Intentional vs. Careless Feeding

mvmlego·1/18/2017, 12:33:01 AM·12 votes·4,124 views

Anyone who's been playing this game for a while has been in a game with a careless feeder. I'm not just talking about someone who occasionally dies because they forget to use an item active; I'm talking about the folks die once every two minutes, ignore any and all pings and wards, have no kill participation to speak of, and spend entire minutes standing in place typing "gg", "darius OP", and "trash jg".

I know Riot is concerned about the player experience, hence their policies about AFK'ing, flaming, intentionally feeding, etc. Each of those things ruin games, vastly worsening the player experience. The thing is, though, if a player goes 0/13/0 in a 28-minute game, it's going to wreck the game whether or not those deaths were "intentional".

I put the word "intentional" in quotations because the line between intentionally feeding and carelessly feeding is blurred. Yes, I know that some deaths aren't reasonably preventable, but getting one death every two minutes is not only preventable, but almost impossible unless a player simply doesn't care how much they die--i.e. isn't actively trying to stay alive. Just how wantonly does a player have to charge 1v5 into the enemy team in order for that death to be considered intentional? What if they do it two or three times? Or ten? Or twenty? Surely an 0/8/0 AP Nasus who has pushed 4,000 units past all allied turrets, champions, and wards, and who has ignored allied pings to retreat, knows he is going to die. How is that not an intentional death? Why is that not punishable? Just because he didn't type in chat that he did it "for lulz"? Is that really where we're going to draw the line? This is why the distinction between malintent and carelessness is arbitrary.

To put this in perspective, a player who DC's at 3:01 and never reconnects doesn't contribute to their own team, but at least they don't contribute to the enemy team. In contrast, an extremely careless feeder not only contributes nothing to their team, they actively contribute to the enemy team. Yet, the first player will be reprimanded, and the second won't. I guarantee that if Riot ran a statistical analysis on 4v5s vs. games where one of the players had a mid-match score of 0/10/1 or worse, the underdog side would win more often in the 4v5s. There's a reason people refer to the latter type of game as a 4v6.

My suggestion is as follows: during a ranked game, if a player has at least one death for every 100 seconds of up-time, a kill participation rate of less than 10%, and deals less than 2000 raw damage (including damage dealt by ZZ'Rot and Promoted minions) to structures (this is about 1/3 of a turret's health bar), they receive a strike. If it is their first strike within the last two months, they receive a warning, and some mandatory reading on how to contribute to their team even when behind. If it's their second strike within a two-month period (effectively meaning that the strikes expire after two months), then they get a two-week ban. For additional strikes within two months of their most recent strike... I'm not really sure. Suggestions are welcome.

Please note that I say this should only apply to ranked games. People have a variety of motivations for playing normal games, and can still have a great time even if their team has no chance of winning. Therefore, for the sportsmanlike player, an extremely careless feeder should not utterly ruin the play experience during a normal game. On the other hand, people play ranked games to win. If a player has fed the other team to the point where it's impossible to win, then it does justifiably ruin the play experience.

I anticipate two primary objections to this post:

  1. "A player can die a lot but still contribute to their team." Agreed. This is why I think it should only be punishable if the player falls below generously low KP and structure damage thresholds.
  2. "Git gud. These players only exist in low elo." Not true. I'm currently in Gold V (the 80th percentile of players at the time of this post--see link a), and three of my last five games had teammates with mid-game scores of 0/5/0 or worse (see links b, c, & d), and it's happened plenty of times before.

In short, not trying to live (carelessly feeding) is not meaningfully better than trying to die (intentionally feeding).

To those who have read through the entire post, I'm grateful. GL, and HF.

================================MVM================================

a: http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/rank-distribution b: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2401519419/213645104?tab=overview (Darius) c: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2402058832/213645104?tab=overview (Singed) d: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2402112441/213645104?tab=overview (Nasus)

EDIT: I have edited the original post to clean it up a bit and better explain why I think this should apply to ranked games, and only ranked games.

EDIT 2: Changed the splitpusher protection clause to be based off of raw damage dealt to structures, since "number of structures destroyed" isn't a reliable way to measure a player's impact.

21 Comments

This Is Your Dad1/18/2017, 7:50:52 AM5 votes

My thing is if you give the enemy a gold advantage and act as if you are equal, you will lose almost every time. You must respect their lead. Using the same strategy to fight a battle with lower odds is basically the definition of insanity.

Plesi1/18/2017, 4:54:44 AM3 votes

Hey, MVMLEGO!

First, I want to thank you for visiting my own thread regarding a similar topic: When Is A Person Doing More Than Just "Having a Bad Game"?

On to your post!

There does seem to be too many people who feed on a ridiculous scale, whether it is intentional or not. Now, I am not at a very high rank. I'm currently in Silver III, fresh out of placements. So, hopefully my next statement does not suggest that I think of myself as a godtier, super skilled player. However, the amount of feeding and ignorance of basic game mechanics seems unusual in my current elo, to the point where it is absurd that some players die over ten times to the same mistakes, over and over.

A lot of the times they will sit in their lane and blame their own jungler because they are getting camped by the enemy team with no response from our own. However, you look at their lane and they have never placed more than one ward every ten minutes! If you are consistently getting camped, why aren't you warding? Why are you shoving the lane? Why aren't you freezing your wave? Why aren't you roaming for kill/assist opportunities in other lanes to be more successful than you are in your lane? Why aren't you building to counter your laner?

It can be so frustrating!

Yes, I know that some deaths aren't reasonably preventable, but getting one death every two minutes is not only preventable, but almost impossible unless a player simply doesn't care how much they die--i.e. isn't actively trying to stay alive.

Exactly. It gets to the point where you honestly have to be TRYING to die. For example, I've had games where players claim that they are consistently camped by a Zac jungle every single time they return to lane (after a death). They blame Zac's passive allowing him to tank the turret so that the enemy laner can snag an easy kill. They claim that even if they sit under tower and farm, they will just die to Zac. However, Zac's Cell Division has a 300 second cooldown. How can you possibly be dying to a 5-minute cooldown every 2 minutes? Agggh! Annoying.

  1. "A player can die a lot but still contribute to their team." Agreed. This is why I think it should only be punishable if the player falls below a generously low KP threshold and "structures destroyed" threshold.

This is most certainly true. A few weeks (or months ago now, maybe) I had a Braum game where I went 0-6-10 or something similar. I felt like my KDA made me seem like I wasn't doing anything. However, my ADC consistently thanked me for my extreme peeling, CC, and overall protection of him. I may have seemed like a feeder due to my KDA, but my actual actions and playstyle said otherwise. The amount of projectiles I blocked, damage I took, and CC and peeling that I contributed couldn't simply be recorded by statistics, but by the kind words said by my teammates.

  1. "Git gud. These players only exist in low elo." Not true. I'm currently in Gold V (the 80th percentile of players at the time of this post--see link a), and three of my last five games had teammates with mid-game scores of 0/5/0 or worse (see links b, c, & d), and it's happened plenty of times before.

Agreed. Nope, not true. I can't say much else about this. I've heard this said a million times, but these people (to say it politely) are talking out of their buttocks. I'm sure you could pull up any single person's profile on the League of Legends website who is in a higher elo and browse their ranked games. Sure enough, there will be plenty of extremely negative KDAs.

My suggestion is as follows: if a player has at least one death for every 100 seconds of up-time, a kill participation rate of less than 10%, and fewer than two turret/inhibitor kills, they receive a strike.

This sounds rather nice. I have had players who are very obviously intentional feeding and also players who are "not" (please notice the quotations, lol) intentional feeding say that "Oh, I didn't admit to it in chat, so I'm obviously not doing it on purpose" or "Oh, I haven't been toxic or said anything to suggest I'm trolling, so I'm fine." Now, I'm not sure how often someone's chat confirms whether or not they are actually feeding, but I definitely think that the participation factor you mentioned should be more closely examined.

If it's their second strike within a two-month period, then they get a two-week ban.

I think the strikes would be a good idea in moderation. The problem is that sometimes people genuinely do have bad games, and will willfully admit it in chat and apologize profusely. However, I think that one someone gets a strike, it should be erased from their account after an extended period of time. So, let's say someone gets a strike on their account, but three months pass. The strike should be lifted, I believe.

In short, not trying to live (carelessly feeding) is not meaningfully better than trying to die (intentionally feeding).

One of the best and most relatable quotes I have ever seen on the forums. Cheers for this; I will definitely be using this statement myself (Copyright @ MVMLEGO 2017 lol!).

Thanks for this thread. It's very interesting and I hope it encourages more conversation. Hope to see you on the rift! Cheers.

~Miss Lady Chloe

slash mute yall4/10/2017, 2:49:30 AM2 votes

How about the following for a solution?

What if there is an if-then code that would kick in such as, if the ratio of kills to deaths to assists are bad enough -so that those 0/15/15 supports out there do not get included (so for example a player goes 0/20/0, maybe even put a damage per minute minimum on this too), then the team that wins gets the win LP, but the team that loses will lose 0 LP like with a remake. The sole exception would of course be Pouty McPouterson who loses his LP like a normal loss (or if you really want to stick it to them, you make that person lose the LP that their entire team would have lost).

Chønklord1/20/2017, 2:45:04 PM1 votes

I main Singed and I regularly go negative score due to proxying waves and attracting at least 2 enemies, while my team (if they're bright) uses that advantage on other lanes. That's how proxy singed works.

Sometimes it works great, sometimes it doesn't. Depends on the capabilities of the other 4 teammates and how good/bad my opponent (champion matchup) is.

Does that make me a careless feeder? No, cause when it works, you win. Even if you're 1-9.

KDA does not equate to winning, objectives do.

scazzman1/21/2017, 8:11:15 PM1 votes

i think a better option would be to make it so if a player loses more than 3 games in a row in ranked. they are blocked from playing ranked until they WIN 3 normal or bot games,"doesnt have to be in a row" this would serve to force players to untilt themselves before going back into ranked, as well as have the added benefit of soft banning intentional trolls from ranked"or at least forcing them to play seriously 35% of the time" it's also 100% unabusable. i think turning down the faucet would improve player behavior tremendously. less tilted/unskilled/boosted players in ranked would mean less stress, and less toxic chat

Rayning1/18/2017, 12:53:35 AM1 votes

I have many trolls lately. I'm guessing the man known as Tyler1 is making more videos or someone else has taken his place. This game is terrible. I am probably about to stop playing because riot treats everyone like "beep" anymore.

Dancing Foxx4/11/2017, 4:43:33 AM1 votes

I just went 0/9/2 on my 1st kindred game. I didn't know how to use my champion as I was learning and our blitzcrank mid built 5 pairs of shoes and int fed. I got 1-shot by the 20/1 fizz and our team couldn't handle anyone on the other team.

Sometimes bad KDAs happen even if you try and even if you aren't making bad calls. Since this game is snowbally sometimes you just can't do anything if you have two lanes feeding or if you are new and lose a bad trade.

eluriad1/18/2017, 5:40:13 PM1 votes

I concur with this post and have nothing to add! You said everything beautifully

AMYS GRAVE1/18/2017, 5:46:49 PM1 votes