Flame vs Opinion You Disagree With

ofart·Jun 11, 2016·15 votes·2,044 views

I've gotten reported for telling my jungler that he should have helped me push after my laner was forced back from a gank (and I pinged to push as well) because it would reset the wave and let me back faster so I won't miss CS while also making them miss CS. There was no insult or anything passive aggressive. Likewise, I've been accused of flaming for saying that the jungler should focus the mid Vel'Koz shoving me under turret without flash or ult. instead of going for the Gnar who has escapes and summoners as well as less carry potential. Again, no disrespect, just good advice imo based on the game state.

I haven't actually been punished yet but I think it's worrying and rather pathetic that people report just if you give advice or they disagree with you. There's a big difference between flaming and defending an opinion or giving feedback to hopefully have the team adapt and win the game.

35 Comments

AraMoOseJun 11, 20167 votes

Of course I can't see how you tell your jungler he should have ganked for you, but I can say the following:

It is not impossible that you are being a bit too rude and entitled when you say this.
Most people will interpret this kind of comment as a way for you to deny your own part in the situation (not incorrectly in my opinion).
Most people will channel their irritation at this kind of criticism by dismissing you as a whiner.
It is highly likely that the person will then help you even less out of irritation.
It is not the jungler's job to win your lane for you anyways.

In light of all these things, It is almost never a productive approach to blame other people and will likely cause a climate of negativity in your team, which is counter productive. It's really not worth your time and not worth the risk of receiving a report. Take it on the chin and keep doing your best to win.

I hope this was helpful.

disregardableJun 11, 20163 votes

It is almost never a productive approach to blame other people and will likely cause a climate of negativity in your team, which is counter productive. It's really not worth your time and not worth the risk of receiving a report. Take it on the chin and keep doing your best to win.

OP, I think that part is the important part. Less blaming, more positive communication. :)

atomicwitJun 11, 201610 votes

{quoted}

OP, I think that part is the important part. Less blaming, more positive communication. :)

Are you legit trolling him or just didn't read?

disregardableJun 11, 20164 votes

Neither. If you don't want reported, you should avoid saying things that offend people, like telling them they did something badly. It's just a fact.

lolptwoJun 11, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Of course I can't see how you tell your jungler he should have ganked for you, but I can say the following:

It is not impossible that you are being a bit too rude and entitled when you say this.

Most people will interpret this kind of comment as a way for you to deny your own part in the situation (not incorrectly in my opinion).

Most people will channel their irritation at this kind of criticism by dismissing you as a whiner.

It is highly likely that the person will then help you even less out of irritation.

It is not the jungler's job to win your lane for you anyways.

In light of all these things, It is almost never a productive approach to blame other people and will likely cause a climate of negativity in your team, which is counter productive. It's really not worth your time and not worth the risk of receiving a report. Take it on the chin and keep doing your best to win.

I hope this was helpful.

If that's really the case, then it sounds like most of the time i'm dealing with sensitive little teenagers who cannot see past their own hubris to understand that people are trying to win a fucking game, not be their friend for a game.

I agree 100% with the OP when I used to play, but honestly, you're right most people act that way in League. That's why I'm glad I quit this garbage community.

AraMoOseJun 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

If that's really the case, then it sounds like most of the time i'm dealing with sensitive little teenagers who cannot see past their own hubris to understand that people are trying to win a fucking game, not be their friend for a game.

I agree 100% with the OP when I used to play, but honestly, you're right most people act that way in League. That's why I'm glad I quit this garbage community.

Sorry man, you're simply not worth my time, you are exactly what you accuse others of being. I'm glad you've decided to stop playing, it seems we both get what we want out of it. Have a nice day.

lolptwoJun 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Sorry man, you're simply not worth my time, you are exactly what you accuse others of being. I'm glad you've decided to stop playing, it seems we both get what we want out of it. Have a nice day.

No i'm not actually, that's why I attained Diamond 3, because unlike the 90% of this community who are stuck in Silver and Below. I can put aside my "pride" online in a video game and try to win without getting emotionally upset when someone tries to tell me how things actually are. I have the common sense to double think what I'm doing, not get upset like a whiny little bitch. Then subsequently dwarf my own skills thinking I am the all omniscient knowing player in Silver, like many Silvers are.

The way I got to the top 2% of League players is by constantly learning from better players, constantly admitting i'm wrong and taking criticism like an adult, and not being passive aggressive and avoiding people who hurt my feelings like a fucking 2 year old.

ofartJun 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

No i'm not actually, that's why I attained Diamond 3, because unlike the 90% of this community who are stuck in Silver and Below. I can put aside my "pride" online in a video game and try to win without getting emotionally upset when someone tries to tell me how things actually are. I have the common sense to double think what I'm doing, not get upset like a whiny little bitch. Then subsequently dwarf my own skills thinking I am the all omniscient knowing player in Silver, like many Silvers are.

The way I got to the top 2% of League players is by constantly learning from better players, constantly admitting i'm wrong and taking criticism like an adult, and not being passive aggressive and avoiding people who hurt my feelings like a fucking 2 year old.

I agree with you but 90% of the community isn't Silver and below. It's probably true for Gold and below though. Also, D3 is a lot higher than top 2%. :D It's more like top .025%. I guess it's less meaningful now with Dynamic Queue but this was the case last season.

iisabrinaJun 12, 20161 votes

I agree with everything AEGEONTheDragon has said. Yesterday, on forums, I got my account banned for 7 days, it started with a 1 day ban and went to a 7 day ban because league legends has a bunch of buttwipes moderating these forums. (For the same comment too).

What was the reason? I told a bronze kid to sit down, stop arguing with me, youre too bronze for me.

First, its disgusting the kid reported me for that. Is he that much of a safe space sheltered butthurt kid that he cant be called bronze?

Second, The league of legends moderators banned me for 1 day for that, saying we dont tolerate harassment of other players, and then a few hours later, same comment , we escalated this to a 7 day ban. I cant even respond to these posting restrictions. The community here is disgusting, and even more so when you see some of these folks in person. Its why I use the game with everyone on chat muted 24/7.

AraMoOseJun 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

No i'm not actually, that's why I attained Diamond 3, because unlike the 90% of this community who are stuck in Silver and Below. I can put aside my "pride" online in a video game and try to win without getting emotionally upset when someone tries to tell me how things actually are. I have the common sense to double think what I'm doing, not get upset like a whiny little bitch. Then subsequently dwarf my own skills thinking I am the all omniscient knowing player in Silver, like many Silvers are.

The way I got to the top 2% of League players is by constantly learning from better players, constantly admitting i'm wrong and taking criticism like an adult, and not being passive aggressive and avoiding people who hurt my feelings like a fucking 2 year old.

Like I said, not worth my time.

Have a nice day.

ofartJun 11, 20166 votes

I was not rude as I stated. I gave the facts and good advice. It wasn't even whining. Your post feels almost like something someone copy pastes in response to similar threads.

Number 5 is just completely silly and has nothing to do with the post. It could almost be a meme at this point given how frequently it's misused. I main jg and I know what a jg's job is. It varies on the jungler but the main idea is to apply map pressure where it's most likely to yield a reward while also farming as efficiently as possible. Map pressure doesn't even have to be a gank. It could be counterganking, counterjungling, warding well, etc. To say that the jungler should focus the overextended and squishy Vel'Koz with no summoners over a tanky Gnar with escapes as well as summoners isn't whining or asking the jg to win the lane for me. It's just intelligent play exploiting the game state and the weaknesses in a champion's kit.

Your comments are almost as bad as the people who report others for daring to give them advice and suggesting a strategy that fits the game. You're lumping what I wrote into the "blames others" "negative" "thinks jg should win lane for him" nonsense. It feels as if you either didn't read the post at all or failed to comprehend it and it baffles me as to why you'd even bother to respond in that case. Offering advice, while usually in light of something that went suboptimally, falls in neither of those categories. First of all, blaming people isn't even some great crime and any sort of advice indirectly assumes some blame for whoever failed to follow it. That isn't what the problem is and obviously people are always to blame for something since no one's playing perfectly. The issue is when the blaming part is emphasized over the solution. For example, instead of saying, "you should have helped me push the wave when my laner's forced back from the gank and I have no mana or ward coverage" someone who is blaming others unfairly and focusing on the blame aspect would type "it's your fault that I missed the next wave and now he has a cs lead." This isn't a productive comment. As far as negative, again any sort of communication other than "we did everything perfectly" can be misconstrued as negative. I consider negativity as an unrealistically dark assessment focusing on the emotional state rather than reality and improvement. For example "gg Twitch got first blood, game's over" falls into negative. "we're down 3 inhibitors and have no objectives so we should probably ff" is not negative. It is simply a logical opinion. Blaming the jungler and thinking it's their responsibility to win lane would likely produce comments like "wow, jg can't gank and I'm behind" when their jungler is providing good pressure elsewhere or securing objectives and the enemy laner of said person is mobile like a LB. It's even sillier when comments like that are made for a lane that was simply 1v1 the entire game.

archerno1Jun 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I was not rude as I stated. I gave the facts and good advice. It wasn't even whining. Your post feels almost like something someone copy pastes in response to similar threads.

Did he ask you for advice? Because giving advice to equals without being asked for one is considered rude.

SirPurrrJun 11, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Did he ask you for advice? Because giving advice to equals without being asked for one is considered rude.

You're basically saying to avoid communicating in a team game because someone with mental issues can't handle any sort of feedback other than "you did great!!! gj!!! wp! perfect!".

archerno1Jun 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You're basically saying to avoid communicating in a team game because someone with mental issues can't handle any sort of feedback other than "you did great!!! gj!!! wp! perfect!".

Im basically saying to let others play however they want and to stop trying to tell others what to do. People react and play better if left alone than if there is some rager on their case.

ofartJun 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Im basically saying to let others play however they want and to stop trying to tell others what to do. People react and play better if left alone than if there is some rager on their case.

Being given advice isn't the same as raging. You're basically a case study for the OP.

ofartJun 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Did he ask you for advice? Because giving advice to equals without being asked for one is considered rude.

That's true when you go up to someone at a supermarket and start offering unsolicited advice. It isn't true in a team game which relies on communication and adaptation.

archerno1Jun 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

That's true when you go up to someone at a supermarket and start offering unsolicited advice. It isn't true in a team game which relies on communication and adaptation.

Noone likes being told how to play video game. And its same in video game as in "supermarket case". If person asks u for advice, give it to him. If he doesnt, shut your mouth. He will play much worse if u start telling him what to do.

ofartJun 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Noone likes being told how to play video game. And its same in video game as in "supermarket case". If person asks u for advice, give it to him. If he doesnt, shut your mouth. He will play much worse if u start telling him what to do.

It's not the same at all. You're not expected to work together or strategize with a random person at a supermarket and they won't impede your goals either. There is no expectation so providing unsolicited advice to them comes across as arrogant and overbearing. In a game like this, everyone has to coordinate and understand the optimal way to win in order to make it happen. I think it's every player's duty to try and make that a reality (without being mean of course).

archerno1Jun 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It's not the same at all. You're not expected to work together or strategize with a random person at a supermarket and they won't impede your goals either. There is no expectation so providing unsolicited advice to them comes across as arrogant and overbearing. In a game like this, everyone has to coordinate and understand the optimal way to win in order to make it happen. I think it's every player's duty to try and make that a reality (without being mean of course).

Except. Not everyones highest priority is win.

ofartJun 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Except. Not everyones highest priority is win.

So we shouldn't try to give our team the best chance to win a ranked game because some people with serious mental issues might have a mental breakdown and spite report when offered neutral advice? Personally, I welcome advice unless it's offered in a very disrespectful way. For example, if someone says "this jungler is clueless and never ganks my lane even though I'm pushed in and he has no flash", that would be clearly something I don't condone.

archerno1Jun 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So we shouldn't try to give our team the best chance to win a ranked game because some people with serious mental issues might have a mental breakdown and spite report when offered neutral advice?

Exactly. Not really formulated like that but at least u get the concept.

AraMoOseJun 11, 20165 votes

{quoted}

I was not rude as I stated. I gave the facts and good advice. It wasn't even whining. Your post feels almost like something someone copy pastes in response to similar threads.

Number 5 is just completely silly and has nothing to do with the post. It could almost be a meme at this point given how frequently it's misused. I main jg and I know what a jg's job is. It varies on the jungler but the main idea is to apply map pressure where it's most likely to yield a reward while also farming as efficiently as possible. Map pressure doesn't even have to be a gank. It could be counterganking, counterjungling, warding well, etc. To say that the jungler should focus the overextended and squishy Vel'Koz with no summoners over a tanky Gnar with escapes as well as summoners isn't whining or asking the jg to win the lane for me. It's just intelligent play exploiting the game state and the weaknesses in a champion's kit.

Your comments are almost as bad as the people who report others for daring to give them advice and suggesting a strategy that fits the game. You're lumping what I wrote into the "blames others" "negative" "thinks jg should win lane for him" nonsense. It feels as if you either didn't read the post at all or failed to comprehend it and it baffles me as to why you'd even bother to respond in that case. Offering advice, while usually in light of something that went suboptimally, falls in neither of those categories. First of all, blaming people isn't even some great crime and any sort of advice indirectly assumes some blame for whoever failed to follow it. That isn't what the problem is and obviously people are always to blame for something since no one's playing perfectly. The issue is when the blaming part is emphasized over the solution. For example, instead of saying, "you should have helped me push the wave when my laner's forced back from the gank and I have no mana or ward coverage" someone who is blaming others unfairly and focusing on the blame aspect would type "it's your fault that I missed the next wave and now he has a cs lead." This isn't a productive comment. As far as negative, again any sort of communication other than "we did everything perfectly" can be misconstrued as negative. I consider negativity as an unrealistically dark assessment focusing on the emotional state rather than reality and improvement. For example "gg Twitch got first blood, game's over" falls into negative. "we're down 3 inhibitors and have no objectives so we should probably ff" is not negative. It is simply a logical opinion. Blaming the jungler and thinking it's their responsibility to win lane would likely produce comments like "wow, jg can't gank and I'm behind" when their jungler is providing good pressure elsewhere or securing objectives and the enemy laner of said person is mobile like a LB. It's even sillier when comments like that are made for a lane that was simply 1v1 the entire game.

I'm very disappointed with how you interpreted my response. I definitely read your post and tried to give constructive feedback. You seem to have interpreted my as saying "This is all your fault and you are a rude prick", which is not even close to what I said. Take the time to read it again.

 For the record, given that you yourself took offense to a very friendly post intended to give advice, is it not at least POSSIBLE that the same thing can happen to others when reading your comment in game? This is precisely why you should abstain from making comments in game... It is very easy for people to misinterpret intentions.

ofartJun 11, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I'm very disappointed with how you interpreted my response. I definitely read your post and tried to give constructive feedback. You seem to have interpreted my as saying "This is all your fault and you are a rude prick", which is not even close to what I said. Take the time to read it again.
 For the record, given that you yourself took offense to a very friendly post intended to give advice, is it not at least POSSIBLE that the same thing can happen to others when reading your comment in game? This is precisely why you should abstain from making comments in game... It is very easy for people to misinterpret intentions.

I took no offense but that doesn't change that it's a generic post basically suggesting that I was probably being rude, whining and blaming others even though I specifically stated that I was not. If you read my post, I find it strange to have so many points in a reply which were directly addressed in the OP.

People just legitimately are incredibly oversensitive and take offense, even blaming me after (saying I tilted them as if I'm in control nonsensical emotional responses), for statements which are not insulting in the slightest. I don't know if people live in a bubble more than before but it wasn't this nuts a few years ago. They get mad at the silliest comments even when it's just factual and there's no emotional charge. They also can't take having one of their suggestions declined or you disagreeing with something they claim. For example, I was playing Vel'Koz with 30% scaling CDR runes (ignore if that's a good idea or not) and their top Swain was snowballing. The Janna told me to build Morello and I declined saying that it would waste CDR in my build and does little vs Swain anyway since he isn't even getting to low HP values where it takes effect unless we have other grievous wounds on him. I suggested that our Cait get the 800g Executioner's instead because it applies at all HPs. After I refused a few more times, the Janna got really annoyed and eventually said I was muted. I was literally not once rude to her or anyone else. She just couldn't take me having a different opinion. Eventually, Cait did get Executioner's and we won. In Janna's case, she didn't say to report me but I wouldn't be surprised if she did based on the drama she created and I think players who either seek attention in this way or deliberately try to play the victim are as bad as toxic players shouting about how bad their teams are.

AraMoOseJun 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I took no offense but that doesn't change that it's a generic post basically suggesting that I was probably being rude, whining and blaming others even though I specifically stated that I was not. If you read my post, I find it strange to have so many points in a reply which were directly addressed in the OP.

I did NOT say you were rude, whining or blaming others in game. In fact I specifically said I couldn't know what you said in game.That's why I am disappointed. This conversation serves no purpose if you're going to ignore what I say and respond to words I didn't use. Maybe it would be best if you re read my initial post after a few days when things have cooled down a bit.

ofartJun 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I did NOT say you were rude, whining or blaming others in game. In fact I specifically said I couldn't know what you said in game.That's why I am disappointed. This conversation serves no purpose if you're going to ignore what I say and respond to words I didn't use. Maybe it would be best if you re read my initial post after a few days when things have cooled down a bit.

I'm not angry in the slightest. While you may have not outright said it, the suggestion of it doesn't make sense when I directly say in the post that I was not any of those things. I'm basically saying I didn't do x, y, z and then get a reply maybe you actually did x, y, z. Even if you don't believe me, I don't see the point of saying this. Writing stuff like "never a productive approach to blame other people" implies to me that you think I was doing this. "It is not the jungler's job to win your lane for you anyways." also suggests that you think I was asking for the jungler to babysit me till I win rather than making an intelligent assessment of the game and suggesting that the lane with the squishy flash-less champ who has no escape and is pushed in would be the best choice. In fact, if it was a mobile champion like LB, I wouldn't suggest the lane should take any special priority but lacking escapes is Vel'Koz's biggest weakness and that's magnified without flash.

NaramielJun 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'm basically saying I didn't do x, y, z and then get a reply maybe you actually did x, y, z. Even if you don't believe me, I don't see the point of saying this.

It's not like you're saying "I didn't die" or "I had the most CS" or any other factual matter. You are making 100% subjective statements like "there wasn't anything passive aggressive". In the absence of a chat log, it's impossible for us to judge that. It's only natural to believe that you might not be possessed of a mystical clarity and objectiveness regarding your own interactions with others.

Given that your specific problem is "people don't react well to my comments", what response are you looking for from people posting here? We can't change how people who aren't on this thread react, so the only thing we can do is offer ways that perhaps you could alter your own interactions. The only real reasonable responses to your post are either "you're right" or "maybe you could do x differently".

ofartJun 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It's not like you're saying "I didn't die" or "I had the most CS" or any other factual matter. You are making 100% subjective statements like "there wasn't anything passive aggressive". In the absence of a chat log, it's impossible for us to judge that. It's only natural to believe that you might not be possessed of a mystical clarity and objectiveness regarding your own interactions with others.

Given that your specific problem is "people don't react well to my comments", what response are you looking for from people posting here? We can't change how people who aren't on this thread react, so the only thing we can do is offer ways that perhaps you could alter your own interactions. The only real reasonable responses to your post are either "you're right" or "maybe you could do x differently".

I wasn't looking for advice. The point was to inform since many people fail to comprehend the distinction when actually presented with it in their own game rather than just as an abstract fact. There's nothing mystical about being objective and I'm more than capable of evaluating what I claimed. This isn't some deep moral conundrum.

woelmuisJun 11, 20163 votes

{quoted} Number 5 is just **_completely silly _**and has nothing to do with the post.

_Your comments are almost as bad as _

You're **_lumping _**what I wrote into the "blames others" "negative" "thinks jg should win lane for him" nonsense.

**_First of all, blaming people isn't even some great crime _**and any sort of advice indirectly assumes some blame for whoever failed to follow it.

I can see why people see your "advice" as flame. You are very aggressive in your reply. Something you see as "not rude", may in fact be very rude to others.

ofartJun 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I can see why people see your "advice" as flame. You are very aggressive in your reply. Something you see as "not rude", may in fact be very rude to others.

I suspected my post wasn't even read since most of the points were addressed directly in it. I consider that disrespectful when making a reply so I was a bit rude. However you should never quote in that way without even completing the sentence. It's disingenuous. The sentence was "Your comments are almost as bad as the people who report others for daring to give them advice and suggesting a strategy that fits the game." To me, the response was suggesting that I was being rude and that provoked the reactions. Typing something like "It is not the jungler's job to win your lane for you anyways." just completely missed the point and made it sound like I was asking the jg to babysit me mindlessly and thought that everything in the game revolved around me. Such responses are as misguided as people being unable to differentiate between a difference of opinion and flame. That's what the sentence was about. It wasn't intended as a personal attack.

However there's a huge difference between that and what I wrote in game. I also never claimed my post wasn't rude and even admitted that it could be worded much nicer. The constant defense of oversensitive players who are disconnected from reality and love to play the victim or start drama is disgusting to me. I was actually being told that I shouldn't give advice in a team game as if that's the issue and not those responding immaturely to feedback. Note that the advice I give in game is directly relevant and not meant for general self-improvement. For example, if Karthus decides to skip a true mana item and builds Morello instead. I'm not going to tell him at 30 min in that he should have got a mana item. That's just pointless and he also will have noticed if his mana needs weren't met. The advice is relevant to the game's state. If anything, in the above case, I'd suggest the jungler prioritize Blue for Karthus.

ltmetalJun 11, 20162 votes

Strangers on the internet are almost never open to advice, and you shouldn't ever expect to teach something to one. I recommend that you phrase your suggestions as favors. Say something like "please gank" instead of "you should gank my lane because his flash is down". Even though you convey less information, I've had more success with manners than dissertation.

ofartJun 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Strangers on the internet are almost never open to advice, and you shouldn't ever expect to teach something to one. I recommend that you phrase your suggestions as favors. Say something like "please gank" instead of "you should gank my lane because his flash is down". Even though you convey less information, I've had more success with manners than dissertation.

This is one of the first posts which was actually relevant and helpful. It's true that I'd write the latter mostly due to not wanting to type so much. I can try to include please more.

71883083DEL1Jun 11, 20162 votes

You were telling him how to do his job, not doing your own thing. This could have tilted the jungler potentially, and thrown his game off. You should let him do his job, and you yours.

ofartJun 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You were telling him how to do his job, not doing your own thing. This could have tilted the jungler potentially, and thrown his game off. You should let him do his job, and you yours.

Just because it's his role doesn't mean that he knows where to be on the map or understands where ganks would be most effective and I wouldn't give advice unless I find it necessary. These replies advocating a lack of communication and feedback truly baffle me because they go against the very thing which matters most to playing effectively.

The issue isn't pointing out that your lane's an ideal gank target when shoved in, flash-less and with no built-in escapes. The problem is people's unfounded reactions to fairly neutral comments like this and that's why I made this post. I am not even debating whether communicating and offering suggestions is good because it clearly is in a team game unless done in a passive-aggressive or offensive way. The post is meant to help people understand that there's a big difference between someone flaming/insulting others and someone giving advice/feedback which you may disagree with. That distinction is lost on many people who think that anything they don't like or don't agree with constitutes flaming.

DeviantdevJun 11, 20162 votes

People will always find time to be offended regardless of opinion.

Pr0MeisterJun 15, 20161 votes

To be fair, I am just a S3 cause I dont have a lot of time to tryhard in Ranked due to RL and my mechanical skills are somewhat lacking. But I have played LoL since season 2 and I dare say I 'get' how the game should be played. When to push, when to recall, watching timers for objectives, when to start and when to contest etc. The works.

But I've noticed that the majority of players flat out refuse to listen to genuine, neutral advice and assume you are raging. To be fair, I do have my rage moments, can't say I am a saint in thsi regard. But even real advice, which is meant to help the player and the team as a whole is ignored out of turn. Even if my higher division friends from Plat or Dia are giving it. I am talking about stuff like "jungler, drake is in 30s dont go gank top now" and "top don't try to 1v1 X he is 2 kills and a 2 items ahead, you have no chance by the numbers". Things I see as common sense are interpreted as if you wish a plague on both their houses.

People need to grow up, sit down and learn to admit when they are wrong and to listen to teammates who genuinely know better. A fact is a fact, and I fully agree with the OP: we will NOT climb unless we sit down, shut up, do what's best for the team and learn to take good advice when it's given (and I personally learn to land skillshots consistently)