in any of this...I just feel it's relevant to the discussion, and I apologize in advance if this comes off as perhaps overly critical to some people. Then again, I am greatly generalizing this, so I really do hope that nobody finds it offensive. >.> **

I think imo, I'll agree with most of Regent's points. I will, however, stress that a lot of players, especially in ranked and even more especially in mid-level ranked (high silver - high plat is what I consider mid-level when I say this) are generally not going to ever be ok with something that's too far off the meta. I'll catch hell for the call-out, but I do have a valid reasoning to this: mid-level is arguably the area where people push themselves the hardest. Obviously, the players in high level play are all very skilled players who earned their place from all the effort and time they put into it...what I mean by pushing themselves is sort of in three sub-categories:

  • They're the most passionate about ranking up. High level players are up there, and they know they belong there...sure, they want to get to challenger, but making diamond is a high accomplishment and most players that hit diamond really aren't going to be that upset that they couldn't quite reach master. On the flip side, lower level players mostly know they belong there, or that they could do better with practice (or better internet...surprising how often that one comes up) and a lot of them often take long break periods from ranked to practice more, contrary to a lot of the people's perceptions of how all of them are salty, garbage players, which is both untrue and rather demeaning. But mid level players mostly all are trying to get to that higher level spot. They know they can reach it. They're GOING to reach it...and then they end up getting their main permabanned from being far too passionate in a negative way. Which brings me to my next more unfortunate point:

  • Mid-level players can get straight up toxic. Not all of them, mind you...but its just as I said, they're passionate. And unfortunately, there's more than one way to be passionate about something. Even some of the pro players and higher level youtubers/streamers have been on record saying the rank they're most afraid of is plat...specifically low plat. I could find links and all, but honestly, there are enough youtube videos on "the issues each rank has in LoL" you can just look that up and find that like 7/10 all say what essentially boils down to "plat needs to remember that it's a team game, and treat people better than they treat their egos." This is the part the disclaimer was for, js. I'm not hating on plat, yall are great players. But even you guys will have to admit, when you see more toxic behavior from your team or from the enemy team in your low plat games, it's on a level far greater than it needs to be. Same with gold and silver - people want to win, almost more than they want to enjoy the game. I guess I should more fairly and accurately state it as believing that winning is fun and that not winning is a waste of valuable time and LP...they really don't joke around. And their reasoning is my last point:

  • To mid-level players, the meta is law. they're FotM capitol of the whole game, hands down. "These youtubers and the pros in the LCS did ______, _______, and _______ and it looked really busted, so obviously that's what we should do." "The Koreans are using this strategy, so it must be op." Obviously again, this is sort of generalizing...but I speak from far more than simple experience when I say that every time I have ever played Middlesticks in silver, it's been largely met with distrust, mockery, and sometimes straight up hate. Especially by my jungler...I'm not going into game-relations with how my games go, those aren't relevant to my point. Point is, Middlesticks (and really Fiddlesticks in general) isn't really meta. And when you play something not meta, there's already a sort of trust barrier established. They want to win, and they know to fill in the blanks to get there. Obviously, I'm also no OTP Fiddle main...so the games are usually pretty average, with me being hard pressed to do much if I go in without my ult. The early-to-mid game's the most valuable 5-10 minutes of trying to get your teammates (historically this is especially true with your jungler, if that isn't you) to trust you enough to fight with you. If you're 0/2 Middlesticks at 10 minutes in, a lot of times someone on your team has probably already posted "gg Middlesticks report and ff 15."

Obvously, 0/2 that early in is no reason to report, or to ff 15...this is a lot different from the case of "Disco" on a champion. Personally, I could see cleanse/ghost working on maybe two champions, both of which are not really considered meta themselves anymore: Singed (specifically Proxy Singed, who could use cleanse to break cc and further guarantee his escape) and Tahm Kench (specifically PhaseRush Kench, for his abduction strategy essentially requiring he make his escape with the kidnapped target). If I were personally see Disco on either of those two champions...I'd still be worried. Pretty sure Skarner or Udyr could do it too, but that would mean they wouldn't be in the jungle, which would worry me even more. That's what I mean by meta warping people's perceptions of what's possible.

I do agree: these things are not against the rules...taking a certain champ in an off meta lane isn't against the rules...pre-game banning a teammate's champion isn't against the rules...Disco isn't even against the rules. But in a manual review, it'd still be abundantly clear who was trying something extremely quirky vs straight trolling in almost all cases. However, particularly in mid-level ranks, this may not always be viewed as the case since to them, the meta is what works and everything else is something they don't understand or don't believe in...which immediately has it labeled as troll. Communication might help...but even then, it's not guaranteed.

Ambitious Minnow2/18/2019, 1:35:05 AM2 votes

Pre-game trolling could be easily fixed, and is a real problem sometimes. The ezpz solution is a dodge button with a report mechanism. If you willing to dodge to leave a report on that short amount of time, it should be recorded against the reported player's profile. Then little nastys that try to force dodge you with troll picks just couldn't did it anymore. EZ.PZ.

PresBushDid7112/17/2019, 10:15:35 PM2 votes

I think the best way to do this is to break it down step by step with a brief explanation and hopefully people will see what I and others are worried about concerning the precedent Riot has set with this case.

Pre game steps

  1. Hovers happen, enter ban phase Our previous understanding, it is not punishable to ban hovers i.e. Ban trumps pick
  2. Both teams bans are revealed, teams enter pick phase. Our previous understanding, it is not punishable to "take" someone's pick i.e. pick order trumps hover
  3. Final countdown begins, sums and runes become locked at zero. Previous understanding, no combination of rune page/sums has ever been punished simply for picking them.

Game Starts

Summoners are expected to play to the best of their abilities until the nexus explodes through dmg or surrender vote.

Summoners are expected to play their assigned positions, or if trades were done pregame, the traded positions.

Summoners are expected to communicate their off meta lane tactics to team in pregame. These are included but not limited to counter jungle support, double top, double jungle, int sion.

Now on to the problem case and why it is a problem.

  1. All of the pregame actions were unpunishable as we have understood then and as supported by Riot i.e. we haven't seen a case where people were suspended for any of those actions on their own.

  2. All of the in game actions mirror the exact advice we give to people on these boards. A. If you have an afk, or three, you still play it out. You don't run it down mid, dance in fountain, etc. B. You don't flame your teammates, if you feel their actions are punishable you report after game.

The reason it seems so simple to declare intent and thus punishment is that in every other case we've seen there was gameplay trolling that confirmed the pregame trolling. Example: Disco nunu wasn't punished due to pregame sum choices, it was the act of using these sums to create a disco show in game while inting Example: Banning someone's pick and then choosing Anivia suppot wasn't punishable, it was the act of using troll walls.

scottca2/18/2019, 5:02:16 AM2 votes

I want to believe we can choose any hero, spell, rune, icon, skin, or emote we would like to use.

I want to believe its that simple.

Boltonator2/17/2019, 8:25:54 PM2 votes

If you want my honest opinion on the whole issue it’s this...

Just don’t do ranked if you can help it and, if you’re going to do normals, do it with a friend so you have someone to talk shit with if/when the inevitable trolls make their appearance.

That or do Co-op, where the AI actually congratulates you for kicking their teeth in.

spirit cooking2/18/2019, 3:46:16 PM1 votes

Its not as easy as choosing whatever you want to play, and playing it out.

When you choose a champion/hero and summoner spells you are doing so at your own risk.

Also, when you give Riot money, they can take your purchases away for any or no reason at all. Its in the TOS, any or no reason.

You can actually be banned for picking Rengar top lane with ghost and saying dance mid. Yes, that's all it takes.

Midg3t2/17/2019, 11:03:22 PM1 votes

So if I understood correctly, people can troll by banning/locking in their teammate's picks, and as long as they don't say anything it won't be considered as trolling? I mean, how else would Riot find out that some1 is using it with the intention of griefing if there is no chat evidence?

If that's the case that's pretty fucked up and easly abusable imo.