Boards›Player Behavior

Let's Talk About Prisoner's Island... Again.... Again

Hocker·6/6/2017, 5:20:23 AM·6 votes·845 views

I know that the concept of "Prisoner's Island" has floated around the boards and the Riot meetings.

First of all, I want to point out that I have never been the subject of any kind of suspension or ban. This is me thinking about the effectiveness of the punishment.

For those who are not familiar with the term "Prisoner's Island", its basically where toxic players get placed in the radioactive queue-pool of their own kind. They can keep using the account that they put money into...but have it never eligible for redemption. If they are resigned to only playing with toxic people, then they either push-onward or start a new account and reform (or repeat the same mistakes). I've seen my share of toxic individuals. I get punishing them...but if people are going to persist, maybe the more logical path to take would be to isolate those people from the community. There are people who get off on intentionally feeding. There are streamers who do it for money! Maybe just give them a venue to entertain themselves while not harming the main community anymore.

When an account is permabanned, the toxic player is presented with a choice. "Do I stop playing League?" or "Do I make a new account?". If they stop playing league...ok. Great! One less toxic player! If they decide to make a new account...then what does the ban really teach them? To get to a permaban, they have to get hit with a bunch of punishments...so they know that its coming. Maybe they lost an account that they put money into...ok, that hurts. It's money spent that is now rendered useless...but that doesn't prevent them from playing the game and interacting with other players. In fact, if they make a new account and don't change their ways, I see this as worse!

  • They have a fresh account with no infractions. No flags saying that this person is a detriment to the game's culture.
  • They are now in the low levels again, playing with new players and smurfs...affecting the culture of low level accounts.
  • Some fresh player comes in and sees these people raging, and they're like "ok, so that's how I communicate here".
  • Congrats! A new toxic player is born because another rubbed off on them

The current system of permabans just seems to add to the toxicity, from my perspective. If you are going to permaban someone...~~then ban their IP address ~~(yes, I know that this can be worked around, but at least it would be really making them work for it by adding so many re-routs to their signal that the game would lag bad anyway).

Maybe the best way to deal with them is really to just throw them into a pool with each other where they can troll, feed, curse, rage, and disconnect all they like...without harming the people trying to have fun without that stuff.

EDITS: (because there has been a lot of good discussion)

  • Maybe if a player can show restraint in the face of Prisoner's Island, they could be worthy of getting out. They would have to reach certain benchmarks like chatting with no profanity, not leaving games, not int-feeding. I'd also give them a time limit...and if they didn't reach it in that time, then by-by account. I'm thinking along the lines of 3-months for that.
  • IP bans don't really work in the case of college dorms. it would ban an entire group...and in the case of one individual being toxic while others are not, it would hurt otherwise positive players.
  • Riot should start vocally addressing the mentality around toxicity. What are the reasons? What is the motivation? What can be said to start curbing this type of thinking? What kind of toxic player is salvageable and what kind isn't?

45 Comments

AeroWaffle6/6/2017, 7:35:53 AM5 votes

Just a note on the IP address ban bit;

It's not just that IP bans are easy to get around, it's that IP bans also have a chance to cause a lot of collateral damage. Sometimes entire establishments have a single external IP address. For example; college dorms, cafes, and so forth. To ban an IP of someone at a college dorm would mean banning everyone in the dorm.

As for the other bit, I wouldn't mind the perma-baned players in their own separate queue... if there weren't so few of them that it wouldn't make a difference. I can't imagine that a perma-banned player would sit in a queue for an hour waiting for a match instead of creating a new account anyway.

MUSHROOM MIDGET6/6/2017, 5:33:28 AM3 votes

does anyone believe less than 99% of the banned players make a new account? very few quit.

this game is too addicting to just give up on for a little ban. a lot of people have multiple accounts anyway. ban one and they barely notice.

Azure Hamster6/6/2017, 1:59:14 PM1 votes

I don't have Riot's argument about Prisoner's Island to hand, but it's completely correct. It's clear they've thought about it a lot, and It's just not a good idea.

Caitlyn

LostFr0st6/6/2017, 3:35:26 PM1 votes

When they create a "new" account, the servers detect within a few games that they are smurfs and throw them into the smurf queue pile. Legitimate new players (unless duod with a smurf or with a lvl 30 themselves) don't encounter them for long.

Imperial Pandaa6/7/2017, 1:59:13 AM1 votes

{quoted}

I'm actually not aware of the tiers you are talking about? You mean the progression of punishment?

Yes. That is what I was talking about. You couldn't keep them all though unless you rearranged it with Prisoner Island in mind.

My biggest complaint with the concept is why would they reform? They are now in an environment where they can be toxic as a nuclear plant without potentially losing anything of value. Admittedly that is why I lean more towards the bans. I understand that maybe there would be a few who want out, but why are they there to begin with? Many of the toxic flamers I tens to see on the board use the "They started it first." Argument.

By putting them into this new environment with potentially the worse people to try and reform with. Would it truly test their ability to change? Yes, but how many on average do you think would be able to stick with it? After they get out: what happens? Does it restart to square one for the punishment steps or are they still at the doors of the ship?

I can't remember if I asked or if you answered? (am sorry. On phone makes looking back tedious) What ques would this affect? All of them or just a few? If you do all then matchmaking may take more collateral than one would think.

Scary Door6/8/2017, 3:18:14 PM1 votes

If I could upvote this 500 times I would. Couldn't agree with the OP more.

Perma-chat muting is another great tool---but instead of making it a transparent type of scenario where the player is told that they are permanently muted, just do a stealth or ghost mute. So if a player repeatedly abuses the chat privilege, they are muted (although the player doesn't know it) and only their friends can see their chat. Boom! Toxicity solved right there.

Permabanning players is really not the answer, it's too easy to make a new account or buy a fresh level 30 account for $9. It's time to start looking at some better alternatives.

NinjaGuy696/8/2017, 8:46:24 PM1 votes

If you are going to permaban someone...then ban their IP address (yes, I know that this can be worked around, but at least it would be really making them work for it by adding so many re-routs to their signal that the game would lag bad anyway).

I personally believe that Riot really should implement IP bans for accounts that were permabanned. Although methods like IP-spoofing exist to help others get around the system, an IP ban can at least dissuade some permabanned players from simply making a new account and logging back on. Furthermore, it would enforce the fact that Riot takes permabans seriously. If you are permabanned, you should not be allowed to re-enter the community at a whim just by making a new account.

Maybe the best way to deal with them is really to just throw them into a pool with each other where they can troll, feed, curse, rage, and disconnect all they like...without harming the people trying to have fun without that stuff.

No....just no. Even the concept of having a Prisoner's Island would lessen the game's reputation by making it appear that Riot is okay with allowing toxic players to play their game regardless of how negative those players may be.

Kartagia6/8/2017, 10:42:11 PM1 votes

One important question: why there is no chance of redemption? The whole idea of prisoner island is totally useless is there is no chance of redemption. Without redemption, the who idea is totally useless. The system should have chance of redemption.

Hocker6/10/2017, 5:14:36 PM1 votes

{quoted}

I'm really glad you're on the boards and that I crossed paths with you.^^ Your context on this subject from your personal journey is truly invaluable, and I guess I have some reading homework now. Not that I mind :)

What do you figure is the best way to go about actively communicating this? Obviously the player needs to accept that a change is needed themselves, but the words coming from a person who's been through the same thing clearly have more weight than some random Rioter or Player Behaviour team member.

I was thinking along the lines of getting reformed streamers to spearhead the effort (might take a bit of coaxing), but that might be controversial as well. What's your take on that aspect? Would it help or would the toxic players just think they're kissing up to Rito?

Is there another pathway that I'm overlooking?

I think you're right. It's nice having both sides of the coin. There's a lot of meat to your above post that I agree on. I especially resonate with the "defensive vs. everything they say is valid" point. I'm still trying to find the sweet spot (it'll probably take a lifetime and then some) because it's so situational.

If it worked I would have nothing against using it. I just don't think it works.

p.s. I think we've almost reached max chain on the boards, next time I'll probably have to reply on one of the earlier comments.

k, restarting the chain

A person isn't going to change their behavior unless they see some kind of benefit in it for them. Obviously there would be a benefit...but getting them to see is is the first step. There are the helpful hints that Riot uses. Right now they are extremely forgettable. Maybe there is a way to throw some of these words of wisdom in there rather than silly lore things or data on reform. Riot's done those info-graphic style videos in the past. Maybe one about how to mentally handle toxicity would be effective?

Getting reformed streamers to talk about it would be a good move! Hopefully they are big enough to get the message out.

Does fear always work? No. I would also ask about suspensions and permabans...and i'd give the same answer. Certain punishments will resonate with specific people while other punishments wouldn't make a dent. There isn't going to be a one size fits all when it comes to this because there are many types of people and toxicity. I still believe that there are going to be people who just don't respond because trolling league is just how they have fun...and I think the best way to deal with those people will be to stick them in a toxic queue-pool.

As I've said before, if we are talking a level of toxicity that has landed a person in the cross-hairs of getting a permaban, then they are persistent enough to deserve some sort of major action. Some people might be willing to change if they were thrown into that toxic pool once they saw the extreme. I imagine some people reacting to that as "Oh hell no! I don't want to stay here! What do I have to do to get out?!"

There are many paths to solving this

Hocker6/10/2017, 7:56:20 PM1 votes

I have edited the OP to reflect the discussion that has taken place.

Imperial Pandaa6/6/2017, 12:36:32 PM1 votes

Granted this may not be the best argument, but my problem with prisoner island is if it can be abused by trolls and get innocents in it. The comparison that probably weakens the argument is GTA V online. They made it based on rep which you lose for destroying other players property. So if someone is driving around and killing you, you can't retaliate unless you shoot them and leave the car alone. Blowing up the car to kill them gets bad rep and thrown into the bad rep lobby after a time. The reason I bring it up is I didn't see how the island would be implemented. (If I missed it, sorry. Between just waking up and feeling sick I may have missed it.) Does it just replace the permaban step? Before the 14 day ban? Do bans even exist with the system anymore? How is it going to affect que times for non prisoners? Does it affect all ques or just a specific one?