To all the “KYS-ERS”

La Belle Sauvage·Apr 22, 2017·59 votes·4,332 views

Words matter. They do. The summer before my senior year, I reconnected with an old childhood friend. It was good to see him after years. We decided to go out one night and it was pretty cool, getting acquainted again. I don’t recall what we talked about, but I’m sure girls came up, over all it was a great night and It felt quite normal, natural.

I’ve thought about that night many times over the last 23 years and bits and pieces of that night float back to me. But I never remember dropping him off, or what the last thing we said to each other, but I do remember we both agreed to hang out again.

However, exactly two months later he blew his brains out with a handgun.

The point here of telling this story in this way is this. I detected nothing. No sadness, he was the same ole guy I knew just older. But I was wrong. And so are you every time you tell someone to KYS, because you cannot know what a person over the internet is going through and you don’t know the effect your words may have. You can lie to yourself and shrug it off, but if I couldn’t tell in person (Granted we weren’t close at the time) none of us can actually know what affect our words may have on someone.

If you are older then a teenager and say these words, then you’re worse. To the teenager and younger crowd, you know better, right? Or you should know better.

And for all you teenagers and younger kids out there, words matter. Don’t pretend they don’t. I imagine there are quite a few of you who have been called names at school or by siblings, parents, family, friends. And if you have felt the sting of the words and play this game and tell someone to KYS, then you’re as big of an ass as the person who called caused you pain in real life.

Here is a spoken poem by someone who went through losing a friend and if you haven’t lost a friend or family member to Suicide I urge you to watch, it sure hit me in the stomach.

149 Comments

Schwaka0Apr 22, 201719 votes

As someone who has suicidal thoughts and regularly makes the decision to not act on them, you are essentially responsible for your own actions and well being. Telling someone to kill themselves is fucked up, but let's not pretend that there's this huge trend of people killing themselves and some random person's words were even in the top 10 of reasons why they did it.

Suicide is usually the result of long term unbearable pain that the person just couldn't take anymore. It's not always rational or logical, and sometimes treatment just doesn't help. I've been through therapy and I'm on medication number 5 i think over the last 4 years with no long term benefit. Some days are better than others, but overall nothing changes.

If anything, not committing suicide shows strength and determination, so why make up this imaginary frail person who will do it just because some random person said something mean?

You are ultimately responsible for your own actions/reactions. The words of some random person are meaningless unless you apply meaning to them. If someone close to me non-jokingly told me I should kill myself, it would be a huge blow to my mental state. However, if any of the random people I've played with did the same, I wouldn't give it another thought. The same goes for people close to me jokingly telling me to kill myself; I trash talk among friends quite often.

SammystormApr 22, 20175 votes

You are correct but a random stranger saying something can be the last straw. Also it is just a stupid thing to say.

Sraeg2013Apr 22, 201711 votes

ANYTHING can be the last straw.

LauchmelderApr 22, 20174 votes

That just means you don't need to risk it with a thoughtless 'kys' though.

Sraeg2013Apr 22, 20174 votes

While I don't use it myself, I'm not going to defend the person acting on the phrase either.

Quite a few times I took a knife, put it to my arm and thought something like "that'd leave too big of a mess".

However that was because of real life problems not some moron calling me names on the internet, lol. If something trivial like this can push a person to commit suicide, so can failing to tie a shoe or putting ingredients in a wrong order when making a sandwich.

Actually scratch the last one. Taking a bite out of a sandwich and realizing cheese is on top of ham pisses me off more than anything I've seen on the internet.

EazyMakaveli2Apr 23, 20173 votes

i agree. Besides saying "kys" kinda lost its heavy meaning after being used to often. its like saying "get rekt" or "f you" now.

WinTheWarOnPantsApr 22, 20176 votes

It's so obvious when people like OP talk about "helping the poor depressed/suicidal" people that they really have no idea what the dark hell(an understatement) of depression is like or how/why they feel that way. They just wanna feel good about themselves, without really caring if they are actually helping or not. I obviously don't speak for the every person who has ever suffered through depression, but if you think "ok, guys, let's not tell people to kill themselves because one of those "depressed" people might hear you and actually do it." does a damn thing to actually help people and keep them from suicide, you don't have a freaking clue. How about "try not to be an asshole?" this is good advice that extends well outside of leauge. Not typing 3 freaking letters(kys*), and thinking that you are saving people by doing so, is just plain ignorant. In fact tip toeing around like someone is "too fragile" more often than not is actually worse than just letting them have it and being a douche. When people pretend like they really care and try to make some kind of "safe-zone" for you, it just makes you feel more pathetic than you already do. If you really wanna help someone who has depression, TALK TO THEM, ask them questions. If you don't wanna do that, then f-off. and don't pretend like because you didn't say "kys" in an online game, that you made the world a better place.

JedenVojakApr 22, 20173 votes

{quoted}

It's so obvious when people like OP talk about "helping the poor depressed/suicidal" people that they really have no idea what the dark hell(an understatement) of depression is like or how/why they feel that way. They just wanna feel good about themselves, without really caring if they are actually helping or not. I obviously don't speak for the every person who has ever suffered through depression, but if you think "ok, guys, let's not tell people to kill themselves because one of those "depressed" people might hear you and actually do it." does a damn thing to actually help people and keep them from suicide, you don't have a freaking clue. How about "try not to be an asshole?" this is good advice that extends well outside of leauge. Not typing 3 freaking letters(kys*), and thinking that you are saving people by doing so, is just plain ignorant. In fact tip toeing around like someone is "too fragile" more often than not is actually worse than just letting them have it and being a douche. When people pretend like they really care and try to make some kind of "safe-zone" for you, it just makes you feel more pathetic than you already do. If you really wanna help someone who has depression, TALK TO THEM, ask them questions. If you don't wanna do that, then f-off. and don't pretend like because you didn't say "kys" in an online game, that you made the world a better place.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

La Belle SauvageApr 23, 20171 votes

Never did I claim to be saving some one, You are making so many incorrect assumptions that it's hard to cover them all. There is nothing wrong with being decent, in all aspects of your life. What is wrong with being impeccable with your words? Why on earth do any of you defend this behavior?

WinTheWarOnPantsApr 23, 20173 votes

I was just making a sweeping generalization based on personal experience, I'm sorry if a made incorrect assumptions about you. The topic of suicide is uncomfortable for a vast majority of people. they just don't want to talk about it and want it to be taboo so that other people don't talk about it. They may think that it helps other people, but it really is about making themselves feel more comfortable(in general from what i can gather). The problem you get when you make certain words taboo, is that you actually give them more power when used(think about how much power that "n*%ger" has amassed over the years(It's the only word that i can think of that people refuse to say regardless of context)). I'm most certainly not against "not being an asshole", i'm just against labeling "kys" or any word for that matter, as "that which you cannot say". People who are depressed aren't mindless robots that will kill themselves because you told them to. There normal people that are just going through tough times and/or suffered trauma that they can't quite deal with. "kys" is honestly one of the least hurtful things someone has said to me in this game. It's just so over the top that it almost always makes me laugh instead. The assumption that "kys" is some magic trigger that will make people commit suicide, just shows an ignorance about depression. Sure some people have triggers, but it's probably not "kys". Some people get set off be names or objects or words like "crazy". "Being a better person and being kinder to other people", is a great goal that everyone should work on. "kys" is just one of a myriad of ways to be a douche.

KORGtunersApr 22, 201715 votes

Older generation:

If your friends jump off a bridge, will you aswell?

No.

Newer generation:

If your friends jump off a bridge, will you aswell?

That is offensive. You shouldn't make light of suicide. Someone might actually do it.

AkaliholicApr 22, 201731 votes

You know, I hate PC culture as much as the next guy, but getting pretty tired of the people on the opposite side taking things out of context and excusing all manner of bullshit.

Everybody is responsible for their own feelings and decisions yes, but that goes both ways and means the speaker can be held responsible for speaking carelessly and being a dick.

Guess what? Back in the old days, they also had this concept called "common decency". Something that has also been lost along with thick skins apparently.

Simply put: Don't tell people to KYS. That's just being a full-on asshat.

Don't gloss over the fact that that is simply inexcusable behavior.

KORGtunersApr 22, 20179 votes

Don't gloss over the fact that that is simply inexcusable behavior.

I have no problems tolerating such behavior.

The following is a snippit of Buddhism:

"Punna, the Sunaparanta people are fierce. They are rough. If they insult and ridicule you, what will you think?" "If they insult and ridicule me, I will think, 'These Sunaparanta people are civilized, very civilized, in that they don't hit me with their hands.' That is what I will think, O Blessed One. That is what I will think, O One Well-gone." "But if they hit you with their hands, what will you think?" "...I will think, 'These Sunaparanta people are civilized, very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a clod.'..." "But if they hit you with a clod...?" "...I will think, 'These Sunaparanta people are civilized, very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a stick.'..." "But if they hit you with a stick...?" "...I will think, 'These Sunaparanta people are civilized, very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..." "But if they hit you with a knife...?" "...I will think, 'These Sunaparanta people are civilized, very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..." "But if they take your life with a sharp knife...?" "If they take my life with a sharp knife, I will think, 'There are disciples of the Blessed One who — horrified, humiliated, and disgusted by the body and by life — have sought for an assassin, but here I have met my assassin without searching for him.' That is what I will think, O Blessed One. That is what I will think, O One Well-gone." "Good, Punna, very good. Possessing such calm and self-control you are fit to dwell among the Sunaparantans. Now it is time to do as you see fit."

AkaliholicApr 22, 201717 votes

We should all strive to be personally immune to other people's bad behavior, but that doesn't mean we EXCUSE it when it's done to people around us.

GJ taking Buddhism out of context though.

Velzard of KozApr 22, 20177 votes

He didn't take it out of context, the context is there for those who comprehend. Buddhism (just like Jesus' christianity originally) was about absolute submission. As Christian you cannot judge because even mass murderer might be but a tool in God's perfect plan. You don't know their feelings. You don't know their purpose. Thus you shall not judge.

In same way, Buddhism was about avoiding attracting (bad) karma by good behaviour which was defined as submission.

Not that I'd agree with those philosophies.

AkaliholicApr 22, 20174 votes

Except that what I said was to not gloss over the fact that the behavior is inexcusable, and he brought in Buddhism to try and gloss over it. Go figure. But Buddhism doesn't excuse being an asshole, nor does it condone ignoring the suffering of those abused by assholes.

He may personally be able to put up with it, but in emphasizing that fact he's neglecting the fact that not everyone can.

IPromiseTomorrowApr 22, 20171 votes

If you read what this thread said you'd see you're not grasping the idea. Read it again. If you can't understand it. Then don't bother acting like you do. Understand it and then reply.

Taking in communication and acting like you know it has small to massive consequences. This thread is communicating to you.

Here's what you missed. That guy that says Kys, is saying it knowingly that he wants the other person to die.

If he says "It's just a video game" He's making up excuses to defend his image, he knows what he did was wrong so he'd justify, by lies and whatever, to defend himself from what he did. Tell someone to kill themselves.

This is no light matter. The PC society has this rolling as the norm Doesn't mean it has to be.

There's a time and place to joke around and take things as a game. We do that we know that. The person that tells someone to kill themselves and mean it. Is doing just that.

KORGtunersApr 22, 20172 votes

That guy that says Kys, is saying it knowingly that he wants the other person to die.

You do not know that. The person saying kill yourself doesn't even know.

In order to feel remorseful, you have to commit a mistake first.

RivenwindApr 22, 20175 votes

Remorse comes from empathy. Not the mistake.

SlimegoonApr 22, 201713 votes

MRW someone says in-game insults might actually cause them to kill themselves:

http://i.imgur.com/y8Ea8jB.gif

Seriously. I had a friend kill himself shortly after high school, so I have experience. And you know what? If you're in such a bad place that video games will trigger you, STOP PLAYING THE GAMES. Check yourself into a mental hospital right away. If you're so close to the edge that someone saying "kys" in League will make you do it, you need serious mental help and 24/7 monitoring. Period.

It's a cop out to ignore your own mental health and force others to live the way you want. News flash, mentally stable male friends in League's target age range (18-34) tell each other to kill themselves ALL THE TIME. The term "f*ck my life" mocks depression but was huge because of Superbad. You're the one with problems, not us, and if you're too stubborn to seek proper treatment, that's on you.

And this is coming from someone that has never told someone to kill themselves out of anger (though I did when my friend sh*t his pants while hiking and I had to walk back surrounded by his stink).

Morgan le FeyApr 22, 20177 votes

I doubt everyone shares this view, but I think the important part is to come at this from a different angle. I dislike this blame game. I don't want to say "you're at fault if someone responds poorly when you say terrible things", but rather "please don't say terrible things". It's a critical difference.

Little bit of a tangent here, but I do think it's important to note what I believe to be the subtext of this whole discussion. While I myself am generally a pretty politically-correct person, there is a major problem with shaming people because they aren't the same. It's pretty hypocritical, actually. atm PC culture is just moralism all over again, but from the social left rather than the social right. I still think it's wrong to be a butt about terrible language, but trying to force you with shame to adopt my moral system that decries shaming is self-defeating and generally just not okay imo. I want you to be a nice person with your speech, and I'll tell you I want you to speak more nicely, but I will also defend to the death your legal right to not be a verbally kind person. That doesn't mean I like hanging out with you when you're not verbally nice, and it doesn't mean that I won't defend those you're a butt towards, but I don't think it's my place to forbid you from being what I see as unkind. Does that make sense at all? Not 100% sure I'm communicating this properly.

La Belle SauvageApr 23, 20172 votes

I didn't slam anyone in my original post. I never once uttered that you do not have the right to say these things. The whole free speech argument is a bit weak, because free speech does not prevent you from experience consequences intended or otherwise. Words have power, that's not something you can deny. Some people are frail that's also something you cannot deny, but nor do you have any control over others this is true, but you can control your civility.

Morgan le FeyApr 25, 20171 votes

To clarify, the "free speech" thing is literally just "you can't be arrested for saying this in the US", which is a pretty weak argument in favor of actually saying the things. The second paragraph was a largely unrelated rant. xD

Alistair34Apr 22, 201712 votes

So funny how some people here actually try to rationalize the act of telling another human being to end their life.

La Belle SauvageApr 22, 20175 votes

agree.

This Is Your DadApr 22, 20176 votes

Most people playing league would respond by saying "Good, I'm glad you're dead." They claim "survival of the fittest" and call people that are suicidal "snowflakes." They have no empathy and deserve none in return. League is a terrible community, but it's not league that the community derives itself from. It's the gradually declining social standards of our own world. People don't help anyone anymore. We are reaching a point in human history where we should inevitably destroy ourselves, and it gets harder and harder not to agree with the sentiment that humanity just needs to go extinct.

Scary DoorApr 22, 20174 votes

What you're describing here is the classic sociopath---an individual with absolutely no empathy with no regard for their actions or the consequences thereof. I would love to tell you that sociopathic behavior is isolated, but in reality it is a growing cancer (and I use this word deliberate) on this and other communities. There is practically no disincentive to curtail the behavior and, in fact, I would argue that many online games/communities cater to this type of behavior.

There was a time in League of Legends where peers judged one another when their behavior became problematic; it was the tribunal and, while it wasn't perfect, it provided an outlet for the playerbase to police itself. You could see the bad behavior, for a time you even got to see the name of the Summoner that was being reviewed... my point is that there was some shame in being toxic, but now it's almost encouraged.

fatherdariusApr 22, 20171 votes

Misanthropy. It's what's for dinner.

This Is Your DadApr 22, 20175 votes

I love people. I just happen to hate everything about them.

Trias000Apr 22, 20172 votes

No, there is no decline. People have always been like that.

KVbqbFsC8eApr 22, 20176 votes

Words only matter as much as people allow them to. If someone really would kill themselves over what some stranger on the Internet says, then under no circumstance should they be using the Internet whatsoever.

Troll for TrumpApr 22, 20176 votes

Remember back when people didn't need to cater to the minority opinion?

SqkergApr 22, 201717 votes

Is it really too much to ask for people to be nice?

Morgan le FeyApr 22, 201710 votes

Seriously. This post basically amounts to "don't be an ass, lest you kick someone while they're down".

Troll for TrumpApr 22, 20172 votes

But almost no one is "down"

Morgan le FeyApr 22, 20173 votes

Just from pure statistics, 6.7% of the adult (18+) population of the US has clinical depression in any given year. The second-largest variance from that (weirdly, the largest variance is multiracial folks) is 10.7% in the 18-25 age category. While I suspect the value you'll run on NA is lower (not everyone by a long shot is 18-25, and NA covers three countries while the NIH study only covers the US, and gamers tend to be a somewhat different demographic from the general population), even 6.7% means there's two people with clinical depression every three games. That's very different from "almost no one".

Also, that's just counting people with depression serious enough to be clinically diagnosed, and excludes people who don't go to the doctor as well as people with other mood disorders that happen to include depression (bipolar being the most well-known). Further, you don't have to be depressed to be down. I don't know the rate of suicide attempts among depressed folks, but I do know there are people who aren't depressed who are on the brink anyways due to unrelated reasons.

Finally, all this is counting only "kys". It's far from the worst example of people being asses towards each other. Seriously, people flame and rage at each other constantly. League is famous for it. It feels like I see it every third game. It's usually just blame games, and half the time it's mistargeted (level 1 bot-side invade kills support? Blame the top laner!) as well as misguided. It's tiresome, at best.

I'm not saying you have to say friendship is magic and dance around all sparkles and rainbows if you don't want to. Just... if you're angry, say it out loud rather than putting it in chat. Let the steam off some other way, then get past it and get back to the game. There's tons of ways to operate that don't involve sarcastic sniping or angry raging. You don't have to be super sportsmanlike, just don't be unsportsmanlike. Neutral is okay.

edit: Woops, forgot to put the link in for that NIH study. Here's an elegant and finely-crafted link.

Troll for TrumpApr 22, 20171 votes

Stop. Stop. Stop.

How many of those play League of Legends?

The 6.7% does not apply to League of Legends. It applies to the US population. You will wind up with a different percentage.

Morgan le FeyApr 25, 20171 votes

Yeah, I did mention that:

{quoted}

While I suspect the value you'll run on NA is lower (not everyone by a long shot is 18-25, and NA covers three countries while the NIH study only covers the US, and gamers tend to be a somewhat different demographic from the general population)

And while tbh in my experience League players have a higher rate of depressive symptoms than the general population, that's not really a valid statistic. Obviously all of this is very rough and not a scientifically rigorous study, but I can't exactly conduct the sort of massive-scale survey you'd need to have any clue for certain. I'm estimating - deliberately very conservatively - for the sake of a casual forum post. I wanted to point out that I have some evidence backing up my statement, rather than simply continuing an arbitrary argument that will go nowhere.

My point is simply that there are a lot more people "down" that most people think. I realize it's really easy to miss us, because it can be incredibly hard to tell if even someone you know very well is depressed if you haven't experienced it. It's essentially impossible to tell if most casual passersby have issues or not. Basically, you don't know their lives. :P

Troll for TrumpApr 22, 20174 votes

Yes?

You don't need to be an ass but you don't need to be nice.

It's perfectly fine to be neutral, and that's what the majority of the community is.

Do you really think you're entitled to everyone treating you nice?

WestwardZephyrApr 22, 201712 votes

Are you actually saying that telling someone to kill themselves is being "neutral"? Is that seriously what you're trying to say here?

Morgan le FeyApr 22, 20171 votes

This word "entitled" is badly misused. It started out legitimate - "oh, people feel like they're entitled to a nice car even if they didn't earn it" - but now it's thrown around every time anyone asks for anything. Making a request for basic decency isn't entitlement. It's just... normal human behavior, and has been for centuries. It's a core part of how most functional post-feudal societies maintain the peace.

Troll for TrumpApr 22, 20171 votes

It isn't normal human behavior to be nice.

It's the ideal world, and it always has been. For centuries, what we've been pushing for is a world where every person is nice, generous, and virtuous. And for centuries, it hasn't happened. It won't happen.

Normal human behavior is neutral-malign, in the perspective of the ideal world. But, since it's the normal human behavior, it's just neutral through our perspective.

People aren't normally nice, they're neutral.

Morgan le FeyApr 25, 20171 votes

I didn't say expecting someone to be kind is normal. Expecting someone to have basic decency - aka to be neutral - is a normal expectation. Conflict between various "tribes" (or whatever you want to call social groups) is pretty normal, but within a non-hostile social environment - even between groups - tolerating each other and not picking fights is important for at least momentary coherency. This is the situation we run into with League. We might be completely different, but we need to not actively fight each other for 20-40 minutes. We don't need to like each other, but starting a fight is kinda shooting yourself in the foot to hit everyone else.

LolyiconApr 22, 20176 votes

Yeah, remember when they just got put in concentration camps? What has the world come to when we aren't even allowed to behave like savage animals.

AlthasizorApr 22, 20174 votes

Savage animals don't put people in concentration camps though, really organized animals do. Also, the comparison is kind of ludicrous. You're comparing someone saying. essentially, "stop being thin-skinned" with millions of people starving to death and dying of disease in labour camps. Poor form.

Morgan le FeyApr 22, 20174 votes

The comparison is a bit much (hello, Godwin!), but if I read it properly the point isn't to compare the two situations. I think it's to remind people that treating minorities like crap can snowball into enough antipathy to cause serious long-term consequences. Could just be reading too much into a Godwin's Law post, though.

Troll for TrumpApr 22, 20173 votes

But treating minorities with so much entitlement (spoiling them) can create just as bad of an effect.

America as a whole is like that, with each generation getting worse than the next.

Hey, remember when kids wouldn't get smartphones in elementary school? That they had to earn them, in high school?

Morgan le FeyApr 22, 20171 votes

Lemme take this one bit at a time so I can be sure to address all of your points here.

{quoted}

But treating minorities with so much entitlement (spoiling them) can create just as bad of an effect.

I don't entirely understand how asking people to treat minorities as equals is entitlement, though I might've missed something. I want to be sure I know what you're saying, or this could turn into a horrible pile of miscommunication very quickly. Could you help me understand? :)

"Spoiling them"? While there are racist legal and social policies in favor of racial minorities ("reverse racism", whatever that means), those exist against the same minorities, too. Both sorts of policies are bad. There's underlying cultural issues that minorities have to be deal with on a daily basis. These are the sorts of things I'm talking about.

I'd argue that both sides - the "entitlement" cries from one end and the "privilege" cries from the other - are weirdly similar and equally whatever-ist. Ultimately both of those are about wide generalizations based on arbitrary differences. Neither side will ever agree with the other, but the sooner we stop making those sorts of generalizations and stop making it "them" and "us", the sooner both of those complaints will be on their way to being moot. I do believe that that's achievable. The progress that's been main towards that end in the last half a century is amazing, and things look good moving forwards if we can keep improving our own attitudes. I'm looking forward to a bright future. If my awareness of representation becomes a "racist grandparent" thing rather than a good tool for positive change, I'll be very happy.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

America as a whole is like that, with each generation getting worse than the next.

Hey, remember when kids wouldn't get smartphones in elementary school? That they had to earn them, in high school?

Remember when kids didn't get cell phones at all, but had to park it by a corded phone whenever they wanted to talk to their friends? When the internet went away when a phone call happened, and only one phone call could happen at a time? Remember when cell phones were giant backpack-sized machines installed in cars that only rich people and the military could afford? My apologies if this comes off as snarky (I realize it could, but that's not the intended effect). I think it's important for me to show specific examples rather than just make a bunch of broad statements with no context in my next paragraph.

Technology marches onward. Things get cheaper and more common. Smartphone technology is vastly improved from 8 years ago, and they're far cheaper than they used to be. It's not much more expensive for kids to have smartphones than it is for them to have DSes (or Gameboys, back in the day), and honestly it's much more practical. Yes, there's entitlement and jealousy. I don't disagree with that. I don't think there's as much entitlement as many people seem to think there is, but it's there, and no, it's not good. It's not exactly hard to understand, though, if you remember being a kid at all. If all of your friends have this expensive toy that lets them talk to each other all the time, wouldn't you want one too? That's a thing kids have done for a long time. The toys are just getting shinier.

(Also, maybe it's just my area, but I've never actually heard of a kid with a full-on smartphone that was exclusively their own before the very end of elementary or beginning of middle school. That's when it gets common around here.)

Troll for TrumpApr 22, 20171 votes

I don't mean minorities as in just race or sexuality. People always only think of those two whenever "minority" is mentioned, and it's pretty annoying.

It's either none or all of them. You don't get to cherrypick "which minorities are good."

Because not everyone deserves equal treatment, and should be treated based on the individual, not on a case-by-case basis. You act out, you get your comeuppance. Sexuality, race, beliefs, etc. don't matter.

The problem with the LGBT and Civil Rights Movement groups is that they often don't seek equal treatment, but better treatment. They feel entitled to be excluded from the consequences of negative actions because of their sexuality or race, when they really shouldn't. This is not every person, but a considerable sum.

And yes, reverse racism is a concept that does exist, but isn't limited to just white people. Right now, the "minorities" outnumber the "majority" (for Caucasian vs non-caucasian). Eventually, there will be a point where the two groups switch positions. It is already happening.

If we are taught to promote free thinking, why all the discrimination towards "bigotry?" It is a way of thinking, and should be treated as such. As the minority groups promote anti-bigotry, it creates the exact same setting which the minority groups feel like they are discriminated against. This would be another exemplification of the concept behind "reverse-racism."

I'd argue that both sides - the "entitlement" cries from one end and the "privilege" cries from the other - are weirdly similar and equally whatever-ist. Ultimately both of those are about wide generalizations based on arbitrary differences. Neither side will ever agree with the other, but the sooner we stop making those sorts of generalizations and stop making it "them" and "us", the sooner both of those complaints will be on their way to being moot. I do believe that that's achievable. The progress that's been main towards that end in the last half a century is amazing, and things look good moving forwards if we can keep improving our own attitudes. I'm looking forward to a bright future. If my awareness of representation becomes a "racist grandparent" thing rather than a good tool for positive change, I'll be very happy.

Basically, this. All of this is ideal, and will never happen. There will never be an "us," and to keep trying to achieve that will just lead to another polarization and cause unnecessary struggle. The best way to an "us" is through unification, with a set of standards that will be applied to everyone. This, too, would be impossible to achieve in real life, however.

Regarding the second part, you are basically agreeing with what I said: America as a whole is like that, with each generation getting worse than the next.

Before smartphones were even invented, it was the corded phone. Before that, the Internet, and before that, the gameboy. Before THAT, the Nintendo Entertainment System. And so on.

Each generation progressively gets worse and more entitled. Hidden costs of "progression"

Morgan le FeyApr 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I don't mean minorities as in just race or sexuality. People always only think of those two whenever "minority" is mentioned, and it's pretty annoying.

It's either none or all of them. You don't get to cherrypick "which minorities are good."

Actually, that's really fair. My bad. That's normally what people are talking about, so I do tend to make certain assumptions.

Because not everyone deserves equal treatment, and should be treated based on the individual, not on a case-by-case basis. You act out, you get your comeuppance. Sexuality, race, beliefs, etc. don't matter.

The problem with the LGBT and Civil Rights Movement groups is that they often don't seek equal treatment, but better treatment. They feel entitled to be excluded from the consequences of negative actions because of their sexuality or race, when they really shouldn't. This is not every person, but a considerable sum.

Same issue we've had for ages. No group outside of formal organizations is really coherent in that it's not really a "group". That's a huge part of what makes all of this so stupid. All this discrimination against people on arbitrary bases - for their harm or benefit - is divisive and destructive. Here in the US, it runs really hard counter to the "melting pot" ideal we never achieve and never will but nevertheless strive for when we're at our best.

And yes, reverse racism is a concept that does exist, but isn't limited to just white people. Right now, the "minorities" outnumber the "majority" (for Caucasian vs non-caucasian). Eventually, there will be a point where the two groups switch positions. It is already happening.

Hard for me to really comment much on this. I live in a city where people with black skin have been the majority (or at minimum plurality) for decades. While I've visited other places obviously, I don't have much day-to-day experience to fall back on when it comes to who's majority vs. minority elsewhere. Minority as a term is interestingly enough increasingly misapplied to refer to people who are actively negatively discriminated against. I'm not sure of a better one off the of the top of my head, but I realize the double meaning is confusing. That's how English evolves, for better or for worse.

Basically, this. All of this is ideal, and will never happen. There will never be an "us," and to keep trying to achieve that will just lead to another polarization and cause unnecessary struggle. The best way to an "us" is through unification, with a set of standards that will be applied to everyone. This, too, would be impossible to achieve in real life, however.

I dunno, I think there's reasonable hope. It'll never be all the way fixed, but we can move towards the impossible goal anyways. I mean, discrimination and racism vs. most European immigrants (esp. Irish and German) was standard and seemingly permanent two centuries ago, but it's almost unheard-of now. Even if it's hopeless, though, I couldn't really live with myself if I was complacent and gave up on it. I am well aware that I am utterly incapable of fixing this disastrously broken world, but I don't see that as an excuse for me to stop loving on people in whatever way I can. Sometimes, that means loving on and dealing with people I don't necessarily like. Sometimes, that means striving for unreachable goals. Being well aware of my own incapability is a bit freeing, in that sense. I'd say it's the journey, not the destination, but even that's not really correct. It's the act of striving, and of accepting whatever outcome may come of it. Getting off on a bit of a tangent here, so I'll move on. >.>

Regarding the second part, you are basically agreeing with what I said: America as a whole is like that, with each generation getting worse than the next.

Before smartphones were even invented, it was the corded phone. Before that, the Internet, and before that, the gameboy. Before THAT, the Nintendo Entertainment System. And so on.

Each generation progressively gets worse and more entitled. Hidden costs of "progression"

I disagree, but that well may be a disagreement on the definition of entitlement. I see entitlement as feeling like you are entitled to something above the base minimum of your society. If it's entitlement to anything at all, then your point is valid, and I just disagree on the merit of it. It's not unreasonable to expect a given return on investment - for instance, decent running water or education when you pay taxes for exactly that thing whether you want to or not.

The rise of baseline wealth is not a bad thing. It puts us in a situation of luxury where the vast majority have both luxury (yes, even at the painfully low US minimum wage - relative to much of the world, minimum wage the "first world" is a really solid living) and excess to give away, which is frankly unheard-of in much of human history.